Kawakami Gensai

The best man of swords or not. He was 1 of 4 hitokiri...a manslayer of the edo period.

Uh, Mushasi survived 60 or so duels plus at least one MAJOR pitched battle--think thosuands of guys fighting all over the place

Plus, "manslayer" was never really used outside Japanese anime.

Pretty sure that many other excellent swordsmen exsisted before and after Gensai.

Whom was the "best?" not sure that could ever be answered.

"The best" depending on whom you ask, and is argued by several teachers of note, is not the guy that killed the most people, but the man whom lived the best life.

The founder of the Katori ryu, maintained that "best" in a manner of speaking was the guy who lived long enough to pass his style on to history.

Several Yagyus maintained that the "best" was the guy that could accomplish his goals WITHOUT killing--although when pressed they were very good killers indeed.

Not sure what effective difference it makes today about the killing skills of a bunch of guys who died hundrads of years ago.

Why does it matter?

I am Just asking for your thoughts I just think the batousi is the best.

gensai is the most skilled swordsman. he created 5 new styles and musashi is nothing gensai survived the Boshin war. he and the other three hitokiris single handedly cut down 1000 shinsengumi and gensai took off the shoguns head personally

Thought about responding, then thought better of it.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-02-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by battousaisupreme:
gensai is the most skilled swordsman. he created 5 new styles and musashi is nothing gensai survived the Boshin war. he and the other three hitokiris single handedly cut down 1000 shinsengumi and gensai took off the shoguns head personally[/QUOTE]

I like seeing that people study stuff before opening there mouths your Kool ulike others on this site!!!

Yes, you are so learned, you two *snicker*.

What are your sources for your information? From what I know, only the assassination of Sakuma Shouzan was documented, and while it's believed that he did others, we have no records.

He killed 1000 shinsengumi? Where did you see that? With the 3 other Hitokiri? I haven't heard of them being involved with the Shinsen gumi, I see no reference to that in the japanese wikipedia. Do you know who the other 3 Hitokiri are?

He created 5 styles? Again, where did you read that? What styles?

I've seen absolutely nothing about him cutting off the shogun's head. He did, however, get executed.

You certainly seem to know a hell of a lot that's not common knowledge, and you assert those facts quite forcefully. However, you may find that you won't be believed unless you name your sources. And no, rurouni kenshin and related stuff don't count as historical sources.

Trunks, the fact that this guy agrees with you doesn't mean he knows much. If you think only people who agree with you are cool, you'll surround yourself with yes-men and never learn anything, because you're not willing to consider you might be wrong. The "others" on this site have dozens of years of experience in the Japanese Sword Arts - you discard their opinions much too lightly, and seem to have a disproportionate belief in your "facts".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by splice:
Yes, you are so learned, you two *snicker*.

What are your sources for your information? From what I know, only the assassination of Sakuma Shouzan was documented, and while it's believed that he did others, we have no records.

He killed 1000 shinsengumi? Where did you see that? With the 3 other Hitokiri? I haven't heard of them being involved with the Shinsen gumi, I see no reference to that in the japanese wikipedia. Do you know who the other 3 Hitokiri are?

He created 5 styles? Again, where did you read that? What styles?

I've seen absolutely nothing about him cutting off the shogun's head. He did, however, get executed.

You certainly seem to know a hell of a lot that's not common knowledge, and you assert those facts quite forcefully. However, you may find that you won't be believed unless you name your sources. And no, rurouni kenshin and related stuff don't count as historical sources.

Trunks, the fact that this guy agrees with you doesn't mean he knows much. If you think only people who agree with you are cool, you'll surround yourself with yes-men and never learn anything, because you're not willing to consider you might be wrong. The "others" on this site have dozens of years of experience in the Japanese Sword Arts - you discard their opinions much too lightly, and seem to have a disproportionate belief in your "facts".[/QUOTE]

If you type in his name on google.com then you should have all the info right there.

And I am not afraid of being wrong i am most of the time. But I am not with this guy. I have study the edo period and him over and over again. I don't care if people agree with me or hate me for what I say and do. If people want to hate they will just help bring what they dispise most. My knowing of the japan histoy is very big though am am from the NH US I love there history and the stuff that happend around there times like the killings of the 1000 shinsengumi with the 4 hitokiri's of the edo time.

Google is no historical record. Either lay out clearly where you learned your "facts", or else no one will take you seriously, except fanboys with the same opinion as yours.

Again, tell me where you have read of "the killings of the 1000 shinsengumi with the 4 hitokiri's of the edo time". When did it happen? Where?

If your "knowing of the japanese history is very big", you surely have a number of references. Google is no provider of divine knowledge, it's a search engine. You can find whatever you want to support any kind of opinion there. Try again.

Trunk

No, I am quite sure that you are not "afraid of being wrong"

You have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by splice:
Yes, you are so learned, you two *snicker*.

What are your sources for your information? From what I know, only the assassination of Sakuma Shouzan was documented, and while it's believed that he did others, we have no records.

He killed 1000 shinsengumi? Where did you see that? With the 3 other Hitokiri? I haven't heard of them being involved with the Shinsen gumi, I see no reference to that in the japanese wikipedia. Do you know who the other 3 Hitokiri are?

He created 5 styles? Again, where did you read that? What styles?

I've seen absolutely nothing about him cutting off the shogun's head. He did, however, get executed.

You certainly seem to know a hell of a lot that's not common knowledge, and you assert those facts quite forcefully. However, you may find that you won't be believed unless you name your sources. And no, rurouni kenshin and related stuff don't count as historical sources.

Trunks, the fact that this guy agrees with you doesn't mean he knows much. If you think only people who agree with you are cool, you'll surround yourself with yes-men and never learn anything, because you're not willing to consider you might be wrong. The "others" on this site have dozens of years of experience in the Japanese Sword Arts - you discard their opinions much too lightly, and seem to have a disproportionate belief in your "facts".[/QUOTE]

heres a web with some info on Hitokiris http://www.answers.com/topic/kawakami-gensai

As has been mentioned before, wikipedia hardly qualifies as a reliable source of information. Anyone can edit the information there. Besides the article does not support many of your claims, at least not as of the time I wrote this. The information could be different by the time someone else checks it.

If you want us to believe your claims you're gonna have to do better than this. For all we know, you wrote the article.

Actually, just to get the ball rolling on these ridiculous assertions...

Which shogun did Hitokiri Gensai behead? Tokugawa Iemochi/Yoshitomi, who died of an illness in 1866, or Tokugawa Keiki/Yoshinobu, who died in 1913, 41 years after the execution of Kawakami Gensai? The two other shoguns that reigned during Kawakami's lifetime were Tokugawa Iesada and Tokugawa Ieyoshi, and both died of illnesses.

On preview: I can accept what's written in that wikipedia article. However, none of it refers to the 1000 shinsengumi that were supposedly killed by the 4 hitokiri, the 5 styles he's supposed to have created, or the beheading of the shogun. Try again.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by splice:
Actually, just to get the ball rolling on these ridiculous assertions...

Which shogun did Hitokiri Gensai behead? Tokugawa Iemochi/Yoshitomi, who died of an illness in 1866, or Tokugawa Keiki/Yoshinobu, who died in 1913, 41 years after the execution of Kawakami Gensai? The two other shoguns that reigned during Kawakami's lifetime were Tokugawa Iesada and Tokugawa Ieyoshi, and both died of illnesses.

On preview: I can accept what's written in that wikipedia article. However, none of it refers to the 1000 shinsengumi that were supposedly killed by the 4 hitokiri, the 5 styles he's supposed to have created, or the beheading of the shogun. Try again.[/QUOTE]

I don't belive he created the 5 styles the other guy said that. read first speack second.

And anyway the stuff i study is the edo period itself not the people in it.

Trunk

"anyway the stuff I study is the edo period itself,not the people in it."

Huh???

You can study "the edo period itself?"

Yeah, I majored in "1664" with a a minor in "1776" and special concentration in "1888."

Pretty soon I will be working on a Masters in "1920"



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-02-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trunkssun:
Originally posted by battousaisupreme:
gensai is the most skilled swordsman. he created 5 new styles and musashi is nothing gensai survived the Boshin war. he and the other three hitokiris single handedly cut down 1000 shinsengumi and gensai took off the shoguns head personally



I like seeing that people study stuff before opening there mouths your Kool ulike others on this site!!!
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trunkssun:
I don't belive he created the 5 styles the other guy said that. read first speack second.[/QUOTE]

Read your own comment. You singled him out as being cool for studying stuff before opening his mouth, but when he ends up being wrong, you don't believe him and imply that I misread you? Ridiculous.

And before you go off on how "you people think you're so smart, I despise people like that", consider this: on one side you have forum regulars with years of experience in Japanese Sword Arts and associated things (history, etc.), on the other you have a new person to the board. The regulars disagree with the new person on a number of things. Now, which is more likely:

- The new person is wrong on a number of things and should learn from those who have more knowledge and experience than him to better himself.

Or

- All the regulars are wrong, and the new person knows better than all of them, nay, is the very fount of all knowledge.

I think you ought to think about that for a bit. Being young, inexperienced or plain wrong about some things is no crime. Being unwilling to learn and lashing out at those who correct you is not a crime either, but is certainly no way to learn anything.

[This message has been edited by splice (edited 03-02-2005).]

[This message has been edited by splice (edited 03-02-2005).]

It is Common knowledge" that gensai and the other imperialists were enemies of the shinsengumi and i made a mistake it was a shogun follow up ex.relatives and there were 3 other "high" hitokiris with gensai

I have studied gensai for 25 years so yes the "new comer" is correct and many survivng shinsengumi recorded on scrolls of this assualt which few can see including me i majored in antique restoration and military history and minored in forgery identification so i would know if they were forges

How would you identify a forged Japanese scroll?

If you are correct then there should be some academic proof to back up your claims. Feel free to name at least one source that can be independently verified.

Batto

Maybe you could kick me the name of the University that offers a "minor in forgery identification?"

Well????

All right, a simple one: Who were the other three hitokiri? What do you know of them?

I don't intend to keep posting in this thread until some kind of answer to the questions asked is given. Saying "I've been studying this for 25 years and it's all in scrolls that you can't see" won't cut it, sorry. If that's all you have to say, well, I have secret scrolls here that say the exact opposite of what you say, but you can't see them either. So there.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by splice:
All right, a simple one: Who were the other three hitokiri? What do you know of them?

I don't intend to keep posting in this thread until some kind of answer to the questions asked is given. Saying "I've been studying this for 25 years and it's all in scrolls that you can't see" won't cut it, sorry. If that's all you have to say, well, I have secret scrolls here that say the exact opposite of what you say, but you can't see them either. So there.[/QUOTE]

He is right. seeing is beliving. and I would like to find out more info on him and the three other hirokiris. email it to me at Neopagan_dragonmaster@yahoo.com if you are willing. Thanks.

Trunk

I thought that the "edo period" was your area????

Why do you need any of use to help you??

Still waiting for your anser to my question on how you can study a "period."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Trunk

I thought that the "edo period" was your area????

Why do you need any of use to help you??

Still waiting for your anser to my question on how you can study a "period."[/QUOTE]


I want to know more of the people because all i know is the period. Duh.

Trunk

Still waiting for your "expanation" of how you "know" a "period" without knowing anything about the "period."

"Duh"

Tell you what, take a momment to wipe the drool from your chin and just tell me how you can "know" a "period?"

Can I "major" in "1920?" Can I get a Masters in "1880?"

"Duh"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
Trunk

Still waiting for your "expanation" of how you "know" a "period" without knowing anything about the "period."

"Duh"

Tell you what, take a momment to wipe the drool from your chin and just tell me how you can "know" a "period?"

Can I "major" in "1920?" Can I get a Masters in "1880?"

"Duh"[/QUOTE]

Your not very smart wene it comes to this are you. I study the inportant dates of the era's. The dates of who did what what happened where.

Trunk

Please dude, if your going to be a jackass, PLEASE at least try and be an INTERESTING jackass.

Answer me this--if you already "know the important dates....and who did what"

Why do you need us to give you info--you already "know" this stuff.

Or don't you???????

"Duh"

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-03-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
Trunk

Please dude, if your going to be a jackass, PLEASE at least try and be an INTERESTING jackass.

Answer me this--if you already "know the important dates....and who did what"

Why do you need us to give you info--you already "know" this stuff.

Or don't you???????

"Duh"

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-03-2005).][/QUOTE]

I know liitle of the 4 Hitokiri because there are not talked about in the edo period much. I know the dates of inportant stuff like his death and wene he was born very little in middle. and Name calling is breaking the rules...I just learned that.

Trunk

Did I call you a name?
Or did I just give you some good advice?

Boring me now.

Boring, boring, boring, boring.

Ajusting my computer to the "ignore" setting.



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-03-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
Trunk

Did I call you a name?
Or did I just give you some good advice?

Boring me now.

Boring, boring, boring, boring.

Ajusting my computer to the "ignore" setting.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-03-2005).][/QUOTE]

I am glad now you might shut up for a bit. Thank you peace and quite.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trunkssun:
Your not very smart wene it comes to this are you. I study the inportant dates of the era's. The dates of who did what what happened where. [/QUOTE]

Where are you learning your information from? They didn't teach Japanese history in any of my high school classes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by laf7773:
Where are you learning your information from? They didn't teach Japanese history in any of my high school classes.

[/QUOTE]

The computere and people who lives in japan had helped me. I have many sites with the important dates.

Forgive us if we don't recognize the authority of your sources.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
Forgive us if we don't recognize the authority of your sources. [/QUOTE]

Here is one of the webs http://www.lac.uic.edu/~dturk/japanhistory/edohistory.html

That's kinda vague. Could you quote any particular section of that website which supports any of your assertions? Given the format of that particular site it should be as easy as providing a date for us to look in.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
That's kinda vague. Could you quote any particular section of that website which supports any of your assertions? Given the format of that particular site it should be as easy as providing a date for us to look in.[/QUOTE]

All i was trying to show is that I don't study the people in the period. All i do is find important dates and get them stuck in my head.

Trunk

But don't most of "important dates" have to do with people???

In reading your link it seems that almost every "important date" is linked to events that are caused by people or effect people.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Trunk

But don't most of "important dates" have to do with people???

In reading your link it seems that almost every "important date" is linked to events that are caused by people or effect people.

[/QUOTE]

I Don't study the Hitokiris as much as the people who had run it.

1,000 Shinsengumi? I thought there was only like 200 or 240 of them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Walter Wong:
1,000 Shinsengumi? I thought there was only like 200 or 240 of them.[/QUOTE]

Who know the real truth it happend over 200 years ago.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trunkssun:
Who know the real truth it happend over 200 years ago.[/QUOTE]


As we can say about his knowledge of japanese history so far:
We all don`t know nothing about things that happened in the past but luckily there`s a person calling him-/herself trunkssun (=almighty wisdom & knowledge).
I`m very thankful for trunkssun opening my eyes. Now I`m aware for example that in a person`s life the only important dates are the ones of birth and death and not the so many years in between.


About creating 5 Ryuha (if that`s true at all):
There are many differences in the many Ryuha, some containing just of a handful of techniques, some including a great variety of techniques, weapons etc. Therefore it`s possible that a single Ryu consists of more teachings than 5 other Ryu together.

I'm attending U of M Ann Arbor, and I'm planning on some sort of concentration in Greek and Roman history.

I've never heard of memorizing dates to attain knowledge of a period. Yes, they are important so you can know when something happened, but I've never heard of simply studying "the period itself". That would be like me studying Rome in the 1st century without studying how the people in that period like Gaius Marius, Gaius Julius Caesar, or Octavian/Augustus changed Rome and how that relates to our culture in this day and age.
Knowing that Octavian was given the title of "Augustus" in 27B.C. or that Caesar was assasinated in 44B.C. doesn't really do anything, now does it?


P.s. I'm new to the forum, fairly new at MA's too, hi everybody!

Howdy. The problem is that the person who has "studied the period" has done so on his own. He's not exactly part of a formal program of study. Not at all sure what level of education the person has.

The Shinsengumi ended around the 1860's. So it's not quite 200 years yet. More like over 100 years ago but not over 200 years ago.

[This message has been edited by Walter Wong (edited 03-10-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Walter Wong:
The Shinsengumi ended around the 1860's. So it's not quite 200 years yet. More like over 100 years ago but not over 200 years ago.

[This message has been edited by Walter Wong (edited 03-10-2005).][/QUOTE]

Maby so, but we are not talking about wene they ended we're talking about The battle with the Shinsengumi and the four Hitokiri. which I belive was over two hundred years ago.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
Howdy. The problem is that the person who has "studied the period" has done so on his own. He's not exactly part of a formal program of study. Not at all sure what level of education the person has.[/QUOTE]

Well "Caleb's" profile says he's 14; he may be 15 by now. Just have to wonder where his study material has come from.

trunks, come off it already, all right? I don't know where you learned what you think you know, but your knowledge is certainly suspect, and I would think in many respects plain wrong.

Tanaka Shinbei was the first Hitokiri born during that period, in 1832. 2 years before Kawakami Gensai. Now, unless Hitokiri were fighting some 30 years before even being born, you're flat out wrong. You ought to stop reading whatever you're reading and get some real historical texts. I don't think your historical "facts" have much worth here.

Just to place a piece of Frederick Nieztche Wisdom in this hot little thread (Sorry if his name is spelled wrong),

"None argue more forcefully then the indignant."

Just paraphrasing so sorry if it is wrong but the main point was put accross.

And no, rurouni kenshin and related stuff don't count as historical sources.

LMFAO!!!!!

Wait...they AREN'T? But all my knowledge of fuedal japan is based on animes like rurouni kenshin and inuyasha!

Next your gonna say that half dog demon half humans didn't run around with impossibly large katanas that could slash an object 20 meters away with energy!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SwordCritter:
"And no, rurouni kenshin and related stuff don't count as historical sources."

LMFAO!!!!!

Wait...they AREN'T? But all my knowledge of fuedal japan is based on animes like rurouni kenshin and inuyasha!

Next your gonna say that half dog demon half humans didn't run around with impossibly large katanas that could slash an object 20 meters away with energy![/QUOTE]

Anything could of happend. We don't know our own damn history or what happend in B.C time or how humans were made. Many thing could of happend at any time wene we could not wright stuff down.

Actually no. The laws of phsyics haven't changed in several billion years. There are some things we know for a fact did not happen.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
Actually no. The laws of phsyics haven't changed in several billion years. There are some things we know for a fact did not happen.[/QUOTE]

It happend billions of years ago...that means nothing to me besides that the stuff we know would of been different like gravity. Being closer to the sun would have a change in the earth. All we know is what we are able to study. Things Like the laws of phisics, Which I thought phisics was based of the gravitational pull of the sun and moon and what they did to "our" planit.

Trunkssun,

Seriously, stop. You’re making little to no sense. What you are making is a joke of yourself. Stop with the "anything is possible" rambling, it's old. I have about reached my limit with this sort of discussion.

Laf is right. Your grasp of physics is lacking. The physical laws which govern the universe, including gravity, haven't changed in several billion years. It doesn't matter how close the earth is to the sun.

Trunssun

Wait, wait, wait, billions of years ago?

What are we talking about again?

I thought we were talking about fuedal Japan not sword weilding dinosaurs!

Secondly we have a pretty good grasp on how humans came to be. Dog demons were not involved.

as for being closer to the sun would only have an effect of incinerating the atmosphere and changing the tides. (If the seas weren't vapourized!)

Knowing that you are 14/15 years old I will lay off the physics as you wont be studying that for a couple years yet. (that and it isn't really the topic of this thread or forum).

I disagree. A lot of swordsmanship is all about physics and the proper manipulation thereof.

Yes i agree that there IS quite a lot of physics in all forms of swordsmanship (leverage of a stike, momentum and the balance point) but i meant that i will stop bugging him about his/her little lack of physics knowledge (no offense intended Trunkssun)

[This message has been edited by SwordCritter (edited 03-17-2005).]

...still discussing unimportant matters?

trunkssun, I`m really asking myself:
Did you once had a question which you wanted to be answered or did you just sat down on your PC, feeling somehow bored?
What was your first question for?
Did you chose this thread to steal time from serious persons just for beeing entertained?

You are (if that`s true) just 14-15 years old, having a question (which many guys wouldn`t even listen to) - that`s absolutely okay. Nevertheless I think that you should not always deny any answer you`re not willing to accept - for really strange reasons.

When a discussion comes to a point where one can only defend himself by saying things like
...but billions of years ago everything was maybe different and all you guys can´t prove the opposit - that`s really poor.

Okay, when we`re really going into the physics, then let me tell you that Gensai never touched any other person - people (at least for let me just say for the last 500 years) were not able to touch anything and still we can`t do so.
Why?...(sorry I`m to tired and bored to go deeper)

you got many answers from persons who`ve spent a great part of their lives within the asian martial arts/history and still you just ignoring everything you`re told.
In general it`s a good idea not to believe what you`re told - in the case you have serious doubts or knowing better.
In every other case you should maybe think like: "Okay, that sounds a little strange to me but as I don`t know better it`s possibly true".


About researching truths I have to say:

1. One should always use different sources which should be the best available to him if possible even if he has just one little question.
Websites are often not very good researched and sometimes texts are just copied from other Websites. One should get the information who made the Website if possible and if that person is really involved into the things he writes about.

2. One should consider even quite good documents not as absolutely being true in all the many details as sometimes new facts appear..
(For example Science, as far as I remember the school: First the molecules have been the smallest part every body consisted of, then came the atoms, then the electrons.., then the quarks(? soory,I am german) and actually they found out that still there are even smaller pieces in the "system".

3. One should not think that an answer is the more truthful the more often it`s repeated in different sources.
(A very good example was the gulfwar about 14? years ago: I was lucky enough to see the news in three different languages, German, French, GB&A-English. They all showed us the same movies but were to a certain degree telling different stories about who was how much bad or good etc. If I would not have known about the news in the other three countries, my point of view would possibly have been different. In Germany we had many sources which all said the same - but still there were at least that three other "truths".

4. One should be aware of the fact that even written history is most often written by the winners of war or policy, not by the loosers. Many heroes for example have been glorified posthum. Sometimes it was the same with men who stood against the winner. These men for example were used for manipulating (as a good example of honor etc.),the masses for ownn reasons of men who made themselves leaders of a crowd.

5. One should accept that the search for truth (if he`s serious and not only trying to raise up his ego with spreading "knowledge" around wherever he goes or stands) is sometimes really hard.
Who loves to get an answer he never thought of as beeing true?
Well, that`s just the price one has to pay for trying to get as much real knowledge as possible throughout his life.

6. One should -even if he thinks he knows better about a thing- listen to another person. When he doesn`t, this person won`t tell him anything else again (Maybe the next thing is of great importance - who knows beforehand?).

I think that`s the way the guys here tried to treat you but at a certain point they won`t any longer for sure.
One who has a question and asks for an answer should always been given a good answer, the best possible answer.
As everyone seeks normally for these good answers, everyone has vice versa to think three times if the next question coming up in his mind is a good one.

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-17-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trunkssun:
Anything could of happend. We don't know our own damn history or what happend in B.C time or how humans were made. Many thing could of happend at any time wene we could not wright stuff down.[/QUOTE]


Really, then I guess the University of Michigan's Classical Studies Department must be a bunch of fakers, cause they use dates in B.C., or B.C.E. in some cases, Before the Common Era. We know a damn lot about our own history, in fact, ready for this?

Our governemnt was partially founded based on principles put forth by the ROMANS!! They lived a loooong time ago, like before 0 A.D., and they had a thing called a Republic and a Senate, which is partly what our gov't is based on.

Apparently you have never heard of something called Papyrus.....

The more you know.......

The less you can BS......


[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 03-20-2005).]