Bokken - With or Without the Guard?
Posted by: MastaFighta
Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/26/07 07:11 PM
I've noticed that a lot of practitioners seem to prefer the bokken without the guard. I was wondering what you prefer when training with a bokken; guard or no guard.
Posted by: JoshuaMonjin
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/26/07 07:16 PM
I suppose it depends on what style of swordsmanship you are studying. I use a bokken with a guard for both solo and two person kata and there have been times when I am very glad that the guard is there.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/26/07 10:14 PM
I prefer the tsuba when doing kumitachi(paired practice). Kinda have to have one really. For solo stuff, suburi and what not, it doesn't seem to make much difference.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/26/07 10:58 PM
I prefer it, making it more like the sword.
In my experience, it's the Aikido schools that prefer to not use the guard.
Not using it changes the grip, so really it depends on what you are doing.
Posted by: iaibear
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/27/07 12:25 AM
Gotta have that tsuba. You get your fingers squashed too easily without it.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/27/07 08:15 AM
Quote:
Not using it changes the grip, so really it depends on what you are doing.
How does the presence or absence of a tsuba change your grip?
I agree absolutely for kumitachi that you need the tsuba. It's there to protect your fingers from harm, which it does remarkably well considering it's relatively small size.
Posted by: jpoor
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/27/07 05:01 PM
If you're doing any sort of sword defense that involves preventing the draw, a tsuba on the attackers sword is a good thing.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/27/07 06:00 PM
Quote:
How does the presence or absence of a tsuba change your grip?
With the tsuba, you take the grip with your hand a few fingers distance back from the tsuba. The tsuba protects the hand, but it also stops the sword from sliding back if it gets jammed - the sword will slide back through your hands until the tsuba hits the hand. Without the tsuba it can keep sliding, so the rear hand needs to be adjusted so that the tsuka is firmly in the heel of the palm, adding that extra support. Although I will add this may be a stylistic preference
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/27/07 08:27 PM
Ok. I think I see what you are saying Jim. When performing a tsuki against a resisting target, the sword could slip within your grip and the tsuba would then come in handy to keep your hand from sliding. Of course, that would only be a problem during partner practice.
For solo practice, tsuba or no tsuba isn't really going to make a lot of difference for tenouchi.
For paired practice, the tsuba is a key part of protecting your hands. Given that most tsuba on bokuto are slid on from the kissaki(point), they aren't going to provide a lot of support for a thrust if your hands slip. On most bokuto, the tsuba will simply slide forward. That of course is not a problem with a shinken.
Now I can see that if you intend to use the bokuto itself as a weapon, rather than a training tool, then I can see more of a focus on keeping the left hand wrapped around the kashira(end of the tsuka) at least a little.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 07/27/07 09:43 PM
Yes. Exactly, and a much better explaination.
I actially never held a bokken until I started in Aikido. This idea was expressed by my Aikido teacher. I never thought to bounce it off an Iaido or Kenjutsu teacher. I just continued teaching the 2 different grips.
Posted by: splice
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 08/01/07 03:26 PM
Moreover, isn't it the case that there should be no risk of this happening during tachiai practice? I don't recall any instance where resistance against a tsuki is provided, which would lead to possible hand slippage. Then again I don't do tachiai all that often so I may be missing something.
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 08/01/07 04:23 PM
There's also an argument for the grip that just involves form. If you always use it without you might develop an incorrect grip in relation to the tsuba. ( lead hand too close or too far away, etc.) You need to know the proper placement to prevent the tsuba interfering with your range of movement or just plain rubbing your hand raw if you're gripping too close. JMHO
Posted by: SpeedyGonzales
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 08/24/07 10:32 PM
Quote:
Gotta have that tsuba. You get your fingers squashed too easily without it.
it's interesting you mention that.
My school never used tsuba and for some techniques I fingers got jammed all the time at the beginning. One of my seniors remarked that it used to happen all the time to him but that once I understand how to properly redirect the cut (just a straight shomen) then it wouldn't happen. Watching him, not matter how close or far or fast or slow the other guy cut at him, the other guy's bokken would never touch my senior's fingers, even if it got in the area.
I just thought about this as I read this thread... maybe not having the tsuba forces you to do some technique "more correctly." Of course this is a broad statement so forgive me if it doesn't apply to all styles. But at least for my school it seems to.
Oh and also, Some techniques seem actually easier without the tsuba. We have some techniques (which were incorporated from Yagyu Shinkage Ryu) which involve sliding one hand up to back of the bokken to block.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 08/25/07 02:11 PM
I think I would be leary of things that were "easier" without a tsuba. If you were to train that way a lot, taking advantage of a missing tsuba, then you would have difficulty with a real sword that had a tsuba. That's training a bad habbit if you ask me.
Perhaps for kumitachi I will get good enough to protect my fingers through better form and won't need the tsuba as much. Till then I'd be much happier with a tsuba. Particularly the way some of our kumitachi is performed.
Posted by: SpeedyGonzales
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 08/25/07 04:15 PM
Quote:
I think I would be leary of things that were "easier" without a tsuba. If you were to train that way a lot, taking advantage of a missing tsuba, then you would have difficulty with a real sword that had a tsuba. That's training a bad habbit if you ask me.
To be honest, even though we take the bokken techniques serious, our core goal is to make our empty hand techniques stronger. So yes, it would make things awkward with a real sword, but sliding up the back of the bokken to block, the true meaning of that is to develop out te-no-uchi/uchi-no-te which is used in every grip of our empty-hand tenchiques, if you get what I mean (ikajo, nikajo, sankjao, yonkajo, kote-gaeshi... basically every technique that involved placing you hand on uke.)
Posted by: Ames
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 08/25/07 08:56 PM
Quote:
I think I would be leary of things that were "easier" without a tsuba. If you were to train that way a lot, taking advantage of a missing tsuba, then you would have difficulty with a real sword that had a tsuba. That's training a bad habbit if you ask me
Speaking from experiance, I have to say I agree with you. I practiced for about three years without a tsuba, for no reason other than I didn't have one on my bokken. I'm still trying to fix the problems that were created from doing this.
-Chris
Posted by: PrimeUniversa69
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 10/02/07 10:34 PM
Doesnt matter to me,as long as its sturdy anough to serve it purpose.
Posted by: Borrek
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 10/03/07 09:30 AM
Quote:
Doesnt matter to me,as long as its sturdy anough to serve it purpose.
Isn't its purpose to simulate a real sword? For that reason I think having a tsuba is preferable. Aesthetically I like bokken without tsuba, but to teach proper form I can't see the benefit of not having one.
Posted by: PrimeUniversa69
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 10/03/07 12:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Doesnt matter to me,as long as its sturdy anough to serve it purpose.
Isn't its purpose to simulate a real sword? For that reason I think having a tsuba is preferable. Aesthetically I like bokken without tsuba, but to teach proper form I can't see the benefit of not having one.
Don't get me wrong,if I had a sarring partner,i would rather have a Tsuba.But I don't have anyone of the same style.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 10/03/07 12:31 PM
Borrek
Some ryu do some ryu don't.
There are a whole list of "whys" and "why nots"--but it bascially comes down to what is "normal" for the ryu a person happens to practice.
Posted by: ErikTracy
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 10/03/07 02:00 PM
Quote:
Borrek
Some ryu do some ryu don't.
There are a whole list of "whys" and "why nots"--but it bascially comes down to what is "normal" for the ryu a person happens to practice.
Precisely.
For example, in ono-ha itto-ryu kenjutsu, there is a kata called "tsubawari" where uchikata strikes to shikata's kote. Shikata's defense is to purposely move/interpose his blade in a 'high seigan' position so that uchikata's cut strikes the tsuba and deflects off to the side - whereupon shikata uses the opening to finish off uchikata with a men strike.
Without a tsuba, this technique wouldn't work, nor would many people want to even try it!
fwiw,
Erik
Posted by: A.J. Bryant
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 10/03/07 03:16 PM
Quote:
For example, in ono-ha itto-ryu kenjutsu, there is a kata called "tsubawari" where uchikata strikes to shikata's kote. Shikata's defense is to purposely move/interpose his blade in a 'high seigan' position so that uchikata's cut strikes the tsuba and deflects off to the side - whereupon shikata uses the opening to finish off uchikata with a men strike.
One of my first Iaido teachers taught the use of the Tsubawari heiho as possible scenarios for Seichuto/Tsukikage and the first cut in Gyakuto/Tsukekomi. Then again, he taught Itto-ryu as well, so...
There’s also a famous story about how Chiba Shusaku (Hokushin Itto-ryu) defeated a member of the Shinkage-ryu who’d been busting dojo all over Edo with a ridiculously long shinai. He did it by using a very large round tsuba on his own shinai... they work rather well for deflection.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Bokken - With or Without the Guard? - 10/03/07 08:17 PM
As sted before, i usually only used the bokken in Aikido and never put a tsuba on it.
I recently went to a Daito Ryu seminar where Itto Ryu was taught as part of the seminar. I got my fingers smashed a few times before someone lent me an extra tsuba. I never had this problem with any kumitachi before.
I'm sure I have a tsuba laying around somewhere. It's getting put on.