Duel Sword Arts

Hi, I was wondering if you knew of any sword martial arts that teach duel swords. I have deep experience with open hand combat such as Jeet Kune Do, Hagannah, and Weapon arts such as Kali/Escrima/Arnese and Knife classes. If any of you know or could suggest a form that teaches 2 swords. I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks.
-WarriorG

The use of two swords simultaneously is very rare within the Japanese Sword Arts world. Not unheard of, just rare. Perhaps the Chinese Sword arts have something to offer. What's more it is unlikely that your current experience will give you more than the slightest edge over rank beginners in a traditional sword art.

The principles of surviving a sword fight are somewhat different than the principles of unarmed and even knife fighting. This leads to different methods of moving, timing and manipulating distance. There is also typically a greater emphasis on proper form. "Proper" being relative to the particular school of sword art.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WarriorG:
Hi, I was wondering if you knew of any sword martial arts that teach duel swords. I have deep experience with open hand combat such as Jeet Kune Do, Hagannah, and Weapon arts such as Kali/Escrima/Arnese and Knife classes. If any of you know or could suggest a form that teaches 2 swords. I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks.
-WarriorG[/QUOTE]

"Kali", eskrima, and arnis feature two swords (and/or two sticks)--sinawalli/doble baston.

In addition, the Renaissance Italians of the Bolognese School (headed by Achille Marozzo) has their due spade ("two swords") style. The weapon used was a stout-bladed, cut-and-thrust sword with a complex hilt (like a rapier, but not so narrow in the blade).

Later in the century (1570s to 1590s), the Italian two-sword style was used with rapiers--in England, this method was referred to as the "case of rapiers".

[This message has been edited by Armed_Man_Piker (edited 11-18-2004).]

Perhaps if what you are looking for is sparring with swords you might want to look into Kendo. Very few Kenjutsu schools do sparring even with bokken much less with steel swords.

C. Roman

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:

What's more it is unlikely that your current experience will give you more than the slightest edge over rank beginners in a traditional sword art.[/QUOTE]

Charles,

Considering that Filipino eskrima is a sword art too, and considering that eskrima was used successfully against kenjutsu from the late 16th century onwards, why do you assume what you posted above?

Just Curious,

A_M_P

I'll admit that by traditional sword I largely had traditional Japanese sword in mind. I am aware that eskrima can be applied to swords, but what I have seen of eskrima technique would not transfer to JSAs at all well. Eskrima would be no be preparation for JSAs than experience in European saber fencing. Which is not to say that you do not have a some advantage over a rank beginner, but you don't have much. Many of the things you might have some advantage in would be offset by habbits that need to be broken in order to learn the new system.

I would also argue that a great deal of experience in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu does not give you a significant advantage when starting to train in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, nor vice versa. The principles of these two schools of traditional Japanese sword arts are different enough that the benefits are balanced by the habbits which must be broken. How much of an advantage would you expect to gain in MJER or YSR when coming at it from an Eskrima base where the weapons aren't even the same.

The point is, everyone is a beginner when they start regardless of background. The only thing you can really bring with you that a beginner doesn't necessarily have is a good attitude and perhaps some observational skills.

Charles,

I actually misunderstood your original post. You were talking about one's previous MA background either helping or hindering one's progress in a new art (JSA, in this case), whilst I was thinking style vs. style.

My mistake. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

Peace,

A_M_P

Armed Man Piker

Quick question.

You mention above that escarmia was used vs kenjutsu "successfully from the late 16th cent. onward."

What events are you reffering too?

Not familier with matchs or duels involving kenjutsu and escrima in that time period.

Seriously just asking here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WarriorG:
Hi, I was wondering if you knew of any sword martial arts that teach duel swords. I have deep experience with open hand combat such as Jeet Kune Do, Hagannah, and Weapon arts such as Kali/Escrima/Arnese and Knife classes. If any of you know or could suggest a form that teaches 2 swords. I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks.
-WarriorG[/QUOTE]

To my knowledge, these two Kenjutsu ryu teach ryoto (Two sword) techniques: Niten- ichi Ryu (The famous Miyamoto Musashi's creation) and Tenshin Shoden Kattori Shinto Ryu. There might be more which I don't know about.
As to the two above, (Unfortunately) good look finding a qualified sensei!

Within the US, TSKSR is only really available in Seattle. There are some other places that claim to be doing TSKSR but they are not authorized by the ryu.

HNIR is not all that common either. I don't think there are any authorized branch dojos in the states for this, although I could easily be wrong. There are definitely folks who teach HNIR here and there. I have no idea what their ties are to the ryu.

That's why I said it's very rare.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
Within the US, TSKSR is only really available in Seattle. There are some other places that claim to be doing TSKSR but they are not authorized by the ryu...
[/QUOTE]

Sensei recently returned from Japan, where he met with Otake- sensei... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
That said, you're still right about Seattle.
BTW, I notice you use the acronym HNIR. What's the H stand for? I'd always heard of it referred to as NIR, hence the curiosity.

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 11-19-2004).]

Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
http://www.hyoho.com/

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
http://www.hyoho.com/ [/QUOTE]

How 'bout that? Learn something every day.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Armed Man Piker

Quick question.

You mention above that escarmia was used vs kenjutsu "successfully from the late 16th cent. onward."

What events are you reffering too?

Not familier with matchs or duels involving kenjutsu and escrima in that time period.

Seriously just asking here.[/QUOTE]

cxt,

There were no matches or duels, but there were battles.

In 1574, the noted Chinese pirate, Lim-Ah-Hong, and his Japanese partner, Sioco, attacked Manilla with a force of Sino-Japanese pirates (wako). They were countered by Spanish regulars and Pampangan mercs under Juan de Salcedo.

Now, kenjutsu was employed not only by the Japanese warriors amongst the wako, but also by many of their Chinese fighting men.

So basically, you had fighting arts from 4 main areas involved--Spain, the Philippines (Pampanga), China, & Japan.

The fighting was pretty typical for the 16th century--a mixture of firearms (matchlock arquebuses, which were used by both sides), bows, and melee weapons (polearms, swords, etc).

Wako were also driven off in the 1580s.

The Filipino arts were also of course used against the Japanese during WWII, by both Filipino guerrillas and Filipinos in the US Army.

Peace,

A_M_P

Hello,
Read up on Miyamoto Musashi,his style is often refered tp as nito ryu,two sword school or niten ryu, two heaven school.

I think you are confusing a description of a type of sword style, ie nito type sword styles, with a ryu. I don't think the use of the term Nito Ryu is appropriate as it is not a koryu to my knowledge. I could be wrong, but the Ryu guide at http://www.koryu.com does not list it.

As for correcting me on the use of "Niten Ryu" That may be common shorthand for HNIR, but I'm not familiar with it. The only shorthand I have heard is Niten Ichi Ryu. I'll let you tell this guy that he's wrong http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho1.html

Actually, I respectfully differ with you Mr. Mahan. According to George McCall, Musashi changed the name of his ryu 3 times before dying.

"Enmyo Ryu

It was after his 'duel' with Miyake Gunbei (While in Ogasawara service in Akashi, Harima Province, 1615-1627 approx.) - the first in which he was to display his two sworded technique in public (allegedly) - that he named his style of fencing 'Enmyo Ryu'. Enmyo is an alternative name for Akashi, the province Musashi was currently serving in. The result of this duel (including the ease in which it was won) saw Musashi realise his youthful dream of designing and perfecting (externally) a method of fighting with two swords. From this point on he would spend more time theorising about the true core of 'swordsmanship' and what it meant to realise this.

Nito Ichi-Ryu

There was to be a gap of many years before we next hear of Musashi changing the name of his style of swordsmanship - Nito Ichi-Ryu, 'Two Swords integrated as One School/Style'. Musashi was to have his portrait done by a famous Confucian scholar serving the Shogunate - Hayashi Razan - and it is on this portrait where the name first makes it appearance. At this time in Musashi's life he was about 48 and living in the new Tokugawa capitol of Edo (approx. 1632).

Niten Ichi-Ryu

At some point before his death in 1645, while still serving the Hosokawa but after the writing of his 35 Articles of Swordsmanship and the Book of Five Rings, Musashi again changed the name of his style, this time to Niten Ichi-Ryu,'Two Worlds integrated as One School/Style'. It is said that after his death not one of his pupils had the ability to fully understand his style and, even with his two publications, could not piece it together accurately - Niten Ichi-Ryu ceased to exist.

Today in Japan there is a style called Hyoho Niten Ichi-Ryu Kenjutsu that traces its lineage back to Musashi. The present headmaster is the 10th generation Soke Imai Masayuki from Oita prefecture:
Niten Ichi-Ryu techniques are economical, with no flashy or exaggerated movements. Targeting is precise, and the distance and timing of techniques is exceptionally tight and without wasted motion. This school is most noted for its series of 5 two sword techniques, but there are also 12 single sword forms and 7 short sword forms."

C. Roman

So, I'll take a look at those and see. Nother ? though. What kind of swords should i look into getting? I have a katana that I train with sometimes but that doesnt help my 2 sword training. Any thoughts there?
-G

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WarriorG:
So, I'll take a look at those and see. Nother ? though. What kind of swords should i look into getting? I have a katana that I train with sometimes but that doesnt help my 2 sword training. Any thoughts there?
-G[/QUOTE]

Go back to your "kali"/arnis/eskrima, and do the sinawalli material.

I know Seno Wali.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WarriorG:
I know Seno Wali.[/QUOTE]

If you "know Seno Wali", then you already have knowledge of a two-sword art.

Hello,
I went to koryu.com and typed in niten ryu,it'll take you to hyoho niten ichi ryu.

Armed-Man-Picker

Thanks!

cxt,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Armed-Man-Picker

Thanks!

[/QUOTE]

Anytime, bro.

But please--once again--it's "Piker", not "Picker". [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Peace,

A_M_P

Sorry

How about we make it easier on my typing challenged self and just let me use "Armed?"

Work Ok for you?



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 11-21-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
Sorry

How about we make it easier on my typing challenged self and just let me use "Armed?"

Work Ok for you?

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 11-21-2004).][/QUOTE]

cxt,

"Armed" is fine, or "A_M_P", or "AMP"--whichever is easier.

Peace,

A_M_P

Sorry double post

[This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 12-08-2004).]

[This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 12-08-2004).]

Three attempts to post and they didnt show for a few days?

[This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 12-08-2004).]

Mushashi drew on different names throughout his lifetime. He finally settled for Hyoho Niten Ichiryu as a summation of his practices. Niten is also used by the Kegon Shu denoting the two heavens and their Gods supporting and protecting Buddha.

Within the Ryu are Ito Seiho, Nito Seiho, Kodachi Seiho, Bo, JuJutsu and Jitte Jutsu. This is probably why the shorter weapon was held in the left hand. Generally short sword in the right is considered to be Gyaku Nito enabling one to throw with the right. But overall, history tells us he threw well with either. The new Scott-Wilson work is good but has contradiction to the Tokitsu's book of Musashi's history. Even down to what particular weapons had been used.

Japan probably isn't the best place to look if you want to use duel swords.

I myself practice Chinese twin broadswords. They take alot of getting used to if you have trained in Japanese sword arts. For the longest time my perception was "Smash everything as hard as you can" while training with Katana. The Broadswords are not like that at all. very swift motions.

I've also seen double [Chinese] straight swords used, but I would imagine that would be very hard to do.

While not a sword, but an edged weapon, nonetheless, Butterfly Knives are used in pairs. They're the easiest to learn, but the hardest to perfect.

Hope that helps some.

Are you interest in thai sword? http://www.muaychaiya.com/T-1.mpg http://www.muaychaiya.com/T-2.mpg http://www.muaychaiya.com/T-3.mpg http://www.muaychaiya.com/T-4.mpg

The line of Araki ryu I train in, does gyaku nito in their kata. There are only four techniques and that's about it.

Hyaku, Steve here mate, I'm just starting to settle down in London. It's a hell of a contrast from Chiba ken & Saitama ken.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
The use of two swords simultaneously is very rare within the Japanese Sword Arts world. Not unheard of, just rare. Perhaps the Chinese Sword arts have something to offer. What's more it is unlikely that your current experience will give you more than the slightest edge over rank beginners in a traditional sword art.

The principles of surviving a sword fight are somewhat different than the principles of unarmed and even knife fighting. This leads to different methods of moving, timing and manipulating distance. There is also typically a greater emphasis on proper form. "Proper" being relative to the particular school of sword art.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be versed in what these differences are - would you mind expounding upon them?

Dude those videos were awesome. Thats almost exactly what my fights look like. We train and fight very similar to that look! Thanks man!

Haidong Gumdo includes two sword techniques.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jay Harms:
You seem to be versed in what these differences are - would you mind expounding upon them?[/QUOTE]

Sorry I must have missed your original query. I'll touch on them a little.

The primary difference is that there is exactly zero margin of error. If you do not cut him first you die. If you flub a parry, you die. There are no second chances. The other guy has a 30 inch razor blade and he's trained for 20 to 30 years or so for exactly this fight. If you hesitate, you die. So there's a difference in the consequence of failure.

The techniques in a sword school tend to be VERY detail oriented because they are designed to give you every possible advantage no matter how small. Success or failure, life or death might be measured in 10ths of a second.

There are other differences. The biomechanics of punching or kicking an opponent, is very different than the biomechanics of using a 3 foot long lever.
Proper application of power with that lever is very very different from unarmed applications of power. The power differences drive different stances and footwork. Proper manipulation of the angle of attack of the blade relative to your opponent.

Targets are very different. You cut targets you wouldn't normally concern yourself with unarmed.

There are also some safety issues to be concerned with. The slightest mistake by a student during training can lead to a disabling injury in a heartbeat.

These are just some of the differences. I'm sure there are others I don't have the time or inclination to delve into here.

reading the posts reminded me of something:
Arnis/Escrima and such gave rise to the term "leather necks" way back in the Phil-Am war

which also gave rise to the term magnum .45, but then again thats a different story

[This message has been edited by twistedlogic (edited 12-26-2004).]