i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu

if there is i want to know i wish one day to find a master of this art and take it so i can learn stelth power and swordmanship plz give me an answer tell me any thing u no

To each their own I suppose.

There are certainly instructors of ninpo around. There are a couple of large organizations in fact.

Normaly I would send you to http://www.e-budo.com but it's been down for about 3 weeks now. Not sure what the problem is.

I have no idea where else the ninja guys hang out. Try a google on ninpo. From what I understand though, the sword work is a relatively minor part of the ninja curriculum.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 06-16-2004).]

Try a search of this site. There are a few threads on this issue. The best place to start is at these sites.
www.winjutsu.com
www.ninjutsu.com
www.genbukan.org

Those are good resources. You can try www.ninjitsu.com too. Its Rick Tews style. Its not very traditional but seems decent. He has some good skills, and seems to be a very good instructor from what Ive gathered. I would go with the Masaaki Hatsumi instruction if I were you though. You could also check out some Kendo, Iaido, Kenjutsu.... Id go for the kenjutsu if your interested in ninjutsu.
www.ninjutsu.com Bujinkan Ninjutsu home instruction DVD's you might want to check them out if theres not a dojo near you.

The description on the site make it sound a bit cheesey but its really not at all. Its a good deal "if youve had previous traing in any MA" If you ohavent Id do that first before you try to make use of a home study course of any kind.

[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-17-2004).]

Rick Tew trained under Frank Dux. Dux is a scam. Stick with the bujinkan or genbukan.

Where is this Frank guy from? Never heard of him until now.

Like I said before as you too agree Bujinkan is the way to go hands down. Hatsumi is the real deal ...as for Rick Tew, hey he does what he likes to do and is successful so more power to him. Not traditional but from what I have seen he has some value to some of his teachings. And as far as we know he might agree that Frank is a scam too. You never know. So even if your going to go with Rick Tew ...do yourself the favor and go Bujinkan too. Dont leave any stone uncovered.

Frank Dux is the guy the movie Bloodsport was based on. He makes several claims to have been trained in ninjutsu but can't back it up. Rick Tew has trained in other arts too but what he does isn't ninjutsu. A good portion of what he teaches is purely flashy tricks like you might find in the movies.

I was gonna point you towards Rick Tew's might vacuum cleaner technique video, but I can't find it on his site anymore. More's the pity. It was the best bit of comedy I've ever seen online. Poor Rick. He's minding his own business vacuming with a canister vac when suddenly some housework hating thug jumps him. But never fear friends! Master Rick utilizes the secret vacum cleaner techniques to beat the guy with the hose! And at one point, and I swear I'm not makeing this up, he thrust the still running vacuum cleaner's hose into the guys midsection and his assailant acted as if the suction was a mighty blow in and of itself. The humanity!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
I was gonna point you towards Rick Tew's might vacuum cleaner technique video, but I can't find it on his site anymore. More's the pity. It was the best bit of comedy I've ever seen online. Poor Rick. He's minding his own business vacuming with a canister vac when suddenly some housework hating thug jumps him. But never fear friends! Master Rick utilizes the secret vacum cleaner techniques to beat the guy with the hose! And at one point, and I swear I'm not makeing this up, he thrust the still running vacuum cleaner's hose into the guys midsection and his assailant acted as if the suction was a mighty blow in and of itself. The humanity![/QUOTE]

Ya I seen those vids! They are totally retarded. Obviously made to be as stupid as they seem. Come on remember the NINJA BURGER movie...lol. Hes just got a sense of humor.

I agree as well that his style is NOT traditional ninjutsu. But I will not discredit him for his obvious MA abilities.


Oh and by the way HERES THE VIDS!!!! LMAO!!! http://www.totalwarrior.com/Video_Gallery/Video_-_Other/video_-_other.html


[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-20-2004).]

What are the differences between brazilian jui jitsu(i do) nd nin jitsu?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by emma:
What are the differences between brazilian jui jitsu(i do) nd nin jitsu?[/QUOTE]

Well there is actualy Ninjitsu originally taught by the Koga Yamabushi Ninjitsu system originating hundreds of years ago in Japan and then brought to the United States by Frank DuX, and Ninjutsu. Budo Taijutsu "Ninjutsu" taught by Soke Masaaki Hatsumi which also developed hundreds of years ago in japan and was taught to Soke Hatsumi by his sensai Takamatsu Sensei. Both systems are very diverse in applying forms that would show similarities to alot of different arts including BJJ. Obviously there is a bit of emphazise on weapons which to my knowledge is not the focus of BJJ.

Check out http://www.ninjutsu.com and you will get a feel for the tradition and type of techniques we adhere too. Also you can do www.google.com search for "Masaaki Hatsumi". That should give you a good begining on true documented Budo Taijutsu. Also do a google.com search for Koga Yamabushi Ninjitsu.

[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-22-2004).]

[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-22-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by laf7773:
Frank Dux is the guy the movie Bloodsport was based on. He makes several claims to have been trained in ninjutsu but can't back it up. Rick Tew has trained in other arts too but what he does isn't ninjutsu. A good portion of what he teaches is purely flashy tricks like you might find in the movies.[/QUOTE]

Well I think you might want to read a bit of this. http://www.martialinfo.com/styles/survey/nameexp.asp?person=Jan%20Knudsen%20Jensen

I think you will find that Frank Dux is legit and as far as Im concerned hes not a scam but a very well founded artist. That was after about 10 minutes of google searches. So Im not sure where you got your info from as too him being a scam. Also you can check out http://www.frankdux.com for more info on him.

I have also read that Rick Tew seperated from Dux after a disagreement on how the RYU should be managed and thus began Tew Ryu.

You wouldn't also be a fan of George Dillman would you?

A fan? No.

I know who he is yes. I never studied anything directly from him. Why do u ask? Are you a fan of his?

I have done a lot of research on Dux. He has lied about pretty much everything he claims. He can't show proof of any instruction in the martial arts to back up his claims. The only teacher he names just happens to be dead. He can't prove his claim to something like 56 (I forget the exact number)knockouts in a single tournament. He can't prove ever winning the kumite or provide the name of a single person that competed in the same kumite. He has alluded in the past to serving in Vietnam but his discharge papers clearly states no Indochina or Korean service since August 5 1964. The discharge papers on his web site are more than likely fake since it claims he was awarded the good conduct medal with only a little over 6 months of service in the reserves. I'm not sure about the marine corp. but in the navy good conduct medals are only given after 3 years of consecutive service without incident. Since the marine corp. s a brother organization of the navy I would think they are the same.

There is also the fact that I know people in the Bujinkan that have trained with some of his higher ranking students and see video of him. His take on it was they had no concept of timing, distance and they left themselves open for counter on most all the techniques they used. Techniques that were as he put it pointless and flashy. There use of terminology is terrible.

The guy I’m talking about is ranked in the nose bleed section of the Bujinkan so I tend to take his word on this kind of thing.

Try doing some real research on Dux and not just on his site and that of his supporters.

Lets not forget he faked demos too. He used stage glass bottles for breaking. He wuld also break what he told people was bullet proof glass that was actually plexiglass.

First off I understand that you just want to help people from making a possible training mistake. Ive heard this from other people as well. And I do understand your frame of mind.

Listen, honestly I dont care who he is on paper or what ranks he has or if he can prove this or that. I watched his and Tews techniques and they are ok in my book. Im not going to get into I know this guy or you dont know that guy crap...its a waste of time and is simply disrespectful, and dishonorable all the way around..period. And I honestly dont even want to think about any member of the Bujinkan dojo disrespecting any other form for any reason. The thought makes me sick to my stomach. If Duxs style is not for you than fine... its not a problem. If Tews style is not for you than fine. If the Sokes style is not for you than fine. Ninjutsu is not about identically copying anothers style, its about adapting the styles to your own personal form to fit you as a fighter. Sure theres tradition... You know how I feel about Traditional Ninjutsu "Budo Taijutsu". But there are other styles....like the style Dux and Tew have brought to the states. You should not discredit others and thier arts. Its just not right.

[QUOTE]There is also the fact that I know people in the Bujinkan that have trained with some of his higher ranking students and see video of him. His take on it was they had no concept of timing, distance and they left themselves open for counter on most all the techniques they used. Techniques that were as he put it pointless and flashy. There use of terminology is terrible.[/QUOTE]

Well this is because the Bujinkan is the Bujinkan and I personally feel that no other styles can really counter much of it. Isnt that the whole idea? ;] So I can see this as being a fact with most people trying to train with any Bujinkan members.

Well all I know is that I will study both Budo Taijutsu and Koga Yamabushi Ninjitsu and adapt them both. I also am begining study in Sayoc Kali knife fighting. You should check it out too if your not familiar. http://www.sayoc.com hit the forums.

At this point I dont think this subject needs any more from either of us because between the both of us we can pretty much argue and support each other endlessly...lol.

Both Dux and Tew and well known and are exceptional practitioners of thier crafts. Im sure you can agree with that. My hats off to both of them for doing what they love to do and being sucessful at it as well.

[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-22-2004).]

[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-22-2004).]

The system that Dux and Tew claim only exist in there minds. They will tell you that they teach "ninjitsu" and it is different than "ninjutsu". The only difference is the romanization, just like kempo/kenpo or ju jutsu/ju jitsu. Dux's "ninjitsu" is actually a meld of systems he picked up when he was younger. According to one of his own black belts most of Dux's system was actually put together by the other black belts training with him and didn't come from any skills of his. Most of his bb's had training in other systems prior to training with him, what they learned in other systems was put together to make this system. The simple fact is what Tew is teaching is not ninjutsu of any sort and did not come from the Koga Yamabushi. There system is mostly flash on purpose so it appeals to what people think ninjutsu should be. Even though there are some decent techniques most of the time they are not taught properly and unless you have had extensive training before you will not be able to apply them.

"Well this is because the Bujinkan is the Bujinkan and I personally feel that no other styles can really counter much of it. Isnt that the whole idea? ;] So I can see this as being a fact with most people trying to train with any Bujinkan members."

He was referring to there skill in general. It doesn't matter what you study, if you don't know how to apply it or have a proper concept of what it takes to be effective it will show to those who do.

"And I honestly don’t even want to think about any member of the Bujinkan dojo disrespecting any other form for any reason."

There was no disrespect intended in the conversation. He was simply stating fact.

"But there are other styles....like the style Dux and Tew have brought to the states. You should not discredit others and thier arts. Its just not right."

They didn't bring any system to the states from Japan or anywhere else. Dux has even gone so far as to say his system isn't Japanese anymore, only that he based it on Japanese teachings. If it was they wouldn't have so much trouble with terminology like having the wrong definitions of Japanese terms like hanshi. Like you said, I’m only trying to keep people from making a mistake in training, not disrespecting them. Tew just made a bad choice of being connected with Dux, I’m sure he's a nice guy. Most of the Dux students I’ve met are. They also tend to leave the Dux system after seeing what other systems are like. Others prefer the flashy moves regardless of if they are practical.

If you want to learn real ninjutsu stick with Bujinkan or Genbukan.

[QUOTE]If you want to learn real ninjutsu stick with Bujinkan or Genbukan[/QUOTE]

I agree that Bujinkan/Genbukan, like I said in previous posts is the way to go as a primary system. No doubt about it.

Honestly like I said before I dont really care about Dux at all ...good or bad. If Koga is real or not I will find out sooner or later. Koga, Tew, or Dux are not something I put much thought into at all either. I feel for the most part about Tew and Dux as I feel about.... and forgive me for bringing this name into this forum.... Ashida Kim. So that in itself should tell you alot of how I really feel about this Dux, Tew debate without being disrespectful to even Ashida. The just of it is... They all practice a system, if they want to call it Ninjitsu...ok fine. Will I study with Rick or Dux? No. Why? I will study with Soke Hatsumi. Do I think that Dux and Tew are frauds? Its not my right to say either way really. They do what they do, if people find value in that then great for them. I do feel however that Tew should let people know about his history and the history of his art. He has to know that people have instilled a considerable amount of doubt in his instruction by now. Unless of course he does not go online... which I highly doubt. I know if I was Rick I would take some of that money and fly my butt to Japan for awhile and get some formal Bujinkan from Soke Hatsumi to just clean this all up once and for all. I really think he would be a great student and instructor. Hes very good on his feet and very acrobaticly inclined. I have read alot of really terrible things said about Dux online and do take that into consideration whilst constructing my opinion of him, But I will not say hes this or that until it comes out of his mouth personally. I just cannot let myself follow the flock and just believe it because everyone else does. Im sure you can understand that. You know Im for the Bujinkan so you know where my mind and dedication is. I just wont be disrespectful.

[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-23-2004).]

[This message has been edited by DV8R (edited 06-23-2004).]

I've actually trained with Rick Tew, you all seem to be in quite a fuss about his style so let me clear up a few things. First of all he doesn't talk much about his past because he doesn't believe in developing fame by mentioning someone else’s name. With that mentality how would you ever know if it was the best student of a certain teacher or the worst, all they would have to say is I learned under (insert name here) and a hush would fall over the crowd. Second of all his technique is not strictly Ninjitsu and he doesn't claim it to be, if you actually read his take on it all he sees the martial arts as a science, there are only so many techniques and movements that are effective and not a waste of time if not dangerous to do in a real fight. Third of all the things you see on the website are not all practical techniques, to judge something purely on what you see on a site instead of actually taking the time to experience it is ignorant. Many things are taught at his school, everything from video production to survival training. However I've personally spent 6 days a week training in his dojo the majority of which was on fighting and actual fighting not flashy things you'd see on TV. Guys in the ring punching, kicking, throwing, sweeping, and doing anything we can to win a match. There was order and technique too but the focus is not what looks good in the end you could do something totally random and if it won you the match great. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't knock it until you've tried it, in a fight it isn't your teacher's name that is going to save you, it's how you utilize your assets to overcome your opponents. Dux I can't really speak on Rick doesn't really talk much about him. I've talked with him on the phone once briefly and about nothing important but that is about it. I really don't think you should say much about him either with out actually meeting the man, but I don't know him and don't really feel the need to take his side in anything. Rick I know and respect. I've fought with him, trained with him, even hung out with him. He is an all around good guy, funny, fun, and very nice, as well as tough, skilled, and stern. Maybe you should meet the man and see the real thing instead of getting caught up in a great deal of hearsay and rumors.

"An open fist travels faster than a closed one; the same can be said of the mind."

[This message has been edited by kai (edited 07-18-2004).]

First of all he doesn't talk much about his past because he doesn't believe in developing fame by mentioning someone else’s name.

Or maybe he doesn't want to be associated with a fraud any longer.

Second of all his technique is not strictly Ninjitsu and he doesn't claim it to be,

Tew never studied ninjutsu. Some may be similar to ninjutsu techniques but the appliction of his techniques is sloppy.

there are only so many techniques and movements that are effective and not a waste of time if not dangerous to do in a real fight.

I have trained with people from both Tew's and Dux's systems. They lack proper timing and rythem, leave themselves open for counter and had no concept of proper body allignment or body mechnics for that matter. With out these basic fundamental skills any technique is dangerous in a real fight. If Tew were to train with a more legitamate instructor that understands these concepts he may be effective, as it is his system is all flash.

Third of all the things you see on the website are not all practical techniques, to judge something purely on what you see on a site instead of actually taking the time to experience it is ignorant.

A web site is repersentative of your system unless you state otherwise. If you don't want people to think you don't know what you are talking about don't post that sort of garbage on the net. The simple fact is his sword techniques are garbage. His empty hand techniques are taught against a nonresistant apponent and are all flash.

However I've personally spent 6 days a week training in his dojo the majority of which was on fighting and actual fighting not flashy things you'd see on TV. Guys in the ring punching, kicking, throwing, sweeping, and doing anything we can to win a match.

Fighting in the ring is a lot different than fighting on the street.

if you actually read his take on it all he sees the martial arts as a science,

A lot of frauds claim martial science, it's a disclaimer. My concepts are different than yours because this is martial science not martial arts.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't knock it until you've tried it,

I have tried it, i'm still knocking it.

in a fight it isn't your teacher's name that is going to save you, it's how you utilize your assets to overcome your opponents.

But it is your teacher that will teach you HOW to overcome your opponent. Tew teaches you flashy techniques that have no bearing on a real fight, unless you want to loose.

Rick I know and respect. I've fought with him, trained with him, even hung out with him. He is an all around good guy, funny, fun, and very nice, as well as tough, skilled, and stern.

Sounds like your judgment is clouded by your friendship. Go train with a legitimate ninjutsu instructor and you will see the difference.

Maybe you should meet the man and see the real thing instead of getting caught up in a great deal of hearsay and rumors.

I do have first hand experience with it. I posted earlier about the Bujinkan instructor's experience with them because i KNOW he knows what he is talking about. He only confirmed my experience with his.

The simple fact is Tew and Dux are NOT teaching ninjutsu. Tew has had legitimate training in the past and was one of the students of Dux who helped develope Dux ryu. Tew's system is no more ninjutsu than tae kwon do is (not bashing TKD). If you want real ninjutsu look to the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan. Both Genbukan and Jinenkan are derivatives of the 9 ryu that make up the Bujinkan.

you make yourself sound real knowledgeable on all ninjutsu arts. sounds egotisticle to me. you say that tew knows nothing and you are better because you can counter? are you the kid on "karate kid 3" "your karate's a joke". you also said that the site is a representative of who you are, and he never states that the moves are just for show. wrong! he does state that in his articles. so i would defenitly be sure of what you are talking about before posting. mr tew did study with dux but left him and went to study for a time hapkido then with bussey. so if you are so concerned about the world changing to bujinkan then just know that bussey at one time was bujinkan too. hatsumi isn't god and he has never had any experience outside of the dojo. even his own students say that. so if you want flash i guess you need to look at your own soke. i really wish you would get a real point of view before you go out and trash other styles. i would like also to know who you really trained with in tew ryu? you said that they had a lot of sloppy techniques. tell me who? you can't because you are a liar. too bad that the bujinkan has so many of them. another thing you claim that you are the only real ninjutsu but since there are 9 ryu in buji and only 3 teach taijutsu and the others teach samurai jujitsu i hope that you are from the "last 3 ninpo schools". (in the whole entire world)

[This message has been edited by eman (edited 07-22-2004).]

[This message has been edited by eman (edited 07-22-2004).]

You really should read what a person writes before you make a fool of yourself. I didn't say Tew has no skill. I said what he presents on his site is not ninjutsu like he claims it is. What Dux taught isn't ninjutsu and never was. I'm sure Tew does have some skill but he is marketing toward a group that are more interested in flashy techniques that don't work. The people I trained with, Mr. Childress and Mr. Mullens, were accomplished martial artists from other systems and new a good portion of the techniques taught in the Tew system were ineffective. Just like any other system. The difference is when they don't teach you anything more than just technique. Most every technique has it's "window of opportunity" where it is effective. Some have a larger window, or greater range of effectiveness. One of the guys I worked with told me he didn't see where Tew's students were being taught this or the proper timing and range to make some of these techniques effective.

"you make yourself sound real knowledgeable on all ninjutsu arts."

Just passing on facts, and I never said anything about "all ninjutsu arts". Your making assumptions.

"you say that tew knows nothing and you are better because you can counter?"

I never said this.

"you also said that the site is a representative of who you are"

I said it was representative of your system. Get it straight.

"so if you are so concerned about the world changing to bujinkan then just know that bussey at one time was bujinkan too."

Who said anything about "the world changing to bujinkan"? Again more assumptions. I know who Bussey is and I know he was in the Bujinkan. I didn't know Tew studied with him, my mistake. But if Tew left Dux to later study with Bussey, formerly of the Bujinkan, shouldn't that tell you something about the Dux system?

"hatsumi isn't god and he has never had any experience outside of the dojo."

I'm sure you have proof of this, right? Your on a subject you know nothing about.

"even his own students say that."

Name one student that has trained directly under Hatsumi who has said that. Maybe you can't because you are lying?

"so if you want flash I guess you need to look at your own soke."

Who said I study in the bujinkan? I have trained with a few people from there but nothing formal. Again more assumptions.

"I really wish you would get a real point of view before you go out and trash other styles."

Not trashing, just pointing out the facts. Another fact is this IS my point of view. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start flaming people.

"I would like also to know who you really trained with in tew ryu? you said that they had a lot of sloppy techniques. tell me who? you can't because you are a liar."

Already pointed them out. Your turn. Who are the "students" making these statements about Hatsumi?

"another thing you claim that you are the only real ninjutsu but since there are 9 ryu in buji and only 3 teach taijutsu and the others teach samurai jujitsu I hope that you are from the "last 3 ninpo schools". (in the whole entire world)"

Another assumption. I never said this, at all. There are three well known schools. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jeninkan. The soke's of Genbukan and Jeninkan are both students of Hatsumi's who received menkyo kaiden. There are other systems of ninjutsu out there but these are the easiest legitimate forms to find.

Now maybe you should go back and reread the posts and stop making assumptions. You know what they say about people who ASSuME too much. Your entire post is pure assumption. Stop getting your undies in a wad and let this thread die. It served it's purpose long ago.



[This message has been edited by laf7773 (edited 07-23-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DV8R:
A fan? No.

I know who he is yes. I never studied anything directly from him. Why do u ask? Are you a fan of his?[/QUOTE]

I've seen a tape of Dillman "instructing" a group of students in sword techniques.

I guess I am something of a fan, but perhaps not in a way that might be considered complimentary [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

how can i let something die that has no merit or is completely false? i will admit that dux's backround is really shakey and he needs to come up with some real proof of his claims before anyone can start really taking him serious. his skill and the skill of his black belts is very good and i have seen them in action. as far as timing goes you might want to remember that the instructor can only teach you the technique and the way to apply it. if you go off and do your own thing... even with the dojo patch on your gi that is something on you. i really think those students really needed some more practice. the 9 ryu i'm talking about are in the bujinkan and i wasn't referring to the other schools (genbukan, jenikan) one of the students of hatsumi's is mr. severe that says hatsumi has no experience outside the dojo. as far as flash... well you and i both know that there is yin and yang to any style worth practicing. i have trained with multiple style practicioners. i even found flash in the jkd system that i saw. why not have some flash? why not practice moves that aren't necessarily going to work outside the dojo? as long as you learn that those moves are just for show... then there should be no problem. as for me i enjoy my martial arts training and even the flash moves that are just for show put some spice in the mix. mr. tew teaches you both sides so that you are well rounded. i know many bujinkan practicioners and they only see hatsumi from a distance when they go to train under him. so all they get is theory. on the other hand tew sensei shows you the moves on a one on one basis so that you are the most knowledgeable and effective. please don't take my words and try to twist them so you can make yourself look like you know more than you do. and those practicioners that you mentioned you said are from other styles not even tew ryu. am i saying tew sensei is the best and there is no one better?... no. all i'm saying is that he is an accomplished martial artist and a great instructor. so when you get on and say his moves are not ninjutsu you would have to say that bussey isn't ninjutsu either. tew trained with dux when he was a kid and then became a black belt under bussey. so why can't he name what he does ninjutsu? even tew says himself that it isn't traditional at all and is a very modern approach. he even says that his school isn't for you if you want the traditional stuff.(which by the way hatsumi seems to be modernizing his style too, so what is tradition?) all i'm sayin is don't get on and trash other styles ("the facts") when you have a limited knowledge of that style. just admit you don't know and then let the thread die.

[This message has been edited by eman (edited 07-23-2004).]

Tew ryu is not ninjutsu. Just because you want to call it that doesn't make it so.

"as far as timing goes you might want to remember that the instructor can only teach you the technique and the way to apply it."

You can't learn to apply a technique if you don't learn proper timing and range. Lessons you get from your instructor.

"if you go off and do your own thing... even with the dojo patch on your gi that is something on you."

This sentence makes no sense what so ever.

"one of the students of hatsumi's is mr. severe that says hatsumi has no experience outside the dojo."

I guess your talking about Ralph Severe? If so did he say this to you personally? Or was it second hand information?

"the 9 ryu i'm talking about are in the bujinkan and i wasn't referring to the other schools (genbukan, jenikan)"

I was referring to other legitimate ninjutsu systems, not the ryu with in them.

"why not have some flash? why not practice moves that aren't necessarily going to work outside the dojo?"

There is a difference in flashy techniques that aid in learning other important lessons and techniques that are just to show off.

"as for me i enjoy my martial arts training and even the flash moves that are just for show put some spice in the mix."

Good for you, stop crying over spilled milk. If it makes you happy then let it be. Give your oppinion of Tew's system and don't come into a forum attacking someone you know nothing about. I never attacked Tew personally, Dux yes i did. All i said was his system is not ninjutsu and the techniques on his site and those shown to me were ineffective.

"i know many bujinkan practitioners and they only see hatsumi from a distance when they go to train under him."

Hatsumi's student base is also much larger than Tew's. Hatsumi also has several very highly qualified instructors a few of which have received menkyo kaiden so it's not needed for him to train one on one with every one in the system.

" please don't take my words and try to twist them so you can make yourself look like you know more than you do."

I haven't twisted anything nor do i intend to. You have no idea what my knowledge of this subject is. Once again, stop making assumptions.

"and those practicioners that you mentioned you said are from other styles not even tew ryu."

No i said they also had training in other styles. This is what lead them to leave. They had nothing bad to say about Tew, only that they were less than impressed with the system.

"am i saying tew sensei is the best and there is no one better?... no. all i'm saying is that he is an accomplished martial artist and a great instructor."

I haven't stated anything different. Just maybe he wasn't taught these things. If he only received a shodan form Bussey what makes you think he is qualified to teach ninjutsu? Shodan is far from obtaining enough knowledge of a system to teach it.

"so why can't he name what he does ninjutsu?"

For the same reason he can't call it tae kwon do, krav maga or any other art, because it's not. Why not Tew Ryu martial arts? The fact is he is doing something several others have done. Take from various systems they have studied to form their own system. Then give it a popular name to attract students. The problem is most of the "founders" haven't attained the level of understanding in order to found a system. Not saying they aren't good at what they do, but there is a big difference in a 5th degree in one system, a 3rd degree in another combining them as on to teach and someone that is of 8th degree or higher in at least one system starting their own. I'm only using the dan system as an example as not all 8th dans are created equal. You get the point though.

".(which by the way hatsumi seems to be modernizing his style too, so what is tradition?)"

All systems must move forward or they get left behind. It's when you abandon tradition all together that some make mistakes. You also hear a lot of "founders" claim a "modern/ non traditional" system in order to cover the fact that what they are teaching or calling their system is misleading.

"all i'm sayin is don't get on and trash other styles ("the facts") when you have a limited knowledge of that style. just admit you don't know and then let the thread die."

Again, not trashing. Just pointing out facts from FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what i have seen of the system and it's origins. I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings, but Tew ryu isn't ninjutsu no matter how much you want to believe it is. Dux did not bring any ninjutsu system over from Japan. It's obvious what Tew is teaching is not from the bujinkan. If his only two claims to ninjutsu is Dux and Bussey then what he is teaching can't be ninjutsu. If he only obtained a black belt from Bussey, he is not teaching ninjutsu.

If you call a dogs tail a leg then how many legs does it have? 5? No. Just because you call it a leg doesn't mean it is.

that was a horrible comeback about a dog.

the fact is if i learn under bussey and i become one of his black belts then i have learned ninjutsu (bussey way back when). the same if i studied under hoban or van donk or even hayes. so if i become one of their black belts and i have been given the right to teach by my instructor/sensei then i can call what i teach ninjutsu.

ralph severe told me that himself by the way. in fact he still teaches bujinkan his way which he calls kamiyama ninjutsu. he still claims its bujinkan but now honed for combat.

i think tew sensei doesn't talk much about dux because of the scandel dux brought on himself. he wants people to judge him by his school not his lineage.

i can train under hatsumi and take what i learned and make it horrible but just because i carry a bujinkan patch doesn't mean i'm good.(just as an example, not trying to say that bujinkan isn't good) when you are given the right to teach and do your own thing from your instructor then i don't see why you can't.

so lets judge a man by his skill. what tew says is that he teaches a modern ninjutsu and if you want traditional you should look elsewhere. even though he has is "dans" in hapkido he doesn't claim to teach hapkido. what he calls it is tew ryu ninjutsu or rtms (rick tew's martial science) so that way people looking for goofy costum warriors won't come knocking on his door.

hope this doesn't annoy you. the fact that i point out your mistakes.

(note the changes)

[This message has been edited by eman (edited 07-23-2004).]

eman,

First of all you are never going to get your point across on an internet message board without using at least semi-correct grammar and sentance structure.

You also might try some paragraphs as they tend to help seperate different thoughts into nice neat sections.

This one reminds me of a scene from that Sylvester Stallone movie about the mountain rescue team and the bad guy Jon Lithgow.

One of the underlings tells Mr. Lithgow to "Get off my back". To wit Mr. Lithgow replies "Off...I haven't got on yet"


[Notice the paragraphs]

Go ahead and bring the beng quan to him Lane. I am enjoying the sh!t out of this since sojowbobo(means founder) isn't around to play with anymore.


Scott

was trying to save on space! whoops!

that was a horrible comeback about a dog

It is true though.

the fact is if i learn under bussey and i become one of his black belts then i have learned ninjutsu (bussey way back when)

It's now obvious you don't know what you are talking about. Shodan is when you start learning. Up till then you are only learning basics. Some shodans may be allowed to teach under supervision but they are not knowledgable enough about the art to teach it full time.

the same if i studied under hoban or van donk or even hayes.

All students of bujinkan.

so if i become one of their black belts and i have been given the right to teach by my instructor/sensei then i can call what i teach ninjutsu.

But not the right to create your own system and call it ninjutsu. Tew is not teaching bujinkan. So regardless of if he was promoted to shodan by Bussey and given permission to teach, what he is teaching is not ninjutsu.

ralph severe told me that himself by the way.

I'll e-mail him and ask him.

in fact he still teaches bujinkan his way which he calls kamiyama ninjutsu. he still claims its bujinkan but now honed for combat.

I'm well aware of what he teaches. He was promoted to 8th dan in '92 and 9th dan in '02.

i think tew sensei doesn't talk much about dux because of the scandel dux brought on himself. he wants people to judge him by his school not his lineage.

May have been the best thing he did. But a shodan in the bujinkan doesn't mean he is teaching ninjutsu. He may have taken cues from ninjutsu for his system but the only reason he calls his system what he does is for publicity.

i can train under hatsumi and take what i learned and make it horrible but just because i carry a bujinkan patch doesn't mean i'm good

Another assumption. I never said it does. I never said bujinkan is the best. I never said bujinkan is the only ninjutsu. I only said to look to the bujinkan, genbukan and jinenkan for legitamate ninjutsu. Why did i point out these three? Because they are the most wide spread and easiest to find in the states or any where else for that matter.

when you are given the right to teach and do your own thing from your instructor then i don't see why you can't.

Simple. Let's say that Bussey promoted Tew to shodan and gave him permission to teach bujinkan. Tew made up his own system. This system doesn't resemble bujinkan in any way, more than likely because it was more influenced by hapkido, tae kwon do and ju jutsu. If this is so. Why call it ninjutsu at all? To get students. Why not just leave it at RTMS? It is obvious to anyone with any knowledge of ninjutsu that Tew is not teaching it.

what tew says is that he teaches a modern ninjutsu and if you want traditional you should look elsewhere

You should also look elsewhere if you want real ninjutsu.

hope this doesn't annoy you. the fact that i point out your mistakes.

You have only pointed out one mistake. That Tew trained with Bussey. I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt. I'm also sorry if i make it sound like you have wasted months or years training in Tew's system, it's not entended. I did message Mr. Severe to get his take on your comment.

Go ahead and bring the beng quan to him Lane. I am enjoying the sh!t out of this since sojowbobo(means founder) isn't around to play with anymore.

I do kinda miss that twit in a sick sadistic sort of way. Or was it tw@t? />
With a heavy hand.

tew trained with dux when he was a kid and then became a black belt under bussey.

There is also the fact that Tew didn't just train with Dux as a kid. He was Dux's top black blet and a student of Roy Martina's when he went to TX to train with Bussey. So with only a shodan from Bussey and a first degree in hapkido being his only legitamate rank how is he teaching his own system? Dux certainly isn't teaching real ninjutsu. Tew is not teaching real ninjutsu. Here is a quote from one of Tew's own students about something that happened at the Bussey kamp:

But, it still doesn't change the fact that a guy who didn't know a single legitimate martial art, (except Dr. Roy Martina's system of combat, Tjakai Martial Science Systems I believe, later on Rick earned a black belt in Hapkido as well,) beat a legitimate fighter from a different system. So it comes back around full circle.

Tew may have some skill, i never said he didn't, but he is not teaching ninjutsu.

i don't know where you got shodan from i think that was your assumption

It was implied by you that he received shodan from Bussey. If not shodan then what? Keep in mind my understanding is Bussey only received yondon in the bujinkan.

Here is the response from Mr. Severe. Note his take on Tew ryu ninjutsu.

"From what Hatsumi sensei has told me he has no fighting experience other than judo, boxing, kendo.. sparring.. but no fighting.. outside the dojo..
He studied koryu, boxing, soccer, kendo, judo and aikido.. but everyone knows this.. before he got with Takamatsu sensei.
This is what I was told by him... personally.
Thanks for the question..
But Tew ninjutsu..
Well..
What ranking does he have in any traditional ninjutsu system.. and it has to really be Togakure ryu ninpo taijutsu..
If not. well most likely a fake.
But that's my opinion.
ralph"

Another that doesn't believe Tew ryu is ninjutsu.


[This message has been edited by laf7773 (edited 07-23-2004).]

Scott we really need a spell check on here,

[This message has been edited by laf7773 (edited 07-23-2004).]

Alright, let's keep this simple, I have a life outside of the internet so instead of taking cracks at you, or your style, or going back and forth with you a million times for the next six weeks about how I think Rick's system is great and you think it's horrible, I'm just going to do this. All arguments aside unless you are a great master of the martial arts and are world famous; you really shouldn't be directing people who don't know a great deal about martial arts. Leave it up to them. Here are a couple links to some short clips, let people who are looking for answers choose themselves which is more realistic, better, whatever. Martial Arts tends to be a lot like religion, you get a lot of people whining about what they think are significant points and differences and why they are right, but in the end it doesn't really accomplish anything does it? A hundred years from now no one is going to care, ultimately you can become a good fighter in whatever style you choose, and it’s more an individual thing than the teacher or the style itself. A note though you could be nicer to the people who debate you, when you start slinging insults at people it makes you look less intelligent, like you are scrambling for something to say. People often receive better when you haven't caused them to close off by throwing out what you think is a snappy come back. Might help you get less angry retorts in any other debates you may get yourself into. Ultimately that's up to you though, just like the decision of what style to take is up to the person who is deciding to take one, not those of us who have developed bias towards our own styles.

Hatsumi: http://www.winjutsu.com/source/source_video/hatsumi05.mov

Rick Tew: http://www.totalwarrior.com/Video_Galler..._punches_a.html

Check them out for yourselves. I hope this brings a little peace to this thread.

[This message has been edited by kai (edited 07-24-2004).]

All arguments aside unless you are a great master of the martial arts and are world famous; you really shouldn't be directing people who don't know a great deal about martial arts.

What does being a master and world fame have o do with advise based on personal experience.

Leave it up to them.

It is up to them. I never said they had to go with these styles. I only made suggestions based on my opinion and that of others I know, some of whom are masters.

Here are a couple links to some short clips, let people who are looking for answers choose themselves which is more realistic, better, whatever.

That's funny. Your trying to put Hatsumi's system in a bad light by showing some pressure point techniques compared to Tew's punch defense. The clip of Hatsumi is of more advanced techniques that these guys aren't going to see in the beginning. If you are going to show clips for comparison at least show clips of similar subject matter.

Martial Arts tends to be a lot like religion, you get a lot of people whining about what they think are significant points and differences and why they are right, but in the end it doesn't really accomplish anything does it? A hundred years from now no one is going to care,

What is significant is the fact that there are people claiming to teach something they are not. Tew's system is not ninjutsu, he only calls it that to get students.

ultimately you can become a good fighter in whatever style you choose, and it’s more an individual thing than the teacher or the style itself.

This is true and false. If you follow one instructor that is teaching poor techniques you will not develop the skills to be a good fighter unless you cross train with someone else.

A note though you could be nicer to the people who debate you,

I have been nice. Eman came in with the insults. Anyone who responds with a level head will get the same in return. Any one responding with poor grammar, insults and lies will be responded to in a less civil manner.

It's simple if you talk to most people with any knowledge of ninjutsu they will tell you Tew's system is not ninjutsu. You talk to most people involved with kenjutsu/iaido and they will tell you Tew's sword techniques are laughable and dangerous. If Tew hasn't had extensive training in Togakure ryu ninpo taijutsu, his system is not ninjutsu. I have never said Tew has no skill but only that the techniques he shows on his site and the ones I have seen in person are flashy and ineffective. Like I said, if you like Tew ryu then good for you. If you want legitimate ninjutsu, go elsewhere. Again, sorry if I hurt your feelings.

so glad you are worried about our feelings.

you seem to know alot about the ninjutsu arts for someone who said/implied that he is not a ninjutsu practicioner.

i have to agree with kai on this that in a hundred years no one will care. so why can't we agree to disagree and admit that i have made no false claims about myself or my sensei?

i really don't know what art you study, if you do at all, but you are in no way related to hatsumi's art or tew's. so all you have is your opinion on subject matter that you have no experience practicing.

i'm not worried about your feelings so i won't apologize. (if you get offended with what someone says on the net then you have problems)

if tew learned from bussey and became higher than a shodan... and was given permission by bussey to teach and go off on his own then why do you have a problem with it? i see no reason that tew should have to proclaim to the world that he doesn't teach ninjutsu because that is the art he studied.

it would be the same if tew sensei or even hatsumi told gave me permission to go off and teach his style and then told me that i couldn't use his name. thats weird. so the genbukan, jenikan, hayes, and bussey can never teach anyone ninjutsu. sounds really weird to me.

i guess those are you opinions though and you are an apparent authority on the subject at hand.

you seem to know alot about the ninjutsu arts for someone who said/implied that he is not a ninjutsu practicioner.

What's wrong with educating your self on different arts? I am not a current practitioner but I have trained with people from both systems.

i have to agree with kai on this that in a hundred years no one will care.

Then why do you keep coming back?

so why can't we agree to disagree and admit that i have made no false claims about myself or my sensei?

With the exception of your comment about Mr. Severe telling you personally about Hatsumi. Reading something on a forum or web site doesn't mean he told YOU anything. He doesn't seem to recall you or Tew ryu for that matter. This wasn't a discussion of your claims. This is about the fact that Tew isn't teaching ninjutsu, regardless of how much you want to believe it.

i really don't know what art you study, if you do at all, but you are in no way related to hatsumi's art or tew's.

Only through friends.

so all you have is your opinion on subject matter that you have no experience practicing.

I have trained with both, I do have first hand knowledge to base my opinions on.

i'm not worried about your feelings so i won't apologize. (if you get offended with what someone says on the net then you have problems)

Obviously you have been offended and have taken this personally even though nothing was directed at you. You joined this forum for the sole purpose of disputing what I have said. You have not posted in any other forum area or thread for that matter. You came into the thread with personal attacks against me when all I have done is criticize Tew for calling his system something it's not. He is a talented martial artist but in my opinion and that of many others (the majority of the ninjutsu community) not versed well enough in ninjutsu to found his own system of ninjutsu. This system is nothing more than another MMA.

if tew learned from bussey and became higher than a shodan... and was given permission by bussey to teach and go off on his own then why do you have a problem with it?

Last I heard Bussey was only given permission to teach, not promote other teachers, at least not under bujinkan. You have yet to say what rank Tew did achieve under Bussey. Let's look at this though. Your saying Tew can teach ninjutsu because he was taught by Bussey. Bussey was taught by Hatsumi, but Tew's system looks nothing like bujinkan. Looks more like a mix of tae kwon do and jujutsu. Nothing wrong with that but don't call it ninjutsu because you've had limited training in ninjutsu.

it would be the same if tew sensei or even hatsumi told gave me permission to go off and teach his style and then told me that i couldn't use his name.

This isn't the case at hand.

so the genbukan, jenikan, hayes, and bussey can never teach anyone ninjutsu.

All the people/organizations you mention have one thing in common. Permission to teach. All but Bussey are permitted to promote teachers. The only ones above that have received full transmission of the system is Tanemura/Genbukan and Unsui/Jinenkan. There are others that have received full transmission but these are the only two to go off under a different name. Hayes can full well use the name ninjutsu in his system due to his judan rank. Bussey was a shidoshi-ho having authority to teach only, not promote teachers in ninjutsu. If it makes you feel any better I’ve seen plenty of discussion criticizing Bussey for his American Ninjutsu.

My opinion of Tew's system is just that. I only gave my suggestion as to who to turn to for legitimate ninjutsu. Most of my criticism was directed at Dux to begin with.

Enjoy your dreams.

enjoy your dreams

thanks for your permission. lol!

i do agree that your post was mostly aimed at tearing down dux, and all i was trying to say was that you associate tew with only dux and that indeed is not the case. tew sensei did have 2 other instructors that can back there lineage.

re: bussey's rank... bussey took out dan systems in his style of ninjutsu and you can find that on his site www.robertbussey.com. so tew was given permission on his skill not his dan. sorry to bust your bubble.

i have no problem with you but i do have a problem with giving tew sensei a bad name.

mr severe doesn't know me by eman because when he mentioned that it was under another forum about hayes. i will not go into other forums because i'm not the type to be giving all types of links.

according to bussey's info he was not given rank in bujinkan but in fact togakure ryu. apart from that he also turned down 4 times the promotion to be the only representative of ninjutsu in america. (if i read it correctly) he turned it down because he didn't feel it was right for him.

about posting on other threads... well i do this at work and i don't have the time to be trying to find what post i want to post on. but i will try to get more involved now just for you.

[QUOTE]mr severe doesn't know me by eman because when he mentioned that it was under another forum about hayes. i will not go into other forums because i'm not the type to be giving all types of links.[/QUOTE]

Of course not, then it would be to easy to verify/falsify your story.

K

re: bussey's rank... bussey took out dan systems in his style of ninjutsu and you can find that on his site www.robertbussey.com. so tew was given permission on his skill not his dan. sorry to bust your bubble.

Like i said before, I’m only using dan grades as an example. You can be a judan in any system, doesn't mean you can teach. Point being if Bussey wasn't authorized to promote instructors in ninjutsu then he can't.

i have no problem with you but i do have a problem with giving tew sensei a bad name.

I'm not trying to give anyone a bad name, well Dux but he does it to him self. Pointing out inaccuracies and inconsistencies is all i did. This wasn't done to keep Tew from having new students but to inform prospective students of subjects of interest about these styles so they can make an informed decision for them self.

mr severe doesn't know me by eman because when he mentioned that it was under another forum about hayes.

You alluded to the fact that you knew Mr. Severe and that he told you this personally.

ralph severe told me that himself by the way.

This vise, Mr. Severe said it on another forum. I understand you wanted to make a point but let's tell it like it happened. I can ask him if you would like to make public the nickname used on the forum you are talking about.

according to bussey's info he was not given rank in bujinkan but in fact togakure ryu.

Hatsumi doesn't rank in the individual ryu. They are taught as one with a focus on one or two ryu each year basing it one what ever the focus of the training happens to be at that time. In the past the system was referred to as Togakore ryu. Hatsumi changed the name trying to get away from the stereo type of the name ninjutsu. This is why it's called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

apart from that he also turned down 4 times the promotion to be the only representative of ninjutsu in america

This is partially true. He was one of the first, but there were others. It's rumored he did refuse the godan test but only because he is a devout Christian and believed the sakki test was against his religion. This is said to be partially what caused him to leave.

I can say as i look at Tew does posses some of Bussey's movements, but not so much the technical aspects. Some of the techniques are similar, but not utilizing the flow, angling, distancing, and overall relationship between tori and uke as found in the Bujinkan.

It's safe to say Tew's system hold a ninjutsu influence but nothing more. Not enough to call it ninjutsu as there is much more to it than that. Since Bussey was never authorized to promote teachers in ninjutsu (very few are) Tew's system can't be considered true ninjutsu. I believe Hatsumi has just recently given permission to a very select couple of people to administer the sakki test and give full permission to teach. Everyone else can only promote up to yondan.

the forum was posted on www.martialtalk.com so that way no one thinks that i'm falsifying words. look for yourself if you don't believe me kempoman. nice support on this site from the moderators though. makes you fell welcome. good job!

i know what the bujinkan is called now by the way. bussey was given this before it became the bujin. when everything was still togakure ryu. much like hayes.

i never stated/alluded that i knew mr. severe personally. you assumed that. all i said was that "even his own students say that." you then asked which one trying to call me a liar, and trying to call my bluff. you then found out for yourself that i wasn't bluffing but stating fact.

i will say this. i have never spoken lies or half truths. the full truth is far too much fun.

i will stand on the fact that hayes, bussey, tew or anyone that has real ninjutsu training can very well call what they teach "ninjutsu". even if they don't have your permission.

i know what the bujinkan is called now by the way. bussey was given this before it became the bujin. when everything was still togakure ryu. much like hayes.

So what is your argument here? This is the same thing i just said.

i never stated/alluded that i knew mr. severe personally

ralph severe told me that himself by the way.

You made it wound like he told you specifically, not that it was a post on a message board.

you then asked which one trying to call me a liar, and trying to call my bluff.

I just wanted to know who you claimed told me that himself. But talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

i would like also to know who you really trained with in tew ryu? you said that they had a lot of sloppy techniques. tell me who? you can't because you are a liar.

you then found out for yourself that i wasn't bluffing but stating fact.

I knew Mr. Severe had made comments like this. I was just curious who you were referring to.

i will say this. i have never spoken lies or half truths. the full truth is far too much fun.

This is doubtful. No one has been 100% truthful all the time. Don't over exaggerate.

i will stand on the fact that hayes, bussey, tew or anyone that has real ninjutsu training can very well call what they teach ninjutsu. even if they don't have your permission

There is a big difference in Hayes, Bussey and Tew. Anyone who knows anything about legitimate ninjutsu knows what Tew is teaching is just another mma and most don't even take him seriously. Like i said before, if you enjoy your system then don't worry about it. If you don't take what is said on web forums to heart then why are you hear? The fact is you and kai are more than likely class mates and he came running to class and told you all about the @sshole talking about your system. You wanted to be the savior and put me in my place, didn't quite work did it. After you have spent more time training and are exposed to other systems more you will start to see the difference i'm talking about. If you want to continue arguing over semantics, go ahead.

look for yourself if you don't believe me kempoman. nice support on this site from the moderators though. makes you fell welcome. good job!

The mods aren't here to make you feel welcome. I'm sure kempoman will educate you on what his position on this forum is.

The simple fact is i posted my opinion on an open forum in response to someone looking for ninjutsu training. You don't like it and made your point, but you are now going off on tangents, looking for any way to make it look as if i don't know what i'm talking about. I've been around the block a few times and know a bit more than you think.

Back to Mr. Severe telling you himself about Hatsumi. He wasn't even talking to you. He was responding to Don Roley.

I understand you are not a bujinkan supporter and you seem to prefer people who have trained in the bujinkan but left. That is fine, nothing wrong with that. But a few years of training in legitimate ninjutsu doesn't mean what Tew is teaching is ninjutsu.

i'm glad you opinion means so much to you.

i really don't know how many times you have been around the block because you are never clear on what your relationship to ninjutsu is.

anyway i believe i made my point. if you don't want me to be here i can leave if you like. so that way you can go back and dominate everyone with your close minded CONscepts.

just let me know and i'll disappear. why you have such a problem with me and your hatred for me is so strong i guess will remain a mystery to me.

re: mr. severe... i said told me that because i was active on that thread and if you can see there was alot of cross talk between everyone there.

about me getting more experience: i guess when i get another stripe on my white belt i can deserve to speak to you or speak my mind. how about this?... you let me know when i can talk or state my opinion.

and i do believe moderators should make you feel welcome... at least at first. not just go on and start saying that i'm falsifying information. imo

well i think i've said enough. all we are doing is going around in circles and that doesn't resolve anything. i do favor anyone that gets experience and betters/hones it for them. i.e. ed parker, bruce lee, hayes, bussey, tew, and me! hee hee! well maybe not me but all the others i mentioned. lol!

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by eman:
look for yourself if you don't believe me kempoman. nice support on this site from the moderators though. makes you fell welcome. good job![/QUOTE]

HOO BOY!

Firstly, I take no one or nothing anyone says at face value. I am a skeptic. I require evidence in order to either substanciate or falsify a claim.

Secondly, my job as a moderator calls for me to help 'Moderate' threads. You were clearly and purposely misundestanding Lane's main point. Which by the way is why this thread is so long.

In a debate points are made and questions asked and answered. Statements are called into question and then EVIDENCE is presented to support said claims. Why would me asking for you to support a direct quote from a well know martial arts instructor with a link to the post or e-mail would make you feel unwelcome is foreign to me. We don't know each other here why shuold I believe anyone on this board without evidence.

Even those who I take advice from or give adivce to here are checked out by my skeptical nature. You think I'm bad here go see the "Energy Arts" section and look at the calls for evidence there.

My comment was not meant to make you feel welcome or unwelcome. A request to provide evidence is benign.

You as anyone else should feel welcome to post here and won't get guff from the mods unless you are being a jerk, spamming the board or post something potientially libelous (Hence many requests for evidence).

ON a non-moderator note...The overall point is that "You can call an apple an orange just because it is a fruit but it is still an apple".

Continue to ignore it if you wish but Rick Tew's system is not ninjutsu. It may be an excellent martial art and he an excellent martial artist but that does not go to the main point that was made.

Kempoman


[This message has been edited by Kempoman (edited 07-27-2004).]

lets take your example and see if i can break it down for you kempoman

ninjutsu is the fruit. i am not calling bujin, toshindo, or anything else ninjutsu rtms all i'm saying is that they are all ninjutsu if you like it or not. i'm not saying apples are oranges or anything else just that they are both fruit.

i'm glad you opinion means so much to you.

Yes it does. That's why it's my opinion. You act like you’re the only one allowed to voice their opinion. Unless it agrees with yours.

i really don't know how many times you have been around the block because you are never clear on what your relationship to ninjutsu is.

Then you aren't paying attention. I am not currently training in ninjutsu but have trained in the past with practitioners from different styles of ninjutsu and fully intend on returning to ninjutsu very soon. Before you ask, why not just stick with one dojo? i'll tell you. Being stationed on a ship and doing 4 deployments in 5 years hasn't provided me with more than a month in port San Diego in that 5 years. Being on 2 ships in 5 years, one being a carrier with over 5000 people on board for deployment there was several opportunities to train with people from several different systems, not just ninjutsu. Now on shore duty i will be able to resume a normal training schedule soon.

if you don't want me to be here i can leave if you like.

There is no reason for me to want you to leave.

so that way you can go back and dominate everyone with your close minded CONscepts.

I'm not dominating. I only give INFORMED opinions and facts.

why you have such a problem with me and your hatred for me is so strong i guess will remain a mystery to me.

It will have to remain a mystery to you and i both, because i don't know what you are talking about. If i've been short with you in portions of my posts it's a response to you and your sarcasm. Remember you came into this forum in order to bash me, not the other way around.

re: mr. severe... i said told me that because i was active on that thread and if you can see there was alot of cross talk between everyone there.

But you were vague and misleading. Try telling things like they happen and things would have gone more simply.

about me getting more experience: i guess when i get another stripe on my white belt i can deserve to speak to you or speak my mind. how about this?... you let me know when i can talk or state my opinion.

Do you have a problem with comprehension? What i was saying after you have been training longer and have had more experience in other systems you will start to understand why there is a separation in being allowed to teach and being able to promote teachers. I would have thought the same way you do 10 years ago. I wasn’t putting you down, just stating that after you learn to question thing from time to time you will have a better understanding. Not saying you have to consider everything people tell you a lie, but research on your own. Ninjutsu isn't all about flips, cartwheels and flashy techniques.

ninjutsu is the fruit. i am not calling bujin, toshindo, or anything else ninjutsu rtms all i'm saying is that they are all ninjutsu if you like it or not. i'm not saying apples are oranges or anything else just that they are both fruit.

What he is saying is the fruit is martial arts. Ninjutsu, kenpo, ju jutsu ect.. are the types of fruit. Just because you want it to be ninjutsu doesn't mean it is.

How long did Tew train with Bussey by the way?

[QUOTE] Originall posted by eman
what tew says is that he teaches a modern ninjutsu [/QUOTE]

How can that be? Ninjutsu is a classical martial art. It was used by criminals, spies, soldiers and civilians in feudal japan. Something created in feudal Japan is not modern. So if Tew is teaching a "modern" art it can't be ninjutsu, because ninjutsu is a classical art. I realize that all arts have changed over the years, but that does not mean the art is modern; it means that the art is classical, with modern applications and modifications.

By the way, I ignored this post until now, even though I check this forum every day; Because I think that these "ninjutsu" threads that seem to pop up at least once a week on this site, usually started by a newbie to this forum, are boring. But this thread was not, laff773 as always has great, well written opinions, presented clearly and thoughtfully. And eman, I know you are new to this site, and thank you for joining. I disagree with some of what you say (my opinion, that's all) but you give your opinion clearly and in nice long, well thought out posts, much better than most of the newbies who post 3 sentences, all in caps and use enough chat-room slang to make you drown in ascii code.

I think I know exactly how this thread is going to end: Eventually one or the other of you is going to either get bored of posting on this thread or you are both going to have to agree to disagree, laff773 and I did this a while ago on a "sword tricks" thread. We argued, but I'd like to think we weren't rude or ignorant and we both presented good cases for our opinions. You are a good member here eman, you should post on some other threads too.

laff...etc. i always forget what the names are when i start to post... does that happen to anyone else?

anyway i understand what kempoman was trying to imply about fruit, i just thought i would put my twist on it. also i would like to imagine i comprehend just fine. at least thats what the driver on the short bus told me. hee hee!

javaman: first off thanks for the support. i can always agree to disagree. i like other people's opinions. one man's steal sharpens anothers.

re: modern ninjutsu. if you look at the stephen k hayes thread on www.martialtalk.com you will see what i'm trying to say by modern. think of it as more of a modern approach. according to the bujin guys there on that thread... even hatsumi has changed and modernized his approach.

i know and realize ninjutsu is not about flying and flips etc. i am not some child who saw a movie and thought thats what i wanted to do. i have trained with other style practicioners and i still feel my art is superior. in fact i have had practicioners try and pull me to other styles of ninjutsu, but i remain firm in my opinion and feelings. or i would have switched along time ago.

before i started my "budo" road i studied each art carefully and extensivly. in fact when i decided ninjutsu was the way to go... and after researching all the different styles... i made my decision. i still believe it was a wise one. i even remember checking out ashida kim's stuff. (before i knew better) i just couldn't look at him in his ski mask and think has this what ninjutsu become? there has to be something better.

laff, i respect your opinion, but you should admit that it is not the only one out there that could be correct.

re: how long tew trained with bussey? well you can probably ask him yourself if you want a certain amount of time. i would imagine quite extensive being that he was a chief instructor.

[This message has been edited by eman (edited 07-28-2004).]