The art of the reverse blade

Any one who trains with swords and feels interested in learning a new sword art, the reverse blade is really one to try. I would suggest not trying jumping into it quickly though. It will take some time to master, but it is truly a noble way of training.

Hey there...

When you say reverse Blade... Do you mean turning the Nagaso backwards and fighting with the spine or do you mean that cartoon creation from Rouruni Kenshin?

Regards
WalT

HAHA, when I say rerverse blade, I mean a reverse blade. Yes, like the one kenshin has. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] It's an actual type of sword, it's not just made up. The purpose was so that you would injure your enemy enough to stay down, but not to kill kim. IN japanese, it's called a sakabatou.

Just some quick questions for you.

1. If you don't intend on cutting someone, why use a sword at all?

2. Have you seen this "style" any place other than on cartoons? Not asking if your friends have seen it. Have YOU seen evidence of this sakabatou?

This subject has been covered before. It does not exist outside of anime.

Few swordsmen dared to journey to the dark shores of the Imperial Sea to challenge the ancient master that dwelled there. An old man, he spent his lifetime protecting and studying the ocean's essence and is said to been able alter the tides and summon the dreaded beasts of the deep. A man of mysterious power, he has been challenged by many, and lost to no one. His legendary skill has surpassed even the knowledge of the most experienced masters, each returning home bruised and battered from his reverse blade. His weapon of choice, the oldest of the GOTAIYO Swords, a sword with a reverse blade that is simple yet elegant, claiming it's beauty from the depths of the ocean. The background is flowing water, the source of all life, and the wisdom of one man. This is an old quote from an OLD book which was translated by the same translator who translates miyamoto musashis's The book of five rings.

It's just a small peice, and whether the story about the man himself is true or not really isn't the point. The reverse blade has been around for quite some time. The book itself was written back in the mid 1600's.

What I'm trying to say is that their existed the thought and art of the reverse blade since then. From then, it has only grew. Now given, that it's not a well known art because of that fact, the blade itself was not meant to kill, but that is what makes it so beautiful. The ability to study the art and philosphy of the sword, without effecting the strength and spirit of the human soul. To maintain that inner peace within yourself, while not destroying such a delicate thing as human life. That;s the main point behind the study of the reverse blade. I hope I answered your question. And on a lighter note, yes, it actually is a REAL sword. I have my reverse blade whenever I train or meditate.

[This message has been edited by rianonse (edited 08-19-2004).]

I can find no mention of an actual Ryu-ha in Japan (according to the Dai-Nippon Bujutsu Renmei) in reference to this weapon's use. So to paraphrase you, it sounds like the weapon saw very limited use ( maybe even limited to one man). When you say that you have the sword with you when you train...what system do you train in that allows the use of such a weapon? Do you train at an established school or club or do you train on your own?

Also, what is the name of this obscure book that you mentioned? I would like to check it out. Don't worry if is not written in English as I speak and read Japanese. I have a good number of Cleary's books ( the translator you spoke of) so it shouldn't be to hard to get this one...Big fan of Harvest book search.

Regards,
WalT

Ah, if the idea is to put someone down without killing them?

Why not just use a bokken or jo?

Makes more sense than to carry around a non-edged metal blade--which would be just as potentially lethal as a bokken.

If you decided you had to kill them--well, history is full of people using a bokken to kill.

They can be very dangerous in the right or perhaps wrong hands.

Plus, would you not use a reverse blade sword pretty much the same way as you would a "normal" blade?

Handeling should not be that different. Weight/mass should be the same.

Weird question that does not make much sense.

Rianose

What you have quoted above seems to be a Japanese "fairy tale" not a actual acoun tof a "real" swordsmen.

I can post a tale of a Japanese swordsmen fighting a spider the size of a house--does that mean there are spiders 20 feet tall in Japan?

Don't think so.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 08-19-2004).]

The name of the book would be nice. I asked for the resource, not a quote from it.

Sakabato never existed as shown in Kenshin. Period. It was an invention of the author of the series. I suspect that if your copy of the Book of Five Rings says otherwise that it is most likely due to a poor translation on the part of the translator.

Feel free to go to one of the more academic forums like http://www.e-budo.com or http://www.swordforum.com and search the archives. This topic has been discussed to death. I admire Kenshin for it's ability to inspire a new generation to look into the history of Japan and the koryu arts. That said it has been nearly as much of a headache as anything else, because it's tendency to mix fact with fiction makes it difficult for the Japanese history ignorant masses to distinguish between the two.

I think there is a reference on one of the Rurouroni Kenshin / Samurai X DVDs that states the sakabatou was introduced into the series as an aid in storytelling.

If Kenshin were to fight these bad guy swordsmen with a bokken, chances are it would get chopped in half by a real sword. So the author came up with the sakabatou concept so his main chatacter could still fight and triumph over these bad guys.

The anime suggests Arai Shatku is the man that made both of Kenshin's reverse blade swords (the only two in the series). As far as I can tell, this was a fictional character not based off of any historical figure.

Hope that helps.

Ed

Laf

"If you don't intend on cutting someone, why use a sword at all?"


I believe the Samurai sometimes did turn their swords over and strike with the mune with intention not to kill the opponent.

Bone setting in ancient Japan was primitive to say the least and any severe bone injury usually lead to the recipiant being crippled.

Using the mune then was a particularly crual thing to do in vengence attacks. The crippled Samurai would lose his livelyhood and it would be giving up his katana and becoming a peasant or seppuku.

I hate to break it to you but the occupation of the average samurai was either farmer or beuracrat.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Josef:
Laf

"If you don't intend on cutting someone, why use a sword at all?"


I believe the Samurai sometimes did turn their swords over and strike with the mune with intention not to kill the opponent.

Bone setting in ancient Japan was primitive to say the least and any severe bone injury usually lead to the recipiant being crippled.

Using the mune then was a particularly crual thing to do in vengence attacks. The crippled Samurai would lose his livelyhood and it would be giving up his katana and becoming a peasant or seppuku.[/QUOTE]

Even if this was the case. Why would you need a reverse blade? It's pointless.

The Sakabato (ÄæÈе¶ sakabat¨­; lit. reverse-edged sword) is unique type of Japanese sword. The katana is the Japanese longsword (Daito), although many Japanese use this word generically as a catch-all word for sword. The sakabatou itself strayed apart from the traditional katanas by having the blade where the spine normally was. It was only used by those who truly believed that no one has the right to take human life, and would risk their life for it because the blade itself lies on the opposite side of the tsuka, facing the wielder. So a hard unexpected hit from the enemy, could force the blade directly back at the wielder.

As for me, I dont use the blade at any established places. I do kendo for that, I practice with my reverse blade with a large group of people that feel the same way about the philosphy of life and death. It's actually an awesome group of people, it's one those "train, meditate, and then talk about eastern philosphy and human nature" type groups.

As for the book, The cover page was long gone when I first bought it. I bought it at the Kyoto Sangyo University Library in Japan. It was tattered and beaten, which was strange because I knew it had been written a while back, but it was not created into a full book till later. The man at the library just happen to practice iaido and he told me that he had read that same book that I myself was holding. He said the name of the book itself was a mystery, but the written word inside the book spoke of a type of sword called a "reverse blade". THe sakabatou was used primarily by pacifistic or dishonored samurai who had taken a vow to protect but not to take life. Because the blade is designed to be non-lethal, the only way the blade can kill is if the wielder chooses rationally to flip the blade and therefore break his vow. I know this idea was a little off from the original philosophy of cutting through your opponent, and I know that for many of you, it's confusing and you don't see the point, but to truly understand you need to feel and understand the meaning of the reverse blade.

If I have made any of you irritaed I apologize, that was not my intention. I merely wished to share my love for this unique sword. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG], but I do wish to say that the sword itself was not created by a cartoon. That is something that irrritates me. HAHA, I guess we cannot all get what we desire, thanks for your replies. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by rianonse (edited 08-20-2004).]

No name for the book huh? I'm sorry but you have fallen in love with a fairy tale. How old are you and when were you in Japan?

I am 23 and have been training with the sword my entire life. Ever since I was a kid I had a great fascination with swords. It wasn't till' about I was 9 that the oriental swords(more specifically the katana)caught my interest. But I did say earlier, the book itself was about the reverse blade and the philosphy behind it, the so called "fairy tale" which I'm sure is in fact a fairy tale, was just an exert from the book. The book itself focuses on the blade. I traveled to japan when I was 19, and I stayed there for about 7 months.

Where in Japan did you stay? Specifically.

You have to understand that a great number of well known and respected Japanese budo scholars are on record as saying that the sakabato is a figment of the imagination of the Kenshin series/manga creator as is that very same creator. Now you come on here and declare that they are all full of it and you know the real truth as laid out in a book with no name.

You're gonna have to build a better case if you expect anyone to believe you. So start by establishing that you were in fact in Japan. There are a lot of kenshin obssessed geeks running around online making all sorts of wild claims. Wouldn't hurt to establish your history a little better.

So where were you in Japan? What address did you live at. What was the nearest train station? What occupation did you hold while you were there? Where are you now, and what is your real name? None of these questions are especially difficult to answer if you are who you say you are and have done the things you say you have done. Better establishing your identity and experiences will help keep people from dismissing you as an anime geek with an overactive imagination.

Also what type of visa were you visiting under? I find it hard to believe you the story about the book. There wasn't a title page inside the book? There are other places to find the title of the book other than the cover. Your in Rancho Cucamongo right? I'm in San Diego, maybe i could see the book?

R

Again, this story just does not make sense.

A non-metal weapon would be a far more logical choice for those who "vowed not to kill" (such as jo or bo)

Plus a warrior could quite easily join a relgious order and not be "forced" to carry a sword at all.

So it just does not make sense to me that someone would go thu all the trouble to make and carry around a reverse blade sword.

Folks had better and more logical options.

One guy even had his sword sheath (specifically the "mouth" as it were) cut to fit so tightly it would be hard to draw quickly-that way he would always have trouble drawing his sword in anger.

I have been to dozens of museums in my life and I always make sure to look at the swords, that's actually usually the point of me going to them: swords.

I have seen hundreds of antique japanese swords: Katana's, Wakizashi's, Tanto's, Tachi's, old bronze swords and even straight cane swords like zatoichi carries. I've also seen a few double edged swords that were used as anciant religous items for Shinto purposes in Japan. Never once have I ever seen a reversed edged sword, Japanese or not. I have seen double edged curved swords but none of them were Japanese.

If there ever was a reversed-edge sword in Japanese history, I would hope that there is a surviving example in a museum somewhere. This would be more than likely since the Japanese used swords as a military weapon for longer in history than any other country and caring and preserving swords was/is more important to the Japanese than to any other culture.

This leads me to believe, quite justifiably that there never was such a sword, and it is a figment of a fiction writers imagination.

Two things. Why would a person who "vowed not to kill" train in a sword art to begin with? Also anyone who is well trained in sword arts will be able to simply turn his sword to not use the blade or not even draw it for that matter. Until you can come up with some academic proof this is written off as wishful thinking.

I train on a regular basis with the japanese daito, and from my experience i can tell you that the idea of a reversed blade sword sounds cool but actually handling one would be quite dangerious to the user. Try taking your long sword and turnig it upside down. The blade of a sword that sharp turned toward yourself in a life or death situation is stupid. Not only does it limit the techniques you could do but balance and time would be thrown off by the weight distibution of the blade. Also the way you draw and re-sheath the sword would not work unless you wanted to dull your blade on your scabbard or slice into your hand. I don't think anyone would waste their time with a sword like this. True, it would be unexpected. But if someone were to find out about it you would be at a loss.

I think it is ironic that the characters you used to write sakabatou mean "Shave appearing fake". It almost makes me wonder if you are posting this as a joke...

If you are serious, then the book you mentioned would HAVE to be in English, for if you knew Japanese, you would know that what you pasted does not literally mean "reverse blade sword."

At any rate, the blade facing inwards makes it more difficult to draw from the saya, the blade could easily drag against the back edge.

Furthermore, the production process of the reverse blade must be special indeed, as I believe the geometry of a reverse blade sword would be very vulnerable to stress. Rather than having a dull side supporting the cutting edge, you have a thin cutting edge supporting the dull side...

im not agreeing with this person, but i will say that the reverse blade itself is real, its on websites that u can order and stuff, as for the art, i dont know, nor do i care really, i dont have time to argue about pointless stuff like is it real or not, but the reverse blade katana ITSELF is real

So are swords from Highlander, Lord of the Rings and various movies. When ever there is a demand someone will supply for it. They are called fantasy swords. Most never really existed in history, like being claimed with this reverse blade, but are readily available on the net. With the popularity of this cartoon it's no surprise they are out there.

no no your very right, im just saying, just as with any other sword, the reverse blade is real, i dont own one ive just seen it, although after reading all the other posts and ideas about it, the weight distributation would be wacked and sheathing it would be messed up, the whole idea is pointless, learn a martial art like karate or taekwondo if u want to harm someone without killin them, that way u can limit how much force u put into the attack, not rely on a peice of metal thats flipped around the wrong way