Iaido or Kendo?

Posted by: Anonymous

Iaido or Kendo? - 12/18/04 04:07 PM

Heya all,

I want to become adept with a Katana, but don't know whether Kendo or Iaido would be more appropriate.

I'm not knowledgeable about sword-arts, and am admitting so, so please don't scream at me like a newbie.


Mark.
Posted by: Amos Smith

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/18/04 04:18 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StayUnderMyWing:
Heya all,

I want to become adept with a Katana, but don't know whether Kendo or Iaido would be more appropriate.

I'm not knowledgeable about sword-arts, and am admitting so, so please don't scream at me like a newbie.


Mark.
[/QUOTE]


Thats a question that could raise some hackles. My opinion is this:

Kendo is a sport, which will teach you how the use a shinai. Kenjutsu is an art which will teach you to use a sword. Iaido is a subset of Kenjutsu which will teach you to draw and cut in the same motion.

So to answer your question...(in my opinion)neither iaido or kendo will teach you to use a sword specifically. I think you may be looking for kenjutsu, which may include iaido.

Just my opinion.

Amos
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/18/04 07:54 PM

Mark, I am also pretty much a beginner in the sword arts. My choice was both Iaido and kenjutsu. In the research I have done, it seems there elements of both in both. Kenjutsu is combat with a sword, and starts with the sword already drawn. Iaido, as Amos said, is the art of drawing the sword, making a counter and/or attack, then returning the sword to the saya (scabbard).

For coolness, I like Iaido, for really learning how to fight with a sword, I like kenjutsu. Like I said, I'm a beginner at this so take what I say with whatever you want.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/18/04 08:09 PM

Don't sell Iai short. We do most if no all of the things the kenjutsu guys do, and we do it with real swords instead of wooden ones. We just do it with a different emphasis in training. Iai is not just about drawing cutting and putting it back. There's an awful lot more to it than that.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/18/04 08:41 PM

Charles,

I do iai and kenjutsu and I have to disagree. Iai is mainly tandoku geiko (solo training) and kenjutsu is sotai geiko (paired training).

Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu, the ryuha you train in doesn't do any sotai keiko like Tachi Uchi No Kurai or Tsume Ai No Kurai for years (Depending upon the sensei of course). But most don't allow even paired training with bokuto for quite a long while. How are trainees supposed to learn hasuji, hyoshi, kyusho and seme from tandoku geiko?

Not trying to knock the art, as I train in it too, in a different ryuha. Sotai keiko is for learning timing, distance, vital points, how to use the sori of the weapon, etc. Tandoku geiko is for learning how to draw, handle and cut with a shinken.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/18/04 09:44 PM

Considering we spend the majority of our time with real swords I'd say we have the advantage on judging hasuji.

As for two man waza, I agree. They are quite necessary. That's why they are integral to our training curriculum, but you are correct. They are not taught early in the training curriculum. It's usually not taught within the first 6 years or so of training. The things the kumitachi are meant to teach cannot be adequately worked on if the student doesn't have a firm grasp of the fundamentals of the system. You can't work on cutting your partner with kesagiri using proper timing and proper maai manipulation if you can't perform a proper kesagiri without an opponent. You can try, but the training time would be better spent working on fundamentals.

Iai is primarily solo waza because you cannot do iai properly in a paired exercise. The very nature of iai requires the use of live blades for quality training, and that prevents paired waza. Doesn't help attendance if you keep killing students during training.

You're more than welcome to take up the matter of our training curriculum with Ikeda-soke.

What styles of Iai and kenjutsu do you study?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/18/04 11:43 PM

Guys, I don't mean to sound rude, but most of us aren't Japanese, and a lot of us don't speak the language. Would you please give translations or use English phrases instead of straight Japanese?

Thank you

SUMW, you are polite and use neither L33t nor Aolien. Why kind of jerks would we be if we screamed at you?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/19/04 04:58 AM

Ben - Well, cos I spot on a few boards, and when someone asks a newbie-ish question, people can tend to get a bit annoyed. Anyway, thanks.

That's a shame. So, in Iaido I'd get to know how to handle a Katana well, but not really learn how to fight for 5 years?

And Kenjutsu I'd learn to fight with a sword from the beginning, but not how to handle a Katana at all?

I'm an actor, so partly want to acquire skills that could help me in my career.

What do you think is easist:

1. Being an Iaido practitioner, and learning how to put a fight together? ir

2. Being a Kendo/jutsu practitioner, and learning how to use a Katana for the fight skills you already have?


Mark.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/19/04 08:01 AM

Charles,

It's Steve Delaney from e-budo and the (now defunct) Samurai forum.

I do Araki ryu.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 09:04 AM

Hey Steve! Howya been. Now at least I know where you're coming from.

Mark,
I think you're missing the point. The solo training IS combat training. It's one piece of the puzzle, and a very important piece for MJER. The two man work is just another part of the training, not the beginning of training. It merely reinforces and expands upon things that you should already have learned in the solo waza.

As for cinematic swordsmanship, I don't know that real training will help you much. Real swordwork has a tendency to be very boring to watch. It can give you some control that only really comes with training. That said, it' probably doesn't matter what you train in if control is your only goal.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 09:48 AM

Thanks Charles, you seem to be one of the authorities here, so I appreciate your wisdom.

Even though I partially want skills to aid my career, I'm not in it to learn "film swordsmanship", so want my training to be real, but geared to what would help me the most.

I'm leaning toward Iaido, just because you handle a Shinken all the time. The ability to draw and re-sheathe well looks good on camera, and gives the impression of control. A fight can be choreographed, and as you say, solo practice IS combat training.


Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 10:16 AM

Don't get me wrong. You will not be training with a live blade for many years. How long depends on your school and dedication. You will use an iaito from very early in training however. An iaito is a zinc aluminum alloy blade which is for all other practical intents and purposes the same as a live blade except for being dull. Check out http://www.swordstore.com for a look at a fine manufacturer or iaito.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 10:49 AM

Gotcha.

I was considering a Paul Chen Practical Plus. I know you don't value then too highly, but I'm not looking for a "real" sword, as I am beginner, and a PCPP I can get for £120 ($250).

What kind of blade would you suggest? When buying an Iaito, is the price range only for aestethics? I know the difference between 420/440 steel, and carbon, but what is the difference in the 1A-7007 range?

Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 10:59 AM

The primary difference between the various lines of Swordstore Iaito, which is to say 1A to 5005 is aesthetic in nature. They are for the most part functionally equivalent. The 6006 and 7007 are shinken. Made of steel and sharp as all heck.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 12:09 PM

Thank you, this is all very helpful indeed.

I think I want to spend around £200 ($400ish).

So you think a good first sword might be the custom 1A Iaito from there? $350, that's not bad at all.

What do you think of www.samurai-store.com?

You can get a custom for $326. That's sounds prety good too.

I have to take into account UK delivery as well though.


Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 12:17 PM

I have no experience with Samurai Store. Our dojo has been using Swordstore for the last 7 years. We've had a lot of experience with their training weapons. You could look over at http://www.swordforum.com for a review.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 02:11 PM

Ok.

But you do think it's an Iaito I should get if I want to stick to that price range?

Even though they're not cutting weapons, it's not gonna snap in two if it hits something like a 420/440 blade is it?


Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 02:13 PM

Yes it probably will, but then again there's a good chance a 420/440 blade being struck against another 420/440 blade will break as well.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 12-20-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 02:59 PM

We might at cross-purposes.

I know a 420/440 blade breaks if it hits something, including another 420/440.

But if a 1A-5005 Iaito, which is considerably more money, breaks so easily as well, what's the point in buying one rather than a 420/440?


Mark.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 03:42 PM

I don't know why they use zinc-aluminum, but I do know why they don't use stainless.

Stainless steel doesn't just break, it shatters. I saw this happen once on stage during an Easter musical (Peter blocked a swipe from a roman guard while fleeing in Gethsemane). The blade shattered, and the next scene was delayed for five minutes while he got his hand wrapped up. The man was lucky, it hadn't gotten his leg.

Edit: How silly of me. If you look on the internet, you can find anythingLook here for the explanation.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 04:44 PM

Ok, I have a better understading of these weapons now.

I'm not spending tons on a sword, as I'm a beginner, but I don't want one that snaps in half if you accidentally turn round and hit it on the wall. Even £200 is a lot to spend only to have it break.

What's the best compromise on strength and price, and just HOW brittle is a Iaito? I mean, how easy are they to break?


Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/20/04 08:07 PM

Iaito are solo practice weapons. They are used for form work only. No contact. Iaito are the primary training tools of iaidoka for the first several years of their training, and will be used off and on for the rest of their training career.

Why are they made of zinc aluminum alloy? That has a lot to do with Japanese Sword laws. There are regulations in Japan that limit sword smiths to 2 katanas per month. That's all they are allowed to make by law. Considering there aren't that many smiths left and the number of iaidoka in Japan has exploded over the last few decades, an alternative had to be found. The regulations did not extend to blades made of soft aluminum alloys, but did cover all ferrous(ie iron based) alloys. So no steel of any kind. The zinc aluminum alloys have been adopted as a suitable alternative.

Another part of the problem that led to the popularity of iaito is the effect the production restrictions had on the price of shinken. Scarcity leads to higher prices. Much much much higher prices. A newly smithed blade in Japan will run you a minimum of $4000 or so. That would be made most likely by a smiths apprentice, and one with no reputation or particular skill of their own. A decent blade with good fittings can easily cost $6000 to $10,000. And there is almost literally no limit to how much you can spend on one. $4000 is a little steep for new students to afford so again the iaito's came to the rescue.

So that's a little history. On another note, iaito are now the traditional beginners training tool. They've only been around for 50 odd years or so, but are used universally for new students. In other words, you will almost certainly be allowed to train with an iaito, but it is VERY unlikely anyone worth training with will allow you to train with a stainless steel wallhanger.

Two man work in almost all styles is done with wooden swords or shinai. So it is really irrelevant whether or not your iaito will survive contact with another blade.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 01:27 AM

Would say a Bugei samurai be able to withstand other blows of another sword? If a bugei samurai sword crossed with a 420/440 stainless blade, would it shatter the stainless blade but leave the bugei samurai intact?

You can replace samurai with any of their other "real swords". I just used that one as an example because it's a pretty well rounded sword.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 04:43 AM

Yes, I imagine a folded 7007 shinken would smash a 420/440 and come out pretty unscathed. They just shatter on impact.

Charles, what I mean is that although a Iaito would never stand up to sword contact, is it goin to snap in half if I turn round by accident and hit it on a wall/couch/chair, as stupid beginners may do?


Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 08:45 AM

Not unless you hit it pretty hard. I've seen someone break the tip off an iaito, but he had lost his balance during a tricky waza and elected to let go of his sword mid swing rather than risk falling on it. It flew 10 feet across the room into a brick wall tip first. The last half inch of the blade broke off. That was a pretty hard hit though.

Plenty of folks I know have accidentally cut a little high and caught a piece of the ceiling with no permanent damage.

As for the Bugei Samurai cutting wallhangers, Don't know. I suspect you will notch the edge, or at least chip it. Believe it or not, katana were made for cutting people not other swords. That's why the ryu-ha typically advise against hard blocks in favor of diversion and evasion. A hard block is just too dangerous.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 10:05 AM

One final question.

Paul Chen Practical Plus vs SwordStore Iaito?

PPCP - i.e. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36281&item=7122817171&rd=1

It seems to say that it has the strength of a cutter, with less aesthetic frilly bits, but for much less money.

What d'ya think?

Merry Xmas by the way.


Mark.


P.S. This may sound silly, but everything I read is from a right handed perspective. I would feel more comfortable drawing with the left, is that allowed, or would I just have to train the other way and get used to it?


[This message has been edited by StayUnderMyWing (edited 12-21-2004).]
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 10:37 AM

That's really a question for your instructor. At our dojo, you would not be allowed to train with the PPK+. They have a lousy balance and are not really built for excessive training. The handle won't stand up to it. Worse, the lousy balance in heavy kata use is likely to cause tendonitis in the right forearm.

The PPK+ is a cheap as dirt cutter. I'm not a cutter, but from the reviews I've seen by people who do cut, the PPK+ is marginal at best. On the upside, it's cheap enough that if you break it or bend it badly you're only out a couple hundred dollars. It is not suited to iai training at all.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a right-handed perspective and drawing from the left. The sword is always worn on the left hip and drawn with the right. There are no left handed swordsmen in Japan.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 12-21-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 11:18 AM

I mean that I would feel SOO much more comfortable drawing and resheathing with my left hand from a Saya on my right hip.

Does this mean that I just won't be able to?


Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 11:25 AM

Pretty much.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 01:13 PM

Dammit, that's really annoying. I've tried it and it feels so alien to do it right handed, like writing with the wrong hand.

If it's mainly solo practice, why does it make a difference?


Mark.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 01:24 PM

Stay

Because there are no left handed Japanese swordsmen.

Or archers for that matter.

(Ok there maybe some, just so few and far between as be effectivly non-exsistant)

Just the way things are done.

Look at it this way--may give you a chance to develop functional skill with BOTH hands.

At least one Scots clan actually tied up the right hand of its warriors--"forced" them to train the left until they could use either hand.

(think it was the Kerrs--amoung others)

Might come in handy someday being able to use either hand.

Think what you may be able to someday do with nito kendo.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 05:24 PM

Ah, another southpaw. You could probably find a teacher who would be willing to teach you left handed. However, tradition is a great part of Japanese swordplay, so I am not sure you want one that would.

It's too bad, lefties have such an advantage in fencing.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 06:23 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

At least one Scots clan actually tied up the right hand of its warriors--"forced" them to train the left until they could use either hand.
[/QUOTE]

I do the same thing to my students when using one-handed swords. It helps you to be a better fencer all around. As far as the left handed thing, I promote use of your primary hand, whether it be right or left. It's only fair. It also makes things a bit more interesting because the strategies used to defeat a right hander are completely different than their southpaw counterparts.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 06:26 PM

The problem is primarily that no one would know how to teach a southpaw to do things with the left hand. No one does it so there is no frame of reference. Add to that the fact that katana are primarily two handed weapons. It's not a simple matter of doing the same thing with the other hand.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/21/04 07:09 PM

It wouldn't be too different, would it? You would just reverse the footwork, the stance, the way you carry the sword, and everything else. If a student is a natural left hander, he should be able to mirror commands and instructions with ease. The only problem I have had in fencing is with the handshake at the end of the match.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/22/04 05:27 AM

I understand the difficulty. I'd be wandering around the Dojo doing Katas opposite to everyone else, and would have to line-up 10 feet away in case I cut someone's head off next to me.

It's just a little annoying. Imagine throwing a football with the other hand? Ahhh!


Mark.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/22/04 09:06 AM

The problem is that the subtlties of swordwork are learned by sensei demonstrating and the student doing his/her best to copy the technique. So the sensei could probably coble the technique together backwards, but he'll never be able to show the subtleties to the student because he can't do them either. It would be up to the student to translate them from the regular version, and the student doesn't isn't the best person for the job, because the student doesn't know the subtleties.

See what I mean? It's theoretically possible Especially if you could arrange for the student to watch the instructor through a mirror or something, but that's just silly. Tradition is as big a part of the average koryu as any of it's techniques. Left handed swordsman simply did not exist, and so they do not exist now.

That's not to say that there aren't lots of southpaws swinging steel in Japan. There most certainly are, and they do it just like everyone else. Swinging steel is a uniquely two handed activity. Right handed folks have trouble with some aspects that lefties don't, and vise versa.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 12-22-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/24/04 06:16 AM

I think the problem with a lot of Kenjutsu today is that the original art has been split into so many subarts, all of which are needed to become an effective swordsman.

If you can find a good traditional Kenjutsu school(Not likely outside of Japan) you should find their training includes Iaijutsu, shinai sparring, handling real swords, combat training, probably some grappling and everything in between.

Are you could try and find a Haidong Gumdo school within a reasonable distance of your home =)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 12/24/04 06:25 AM

My instructor is naturally left handed yet wields the sword just like everyone else (Yes, even one handed techniques are done with the right hand). You simply become ambidextrous after a time.

She can write using either hand with no visible difference as well. It's crazy!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 03/10/05 02:44 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benjamin1986:
It's too bad, lefties have such an advantage in fencing.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say that. (This addresses the issue of doing iaido with only your right hand, so bear with me). The person who I usually train against in fencing is my brother who is left handed, and while it gave him the advantage in the beginning, eventually one adapts and it actually helps me when fencing other righties because I have the other perspective. So, in iaido, you'll have the other perspective which could help you in competitions.

Also, my brother reached 5th kyu in iaido using his right hand with no trouble, so it can be done. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 03/10/05 03:18 PM

Yes, I am sure that being a lefty helps fencers tremendously, especially in foil. Your arm litterally gets in the way a right handed attack, and if they miss your arm, they have a much better chance of missing you completely since their angle is off and their blade is bent backwards. If you aren't used to it, this gets very, very annoying.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 03/11/05 09:46 AM

When training in a style, one have to go with what they are instructed to do and not necessarily do what they feel is comfortable. Until a solid foundation is established in a style, one have to just do what the teacher and style is teaching them to do. Without that solid foundation in that style, they'll just be missing subtle details that mean life and death in actual fight or wasting energy doing unneccessary movements that could be critical to them getting killed.

[This message has been edited by Walter Wong (edited 03-11-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Iaido or Kendo? - 03/11/05 02:53 PM

Well in my opinion
if tradition dictates the use of anything really in a particular way why question it?
and when it comes to japanese sword play there history of skill with blades in mind i would'nt want to try anything diffrent at all