Tsukamaki issues

Posted by: PsychoDave

Tsukamaki issues - 12/07/07 05:16 PM

Ok, ive had my iaito for about 7 weeks now and have been training with it every class. Ive finally gotten the feel for the weight and length but im now having another issue. The Tsukamaki is tearing my hands apart...i have horrible blisters, tears and scabs on my hands which is making it hard to properly handle my sword. Anyone else have these issues? My tsukamaki is cotton, I wonder if i should have paid the extra $80 and gotten the silk. Im thinking about getting some fingerless gloves or something but I dont know if that will affect my ability to properly handle my Iaito. Any advise, my sore hands would appreciate it!
Posted by: Richard_Norris

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/07/07 05:26 PM

This is just a guess from afar, but I'd imagine it'd be helpful if you used a -light- firm grip, as you would chopping wood with an axe. Neither application should give rise to blisters. The cutting (or chopping, cf the axe) is the result of the application of technique, not strength.

Don't take my word for this, of course, ask your instructor.

Edit: It's also helpful if you don't adjust your grip when you shouldn't. As above, ask your instructor.

RN "and silk ain't soft when braided into cord, trust me"
Posted by: JoshuaMonjin

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/07/07 05:27 PM

I sometimes get callus's on the palm-finger joints and not very often blisters on my thumbs usually after not training for awhile. I have a pretty hard wrap myself. Have you asked your sensei yet? It could be that your grip is either slightly off or that your hands are shifting position as you swing and cut. My best guess is that combined with a hard wrap could be your problem. Hope this helps.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/07/07 05:52 PM

I have built up some thick callouses over the years, particularly on the inside of my right thumb knuckle. I think I might have gotten a couple of minor blisters very early in my training, but nothing terrible. I suspect that Richard may have the right of it. This sounds like an issue of technique and not an issue of equipment. This should be discussed with your instructor.

Maybe if you didn't dip the tsuka in tar and broken glass...
Posted by: KenSan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/08/07 01:39 AM

PsychoDave, Kim Taylor-Sensei wrote two excellent articles in EJMAS about eight years ago that may help you with your grip problem; you can find them at http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor2_0100.htm & http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor1_0300.htm. This of course shouldn't be considered as important as what your Sensei tells you, but it might give you a few ideas on what may be going wrong.

Just FYI, I have several katana that I practice with, & half of them have cotton tsukamaki & the other half have silk. I can't feel any difference in how each tsuka feels or in how the blades handle. I had to stop & check my calluses, but other than the same thumb callus that Charles has, I don't have any of note.

Hmm, remembering back quite a few years, I recall that my right forearm & elbow were giving me fits when I was holding the tsuka too tightly. After seven weeks, are you feeling any pain in those areas?
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/10/07 02:37 PM

Wow, thank you all for taking the time to reply and offer advise, its greatly appreciated!!

I was speaking with my sensai last week about this and he said its a matter of my grip on the tsuka. Sometimes im holding on to tight, other times to loose. He watched me for a few minutes and showed me something that lead to his conclusion...(im going to murder the spelling on this, its the WOOSH the blade makes as it slices through the air) hassogi (hasso G, thats how my sensai pronounces it) Anyways, as he was wathcing me he said that the hassogi changed as I was striking which means as I swing im changing my grip. But I dont know how to stop doing that...the tighter I hold on to the tsuka the more my hands hurt, same with loosening up my grip. He gave me a few pointers and said I just need to keep practicing, so thats what I will do. He also said that while im at home watching tv to get my iaito and grip the tsuka and work it to break in the cotton so ive been doing that for the last few days.

Richard and Joshua, you hit the nail on the head my friends!
Charles - Your advise is always appreciated! With the way my hands looked last week, I may as well have dipped my tsuka in tar and glass! You didnt just watch kickboxer, did you?
Ken - Thanks for the link im off to go check out those articles! And, no, i dont have any pain in my right forearm or elbow. I do have some sort if injury in my shoulder that ive had since before I started Iaido...it feels like my arm pops in and out of socket in certain positions and those positions seem to be used alot in Iaido. Its not to painful, it feels weird and I have to stop and readjust and pop my shoulder back in to socket before I can continue. Once I can afford insurance ill go get that checked out.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/10/07 03:00 PM

The word you are looking for is hasuji. It translates roughly as "angle of attack", only that's not really an entirely good description. Hasuji is the alignment of the plane which passes through the ha and the mid point of the back of the mune with the target. Good hasuji is usually defined as the aligning the aforementioned plane at a 90 degree angle to the target, although I suppose that could differ from style to style.

Hasuji is greatly affected by your tenouchi(grip). Unfortunately tenouchi is very stylistic in nature. Different styles can do it radically different. In addition to that, it is very difficult to diagnose and correct via the written word alone. This is a classic case where "Ask your sensei" is the only real viable option. Good luck with getting this problem fixed.
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/10/07 03:29 PM

Yeah, ive come to that conclusion as well. I will continue to work with my sensai to correct the problem. Classes have been very small lately, 4 to 5 studients for the past few months. So I should be able to get some good one on one time with my sensai.

Again, thanks to all for the time and advise!
Posted by: Halley

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/10/07 03:40 PM

Quote:

I know I will butcher the spelling...



Quote:

I will continue to work with my sensai to correct the problem.




I only bring this correction up after you mentioned an interest in the proper spelling of words. You mean "sensei," not "sensai." The correct pronunciation is sen-SAY while the latter would be pronounced sen-SIGH.

The Japanese vowel sounds are very simple, like Spanish. (That's unfortunately one of the only simple things about Japanese language!) While we're at it, when we're spelling their words with our alphabet, the G is for hard sounds (like Golf) while the J is for soft sounds (like Juice). Lastly, when you see multiple vowels together, they are each distinct syllables: Charles' "tenouchi" is pronounced teh-NOH-woo-chee.

Good luck with the grip: as Charles said, it is style-dependent but multiple sources refer to holding the tsuka like it's an egg or a bird-- strong enough to ensure its safe and won't fly, but light enough to ensure it's not crushed too. The strength is in the ends of the fingers as you pivot the blade through a cut, not the grip itself.
Posted by: JoshuaMonjin

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/10/07 04:39 PM

Glad I could be of some help. Another good term is tachikaze which translates to "sword wind" that also describes the sound the sword makes. Best of luck.
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/11/07 02:17 PM

Halley - Thank you for the lesson! I guess I was rushing, I normally spell sensei correctly. 2nd languages are not my strong point...spanish was a tough language for me to learn and since I havent used it for the past 10 years all but the basics have vanished from memory. The pronunciation of multiple vowels is gunna be a killer for me!! But again, thanks for the little lesson, i do appreicate it!

Joshua - I think Charles made mention of that in another thread, thanks for pointing that out! And again, thanks for the advice!
Posted by: KenSan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/11/07 04:29 PM

Dave, there are students in our dojo who still have problems with the correct tsuka grip after six years of training (I've been assisting Sensei at least that long with both of them), so don't despair if you don't have it quite right after two whole months.

The major trick I've found is to relax your grip a whole lot more than you would expect. Those articles that Kim wrote explain that, but it's not at all obvious at first reading - or practicing. Of course you don't want to drop your iaito (or, worse, fling it across the dojo at sensei!), but if you try to see just how "lightly" you can make your fingers hold onto the tsuka, you'll be on the right path.

Charles is right that tenouchi is the key to control, and different iaido ryu practice it differently. By the way, you didn't mention which ryu your sensei teaches - that may give some of us a better idea of what to suggest. I wrote an article on hand control for the dojo some years back, Dave, and I'll extract a bit for you here (we practice Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu):

Generally, the grip should be strong in the bottom two left fingers, although I've heard a theory that the middle finger can also be held firmly. In terms of kiritsuke, it's essential to maintain a firm grip with the little finger of the left hand at the beginning of the cut. This ensures that the kissaki moves at the beginning of the cutting action, and doesn't delay movement for even a moment. All too often, the hands or wrists are moved first, leaving the kissaki behind, but this is incorrect. It's important to have a strong grip during nukitsuke, provided the grip is correct. The tsuka should be well-seated in the base of the right hand and, generally, the line along the top of the hand to the forearm should be straight; i.e., no bending the wrist forward. This maintains the correct relationship between the tsuka and the bottom of the arm. This relationship/position should stay the same no matter in which direction a cut is made. It is, by the way, the same position as when completing chiburui.

The only place for tension or a strong grip during kiritsuke is really at the point of applying tenouchi. Before and after this point, the grip should be relaxed. In so doing, the sword will swing naturally with the force provided through the body (and gravity). Any tension applied to the blade through the hands/grip will cause it to deviate from its intended path. That's the main way single- and double-handed cuts differ. In nukitsuke, being a single-handed cut, the tsuka by definition must be held more firmly to be effective.

Have I confused you, Dave?
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/11/07 04:44 PM

This is a great oppurunity to illustrate the stylistic differences in tenouchi. Ken and I both practice MJER, albeit in different organizations. His description of where the grip is strongest(namely in the pinky and ring fingers) is a little different from what I've been taught.

At the moment of contact I've been taught that the pinky and the ring finger grip tightly, but so does the thumb, which uses the inside of the knuckle and keeps the thumb more or less straight. If you bend the thumb the knuckle loses contact with the tsuka and can no longer affect a strong grip. This is one of the keys to keeping the heel of the palm at least a little bit on top of the tsuka during kirioroshi, which is one of the key aspects of tenouchi as it has been taught to me.

But despite being in the same style, there is a glaring difference in the way Ken and I describe the grip, namely the use of the thumb. So either it is not emphasized within his branch, or he did not mention it in his description. In either case it is a great example of why this kind of stuff is almost impossible to talk about online.

BTW, neither of us are wrong. Correct is more or less defined by what your sensei is doing. It's very contextual.
Posted by: KenSan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/11/07 09:44 PM

I didn't mention the thumb because I guess I thought it was a given. Kinda' hard to perform tenouchi without using the thumbs...I just tried to figure out a way, but didn't succeed. I probably should have been more thorough in my description, but was just addressing Dave's immediate problem.

I think here is where a short video would provide the most clarification about what we're trying to describe, Charles. Nothing on YouTube that I could find. Of course, we'd then run into the differences between & among ryu, but at least we could give newer iaidoka the benefit of all the basic mistakes that we've already made. Any ideas on how to shoot the hands while someone is swinging the sword so that it would be clear(er)? I have full video equipment & editing capability if we can come up with a plan.

I'm just wrapping up production on two more of Sensei's MJER training DVDs for our dojo on Chuden & Okuden waza, so I'm "in the mood."
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/12/07 02:30 PM

Ken - wow, lots of info there, ill have to read that post again to make sure I fully absorb all of it. The form I practice is a branch of MJER, Toei Ryu Iai Batto Renmei. What ive learned from my sensei about the grip is that the pinky holds with the most pressure followed by the ring finger, then middle finger and lastly by the index and thumb... 10/8/6/2/2 One of my issues is that I love my Iaito and I spent alot of money on it, I would hate for me to loose my grip and fling it across the dojo at one of the other studients or my sensei, so I think I tend to hold on with a bit more force than is necissary. I am trying to force my self to relax a little bit and I took a few swings at home last night and it felt quite a bit better. I will continue to work on that in class tonight.
Posted by: KenSan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/12/07 05:47 PM

We all went through this, Dave, so don't feel like you're alone.

I'm still finding ways to improve my grip, even after years of practice! Seriously, how you handle your iaito is an evolving process. I had one hachidan sensei tell me that if I ever did any waza exactly the same way twice, that I was stagnating & beginning to fall behind. It took me a few years to figure out just how right he was!

Believe me, it's not your iaito that makes your swing better or worse, Dave, it's how you choose to handle it. I'm glad to hear that you're practicing with a lighter grasp - I think you'll find that it will help in the near term. Be sure to check with your sensei on how you're changing things, by the way.
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/12/07 07:42 PM

I will make sure to ask lots of questions tonight, thats for sure!! If all goes well I wont add any more blisters to my hands. Ill let you know, tomorrow, how it went and any changes I make.
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/13/07 12:23 PM

Ok, so class went great last night. I focused on my grip keeping most of it in my ring and pinky fingers. Im happy to say that my hands are not raw, sore, no new blisters and I didnt even tear any of the old ones!! I spoke with my sensei and told him what I had done, he said he thought I figured it out because i was making hasuji on more of my strokes and that it was starting closer to the beginning of the motion instead of in the middle.

Thank you all for the advice!!!
Posted by: KenSan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/13/07 08:58 PM

Glad to be of some help, Dave. Iaido should be fun, not painful!

Just remember to keep on practicing the same way - building muscle memory is key to progress.
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/14/07 01:44 PM

I love iaido, I plan on teaching one day, but thats several years away...the first wednesday in February 2008 will be 1 year at my dojo.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/14/07 03:17 PM

Don't be in too big a hurry to teach. Generally you only start teaching when you look around one day and find yourself to be the most senior guy around actively practicing. Sounds kinda cool, except that means you probably don't have easy access to regular instruction. If you did, that person would be teaching instead of you.
Posted by: PsychoDave

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 12/14/07 04:34 PM

Im not in any hurry to start teaching. The thought of teaching seams like a great idea, however i have a very long road ahead of me to get to that destination. I wouldnt even consider trying to teach until i have 10-15 years of expierence under my belt. Even then it may not be enough time for me to properly instruct anyone.
Posted by: SanjuroSensei

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 01/17/08 03:20 AM

Hello everyone...jumping back in after a long trip to Japan.

From my experience, this is usually a result from an incorrect grip or over grip. Example, grip the sword handle with a 10,8,6,2,2 grip as 10=100% power in the pinkie finger, 8=80% grip in the ring finger, 6=60% grip in the middle finger, etc. This and ensuring that both wrists are maintained on top of the handle (note you should also gage your grip to the same places on the menuki) should ensure minimal if any movement in the hands. My sources in Japan say that an incorrect over power grip will usually cause the tsuka maki ito to come loose (assuming a high quality wrap) and in my case, I had to wait 6 months for them to return the rewrapped tsuka. An expensive lesson yes, but now my grip is correct. Whether this is the case for you, only you may know. However, I still have a tendency to grab too close to the tsuba during nukiuchi and occasionally take skin off my right thumb nuckle.
Posted by: fatguy

Re: Tsukamaki issues - 01/17/08 03:43 PM

I wasn't gonna post on this thread because I have never had experience with blisters on my hands from my training. Interestingly enough though, I was recently being careless with my kirioshi and put too much power on my left hand index finger and caused a rather nasty blister, so if your getting them in that general area I would agree with Sanjuro and say you've got too much squeeze with the wrong fingers.