Fasting

Hi there,

I'm doing a special fast in order to cleanse my system before engaging in a routine of 8-12 hours training a day.I've been doing martial arts since I was 15 and I've been serious for about 4 months now. I'm 17 nest month. I intend to keep that up indefinately.
Basically after the fast, which is like a transitional period I'll stay away from alcohol and all unhealthy food and live the "perfect healthy lifestyle", rise at 6, go for a run, you get the picture.

Here is the fast, please give your opinions on whether this is healthy and so on and any advice you may have. Any advice I'd appreciate.

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TWO PREPERATION DAYS:

Day 1: raw veggies and fruit/dried fruit, protein in the from of pached fish.

Day 2: As day one but without the fish. Nuts are allowed.(This the point I'm at now, I just had my last meal b4 the fast in the form of poato, apple and orange juice with nuts and dried fruit.)

THE FAST

4 days only mineral water. No vitamins or minerals etc.

POST FAST

5 days as preperation but lightly cooked veggies allowed. No fried food.
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After the fast I want to live the most healthy diet possible and stay highly active. I'm not Intersted in bulking up but I do want to gain strength as much as poss.
What about the theory of building muscle then ripping it down through long distance running etc. Would the muscles be stronger afterwards?

Anyway there we are, I know it's a bit meticulous and all that but if you have any advice It would be much appreciated. I'll post during the fast if I feel any adverse side effect and again at the end of the whole thing


Humbly,

Ollie

[This message has been edited by thevonandonly (edited 03-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by thevonandonly (edited 03-25-2005).]

Dude, fasting is a bad idea hell i cant even miss one meal!!! Stop copying the ancient chinese and train the modern way! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

If u really wanna fast go ahead but why not just cut out junk food slowly and drink lots of water to clean ur system out? No one really needs to fast for 4 days.

Also, it will result in muscle wastage because if ur body gets no nutrients in the form of food it will burn up muscle not fat!

Just out of interest what is ur training goal (endurance, fat loss, muscle building, etc..) and how much do u weigh?

Hello,
There's nothing to be gained from fasting before engaging in 8-12 hours of training a day.
I would say the opposite is better. Eat plenty of clean food and consume plenty of fluids.
8-12 hours of training everyday seems quite excessive to me. Ever heard of over training? Over training has an adverse affect on you.
I'd advise you do some research before starting your fast and 8-12 hours training each day.
Best of luck! Gary.

[This message has been edited by Garyinjapan (edited 03-26-2005).]

I'm doing the fast basically as a transition kind of thing. Afterwards I'll stay on a health diet all the time.
The training I do is not so intense as to lead to overtraining (i hope) a lot of technique stuff and then the normal things, like strength, flexibility and so on.
The goal is to sort of cleanse my system in a kind of detox thing. I'm on the 1st day now and feel pretty good. Afterwards I'll be able to closley feel the effects certain foods have on me.
I weigh aobut 65kilos (don't know what that is in pounds, if you know the conversion what is it???)

ollie

2.2pounds = 1kg. So u weigh 65x2.2 and I'll let u do the math!

What do u mean by strength training, cos u can overtrain doin 8-12 hours of that a day. I still don't really know what ur training goal is?

Best of luck buddy.

Although you obviously have the drive to train hard, I'd highly advise doing some sports nutrition and training research/education prior to starting your program. You'll realize:

1) Fasting is an old school myth, with no science behind it. Like popeye99 said, just because the ancient Chinese did it, does not make it effective. Alternative health nuts still promote it today, but anyone with knowledge in human physiology will know it's bunk.

2) Training 8-12 hours a day will get you injured, sick, and seriously overtrained. All progress will stop there.

My advice: Educate yourself, train hard, train smart, eat clean, eat often, and rest well.

Basically it cleanses the system.
I've tried it before for two days and with good effects.
I've spent the last two days on raw veggies and today only water and I feel great!
Toxins in the body are released into the bloodstream and come out through the skin, urine etc. The mind is cleared in a drastic fashion, you feel emotionally more stable.
Also for joint problems it helps a lot as the toxins in the joints are removed.
I recommend it a lot but make sure you come it properly, breaking the fast with things like read meat and acohol will mess you up.
I guess my goal is to have a crack at being the best, or at least as good as I'm capable. strength training I do is only really bodyweight stuff like crunches and pushup variations.
Training upto the level will be a gradual process, I'll have to start from the ground up and work up.


ollie

[This message has been edited by thevonandonly (edited 03-26-2005).]

Listen buddy,

Three very well informed martial artists have disagreed with what you are doing and stated that you are going to do harm to your own body. I have just made this number four. If so many people disagree, perhaps you are doing something wrong.

I am almost certain that you are doing is detrimental to not only your training but also your health. There is no point in doing a "transition period" between eating unhealthily to eating healthily. Start eating healthily TODAY. Detox diets and fasts are COMPLETE BULL****. You seriously need to do some more research on what is healthy. Not only that but you are more likely to go back to your bad eating habits *after* a fast than if you just start eating healthily today. The concept of fasting to drain the toxins out of your body is misguided rubbish.

What you are saying about toxins is completely misguided. Toxins in our bodies are constantly being processed by our liver and kidneys. A trace amount leave the body via other pathways. For example, no alcohol will be in your body 48 hours after drinking. Only heavy metals such as lead and mercury stay in our bodies for longer periods of time and those DO NOT leave our bodies during our lifetimes.

In order to become stronger you have to eat correctly and exercise 4 days a week for 1/2 to 1 hours each of those days. Eating right means getting protein, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, water, sugars, fats and oils. YES THAT'S RIGHT, your body NEEDS a certain amount of FAT in order to function correctly. Low body fat can lead to, among other things, STERILITY! You do not want this do you?

If you only drink water for a couple of days, you will be lacking in magnesium and calcuim. As a result, your muscles and nervous system will MALFUNCTION. You will experience what are generally called MUSCLE SPASMS and MUSCLE CRAMPS. This is because calcium is necessary for the process of muscle contraction and magnesium is necessary for the process of muscle relaxation. Lack of protein will decrease your muscle mass, making your strikes and other techniques weaker. Lack of vitamins including Vitamin C can lead to many ailments including Scurvey. Lack of carbohydrates, sugars, fats and oils will make you feel tired and decrease your ability to perform physical activity for a CONSIDERABLE period of time after the fast.

Furthermore, even if you ate correctly before an 18 hour training period, your muscles would be traumatised by the end of the training time. It is HIGLY likely you will injure yourself because you have not prepared physically for the training session and your muscles (especially after your fasting period) are not used to the trauma of such a high level of activity. If you spend several months ACTUALLY TRAINING (instead of fasting) increasing by 2-3 hours each month you could possibly do 18 hours of proper training exercise but only if you were super-fit (and I mean "RUN UP MOUNTAINS" kind of fit).

You are SIGNIFICANTLY better off spending 5 days in a week training 4 hours a day, with a 10-15 minute break between each hour. Even doing this, you negate many of the effects of your training by exerting your muscles without a proper rest period.

More importantly you should NOT have to prepare for a training session beyond some stretching and aerobic warmup. If you have to do something so rediculously difficult just to have ONE SINGLE training session, you cannot possibly train regularly. That is far more important than the extrenuous, dangerous activity you suggest.

The effects of feeling your mind clearing probably have nothing to do with your fast. You are probably inflicting this condition upon yourself, more of a mental control than anything else. Kind of like the placebo effect. Joint problems can only be overcome by light plyometric training with the correct nutrient intake to repair the tendons and ligament around the joint. Red meat is not bad for you if you prepare it correctly and don't over eat. Alcohol in excessive amounts is bad but in small amounts it is not harmful. (Not that I advise drinking)

If you train your techniques 4 DAYS A WEEK you will gain the muscle memory and body strength to be the best you can be. Perhaps in 15 years or so you will start to truly understand your martial art and how BEST to train for it.

READ THIS AND ALL OF ITS LINKS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD: http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000647.html http://www.gurze.com/site12_5_00/abouteating_tenreasons.htm

FINALLY, IF YOU THINK I AM WRONG ASK YOUR DOCTOR. Go on, print this entire thread out. He should confirm everything I am saying.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 03-27-2005).]

I dont have much time for this post and for that I apologize, however, fasting is a definate no no. I have a BS in Applied Nutrition and Fitness Management, plz listen to what everyone is telling you, fasting will be nothing but detrimental. Your depleting stored vitamins/minerals, and w/o many of them your body will not be able to utilize all of its energy (run a google search on Kreb cycle if your curious about more)

maybe vonandonly is beginning his journey towards wisdom. many people have to learn thru trial and error rather then be told by what others think.
if the method of fasting he is describing is inappropriate for his physcial needs then i am sure his body will let him know as his strength and endurance will suffer....
Kel

Hi

I appreciate everone's concern,however I don't think I've communicated myself properly so I apologise.

I'm aware of the effects of fasting, everything thats been said here is relevent.
fasting DOES deplete the energy and it DOES waste away muscles and alter mental function.

When you go on a fast, the body feeds off your own muscles, and in doing so impurities in your body are picked up and removed.
On the first day you feel fine and relaxed, but on the next you feel like you have a terrible hangover. Then, after a while, it goes away and your left feeling fine and more acutely in touch with the effects various foods have on your body and so on. Obviously its different for each person, depending on your life style.
Now I'm off it I'm working slowly up to a high level of trainnig time with a bit of luck, now I only do about 1- 1 and a half hrs a day.
Either way I really appreciate what everyone has said here, so thanks a lot.

Ollie

Hi

Thanks a lot for your concern everyone, I really appreciate it.
However, I still stand by what I've done because allthough I agree entirely with whats been said here, I think that when done properly the benefits can outweigh the disadvantages.
I'm off the fast now, and I don't regret it at all. The effects It had on my body were dramatic, first I felt very calm and relaxed, then on the next day I had a feeling similar to a terrible hangover. On the third ay I felt great so I decided my body had been cleared out and so it was enough. Now its over a week since the fast and yesteray was the first day I had any real energy, and was the first day I trained since before it.
Once I get upto a level from which I'm able to train all day I'll be quite a few months oler than I am now. I have to stress if I trained that much it would be with a normal amount of strength training and running, a good deal of training and the rest simply techniques. This is a LONG PROCESS. I really feel a lot weaker then I did before the fast, but I can acutely feel the difference in toxins in my body. That may sound a little weak but if you've ever gone for a run and afterwards felt terrible, usually after a night out or something then youll know what I mean.
Thanks a lot for what everyone has said here though, I feel honoured.

Ollie

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leo_E_49:
Listen buddy,

Three very well informed martial artists have disagreed with what you are doing and stated that you are going to do harm to your own body. I have just made this number four. If so many people disagree, perhaps you are doing something wrong.

I am almost certain that you are doing is detrimental to not only your training but also your health. There is no point in doing a "transition period" between eating unhealthily to eating healthily. Start eating healthily TODAY. Detox diets and fasts are COMPLETE BULL****. You seriously need to do some more research on what is healthy.
[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 03-27-2005).][/QUOTE]

You are so wrong. Look, you don't understand fasting. Fasting is important for the body. Even if you're a christan, or saint you must take one day out of the week ( three or four ). Eating too much is considered glutny, don't know if I spelled it right. Thev, fasting is healthy, and don't let anyone tell you wrong. Some doctors consider fasting for the body's organs to clean out the toxices. And Leo, if you consider that bull, then that's you. You probably don't have much knowledge of it, that's okay. There are plenty of books on how to fast the right way like drinking water in fasting..You can do that!

Let's not go into religion ok? The forum rules forbid it.

I am perfectly entitled to my own opinion and FURTHERMORE I GAVE SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. I see no reference material from your post.

NAME the doctors who support fasting and give me transcripts of their theses.

I personally believe books on fasting are not in keeping with current medical research. You clearly have no understanding of how the body functions. Are you aware what exactly happens when someone has poor nutrition. Maybe you should go to a third world country (like the ones I live near) and see hungry people there. They get sick because they lack the nutrients provided by healthy food and this same lack of nutrients will certainly affect someone's performance in the martial arts.

I am presenting a valid opinion based on current medical information, you are not.

The hangover feeling was probably caused by dehydration, something which commonly occurs after consuming too much alcohol (alcohol is a diuretic, believe it or not). You should replenish your body's water and nutrients quickly. It is unhealthy to remain dehydrated for long.

Call in a doctor and have him comment on this topic, he will assure you I know what I'm talking about.

I speak from a scientific perspective and you can do whatever you want with your bodies.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 04-06-2005).]

I, in my personal belief system, agree with thevon on this idea. It may not bee "scientifically proven", but since when has martial arts been "scientfic". Martial arts were started by the ancient orientals as a spritual practise, ans I gurantee you that is we were to try and fight their best fighters against ours, they would comprehend and know way more about the arts that we do. Despite the wonders of technology, history is often a much more powerful truthfinder than science in a lot of cases. Maybe I just like the feel of following the creator of the arts ways, but this is just my belief. I am by no means claiming anyone to be right or wrong, I am just stating my opinion. I leave you all in peace!

I'm with Leo on this. Science can cash the cheque it's mouth is writing.

Just because the ancient orientals did it a bazallion years ago doesn't make it right.

Dehydration and electrolyte imbalances may make you feel "enlightened and euphoric". A native american sweat lodge will do the same: hypoxia and dehydration. That'd give anyone "visions". Paint fumes may do the same--but none are healthy [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

There's no science backing fasting--zero, nada, zip, zilch.

Whoops, looks like I posted the same response twice, I did'nt see my reply both times for some reason.
When I was on the fast I drank 5 litres of water a day, fasting for three days without water would be immpossible.
Leo,the people in Third world counties
who are in that state due to -prolonged-lack of adequate nutrition. There is absolutley nothing wrong with fasting as long as you are giving yourself proper nutrition.
Furthermore, the real danger is in coming off the fast, if you consumed things like alcohol or red meat after the fast you would have any number of problems as your body needs to get used to digesting food again.

Ollie


[This message has been edited by thevonandonly (edited 04-07-2005).]

The length of the period during which nutrition is lacking will determine the extent of the effects I described. Whether the lack is prolonged or not, the effect exists. The concept of fasting *and* maintaining a sufficient nutrient intake are paradoxical; unless vitamin and mineral suppliments are taken, even then protein and carbohydrate intake is zero, resulting in a loss of muscle mass.

I am glad to hear you didn't stop your intake of water. You have to understand that in some countries, during the fast people do. (Some even spit out their own saliva rather than swallow it) In that case, I believe your hangover was due to a mineral deficiency, but only a doctor can really tell.

I agree that coming off of a fast your body would have problems digesting anything more than simple foods. Particularly in the case of people who are dehydrated, which you weren't. I'm not sure whether your liver's ability to process alcohol would have been affected by the fast but I would agree about not drinking alcohol.

If this is for your personal belief then say so and I will say no more. But do not pretend that it is supported by scientific evidence nor that it will benefit you in any way other than spiritual, you could give impressionable kids dangerous ideas. Next time you feel like you have to fast, perhaps you should consult a doctor to make sure you are in good health first. Fasting while less than peak fitness could be dangerous.

[This message has been edited by Leo_E_49 (edited 04-07-2005).]