Sword Styles

Posted by: Apokalypsi

Sword Styles - 08/27/07 03:11 AM

I am very new to martial arts and I'm wanting to learn some sword fighting. I saw this one style in Equilibrium that caught my eye and was curious if it was real and, if so, what it was. I am also wanting to learn some form a sword fighting that uses two swords. What styles are there that use double swords?
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Sword Styles - 08/27/07 08:43 AM

First. Equilibrium was a movie. Most movie sword fighting is just that. Movie sword fighting. It has nothing to do with real sword arts. Real sword arts tend to be too boring for hollywood's tastes.

I can't really speak for the western arts and so won't try. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to address the issue from that point of view. From the Japanese Sword Art perspective, there are two sword techniques in Kendo, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and a handful of other koryu. That said, none of those schools are two sword styles as such. They merely contain a few two sword techniques in what is mostly a single sword system. So if your looking for real world sword styles which use two swords most of the time. The JSAs are not for you.

Escrima might be more of what you are looking for.
Posted by: ScottUK

Re: Sword Styles - 08/27/07 10:55 AM

Perhaps escrima is for you?
Posted by: Apokalypsi

Re: Sword Styles - 08/27/07 03:21 PM

Thanks guys. I figured that style from Equilibrium was fake, but I wanted to make sure. I'll look into escrima and see if that interests me. Otherwise, I'll do Iaido like I had originally planned.
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: Sword Styles - 08/27/07 03:40 PM

Depending on the style of Iaido, generally it consists mainly of drawing and cutting, not a whole lot of 'fighting' necessarily. You may want to find a school that also does Kenjutsu or Kendo if you're interested in that.

As for western styles, traditional fencing does rapier and dagger. But, usually you have to work up to that starting w/ foil, then epee, etc.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Sword Styles - 08/27/07 05:52 PM

Western historical fencing from the late Medieval and Renassance periods have lots of two sword techniques. You may want to look into ARMA or AEMMA.


--Chris
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Sword Styles - 08/28/07 11:40 AM

Quote:

Depending on the style of Iaido, generally it consists mainly of drawing and cutting, not a whole lot of 'fighting' necessarily.




There's not a whole lot of 'fighting' in any style anymore. I suspect you mean 'sparring'. Kendo is really your only JSA choice for 'sparring'. Most kenjutsu and iai styles have two man practice, but they they are almost without exception prearranged forms designed to teach specific concepts. They aren't 'freeform' as such.

Iai is more focused on solo kata, because the nature of iai is such that live blades are necessary for higher level practice, and that is not conducive to two man training for obvious reasons. There is two man practice in most Iai ryuha, but its usually not taught until practitioners have been training for quite some time, it's usually practiced with wood instead of steel, and it is a smaller portion of the overall training routine. Also keep in mind that solo kata are designed to teach far more than just nukitsuke(the drawing cut). They teach many other principles designed for post draw combat.

Kenjutsu schools do not focus on cutting from the draw to the same degree that iai schools do and so are not as tied to using live blades during regular practice. As a result they tend to have more two man training exercises as part of their regular workout routines.
Posted by: Apokalypsi

Re: Sword Styles - 08/29/07 11:59 PM

Well, I'd like to use a Katana in my practices or learn a style that I could use with a Katana. Would any of the JSAs work or are there ones that are more focused on techniques, cutting, etc.? I definitely want to learn a JSA style regardless of however many swords it uses. I was just curious if there was a JSA style that did.
Posted by: Apokalypsi

Re: Sword Styles - 08/30/07 12:25 AM

Basically, what I'm asking for now is for the JSA style that would best complement my Karate training. I don't plan on studying any sword style right away as I'm in college and another style will cost money.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Sword Styles - 08/30/07 08:53 AM

Then the best way to go about things is to wait until you settle somewhere, find out what's available in your area in the way of iaido or kenjutsu systems and then do some research on the oppurtunities available to you. Till then, it doesn't really matter. Most areas only have one or maybe two training oppurtunities. In the meantime, read. Start with the stuff recommended at http://www.koryu.com

I suspect you will find that JSAs, regardless of style, will differ greatly from your karate training. Fighting empty handed and fighting with a sword are fundamentally different, so differences are to be expected.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Sword Styles - 08/30/07 10:57 AM

Another reason for a beginner not to use a live blade is what it will do to the mouth of your scabbard. Unless your drawing and resheathing are spot on, it will chew the scabbard to bits. This will mean, among other things, that your blade will slip out whenever you lean forward. Watching it clatter disgracefully on the floor would be better than grabbing for it and possibly getting cut.

Please learn and practice the basics with an iaito.
Posted by: uchi_deshi

Re: Sword Styles - 08/31/07 02:23 PM

yes kenjitsu school do focus on the cuts as well... cuz if they dont the sword will brake or get stuck in the person if not done right...

thats where sword test cutting on matts comes from...
if you never study it dont say something you think is true cuz more likely your wrong... i have study batto ho, kenjitsu, iai, 2 swords
Posted by: splice

Re: Sword Styles - 08/31/07 03:27 PM

uchi_deshi, you probably should learn a bit about Charles before starting to lecture him. Foot in mouth and all that...

I also notice that everything you say you studied are just generic categories of arts. Where did you study? With who? What style did you study exactly?

You probably should try to find answers to these questions in Charles's case to get an idea of where he's coming from. I don't think he needs to be told what kenjutsu schools do and don't do.
Posted by: Din

Re: Sword Styles - 08/31/07 04:28 PM

Would agree with Splice on this one and give you a little caution, uchi_deshi... while I do not doubt that you have a great deal of experience, you are leaving much to be desired when you speak of batto ho, kenjutsu, iaido, and '2 swords'???

That's quite vague, considering that kenjutsu itself is divided up into at least a dozen major schools of learning (among them Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, Kashima Shin-ryu, etc.), and the other schools of iaido are just as divided.

I do not mean to disrespect, I am only a wannabe writer who is looking into practicing the sword arts, after all, but I do know that Charles is well-versed in kenjutsu and an experienced strategist in his respective ryu. That being said, it would be wise to not speak out against someone when you do not know their own credentials.

God bless, all.

-Din
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Sword Styles - 08/31/07 06:43 PM

Mostly he just needs to re-read what I wrote. I think he misread it the first time.

Quote:

Kenjutsu schools do not focus on cutting from the draw to the same degree that iai schools do and so are not as tied to using live blades during regular practice. As a result they tend to have more two man training exercises as part of their regular workout routines.





Of course kenjutsu schools focus on cutting. They are sword fighting schools after all.

I am not well-versed in non-iai arts. MJER is all I've ever practiced. I am reasonably familiar with other arts, but have spent little time researching in any depth anything but MJER, nor have I practiced anything else.

You can learn a little more about Uchi-deshi's school at http://www.seishinkan.com There is also an active thread discussing that very school over at E-budo at the moment. http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37774
Posted by: uchi_deshi

Re: Sword Styles - 09/01/07 07:32 PM

my teacher was John M. Viol... where he studied in kyoto and all over japan... you want to know his back ground go to sei shin kan.com... when it comes to japanese martial arts he knows his stuff... alot of the carp he said is not true do to i was trained to... and i was also trained by the highest female iaido instructor in the world which her teacher is John M. Viol...
what im saying is he is no joke...i was training wit him for many years
Posted by: splice

Re: Sword Styles - 09/02/07 07:33 AM

Your teacher has interesting credentials. It's a pity his webpage makes a mess of things with strange and questionable claims.

It's also obviously no help when students who don't quite understand all this try to defend him online, by saying such things as "i studied [yagyu shinkage ryu] from the only person outside japan legal to teach it" when in fact the art being taught by John Viol is yagyu shingan ryu, a different beast entirely.

For example, instead of saying "First and only non-Japanese to be admitted into elite Yagyuryu martial disciplines", the web page could instead say "Obtained menkyo kaiden in Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu from Ishihara Masao in 1991". It's less pretentious and says exactly what we need to know. And I'm just assuming as to the exact style name printed on the certificate and it's not just a subset of the whole of Yagyu Shingan Ryu.

Now my question is if his main sogobujutsu sensei "Hoshina sensei, Takenaka sensei and Takumi sensei" are Yagyu Shingan Ryu exponents or not. If not then that's a whole other can of worms... Not that it matters to me, but the point is that knowing where someone comes from is essential in understanding where they want to take you.

Anyway, I spent far too much time researching this, but the bottom line is: the world of japanese sword arts is much, much more than just John Viol and Yagyu Shingan ryu, so making claims as to the "highest female iaido instructor" and so on is a bit rich.
Posted by: uchi_deshi

Re: Sword Styles - 09/02/07 09:02 AM

thats fine but you always got to question things like that...but alot of people lie about what there doing and teaching...if you really want to find out about them all you do is call japan and ask them being they have records of every one...
Posted by: cxt

Re: Sword Styles - 09/02/07 02:04 PM


One strange website, with a lot of strange claims.
Posted by: fatguy

Re: Sword Styles - 09/03/07 10:05 AM

~Disclaimer~ I mean no disrespect and I have done no research whatsoever.



as quoted from the site :
Quote:

40th year of non stop hard core warrior training




What hard core warrior style is he doing? cant be a JSA. MMA?

and although it may or may not be all true, I'm chewing through all of of that and its kinda hard for me to swallow.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Sword Styles - 09/03/07 09:45 PM

Quote:

thats fine but you always got to question things like that...but alot of people lie about what there doing and teaching...if you really want to find out about them all you do is call japan and ask them being they have records of every one...




Japan's kind of a big place. I don't suppose you could be a little more specific about who in particular should be called? Which organization perhaps? Zen Nippon Sogobudo Renmei perhaps? Don't suppose you have a number or a web address? Google searches are turning up nothing.
Posted by: splice

Re: Sword Styles - 09/04/07 05:51 AM

The web site lists these:

Quote:


* ZEN NIHON SOGO BUDO RENMEI
* ZEN NIHON TOYAMA RYU IAIDO KYOKAI
* ZEN NIHON YAGYU RYU JUJUTSU RENMEI
* ZEN NIHON JUJUTSU RENMEI
* ZEN NIHON JUKENDO RENMEI
* ZEN NIHON GOSHIN JUTSU RENMEI
* ZEN NIHON KOBUJUTSU RENMEI
* KOKUSAI BUKI JUTSU RENMEI
* YAGYU SHINGAN RYU HYOHO IAI JUTSU





Certainly would be nice to get more details, but as I explained in the other topic (shinkage ryu etc.), I've come to believe this fellow has studied Yagyu Shingan Ryu under Ishihara Masao and obtained menkyo kaiden from him, and also studied Toyama Ryu under Nakamura Taizaburo.

As for the orgs, I know some fine fellow on e-budo said he could find no reference to the Zen Nihon Sogobujutsu Renmei, but the page I saw referred to the Zen Nihon Sogobudo Renmei, and while I didn't find much at all, I did find a reference to a demonstration by the Shinseikai karate dojo at the Zen Nihon Sogobudo Renmei in Okazaki.

Like I said earlier, some interesting credentials, shame that the web site has so much strange stuff on it.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Sword Styles - 09/04/07 12:00 PM

Plus, listing a menkyo on your bio without listing specifically in what art and whom issued it is, IMO, like claiming a PHD on your resume without listing the specific field or the school that issued it.

Kinda weird IMO in a bio that is so detailed that it lists ones "japanese nickname" yet omits crucial detials like whom issued your menkyo and in what exact style its from.

Don't know the man of course--just commenting on what is posted on his website.
Posted by: splice

Re: Sword Styles - 09/04/07 12:10 PM

Again, the web site itself may be strange, but if you follow the crumbs you can pretty much definitely establish that he claims menkyo in Yagyu Shingan Ryu from Ishihara Masao. It's not exactly hidden, you just have to connect the dots.

The man may have very little to do with the website and in fact I hope so.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Sword Styles - 09/04/07 02:13 PM

Splice

And I'm not disagreeing with that.

Only pointing out that a reader should not HAVE to "connect the dots" and "follow the crumbs" on what is essentiualy somebodies martial arts resume.

Esp when they take the time to include their Japanese "press nick name."

Like I said, its like claiming a PHD and NOT including in what field or from which University.

It flags as "strange" at least to me.
Posted by: Apokalypsi

Re: Sword Styles - 09/06/07 04:20 PM

Dang, sorry I started this whole thing. I'll definitely wait and look into it at a later point in my training Charles. I just wanted to be ready to learn as soon as I could.
Posted by: Kensaizen

Re: Sword Styles - 09/29/07 03:53 PM

Peace be upon u all
Iam new in this forum and I'd like to have knowledge from u all about alot of things in sword fighting field.

Do u think there are differences between war and indoor in the sword fighting?
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Sword Styles - 09/30/07 10:29 AM

Like spilled blood, for instance?
Posted by: cxt

Re: Sword Styles - 09/30/07 12:46 PM

Ken

Yes, one is "outdoors" and the other "indoors" so I would guess that would make some difference in ones tactics and stratagy.

One would have to adapt ones techniques if one were fighting knee-deep in a swamp as opposed to fighting in ones bathroom.
Posted by: fatguy

Re: Sword Styles - 09/30/07 01:10 PM

Quote:

Do u think there are differences between war and indoor in the sword fighting?




I think this is a very interesting question, as in war you would have many collegues, but I would assume indoor challanges would have consisted mainly of two people.

Did the samurai count on one another to watch their back in battle? or treat the matter as a one on one.. on one on one on one.. etc conflict?
Posted by: Kensaizen

Re: Sword Styles - 10/01/07 07:28 AM

In the battlefeild one will fight for his own reasons, or own God, which makes the fight more fierce.

My questions was focusing in the spirit of the fighter, and the ability he has to fight for his cause.

This is rarely taught nowadays, b/c most teachers r concentrating on techniques and style.

In my point of view, the spirit of the warrior is the source of all powers. One can achieve it by knowing thy self and direct it toward harmony.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Sword Styles - 10/02/07 12:27 AM

Ken

I presume that ones "spirit" would be the same if one was fighting "indoors" as it would "outdoors?"
Posted by: Kensaizen

Re: Sword Styles - 10/03/07 01:14 PM

That is absulotely correct "cxt". However, how can u acquire such spirit if u don't test your self and fight your fears.

My question about war and indoor sword combat was really concerning the way teachers r training thier students now.
The experince they have is not from going into battlefield, but from other different teachers or fighters.

In the art of war, u learn the true way of becoming a master in the sword, however this art is lost b/c now we use guns and other mass destructive machines which even a coward can use to kill even the most stronger fighter in melee weapons.

I am searching to find the true way to become a Kensai (or Kensei).
Posted by: Halley

Re: Sword Styles - 10/03/07 01:22 PM

Quote:

I am searching to find the true way to become a Kensai (or Kensei).




I hope "u" can explain what you think a Kensai or a Kensei might be. It would depend on which particular kanji, since Japanese is full of homophones. Some meanings of "kensei" include a constitutional government, or in Buddhist faith, a demonstration of truth. Perhaps "kensai", a man of noted ability, but that seems a bit generic given your use of the word. Perhaps foolishly on my part, I assumed you didn't mean to become a housewife or an inspector.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Sword Styles - 10/03/07 02:38 PM

Ken,

I think you are caught up in a rather romantic notion.

You are correct in that nobody fights with swords anymore. That is not to say that sword training in a currently extant koryu JSA isn't much the same as it always has been. Keep in mind that the fighting styles and teaching methodologies have been handed down from one generation to the next. It's as real as it gets. If that's not good enough for you, well I'm afraid that's just tough. If you are serious about finding instruction, tell us where you are and we'll try to point you in the right direction.

As for battlefield swordsmanship, that was never as common as you might suspect. The katana was a sidearm within the arsenal of a Samurai. The yari(spear), the yumi(bow), and a good old fashioned rocks were the usual battlefield weapons. If you've fallen back on your katana, the battle is going very badly.
Posted by: splice

Re: Sword Styles - 10/04/07 05:58 AM

Quote:

That is absulotely correct "cxt". However, how can u acquire such spirit if u don't test your self and fight your fears.




Is the reason you are lecturing us on this is because you have had many fights, killed everyone who fought you, and now have attained enlightenment?

If not, can you explain to us your experience with Japanese Sword Arts?

Quote:

My question about war and indoor sword combat was really concerning the way teachers r training thier students now.
The experince they have is not from going into battlefield, but from other different teachers or fighters.




You seem to know a lot about everyone's teachers. Sadly you are mistaken, some teachers (old though they are) actually did use their swords on the battlefield.

Quote:


In the art of war, u learn the true way of becoming a master in the sword, however this art is lost b/c now we use guns





By the middle of the 16th century, the Japanese had more guns per capita than any other country. Japanese soldiers still had swords as sidearms during the 2nd world war. Sword arts may not be as pervasive as before, but they are far from lost.

Quote:

I am searching to find the true way to become a Kensai (or Kensei).




Unfortunately, unless something very unexpected happens, David Anders will be the one playing Kensei in heroes. And since we don't fight with swords anymore, it seems doubtful anyone can be called a "sword saint" anymore. The best we can do now is study the sword arts for other purposes.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Sword Styles - 10/04/07 11:49 AM

Ken

Don't know how to answer your question---"most" studetns of the sword back in the past were never well-known "masters" or "kensei" of the blade.

I suppose that if they could live with that then so can I.

As Charles has already mentioned you seem to have some overly romantic notions of period sword work.

Pretty sure you can "face your fears" in all sorts of ways.

Yep, guns pretty much ended all sorts of hand to hand arts.

My little niece with a .38 could probably kill the best swordsmen that ever picked up a blade.

That is the way of things, as Nobunaga and a number of others proved.
Posted by: Kensaizen

Re: Sword Styles - 10/05/07 05:52 AM

Thank u all for your concern to the way I feel about the sword.
U were right that I am really like in love with the sword arts and it saddens me the way things are about the sword, however, I will always be searching to become a true master. I thank specially "Charles" & "ctx" about their replays.

I will study further my self in the way of the sword, and overcome all my fears.

Thank u all again.

P.S: I will become A Kensei.
Posted by: splice

Re: Sword Styles - 10/05/07 06:01 AM

Quote:



P.S: I will become A Kensei.




No, you won't, because "Kensei" doesn't mean sword saint. Kensei is the name of the guy on Heroes, or a japanese word meaning "constitutional government".

What you meant to say was "Kensai", which would mean "sword saint". Still a bit of a silly thing to say, but less silly than "I will become a constitutional government".

Good luck with your aspirations anyway.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Sword Styles - 10/05/07 08:58 AM

I suppose he could always legally change his name to Kensei.

You could always just declare yourself a Kensai right now. You have as much authority to do it as anyone else.

It's not like Kensai is a rank. Why not aspire to something that is achievable. Hanshi perhaps. Or Menkyo Kaiden. These are terms which imply a certain amount of mastery and are still in common use. They are terms which people will actually respect if you manage to earn them. They are not terms which will get you laughed at by people who know something about the arts.

Posted by: Kensaizen

Re: Sword Styles - 10/05/07 12:39 PM

Hence, my nickname :Kensai zen
Posted by: A.J. Bryant

Re: Sword Styles - 10/05/07 03:56 PM

What about just aspiring to the utilization of proper English in your posts, including spelling and grammar... Just a thought.
Posted by: chenglongsword

Re: Sword Styles - 11/26/07 03:01 AM

[MODERATOR EDIT]
Hello Cheng. Please check your private messages. I have already had to delete to of your posts for containing advertisements. I am now having to delete a third. I can only assume you missed the private messages I sent you. Please check your messages now by logging into your account and going to the "My Home" link in the options bar towards the top of the screen.