Fencing vs Kendo

I'm sure many of you have heard of face offs including these two differing sword styles. But i have never seen a match between the two, nor have i ever heard people who know what they're talking about on this subject. I just want to hear some opinions on a Fencer fighting a Kendo or Kenjutsu artist.

With what weapons? The trouble with fighting a kenjutsuka is that it's very difficult to dodge or parry a fatal cut. A lot of the standard dodge and parry stuff is not gonna work the same way. Of course the kenjutsuka will face similar but different challenges with the fencers.

Concensus on this type of question always comes down to... depends on the particular individuals involved.

For what it's worth, a mixed match of this sort was held in the early 1900s, between the great maestro Julio Castello, and a nameless kendoka. Castello was armed with a saber, so he could both cut and thrust. He won.

Well this question I have seen a great number of times on other forums. 1st, we must take into consideration the speed of the fencer's rapier (assuming that will be the weapon of choice). But the lethal capabilities of a katana and its extra-long reach over the rapier is something to take into consideration. The footwork would be more or less evenly matched given that fencing and Kenjutsu in general have very dinamic and fast footwork. If we assume the fencers have both the same skill level on their respective arts; my guess would be that they will most likely kill eachother, a draw. The rapier is small, light and fast. The katana is long, powerfull and posseses superior cutting ability. The fencer will probably look for a good thrust trying to dodge the cutting of the Kenjutsu stylist. The Kenjutsuist wiil try to block or parry the rapier to get a good cutting or thrusting technique in. The fencer in the end might get cut and the Kenjutsuist might also receive a potentially lethal thrust. Again, a draw. As Musashi said: "When you pitch two equally skilled oponents against each other, the winner is the one that draws his sword first." I believe that it depends on who "Lady Luck" smiles upon.

C. Roman

[QUOTE]Originally posted by whitedragon_48:
Well this question I have seen a great number of times on other forums. 1st, we must take into consideration the speed of the fencer's rapier (assuming that will be the weapon of choice). But the lethal capabilities of a katana and its extra-long reach over the rapier is something to take into consideration. The footwork would be more or less evenly matched given that fencing and Kenjutsu in general have very dinamic and fast footwork. If we assume the fencers have both the same skill level on their respective arts; my guess would be that they will most likely kill eachother, a draw. The rapier is small, light and fast. The katana is long, powerfull and posseses superior cutting ability. The fencer will probably look for a good thrust trying to dodge the cutting of the Kenjutsu stylist. The Kenjutsuist wiil try to block or parry the rapier to get a good cutting or thrusting technique in. The fencer in the end might get cut and the Kenjutsuist might also receive a potentially lethal thrust. Again, a draw. As Musashi said: "When you pitch two equally skilled oponents against each other, the winner is the one that draws his sword first." I believe that it depends on who "Lady Luck" smiles upon.

C. Roman[/QUOTE]

Bro, the original question was "kendo vs. fencing", not "classical kenjutsu vs. Renaissance European swordsmanship"...

If I'm not very much mistaken, the average katana is somewhat shorter than the average rapier.

MJER uses longer than average swords typically, and mine is a 2-4-5 by the traditional measurement system. That's about 30 inches worth of blade and another 10 inches worth of tsuka. Roughly 40 inches in total length. If I'm not mistaken rapiers are usually 4 to 10 inches longer.

Add to that the fact that katana's are typically wielded with two hands and the rapier has a considerable advantage in reach compared to the katata.

Now Kendo Shinai are usually a good bit longer than 40 inches, but I'm reasonably certain that the rapier is still longer on average, and again is a one handed weapon ensuring that the rapier still has the distance advantage.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 11-19-2004).]

The fencing saber used by Castello in the kendo vs. fencing match would have had a blade of around 34"-35" in length.

But yeah, rapiers are generally longer.

By 34" do you include the length of the handle? Or is that just the blade length? Even if that's total length, considering the one handed nature of the sabre, it still has a distance advantage. It is not as overwhelming thought if it is a saber instead of a rapier.

When I was mentioning the rapier it was in reference to WDs assertion "But the lethal capabilities of a katana and its extra-long reach over the rapier is something to take into consideration." This clearly shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the relative lengths of the two weapons.

For what its worth back in my college days we played around with saber and kendo shinai.

What general occured was a quick first stike by saber--usaully a quick thrust followed by a head cut the sabe guy almost never escaped from.

So from a "points" perspective-which both arts use--the saber "won."

Course the curved wire of a olympic style "saber" is no-where near the handeling charcteristics of a "real" saber.

Nor is the shinai anywher close to a "real" katana.

So it was a lot of fun--but don't know what it really proves.

What was more fun (in a twisted kind of way) was working with a "real" period saber--edges ground off.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhyCantIbeSteve:
I'm sure many of you have heard of face offs including these two differing sword styles. But i have never seen a match between the two, nor have i ever heard people who know what they're talking about on this subject. I just want to hear some opinions on a Fencer fighting a Kendo or Kenjutsu artist.[/QUOTE]

Try this article, from a guy that's done both: http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm

MAGON

Thanks!!

Excellent article.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

MAGON

Thanks!!

Excellent article.[/QUOTE]

You're welcome, bud. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Charles,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
By 34" do you include the length of the handle? Or is that just the blade length?[/QUOTE]

Just the blade length. The grip (including the pommel nut) adds about 6 more inches, so you're talking a total length of 40" or so.

[QUOTE]Even if that's total length, considering the one handed nature of the sabre, it still has a distance advantage. It is not as overwhelming thought if it is a saber instead of a rapier.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[QUOTE]When I was mentioning the rapier it was in reference to WDs assertion "But the lethal capabilities of a katana and its extra-long reach over the rapier is something to take into consideration." This clearly shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the relative lengths of the two weapons.[/QUOTE]

Gotcha.

Cxt made a good point (pun very much intended) about both the modern fencing saber and the shinai being unrealistically light, in terms of representing cutting weapons.

And, I have also played around with saber vs. shinai, but the people I work with all have fencing and FMA backgrounds--i.e., we don't have any trained kendoists to spar with--so the results are sketchy at best, IMO.

Peace,

A_M_P




[This message has been edited by Armed_Man_Piker (edited 11-19-2004).]

Very true indeed. I stand corrected. I had in mind the length of a modern fencing rapier vs my daito which happens to be a hefty 45". Compared to a medieval rapier that puts them as equals.

C. Roma

Very true indeed. I stand corrected. I had in mind the length of a modern fencing rapier vs my daito which happens to be a hefty 45". Compared to a medieval rapier that puts them as equals.

C. Roma

[QUOTE]Originally posted by whitedragon_48:
Very true indeed. I stand corrected. I had in mind the length of a modern fencing rapier vs my daito which happens to be a hefty 45". Compared to a medieval rapier that puts them as equals.

C. Roma[/QUOTE]

There is no "rapier" in modern fencing--only foils, sabers, and epees.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Try this article, from a guy that's done both: http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm

[/QUOTE]

One of John Clements's better articles, to be sure.

It originally appeared back in the Spring/Summer 1997 issue of J. Christoph Amberger's much-missed swordfighting newsletter, Hammerterz Forum.

Yea i meant rapier vs katana. And thanks for all the replies it was helpful. I've always favored Rapier over Katana cause i hate seeing those dirty japs win all the glory with their epic swordplay and all too powerful cutting tools. heh. anywho, thanks a lot.

WhyCantIbeSteve you sound you have some racial issues... plus im japanese and not a jap! and another thing in my opinion if a master of both sword styles faught with a true Japanese Sword and a true Rapier then to be honest i think if the two swords hit each other then the katana would make a huge notch in the rapier or even cut right through it because of how sharp and strong a nihonto can be.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rokujimaru:
and another thing in my opinion if a master of both sword styles faught with a true Japanese Sword and a true Rapier then to be honest i think if the two swords hit each other then the katana would make a huge notch in the rapier or even cut right through it because of how sharp and strong a nihonto can be.[/QUOTE]

Highly unlikely.

Why-Steve, I have the same sentiment. It is idiotic the way some Americans think there is no merit is swordplay or fighting outside of kenjitsu or kung-fu. They refuse to aknowledge that the knights of the west were anywhere near as good as the samurai of the east. However, the way you made that statement was highly out of line.

Roku, that is because you have never held a real European style blade (there are few men who still forge them, but thank you for proving my point). If we were talking about foils or epees, I would agree with you 100%. However, a real sword will not be cut or broken by any other sword in normal combat (note: anime and Hollywood are extremely wrong on this). Yes, a katana is sharp, but a rapier's edge will be just as sharp, and it is forged from the same steel. Quite likely, the rapier will be heavier than the katana as well, so you need to

About the length question. Today's fencing blades have a 34"-37" blade length, and some Spanish rapiers were as long as 44". By comparison, a typical katana is about 30"-32". Add that to the length gained by the single handed tactics, and the fencer has a suprising distance advantage.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benjamin1986:
If we were talking about foils or epees, I would agree with you 100%.[/QUOTE]

I doubt that an epee or even a foil would be cut--sure, they're very narrow, but they're also of a very tough temper.

[QUOTE]However, a real sword will not be cut or broken by any other sword in normal combat (note: anime and Hollywood are extremely wrong on this).[/QUOTE]

Cut? No.

Broken? It can happen--to any sword, for a variety of reasons.

[QUOTE]Yes, a katana is sharp, but a rapier's edge will be just as sharp, and it is forged from the same steel.[/QUOTE]

Wrong.

If we are talking about a rapier proper (as opposed to a European cut-and-thrust sword), than the bevel will be at a more obtuse angle, due to the design which is optimized for thrusting. The obtuse angle means that the blade won't take as keen an edge.

A European cut-and-thrust sword, on the other hand (broadsword, backsword, saber, cutlass, etc) will most certainly be as sharp as a katana, though it will typically require more frequent sharpening, due to the fact that the sword has a stiff "spring" temper throughout the blade (which, incidentally, makes it less likely to break).

[QUOTE]Quite likely, the rapier will be heavier than the katana as well, so you need to[/QUOTE]

???

[QUOTE]About the length question. Today's fencing blades have a 34"-37" blade length, and some Spanish rapiers were as long as 44".[/QUOTE]

I believe we already established the length of modern fencing weapons.

As for rapiers, they can vary widely in length. Some of the longest ones were almost 5 feet long overall.

A_M_P

<whistle> wow ya'll know what your talkin bout huh, its cool to read all these great messages, i think that if you people where to fight it out with which ever swords ya'll like best, none of you would come out with of it in one peace

To me the only thing that sets JSA apart from WSA, is simple. There are extant traditions and systems of instruction still around. Most WSA that exists today is reconstructed. That doesn't mean it's bad, but there is a bit of a disconnect between modern WSA and historical WSA, which simply doesn't exist in most koryu JSA.

It doesn't hurt that there was a highly qualified MJER instructor right here in Denton and there is no comparale instruction in WSA anywhere nearby. That makes the choice of what to train in pretty simple for me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
To me the only thing that sets JSA apart from WSA, is simple. There are extant traditions and systems of instruction still around. Most WSA that exists today is reconstructed. That doesn't mean it's bad, but there is a bit of a disconnect between modern WSA and historical WSA, which simply doesn't exist in most koryu JSA.[/QUOTE]

What's left of "extant traditions" in WSA is, by and large, the sport forms of fencing--these are admittedly watered down, but they still teach useful skills.

As for JSA, while they have been preserved in a way that older WSA styles have not, I would still be cautious in regards to assuming that what is being taught today in JSA is the same as what was being taught to bushi 400-odd years ago. Arts change over time.

A_M_P

[QUOTE]Originally posted by raiden16:
<whistle> wow ya'll know what your talkin bout huh, its cool to read all these great messages, i think that if you people where to fight it out with which ever swords ya'll like best, none of you would come out with of it in one peace[/QUOTE]

One "peace", eh?

yea, which swords are your favs?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhyCantIbeSteve:
I'm sure many of you have heard of face offs including these two differing sword styles. But i have never seen a match between the two, nor have i ever heard people who know what they're talking about on this subject. I just want to hear some opinions on a Fencer fighting a Kendo or Kenjutsu artist.[/QUOTE]

Swordfights do not last ten minutes like on television. A single swing or thrust, maybe two, and it is over.
That said, in a quickdraw a katana would win. hands down.
however, i think it is far more likely that if weapons were already drawn, a rapier would be more effective. a katana must be swung. rapiers go straight.

I saw a television show on the Discovery channel once about something along these lines, althouhg they used katanas and the long, thin japanese blade which I cannot recall the name of. This show pointed out that even if the warrior with the katana lost, if his blade was raised, he would often be able to swing it down with the last of his strength.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by raiden16:
yea, which swords are your favs?[/QUOTE]

First off, I believe you meant "PIECE".

Secondly, my favorite swords would include European basket-hilts, European two-handers, and the Filipino talibon, to name only a few.

What are yours?

Secondly, my favorite swords would include European basket-hilts, European two-handers, and the Filipino talibon, to name only a few.

What are yours?

[/QUOTE]

i have only used a wooden training sword, so i cant really say what my favorite sword is

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Armed_Man_Piker:
First off, I believe you meant "PIECE".

Secondly, my favorite swords would include European basket-hilts, European two-handers, and the Filipino talibon, to name only a few.

What are yours?

[/QUOTE]

A_M_P: No challenge here, just plain curiosity from an ignoramus.
What's a talibon, and can you describe it?

Drew

Katana were, are and be used to make thrusting attacks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
A_M_P: No challenge here, just plain curiosity from an ignoramus.
What's a talibon, and can you describe it?

[/QUOTE]

MAGon,

The talibon (sometimes spelled talibong) is a Filipino short sword, somewhat similar to a bolo, but with a rather extreme forward angle between the grip and blade, which gives the weapon a "leading edge" (which increases cutting ability). This design also facilitates thrusting.

Pictures are better than words at describing it:

http://www.quick-stick.de/quickstickneu/assets/images/db_images/db_i-TalibonS1.jpg

Peace,

A_M_P

[This message has been edited by Armed_Man_Piker (edited 12-03-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Armed_Man_Piker:
MAGon,

The talibon (sometimes spelled talibong) is a Filipino short sword, somewhat similar to a bolo, but with a rather extreme forward angle between the grip and blade, which gives the weapon a "leading edge" (which increases cutting ability). This design also facilitates thrusting.

Pictures are better than words at describing it:

http://www.quick-stick.de/quickstickneu/assets/images/db_images/db_i-TalibonS1.jpg

Peace,

A_M_P

[This message has been edited by Armed_Man_Piker (edited 12-03-2004).][/QUOTE]

Interesting! Thanks for the response and pics. Never seen or heard of it before.

i dont think that the katana could cut through the rapier. The way you people are desribing it (i'll admit im no expert), i read somewhere that the katana is more a slicing weapon than a chopping, in other words the cut is more subtle than a CHOP like a butcher knife. The rapier would just be deflected by the chop or if you did try to slice it it would'nt have much of an effect(once again im no expert). in my opinion rapier all the way its quick and seemingly sparatic movement keeps the katana user in the dark and if say your a samurai and wearing full armor then your even slower and a stab to the face is emminent.

Let it go, Seven. That point was countered long ago. Let's let an old topic die in peace.

About armor. Between the rapier and the katana, in full armor, you will have an extremely hard time making a killing blow. Neither are made for heavily armored opponents. The samurai would have a weakness in the mask, true, but gauntlets would drastically intefere with the subtle movements necessary for rapier fancing more than the samurai's armor would interfere with kenjitsu, adding another huge unknown to the equation.

Let's call it a draw be done with.

kendo would WOOP fencing but.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nobodysfool:
kendo would WOOP fencing but.[/QUOTE]

Have you read ANY of the above posts?

you really can't say who would win
i practice both as well as just self-defense fencing. When praticing self-defense fencing, i find that techniques from both styles come into play.
these are two different arts, it's like saying "Who's a better artisit, an actor or a dancer?" you just can't compare

Assuming equally skilled combatants the fencer has a great advantage. Your objective is not to kill your opponent but merely to tap him in various target areas. The fencer has the advantage here generally.

Although I wonder...Kendoka hit pretty hard and foils/epee aren't terrible strong. It seems as though a foil or epee would be destroyed trying to parry a shinai.