Katana and the Samurai

Alright... I just looked at a picture of a Tachi Samurai and a Katana... there seems to be no difference. To my understanding I think the katana usually has a double edge and the samurai has a single edge. Excuse my agnorance when it comes to swords. I'm under the influence of Rurouni Kenshin.. hehe.
By the way of topic, which is stronger, the traditional iron folding technique, or the new carbon fiber techonology that some swords are made of?

The Katana and the Tachi are both single-edged. My understanding is that the main difference between them is simply that the Tachi is a bit shorter. Most Tachi in existence are lavishly decorated court swords (because they continued to be used for ceremonial functions even after being phased out of battlefield use) where as Katanas are more practical, fighting swords.

Having done a little research, it seems that the main difference beween katana and tachi is the method of carry. The tachi is an older style, and hangs from the waist, edge down, like a western sword. Whereas the katana is inserted into the belt edge up. Also, from the pictures I found, the tachi seems to have a severe curve near the guard, but straightens out for most of it's length, while the katana has a more even curve. (This might just be individual examples, though.)

Gentlemen: I'm no expert on swords or swordsmanship, but I DID once ask my Kenjutsu Sensei that question, this is what I recall of his answer: Physically, the tachi differs from the katana in that the tsuka (Pommel) is curved on the tachi, straight for the katana. The tachi's blade has a more pronounced curve than the katana's. Also, the blade is lighter, and it was worn hanging from the belt, edge down as opposed to the katana being worn tucked into an obi, edge up.
I asked Sensei the Whys to this. He quite frankly told me that he didn't know the reason why the tachi was more curved, or why the tsuka was curved as well. The reason for the lighter blade, and the way it was worn was because the tachi is an older sword than the katana. It was developed during the period of constant civil wars prior to Japan's unification under the Tokugawa Shoguns, and was meant to be used by mounted samurai. Since one hand would commonly be used to control the horse's bridles, the tachi needed to be lighter so the mounted samurai would have the option to wield it one handed. For the same reason (Being on horseback), it was worn hanging, edge down: To make it easier to be carried and drawn by a mounted man. Imagine being on horseback all day with a katana stuck in your obi and rubbing against your skin! Likewise, drawing a katana worn edge up would require an overhand move and risk interference form the horse's head. Drawing the tachi, blade down, eliminated that risk, as Western cavalrymen also discovered.
For what it's worth.
BTW, A curious bit of trivia: Otake Sensei, Shihan of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu uses an antique tachi blade, but with a katana tsuka, for Iaijutsu.


[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-23-2003).]

There is a big difference to tai chi swords and katanas. Tai chi swords are longer and lighter than katanas, and used in court fights. Katanas were heavy and used to kill large groups of people.

The reason the tachi has more curavture is it was earlier than the katana. It was in the age when horse back was still preferred over foot soldiers. Traditionally a tachi is longer than a katana.

There is a huge difference between the Katana and the Tai Chi sword. The Tai Chi sword is a double egde blade and is a straight sword, thus the Tai Chi sword shall move with the wrist known as wrist movement. The Katana however is a single edge sword and is curved, also the Katana is a sword that moves with the hip and body movement and not wrist. The Tai Chi sword is also shorter and follows the chinese art of fighting while the Katans is longer and follows the Japanese art of Fighting.

[This message has been edited by Crusader (edited 04-30-2004).]

With the opening of Japan to the West by Perry in the mid Nineteenth Century and the Meiji Restoration, the traditional Japanese sword nearly ceases to exist. The Meiji Emperor bans the wearing of swords and abolishes the samurai class. Swords after 1876 can not properly be called samurai swords as there were no samurai after that date. This also marks the first large exodus of Japanese swords to the West with many of the largest early English and American collections being assembled during this time. Few traditional swords are made except for special occasions or temple dedications as the Japanese started adopting western style cavalry sabers which were machine made. It is not until the 1930's with the period of Japanese expansion into other parts of Asia that swords of the classic style are again made.

The Showa Era sees a great variety in quality of sword production, from traditionally made Nihonto (gendai blades) to bar stock, machine made swords (Showato) with all variations in between. Most blades are made to a military standard with blades between 25-28 inches in length, having only slight sori, almost no taper (funbari)and chu-kissaki (medium points). The student of the Japanese sword must learn to distinguish between non-traditionally made swords and true gendai blades. While non-traditional blades are of historical interest to militaria collectors and make perfectly fine swords for martial arts use, they are of little interest to collectors of Nihonto. The great variation in methods of production during the Showa Era makes this an area of much needed research.

It is important to remember that the changes in sword shapes did not occur instantaneously. Rather the changes were trends which took, in most cases, many years to develop, therefore numerous variations and intermediate styles are found.

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Somebody here has got their wires crossed between Tachi and Tai Chi, which is two entirely different things (I think). Tai Chi swords are straight and nothing like your typical Samurai Katana.

Yes i quite agree, please forgive but, the person who mentioned tai chi swords is obviously confussed on this issue. The kattana or indeed the tachi are japanese swords of a curved design, which i will address in a moment. however the tai chi sword used as a court sword or in mandarin the jieng is a straight blade for the double handed use. and is of course chinese in oragin. the tachi is a japanese blade with a prominent curved blade, it differs from a kattana in that - A) the blade is more curved B) it is worn soley with the blade edge facing downwards and there are other minor details of the design, but these two are main ones. The kattana is less curved, and mainly worn with the blade edge facing upwards.(this is not always the case however as anyone who has worn samurai armour will know, as it can be very difficult to draw from this position when worn with a wakazashi.) the tachi is an older design of sword that was intended for use on horseback. my ancestors were samurai in older days, and my family still honour old ways.
Sumi-masen, please forgive my bad english i hope that this may answer sum questions on kattana and samurai, thank you.

i thought that the katana was only a shorter varsen of the tachi. i am doing a english report on the katana, so in some of the information it said that the katana was made so that a samurai or any warrior could use it confortably on the ground.the part that says it has one edge was in the information i got. the tachi was made because the first maker wanted a perfect sword. so he put a slight curve in it and made it really strong. the warriors liked this better than the striaght swords they used to use because it was faster to pull out. well warriors found themselves doing battle on the ground more often. they couldnt confortably weild the sowd on the ground because it was too long. so the sword smith made a shorter version of the tachi and the warriors liked it because tey could confortably weild the sword on the ground. the sword maker decided to name this new sword the katana. i wish i could tell you what katana means, but i forgot.

actually, you are all wrong i'm afraid. The tachi was like a very long katana that was used by samurai on horseback whereas the katana was used on foot. That's all there is to it.

Also has to do if the blade is worn "edge up" thrust thu the obi or worn hung from a belt "edge down"

Wow there's a lot of mixed up info on here. I suggest checking out Richard Stein's Japanese Sword Index. It can be found by going to google and searching for... you guessed it, "Richard Stein's Japanese Sword Index". There you will find all the answers to your questions regarding Tachi and katana and various ways of mounting and wearing Japanese swords.

Pictures show nothing, you actually have to see them to realize the difference.

Katana averages 60-70? cm in length. The Tachi averages 90? cm in length. (? means estimated average).

Both are single-edged. The Katana is 30 folds and the Tachi is 28 folds. (Referring to the amount of times you fold the carbon)

The Katana is ceremonial, rarely used on battlefields (Contrary to popular belief, Samurai don't wade into combat in masses like Europeans, instead they have a yelling match until one side loses, then that side gets to charge to reclaim their honor... it all depends on the era and that era's customs; proper customs made a Japanese man/woman back then), instead, it is a symbol of the Samurai's honor. It is used primarily for allegiance and in duels of honor. Samurai will use Katanas after the initial charge, seeing as how most Samurai die AFTERWARDS. Yelling, then charging w/ Yari (Spears/lances, pending on if Samurai is mounted) and Naginatas (Partisan equivalent... imagine a Wakizashi on a stick), then the fight between the champions and victory to the side with winners, executions and sepukku for the losers... to not do so disowns your family and makes you Ronin. To explain wtf a Wakizashi is, I have to go into the Daisho. A Daisho is a set of swords meaning big and small, a Katana/Tachi and a Wakizashi/Tanto (Sword and short sword/knife). Samurai ALWAYS wear the latter, even to sleep, but a Katana never leaves the household rack (Like a redneck's Winchester/Shotgun). To simplify things, onto the Tachi.

The Tachi is made 90 cm average. It is longer (duh) and slightly more curved than the Katana. You hold it overhead with arms outstrecthed, it should clear your head by a foot and touch both hands, handle to tip. It is primarily used for purely mounted Samurai, the length compenstaing for the horse's height, and the curvature allowed you to withdraw it more quickly. It is also used as the primary weapon for Iajutsu; though the Katana was used before, they found the thinner, longer blade more useful.

Iajutsu is the most powerful sword art devised on the planet in my personal opinion. It focuses on killing your opponent in one OR LESS blows, and emphasizes using the saya (Scabbard), as a return blocker, in case your fail. To illustrate this, watch some Samurai movie, two guys run past each other, do lightning blows, and put their swords back into their sayas before stopping... sigh... one dies, other lives. But back then, both usually died, a testament to how powerful the art is. They say Iajutsu masters with Masamune or Muramasa makes can cut through waterfalls without stopping (You try it).

Btw, Masamune and Muramasa are the two best sword makes out there. Muramasa is the sharpest (Can cut through stone like them knives on infomercials), and Musamune is the sturdiest (Can get run over by a Russian tank and still be strong enough to break through a car door). There is a popular analogy, if both swords were placed into a strong river, and a cherry blossom happened to fall, it would bisect itself on Muramasa, and completely avoid Masamune (As in curve around it).

Old skoo better.

There, rant done, hope you people drool over the info.

[This message has been edited by Taishaku (edited 11-23-2004).]

Gahhh... obviously you people can't spell JIANG right either. It's the classical "hero" sword of the Chinese. Single tip, double edge, slotted in middle for the famous "swordcatcher" effect.

Tai-chi swords are lighter, thinner, shorter, and made of aluminum, they are not anywhere near a real jiang.

Btw, the Japanese used the jiang for a long time before they went isolationist with civil strife.

That's some... interesting information. Where did you acquire it? I won't speak to the rest of it, but your info on Iai is a bit off. Iai was nothing more and nothing less than a means of dealing with/perpetrating a preemptive attack. It was not a battlefield art. More the kind of thing you might use in an assasination attempt/defense, street mugging situation. For a duel you would draw first.

I'd also wager that going to sleep with a foot and a half long razor on your person, is not such a good idea, and was not likely a regular practice.

As for the battlefield, katana were a sidearm. The majority of battlefield injuries and deaths were caused by stones and other projectiles.

[QUOTE]
Both are single-edged. The Katana is 30 folds and the Tachi is 28 folds. (Referring to the amount of times you fold the carbon)
[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting quote. Again I'd like to know the source of that information?

Iajutsu/Iaido/Iaito/Battojutsu is the art of drawing the sword. It is primarily four steps: Draw, slash, followthrough (it is during this step you clean the blade), and resheath. The art is performed in a static kneeling position (Like those lame Samurai movies you watch, except for reals), and a crouched position w/ the sword pulled behind you (When it is behind you, your saya arm creatures tension, adding strength for the followthrough).

They didn't keep a razor in their boot, they kept a short sword tied to their thigh.

Until the isolationist period, the weapon of choice for Samurai was the longbow. They never threw rocks. Charge, initially causing damage with lances, then near-epic combat in their lines. No Samurai is allowed to strike another's flank or back without eye contact and acknowledgement first... and heads must be placed near the bodies for armor stripping. (They stuff incense in their kabutos)

My sources are from modern primary sources.

[This message has been edited by Taishaku (edited 11-23-2004).]

Could you name your sources specifically?

Taishaku

Were did you get your info--does not really sound like it matchs with historically availble information.

You have to understand Taishaku. Many of us have been doing these arts for many years. A lot of what you say flies in the face of commonly excepted wisdom. Your descriptions of iai continue to baffle. It sounds a lot like your making stuff up based on what you've seen in the movies you keep referencing. That's not necessarily the case, which is why we're trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to list a source for this information.

Actually their is a difference between a Tachi and a Katana. During the early times of the Samurai, Samurai originally wore a Tachi while riding on horseback in battle. The Tachi is actually a bit longer than a Katana, I think by about a foot. The idea behind this sword was to behead or main enemies on the ground as the samurai rode through. The katana was more meant for fighting off the horse. As time went by though, the swords would change in length.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Taishaku:
The Katana is ceremonial, rarely used on battlefields[/QUOTE]

Nonsense.

The katana was a functional sidearm--the Japanese equivalent of a Medieval/Renaissance European "arming sword".

[QUOTE](Contrary to popular belief, Samurai don't wade into combat in masses like Europeans, instead they have a yelling match until one side loses, then that side gets to charge to reclaim their honor...[/QUOTE]

What specific period in Japanese military history are you talking about?

Samurai certainly strove for a less individualistic approach to warfare after their mixed experiences during the two Mongol Invasions in the 13th century. They were actually very much aware of the advantages of fighting in "masses", and they made use of "masses" of ashigaru pikemen and the like.

[QUOTE] and Naginatas (Partisan equivalent... imagine a Wakizashi on a stick),[/QUOTE]

If you want to get really specific, it's actually closer to a glaive, since it's single-edged.

[QUOTE]Iajutsu is the most powerful sword art devised on the planet in my personal opinion.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect to JSA, there is no basis for your claim above.

[QUOTE]Btw, Masamune and Muramasa are the two best sword makes out there. Muramasa is the sharpest (Can cut through stone like them knives on infomercials), and Musamune is the sturdiest (Can get run over by a Russian tank and still be strong enough to break through a car door).[/QUOTE]

More nonsense.

In any case, there have been plenty of top-notch swordsmiths from all over the world--Andrea Ferrara (whose blades were prized by Scottish Highlanders), Caino and Piccinino of Milan, Sahagun and Hernandez of Spain, and the various smithing families from Solingen and Passau, in the German-speaking territories.

Peace,

A_M_P

Taishaku... you really need to study japanese history before you go preaching on about somthing you hardly know about, and if the katana was just cerimonial then what would they use to fight, sure they had spears, naginatas, bowstaffs and alot of other weapons but the katana was the main weapon that almost any samurai would use and if it wasnt they usually still had one on them, and "they have a yelling match until one side loses, then that side gets to charge to reclaim their honor" i have no freakin idea what your talking about but samurai were more individual not meaning that they never faught in groups but meaning that if they wanted to fight alone they did or if they wanted to fight in a samurai army they did, samurai were really soilders anyways so samurais that werent in a army were usually considered just as people who could use a sword but not really a samurai, like a hitokiri (assasin) they were good with swords but they were assasins not samurais, they were individual as in that samurais arent like the clone army from star wars.

The Tachi is used by horseback riders,

A Katana is a weapon used by foot soldiers, (over 2 shaku)

The Wakizashi was used mainly indoors as self-defence and would be put by the owners bed while they slept worn by samurai as or as anauxiliary sword, or by non-samurai, who were allowed to wear no more than one sword of this length.
(between 1-2 shaku)

The Tanto is the shortest of the swords worn by the samurai as auxiliary swords. Women and tradesmen used them as protective weapons. Commonly called as hara-kiri knives. They are usually the "hira-zukuri" (without ridgeline) types.
(less than 1 shaku)


Hope that helped

YEY, IM GETTING A KATANA, WAKIZASHI AND A TANTO

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Taishaku:
Iajutsu/Iaido/Iaito/Battojutsu is the art of drawing the sword. [/QUOTE] With the exception of Iaito I would agree. As an Iaito is the training sword used. For example for sword fencing such as kendo one uses the shinai, for training one uses the bokken or bokuto, for Iaido or Iaijutsu one uses an Iaito. The iaito is a steel non sharpened blade.
For tameshigiri one would use a Shinkendo or live blade.


[QUOTE]It is primarily four steps: Draw, slash, followthrough (it is during this step you clean the blade), and resheath. The art is performed in a static kneeling position (Like those lame Samurai movies you watch, except for reals), and a crouched position w/ the sword pulled behind you (When it is behind you, your saya arm creatures tension, adding strength for the followthrough).[/QUOTE]
Gawd I hope you don't draw and then 'slash'.
But one could actually say there are actually six steps. Draw, cut/thrust, release is skull or stomach cut, blade clean(shake), focus, resheath.
Though that is the basics, it goes beyond even that.
However as for your 'static kneeling and crouched' positions, what about standing?

[QUOTE]and a crouched position w/ the sword pulled behind you (When it is behind you, your saya arm creatures tension, adding strength for the followthrough)[/QUOTE]
Excuse me?
You really didn't pay attention in class did you? Normally when the saya is drawn behind you, it is the help your katana to clear the saya and to move the saya out of the way. Basically it is a quick draw system.


[QUOTE]They didn't keep a razor in their boot, they kept a short sword tied to their thigh.[/QUOTE]Bwahahahaha.


[QUOTE]My sources are from modern primary sources.[/QUOTE]which means I made it all up.

Basically as everyone has said, the Tachi is longer, tachi means standing sword, and this comes from the fact that as opposed to the katana. The tachi was always placed in an upright sword stand.
Yes, it was a cavalry sword. Yes it was worn blade down and tied to the waist. It was very unwieldly on foot, one of the main reasons for changing to the katana in the first place.
To draw the Tachi while on foot one must push the mouth of the saya downward toward the feet, form a scissor stance, that of your left foot crossing your right foot. Stand in neutral stance and then step diagonal right with your left foot, while leaving your right foot stationary. As you do this drop low into a semi crouch, and also lower the mouth of the saya toward the ground. From here allow part of the Tachi to 'slip' from the saya. As you step through with your right foot, keep allowing the tachi to 'slip' out under guidence then, mid step draw the tachi out and upward. Making a diagonal Chi Ten cut. Earth to heaven cut.
See how frikken complex that is, now try it, actually it is easy with a katana and is still taught in many schools. There are other ways of drawing the tachi, but that is one of the more common.