Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu

Posted by: fatguy

Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/14/07 10:55 PM

I came across this style and I am unfamiliar with it.. anyone else have any info on it? google gives me very little.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/14/07 11:53 PM

Is that the actual name or are you spelling it phonetically?
Posted by: splice

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/15/07 04:10 AM

Seems like a simple misreading of "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu".

"Choku" is an on reading for the kanji "straight away/honesty", as are "jiki" and "jika". Possibly someone read the kanji as "chokuden" instead of "jikiden". If you look in a japanese dictionary for the kanji combination jiki/choku-den (wishi I could type kanji here, they get auto-converted to character entities), you will find that the reading is in fact "jikiden".
Posted by: fatguy

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/15/07 07:15 AM

I found the term HERE. I didnt know that "choku" meant the same as "jiki", so maybe it is just a different way of saying muso jikiden eishin ryu.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/15/07 08:52 AM

If I understand my Kanji reading rules, which is not an absolute certainty, it's not a "different" reading of Jikiden. It's an incorrect reading. The kind of thing that can happen when someone see some kanji and looks up each kanji individually and reassembles the translations into words.
Posted by: splice

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/15/07 01:40 PM

Seconding Charles. Otherwise "oo-katana" would be another way to say "daito" and "kogaddo" would be one of many ways to say "iaido".

There is but one way to read the combination of kanji in the style name, and it definitely is "jikiden".
Posted by: fatguy

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/16/07 07:35 AM

Interesting. I know nothing about kanji so please enlighten me. How is it that two kanji words can mean the same thing, but not be synonyms?
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/16/07 10:27 AM

Because "Chokuden" is not a word. "Choku" is one possible pronounciation of the first kanji in the word "jikiden", but when you combine it with the second kanji "den" you pronounce it "Jiki" instead of "choku". You're going to have to find someone who speaks better Japanese than I to tell you why.

Did a little more digging and found the following:
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji#When_to_use_which_reading

Quote:

When to use which reading
Words for similar concepts, such as "east" (東), "north" (北) and "northeast" (北東), can have completely different pronunciations: the kun readings higashi and kita are used for the first two, while the on reading hokutō is used for the third.

The rule of thumb for determining the pronunciation of a particular kanji in a given context is that kanji occurring in compounds are generally read using on'yomi. Such compounds are called jukugo (熟語) in Japanese. For example, 情報 jōhō "information", 学校 gakkō "school", and 新幹線 shinkansen "bullet train" all follow this pattern.

Kanji occurring in isolation -- that is, written adjacent only to kana, not to other kanji -- are typically read using their kun'yomi. Together with their okurigana, if any, they generally function either as a noun or as an inflected adjective or verb: e.g. 月 tsuki "moon", 情け nasake "sympathy", 赤い akai "red" (adj), 新しい atarashii "new ", 見る miru "(to) see".




My apologies for the munching of the kana and kanji in that quote. Check the link for the actual text.

So you would use the on-yomi reading of the charact. There are three On-yomi readings for that character For this particular word, we use jiki. Choku is one of the kun-yomi readings for this word.

Not sure if that helps or just confuses the issue more.
Posted by: fatguy

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/16/07 12:32 PM

Quote:

Not sure if that helps or just confuses the issue more.



lol a little of both. I understand what your saying thanks to you and the link, but I'm pretty fuzzy as to why they would do that. But since I was just asking why it didnt work, im satisfied.

If I understand it correctly its like the words "the" and "me" when you put em together its "theme"; pronounced "Theem" not "the-me".... except they confuse it even more than I already have.
Posted by: splice

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/17/07 03:53 PM

OK, so it's a bit like english. There are a lot of ways of describing cold, right? Cold, ice, freeze, frost, etc. But when someone is very cold and part of their hands or feet freeze, we call that frostbite. You could say freezebite, coldbite, icechomp, but those aren't the "right" way of saying it. The word is frostbite, even if there are other ways of saying "frost" or "bite".

In a similar way, in Japanese, combinations of kanji have different but specific readings. The combination of characters "choku/jiki/jika/tada/nao" and "den/tsuta/tsute" is read "jikiden", just as the combination in english of the concepts "cold/ice/frost" and "bite/chomp" is always "frostbite".

Not exactly the same concept, but maybe close enough to make sense? As far as who decides how new words are made up and what readings they use, that I don't know. I just look stuff up in the dictionary.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/17/07 09:15 PM

Thanks Splice. That was a somewhat better explanation than mine.
Posted by: Borrek

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/18/07 08:28 AM

I would formally like to welcome "icechomp" into my vocabulary. I think it is here to stay!!
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Muso Chokuden Eishin Ryu - 09/18/07 10:37 AM

<< just as the combination in english of the concepts "cold/ice/frost" and "bite/chomp" is always "frostbite". >>

unless it's "coldsnap".

Sorry. Couldn't resist.