Alternative health

Do you want specific examples or just my opinion? Either could be quite lengthy.

Page

Well, if you aren't adverse to sharing your expertise....your professional opinion.

Thanks.

Ear candling: the mumbo jumbo aside...I am sure that it might have produced relief before anti-biotics. I read an assessment of children's health for the Berkshire (MA) hilltowns around 1917. I was struck by the fact that most, and I mean something like 90% of the children were partially or severely deaf. This was the result of ear infections before antibiotics.

My experience with ear candling really had nothing to due with sucking out bad energy.

It was really more of a safe mechanical effect.

The candles, and they look like cones, burn down and actually suck cerumen(ear wax) out into the bottom of the cone.

It is somewhat unorthodox, and hardly ever used, but much safer than digging in your ear with a Q-tip or pen top or car key or any other odd thing (I'm sure MattJ and Joel will come up with something).

Page

thats an excellent point harlan...it's good to know not only the current practice but the history of it's practice to give a full perspective before dismissing it.

Budoc, thanks for sharing. Anything involving fire seems inherently more dangerous than a swab of cotton....thats just me though.

You rang, Page?

*Joel walks in with bicycle tire pump sticking out of his ear.*

I almost forgot about Chiropractic.

lets start with the subjective and move to the objective.

Did you ever meet anyone, who as a child, wanted to be a Chiropractor? I haven't either.

The profession is filled with guys that couldn't get into Medical School so they tried Dental School. Then Vetinary School. And then (So they could still be addressed as "Doctor") they found that they could be Chiropractors.

Here is the rub. They apply the title of Doctor to the pseudo science of subluxation and the theory that proper alignment can alleveiate disease processes, and sell it(not cheaply) to the general public.

Chiropractic has no standard of care, no randomized prospectives, no treatment thresh-holds. The entire practice is gray and completely subjective.

I had a patient years ago who had some really bad hip and lower back pain. Went to four different chiropractors(recommendations from family and friend) received four complete work-ups, with all the associated bending and popping and four sets of x-rays. The guy also got three different diagnosis. When the pain became unbearable, after 7 or 8 successive chiropractic treatments he came to me. He had diverticulitis When he returned to his Chiropractor (with full relief) and told him he had been treated for diverticulitis, the quack told him that he could have treated him for that. Treated it?? HE DIDN'T EVEN FIND IT!!

Go to a chiropractor,or several with a specific set of problems. Odds are you will get multiple and varying treatment regimens. Without even an accurate diagnosis, you are going to be treated daily/weekly/monthly for the rest of your life!! You break your arm and walk into my ER or any other ER. We know your arm is gonna heal in 8 weeks, barring any co-morbidity.

Many Chiropractors I know advise not immunizing children. I thought these were isolated incidences of malpractice until it happened to a family member of mine and some others that I knew personally. I then realized how wide spread it is.

The theory is that subluxation and manipulation improve the immunity and children do not need to be immunized.

Are there any parents here, anyone, with infants or small children, that would forgo immunization for subluxation/manipulation Didn't think so!

The list goes on and on.

You would do better to have a good family doctor, a physical therapist that can help with occasional mobility issues and a good massage therapist.

Page

Well you are supposed to let a professional do it, not someone like Kintama!

I have to agree with Page on this one. No standardization, no double blind testing to show empirical evidence for efficacy of treatment.

Theory without evidence is just that. But people buy many things on faith. Perhaps in certain cases there is something to a part of Chiopractic, but I sure would like some independent, disinterested, repeatable studies done.

I had gone to one Chiropractor once and he had some vague BS literature describing how his treatment could help with allergies. Now, if there was some way cracking a joint can help me with a hystamine reaction, please explain this in real terms.

-B

It's a fact that Chiropractors are not MD's, nor are they licenced as such. However, they refer to themselves with a 'Dr.' title so it kindof 'innocently' or passively fools people. not sure what the legal loopholes are there. Then again, 'doctor' just means someone has obtained a doctorate...it says nothing about their profession.
2 yrs undergrad. college = Associate
2 yrs undergrad college = Baccalaureate
2 yrs grad college = Master
2+ yrs post grad = Doctor

'doctor' in latin just means 'teacher'....it's not suppossed to mean 'entitled to give medical advice', but many think of that title as meaning just that.

p.s. side note: haven't read this yet, but since it's on topic I'll mention it here...
"Junk Science Judo : Self-Defense against Health Scares and Scams"
by Steven J. Milloy

My sister came down when I was sick with her homeopathy kit. She stuffed me full of different little concoctions!! It tastes terrible and didn't do a darn thing. She also loaded me down with mangosteen and nani juice,also tastes awful and doesn't do anything.It's ashame people have duped her into believing in that garbage. Maybe it didn't work because my house wasn't feng shuei!!

still, it probably felt good to know she cares...got to be worth some placebo effect.
---------------------------------
tidbit:
36% of U.S. adults Use Complementary and Alternative Medicine.
http://nccam.nih.gov/news/2004/052704.htm

Perhaps "mechanical effect" was the wrong choice of words.

I was simply refering to the drawing out of the wax by some means.

No ear candling will not treat your otitis externa/media, or if you have caused some minor trauma by introducing a foreign object into the canal.

It can, however, remove impacted cerumen. And when used by someone that knows what they are doing, there is little risk of actually setting someone on fire. Sure it could happen, but it would be unusual.

This is by no way an endorsement for ear candling. Many OTC products will work as well. I don't prefer ear candling myself, but I have experienced it and it does work on cerumen impaction.

It DOES NOT work on sucking out bad energy!

Page

I acknowledge energy. The body is full of it in various forms. Neurons fire, the heart fires on electrical impulses, sodium/potassium pump, caloric conversion, etc. etc.

It just can't be good or bad.

I guess I should of said "It does not work on sucking out energy. Only cerumen."

IF there was such a thing as bad energy, I guess I would have my fair share. If candling DID suck out BAD energy, I must have more than my fair share, as it left me unchanged. Well except for cleaner ears!

Page

Yeah. We used to do ear candles sometimes when I was younger, and it was a really, really weird experience. Like Page said, it sucks the stuff out, and generally you can hear better afterwards . However, I think we became concerned about the potential health risks, so the days of having a small, flaming tube thrust down my ear were over (I should mention that the flaming end was OUTSIDE my ear. Mom wasn't cruel to me or anything .)

As for chiropractors (sp?), I go to one pretty regularly, and my granddad was one. I know I felt better after my granddad "popped" me, but I think (and this is going to sound weird) he had a natural talent for it. I've been to two other chiropractors since he passed away (including my current one), and one guy was horrible (I felt like a pretzel after I left), and my current guy is really pretty good, but even he hurts sometimes. I don't think they work for everybody, but I know it helps alleviate the overall pain and discomfort I feel from having a messed up back. I think if you have some condition that seems to be helped when you go to your chiropractor, and if the guy doesn't break you and is gentle but effective, then I'd say chiropractors are a good thing. But if the quack is trying to diagnose something that obviously isn't within his realm of healing (the dude who said being adjusted can help with allergies probably was just trying to make an extra buck), and if he hurts too badly, then don't bother with 'em.

The one that sounds REALLY interesting is "psychic surgery." How the crud does that work? And what's that other one? Urine therapy or something? That's just nasty. But I have heard of people using urine to help clear up their acne. And I don't think it works, so you people who might be desperate enough to try it, don't .

Thanks for illuminating my head about ear candling....now I know I'll never try it.
The info I got about 'sucking out energy' came from a skeptics magazine. I don't remember much from the brief article, but physical tests were done and the pressure generated by the candle were not enough to remove anything that you don't need in there. however, as Harlan pointed out, somebody with ear infection/irritation would probably welcome any amount of relief and would be more sensitive to the effects. Personally, I'd visit a eyes,ears,nose and throat MD before an ear candlist 'professional' whos credentials might be merkier than say, a chiropractor.

my vote on this one: At best, it's an outdated treatment for ear irritations. At worst, its another means of losing money to someone selling placebo effects.
Ear candling:
-------------------------------------------------

psychic surgery - This is where the 'surgeon' 'operates' on the victim...err...I mean patient using his bare hands. He reaches in and plucks the tumor right from your body. cool.
Except when a group of scientists in 1975 studied the practice, they unanimously found that the procedure was fraudulent sleight-of-hand magicians tricks. In fact, professional magicians observed the procedure and within minutes could themselves perform the same divine feats of spiritual healing.
ingredients: Animal blood and small organic tissue, magician-like hands, gullible patients with cash.

In march 1984, Andy Kaufman made tabloid headlines by undergoing this procedure...after paying heafty sums of cash, the 'doctor' claimed to have removed all cancerous tissue......Kaufman died of lung cancer 2 months later.

For those who have faith in this procedure, proof is not needed....or heeded.

my vote: This doesn't even have a placebo effect...it's just outright fraud.

psychic surgery:

Another perspective on the cons of chiropactors.

If you need to go to a chiropractor regularly (as many people swear by) this is a fair indication that you have a postural problem either caused by a congenital problem with the spine, or through poor posture/muscle imbalance.
Simply 'popping' things back in line, is a short term fix for a symptom, not an underlying cause.
Medical advice will help manage any long term problem with the spine, any postural related back pain is best treated with relevant exercise and stretching, combined with lifestyle analysis and ergonomic assessment of your workstation (presuming you have a sit down job).
Physiotherapy covers such treatment, and eventualy most people get signed off as recovered/rehabilitated. Chiropractors have repeat custom for years and years- a sure sign that the treatment doesnt really work as a cure.

I'm actually very surprised that chiropracticers aren't cast in a more positive light here. And BuDoc, wow, am I ever surprised at you. I know conventional MDs have differing opinions of Chiropracters, but your responses...

Did you ever meet anyone, who as a child, wanted to be a Chiropractor? I haven't either.

Well, I for one, have met many, and this includes myself. And, I also consider myself a "conventional" medical professional.

The profession is filled with guys that couldn't get into Medical School so they tried Dental School. Then Vetinary School. And then (So they could still be addressed as "Doctor") they found that they could be Chiropractors.

This is such an unprofessionally negative, dead wrong assumption. No more needs to be said on that.

Now, onto the rest....I can say with all honesty that I don't know if chiropracters as a whole have a standard governing body regarding treatment modalities and patient care; I would hope they do. I'll ask my chiro next time I'm in.

Opinions are largely based on personal experience--BuDoc, you've obviously had some bad experiences with chiropracters. And that's bound to happen. But blatently labeling the whole profession as "quacks"?

There's a few ER docs I know that I wouldn't let treat a dead cat for fear of doing more harm. I have watched, with great surprise, as some of the worst emergency medicine I had ever seen being practiced on unknowing patients unravel before my eyes.

I would bet you too have seen some physicians practice some questionable medicine. But did that make you question emergency medicine as a whole?

Now, does this make all ER physicians crackpots? Nope.

Do all ER physicians go to fly-by-night schools to get their degrees? Nope

Would my assumption that all Er physicians have no clue, are dangerous to patients, and are generally harmful care practitioners be dead wrong? Yes.

Ok....still with me? Good. There's a bit more.

Now you can safely assume that I've had postive results from seeing a chiropracter.

In fact, I had immeditate relief from a back injury sustained at work; the conventional tx of muscle relaxants and anti-inflammatories prescribed by an emergency physician hadn't done much except dull my senses and slur my speech.

I was reluctant to go to a chiropracter because what I had heard..."go once, you'll always go"...."they get their degree froma crackerjack box"...."they do more harm the good"... etc etc.

Long story short, I had immediate relief.

Have I gone back since? Let me answer that by asking "Do martial artists get injuried?" My chiro was a godsend when I injured my hamstring, shoulder, back, etc etc.

But do I HAVE to go, now that I've started treatment? Will I ALWAYS have to go?

Man, I don't know where this weird rumor ever started. Probably not by someone being treated by a chiro. In my case, all of my injuries have been acute, so the treatment length has been shorter. Yes, there's mutliple treatment involved. I'm not going to explain the "why", because that's not what this thread is about.

I know there was a study done of the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment in the relief of back pain just a few years back...I don't have it in front of me, or the exact details, but it compared a few different treatments, including rx medication, PT, chiro, and massage. Chiro came out on top as the most effective.

Yes, yes I know, it's only one study.

Ok, points I DO agree with you on:

I would never, EVER assume that a chiropracter could replace childhood immunizations. That is just plain bad patient care.

I also would never assume that a chiropracter could, or should treat any medical condition like allergies, diverticulitis, or angina (I did have a chirporacter tell me he could treat this once. I promptly left).

Yes, there are some "quacks" out there making insane claims. The one chiro I saw that made the claim about treating angina was about 70 years old, and his degree looked like it was from the 1950s. As a contrast....

....the chiro I see today is in her late 20s. She graduated in 2002, and was a former university hockey player. She specializes in treating athletes, and is certified in Active Release Therapy.

And never once has she mentioned energy pathways, enhanced immunity, feng shui, or draining sinus cavities.

She's also never even threatened to stick a burning candle into my ear. God Forbid.

If this post seems a bit disjointed, it may very well be; I've been writing it piece by piece as I run around the house this morning.


And, on that note, I'll let it stand as is.

I suffered with knee pain for 6 years from the age of 11. I went to the GP who basically told me if I still had it in a years time then it's not growing pains like he diagnosed. I went for x-rays, had an MRI scan, had physio, went to see a podiatrist and finally went to see a knee specialist. None of them could help me. This took 3.5 years. I got quite depressed as I was really into sports and played in teams but my knees stopped me most of the time. I couldn't go out with my friends much and ended up plonked on the sofa with a bag of frozen peas strapped to my knees.

My mum then mentioned reflexology which she had been told about by a friend and at first, I was very skeptical. How can someone rubbing my feet actually help my knees? After a month, I noticed a huge change. The swelling went down, they didn't hurt as much but the pain hadn't gone completely. I had reflexology sessions twice a week for about 2 months, then 1 a week. After a year, the problem had almost dissappeared completely. Only when I had been walking for long periods there'd be a chance that my knees would play up again. The last time I had reflexology was about 2 years ago and now I go to the gym twice a week and aikido twice a week and my knees don't give me any bother.

There are obviously the fruadsters out there which are no good, but there are a few gems and in my case, she really sorted me out where our orthodox methods couldn't.

I found a definition of reflexology for this thread:

Reflexology is a science that deals with the principle that there are reflex areas in the feet and hands which correspond to all of the glands, organs and parts of the body.

Stimulating these reflexes properly can help many health problems in a natural way, a type of preventative maintenance. Reflexology is a serious advance in the health field and should not be confused with massage. When we talk about 'stimulating' reflexes on the feet and hands, we are actually rousing energy that produces a reaction in a specific organ or gland.

The idea behind reflexology is not new - in fact, it was practiced as early as 2330 B.C., by the Egyptian culture. Reflexology as we know it today was first researched and developed by Eunice Ingham, the pioneer in this field and founder of the International Institute of Reflexology®. Her book on the subject, "Stories the Feet Can Tell/Have Told Thru Reflexology", was first published in 1938 and is still available today through the International Institute.

on Reflexology:
"One reason foot massage may be so pleasurable and is associated with significant improvement in mood is that the area of the brain that connects to the foot is adjacent to the area that connects to the genitals. There may be some neuronal overlapping."

"double-blind test w/study"
Shows that Reflexology has same results as massage....basically, it makes you feel good.
http://www.ncahf.org/articles/o-r/reflexology.html

nothing wrong with that...although, I bet a 'reflexologist' in an office gets paid waaaay more than a foot massage at a mall.

Lets clear the air with this.

There are over 1000 people registered here counting all of the lurkers.

At least one of them is going to have a supposed healing effect to everything on the list.

That does not make it science. It does not make it good medicine.

People want to belive that something can make them better when all else has failed.

I once saw a healthcare worker on the Ivory coast who had run out of medication, and was in real dire straits/desperation mode. Out of that desperation as a palliative measure, he gave a group of very sick people tic-tacs

Guess what??? about a third of the group got better in 36 hours. Would they have gotten better any way?? Was it something else that they were given around the same time?? Hogwash!! It was the tic-tacs that made them better. Please don't tell this to US drug companies! It would put all that R&D in the toilet

Page

good points Doc.
out of curiosity, just so we know the bounds we are working in this thread: let me ask this to all the readers....has anyone ever received sucessful treatment or surgery from being the subject of an alien abduction?

So you're telling me that the swelling in my knees, the fact that I couldn't walk properly because of the pain which I had for aproximately 3-4 years was because of the type of mood I was in? Blimey, I never knew that if I was given a massage to make me feel good could possibly do all that!

Believe me I was very skeptical but when I began to see the results, I had to admit that it was working. In one session, she told me to go to the doctors because she felt that there was something not quite right with my right kidney. I went and had various tests and an ultrasound and sure enough I had a kidney stone. I don't think people can be that specific purely from just '"massaging" my feet.

I believe certain alternative therapies can be of benefit but don't believe that they can replace orthodox medicine. Even in cases where alot of ailments are all in the mind, if people feel better, what's the harm? As long as they're not being ripped off and no-one is getting hurt I don't see a problem.

no problems here, mate.
I think the point was, even if there is 1 out of 1,000 with experiences such as yourself, it does not necessarily make it science or a cure. Does it make it any less real for you knowing the results you had are not reproducable? Of course not. but just keep an open mind to the possibility your cure might have been attributed to something else.
I had this insect bite that wouldn't go away...I was pretty sure it was a spider bite. I was just putting antibiotic cream on it and a bandage so I wouldn't scratch it. After about a month of no change in size, color or hardness, I finally made an appointment to see my Doctor. The appointment was for 2 weeks later since I was scheduled for a physical anyway. A couple of days after making the appointment, the light red bump got pale in color and smaller in size. by the time of my physical it was almost completely gone and healed.
Did the phone-call to the Doctor's office cure it?

sometimes it's just chance timing. If the appointment was made for the day that I called, I'd now be thinking my Dr. is a miracle worker! using gambling odds, the timing is going to be just right to appear as if something wonderful has happened.
Seeing a shooting star at the moment you realize a solution to a problem....picking up the phone to call someone and they are already on the line calling you...having a similar dream as someone else....etc

definitely cool experiences, and I wouldn't take them away from anybody...just don't try to convince me it's magic or a 'sign'.

Whether or not any of the therapies work is not as interesting to me as the frame of mind that believes and the 'system'. I think that there are many shamanic and folk practices that have been adopted/adapted by New Agers...practices taken out of context and used without any sound studies.

I have just learned about Tibetian Medicine...which is firmly attached to the religious and worldview of the Tibetians. I'll be taking a 2 day workshop this weekend (as a sceptic, I guess I'll be a spy) on healing therapies in the Bon tradition. Maybe I'll have something interesting to contribute afterwards.

"Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time."
by Michael Shermer

Sounds interesting, harlan, I'd like to hear what you find out there.

Also, I apologize to you, Chanters, for misreading your post.

No probs JoelM!

Yeah you're right... it was purely coincidental?!

So the the thread you set up, querying alternative therapies/treatment has now led you to question whether orthodox medicine actually works. If I suffer with a cold and the doctor gives me medication and my cold clears within 2 days is that a result of orthodox medicine or coincidence? If I sprain my ankle and went to the doctors for painkillers and within 1-2days I'm fine is that a result of taking the painkillers or could my ankle have healed naturally?

To summarise, you started out questioning alternative therapies/treatments but the questions and arguments you raise also apply to orthodox medicine.

Your cold and your sprained ankle will both be cured, whether you see a doctor or not.

What is the point?

Page

P.S. It couldn't hurt to rub a chicken bone on that ankle!

bad examples. Cold medicine and pain killers have never been claimed as cures....they are drugs to make you feel better.

but I understand what you are saying. and yes, I do think coincidence happens in western medicine as well. The difference being an important distinction: Science reports on the successes of reproducable results. Psuedo-Science reports on all the rest.

I started the thread hoping we could hash out which of the alternative medicine practices are fraud, psuedo-science, and which are worth considering.

If you'd like to start a thread about which western medical sciences are fraudulant, be my guest. To be equally critical, I'd guess that there are a few legitimate MD's prescribing far too many medications in an effort to 'push' products like an Avon lady marketing a new line of mascara.

very hard to prove, much less quantify. just my hunch considering how much drug companies rake in each year.

anyway, back to alternative medicine:
http://www.csicop.org/si/9709/beyer.html

I have ear problems and they actually cleared up for a few days after I had a jar of warm wood ash rolled around my head by an elderly lady in east Poland (I kid thee not!)

glad things eventually turned out ok.

The whole point is, it saves money to be sceptical and informed when it comes to alternative practices. Since 'Alternatice health' is a categorical term that includes practices like 'spiritual surgery' and such, then any other practices falling under the umbrella of 'alternative' would be wise to investigate a bit (without being clouded by your emotions) before investing a whole lotta hope...and money.

It cost me £10 ($7.50 ish) per session which lasted 45mins to 1 hour. If I stayed on the orthodox route prescriptions for medication £6 ($4) and I would spend £5 on average on painkillers per week before I went onto have reflexology. It was money well spent in my opinion.

I do agree with you with regards to being aware of alternative therapies because there are fraudsters out there. I went to a Chinese herbalist once who had been recommended by a friend. It cost £45 for a consultaion and then £25 for a bag of I don't know what which I was supposed to mix with hot water (tasted rank! ) After 1 week I felt no different and my condition hadn't improved at all. Needless to say I didn't return for the further 3 weeks which he recommended I do to complete the 'treatment'. I'm not saying he was a fraudster but his treatment didn't work for me or my bank account!

It's good to have a certain level of skepicism and to be rational when concerned with any treatment whether alternative or orthodox.

Thanks for the interesting and thought-provoking thread Ed!

hey, not so fast...the thread aint over. we haven't visted a chelation therapy center yet.

here is what a potential patient sees being presented as 'healthy living':
http://www.manhattanadvancedmedicine.com/chelation.htm
http://www.paracelsusclinic.com/chelation3.asp

whoa, scarry stuff...sounds like we are gonna die if we don't get this taken care of...code orange, people. get out the check-books cuz insurance won't cover this one.
looks legit though, right? shows a pic of a big building and they are in NYC, so what they say on their website has got to be true...{clears throat}

here is what an informed potential non-patient sees:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3000843
you get the idea...but just in case your hungry for more:
http://www.drcranton.com/chelation/carter.htm

now, if you would, please go back and re-read the text closely that claims the 85% success rate...not only do we now realize the tests were all conducted by sellers of the treatment, but they managed to slip in the words "Informal trials" - when did they do that, and what is the difference to 'formal testing'? and why did they have to qualify the success rate with a 'on the order of' *(see note)? Just when we were paying the least amount of attention (our minds focus on the % figure not where the figure comes from...just like important partisan bills that are passed during Thanksgiving, when everyone has the game on. lol).

Now you see whats happening...they didn't lie, they just cleverly worded it to give the appearence of the truth that you'd like to believe.

I'm not saying politicians ...I mean... physicians...damn, I meant 'doctors' (always get those Dr. & M.D. terms confused) are dishonest...they sometimes just provide 'Alternate Truths'.

congrats. you are now a skepdic like me. here is your prize: information.
http://www.skepdic.com/

enjoy.

footnote:
*'on the order of' means "approximated between the lower magnitude and the higher magnitude." Magnitude is measured in powers of 10. In the case of percentages, saying 'on the order of' means anywhere between 0-100. thats why nobody says it that way with %. BUT, {sigh} they wouldn't be wrong for saying 'on the order of 85%' even if they had actual formal double-blind tests from unvested interests with a success rate of 0%. nice, huh?

Man, I was just starting to get my blood pressure back under control, and you come out with this BS.

Your gonna put me in an early grave!!

Page

Excellent links, Ed!
I was impressed by the skepdic link and the description on chiros.

Have to admit, I didn't read what they had on Chiro until you pointed it out...the write-up seemed a great effort to be fair. thats the best I've read on the subject showing both sides of the Chiro argument.

good eye, Mike.

Regarding chiropractors and allergy treatments, they may have been referring to a practice called NAET (N...the name of the founder, a long east Indian name; A -- allergy; E -- easing; T -- Treatment).

I have a small son with fatal food allergies and I can tell you I am the LAST person to experiment with his allergies. I avoid things so scrupulously that he is severely restricted with many things he eats.

However, I did find the NAET to be helpful -- in a rather accidental manner.

When he was one year old he was hospitalized when his dad gave him one tiny shred of cheese. By the time he was almost two his milk allergy was so severe that his dad could eat his cereal, get a drop of milk on his mustache, wipe it off, kiss Chris's face half an hour later and Chris' cheek would immediately erupt into a massive welt. The allergist, who he had seen the year before, re-tested him at 22 months and told us the milk allergy was so severe that he will be anaphylactic with it. He said that since the allergy worsened so early in life that it will only get worse.

Needless to say this was a virtual death sentence for my son, as every processed food has some sort of milk or milk product in it, including casein, whey, and sodium caseinate. (These were to be avoided also!) I decided he had nothing to lose and I went to a chiropractor whose application of NAET has met with great success according to the people who have been to him.

After performing the treatment the chiropractor said to try milk on the skin first, then the lip if there is no reaction(this is the same way the allergist suggests we try an allergy food). However, I was too afraid and didn't try it.

I took him back a second time a week later for a checkup and another treatment. I still was too afraid to try it; I just hoped the treatment may have made him safe.

Then came the test.

Two weeks after his last treatment my not-yet-two-year-old son was at playgroup with me and believe me, I spoke at great length, repeatedly, about his allergies. When snack time rolled around I pointed to some cupcakes topped with whipped cream and made it clear he can't have them. I stepped into the kitchen for a minute or two to pick up something else for him to eat, came out of the kitchen, and...

Some schmuck had given him one of those cupcakes. Despite all I had made clear to everyone, obviously they were too busy talking about Dr. Phil to pay attention. He had sucked off most of the whipping cream and had started eating the cake. Yes, that's possible within a minute or two.

I nearly had a heart attack, watched him closely for about ten minutes, and when it seemed safe to run home with him (just across the field, not very far) I picked him up, ran home with him and followed him around the house with his Epi pen for twelve hours.

He didn't have a single reaction. Not a wheeze, not a sneeze, not a fart, not a hive, nothing. And yes, this was real whipping cream. I saw the container in the kitchen. He was too small to be affected by a delayed placebo effect.

So, for the next week I tried putting drops of milk on his cheek and lip (still too freaked out to feed it to him!). There was no reaction. After ten days he had a mild reaction, so I took him back to the chiro, had another treatment and that was that. I still avoided milk but I no longer felt as though I was living in a minefield.

At his third birthday he went to the allergist again and in addition to the skin tests the doc ordered blood tests for milk and peanut allergy. He said the blood tests were a better indicator of potential reaction. The result? He has an 80% chance of a mild reaction if he has a "fair quantity" (however that much is) of either one. He may have outgrown the allergy by age three, but he certainly did not outgrow it between the time of his two-year test and the cupcake.

This same chiro cured my migraines with Active Release Technique.

He also helped a range of symptoms that had my doctor puzzled by suggesting I take magnesium. It worked great.

Another chiro suggested I had hypoglycemia, without me even mentioning any symptoms. He said he picked it up from my energy field. Several years of symptoms and tests and doctors, and this guy hit it bang on. A change of diet and I was much better.

I trust my family doctor and pediatrician, and allergist, but if medical science cannot help me I will look elsewhere. If a treatment is non-invasive and you are not being promised any miracles (none of the above professionals made any promises, only suggestions) then why not?

A.

Avalon, just because a treatment is non - invasive ie no operations, procedures, needles etc does not mean that it is harmless so there may well be a "big deal" You're putting something into your body that may or may not have been stringently tested for side effects and sometimes not for a clear reason eg using magnesium for a mixture of symptoms.Yep, it may have helped your symptoms but there was no diagnosis and therefore no rationale to stick a supplement into your body. I have no problem with people using alternative therepies (in most cases) but you all need to be aware that just because they're alternative, does not mean that they are all safe, well tested and that you are taking them without risk. Having done a detailed literature review on this subject for a presentation to a group of Paediatric Allergists (I am a Paediatrician) I too can give you lots of stories, but instead on bad outcomes (including death) of various alternative therapie. And please let your doctors know cause they may inadvertantly prescribe something that interacts with what you're taking if they don't know. Also be aware - that in Australia at least - if you have a seriously bad outcome as a result of an alternative treatment, you cannot take legal action because you have "chosen" to use it instead of conventional medicine.

I am very happy to hear that your son is doing well. That is the single most important thing.

The rest of your post simply stikes me as absurd on several levels.

I would ask about a few of the most glaring examples.

What exactly was the method(s) used by this chiropractor to "cure" your son? I am not understanding how spinal manipulation of an infant can help to treat an allergic response.

How was your chiropractor able to come to a diagnosis of hypoglycemia by examining your "energy field"

Given the variables in the differential diagnosis, detecting hypoglycemia is an incredibly easy thing to do. It is as commonly checked as BP,temp,pulse, and respirations. It is considered one of the primary assessments when dealing with an unknown affliction. I find it incredible that you had aan affliction for years and no allopathic physician ever found hypoglycemia.

And to draw on your advice from another thread(Immune system), The placement of PET (tubes in childrens ears) is one of the simplest, safest, quickest procedures in all of medicine. It literally takes less than 5 minutes, can be accomplished with local anathesia in the form of a drop of carbolic acid to "numb" the tympanic membrane, can be performed while the child lays on a regular bed or even sits in a chair. In the ENT's office they can watch the procedur on TV, while the doctor shows them the magnified TM(it looks like a tea saucer)

Your sensationalist depiction of these events, does not really lend creedance to the idea of alternative medicine.

Page

srv -- I have never been a fan of supplements and I know many people who overdose on them, on the advice of naturopaths or "nutritional doctors". In regard to the magnesium, I did approach my family doc with this information -- like I said, I do respect him -- and he said that yes, it can be helpful for women. He went on to detail exactly why. He cannot really offer suggestions for supplementation unless blood tests reveal a deficiency but he was glad it worked for me and said that as long as I didn't exceed the RDA, that there would be no safety concerns.

A.

BuDoc -- I didn't expect my post to be well-received but you are making assumptions about me that are incorrect. You assessed my "depiction of these events" as "sensationalistic", without any assumption that I may be portraying events as they happened. You are in America, correct? I am not. My doctor, who is known to be an excellent doctor in the industry (I know various lab techs, physiotherapists and specialists who speak highly of him), was the one who said the children need to go under general anesthetic for tubes and that the specialists are still reluctant to do them. You do it differently there? Awesome! Your procedure sounds much safer. This must be why so many Canadians go to the US for procedures. You are known for superior care in a number of different medical fields. There are some incredible doctors here also, but it is known that the US pays considerably more and newspapers often have articles lamenting the "brain drain" from our medical fields to the US because of this.

NAET is Google-able, but to save you the effort I will tell you that it does not involve spinal manipulation but rather a treatment taken from TCM. They use acupuncture, or in the case of small children or squeamish folks, acupressure. Sometimes spinal manipulation is suggested but this is not the basis of the procedure. How does it work? On the same principles as acupuncture, which are not valid in western medicine but which have been in use for a long time in China. I did go to the allergist soon after and explained what happened, and he had the same response to the treatment that you did. I asked him to explain why Chris didn't react to the allergen and he just said, "That's just nonsense". This was not helpful in aiding my understanding.

How was the chiropractor able to assess hypoglycemia by viewing my energy field? Since this whole concept cannot be scientifically explained or proven there is no reply that I could possibly give. This is what he said, and since he gave me a correct answer where none could before, I don't see any reason for me to question him.

Why did the allopathic doctors miss hypoglycemia? The family doc I have now would likely pick it up -- he's very thorough. The one I had before was not. I had the whole battery of blood and urine tests, brain scans, inner ear testing, you name it, all on my request. Why didn't they pick it up? You'd have to ask them. If it's as easy as you say -- and your answer makes sense -- then I can't imagine why not. I'm not a doctor and am not qualified to answer that.

I understand your position and skepticism. I know many people who avoid doctors like the plague and who will grasp upon ANY alternative treatment and who will believe any nonsense coming from that field. There is much quackery out there and many people who would go for it. Since I don't post very often you don't know me at all and it would be easy to assume I am one of "those" types based on a couple of posts. (oh, and by the way, the post about Cold FX was not anti-medical. My own doctor uses it every day and many doctors across Canada recommend it.)

However, despite the numerous setbacks I have had with the medical profession (I won't go into all of them here...) I still have respect for the doctors and nurses who have worked with me and my family. Any health problem I have, or my family has, always begins with a visit to the doctor. I will take medications and give them to my family if they are necessary and helpful. For example, me and my youngest son take inhaled steroids for our asthma. This is a real alternative no-no, but I do what I think is best and a proven medication that helps us breathe is best.

These alternative paths were pursued when I couldn't find answers the medical way. When I am searching for answers the medical way I leave no stone unturned. If nothing turns up, I look elsewhere. If I seem flaky, sensationalistic, overemotional, uneducated or anything else; well, that's the limitations of internet forums and the written word. The pursuit of alternative help is not necessarily a lapse in logic but rather a search for help where there seems to be none.

A.

bump

Health care in the oooold days:

http://www.americanrevolution.org/medicine.html

Well I made a thread about hypnosis recently and it was locked.. oh well.