How do you tell sword quality?
Posted by: 18lohans
How do you tell sword quality? - 03/14/07 03:45 AM
So, I'm looking forward to buy some new swords for my collection. More specifically a Dao (broadsword) and a Jian (straight sword).
Question is, how does one tell the quality of the sword?
I mean, I honestly can't really tell the difference between good metal and bad metal. I used to think it was about flexibility, as I am more interested in combat quality weapons more so than the flexible light-weight wushu weapons. However, it turns out that jians can be combat quality while maintaining a certain degree of flexibility? Help!
Posted by: iaibear
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/14/07 05:19 PM
Do I understand correctly that you are looking for a quality sword that you can use in a sparring or "combat" situation?
It sound like you would enter a Lamborghini in a bumper car rally.
Sorry. I do not think you will get much information on these boards.
Posted by: 18lohans
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/14/07 05:44 PM
well, I probably won't spar with a sword anytime soon, and definitely not going into combat with it. But I do practice with my swords instead of just hanging them on the wall or something.
I'm just looking to learn and understand more about swords, and what it "quality" means when it comes to a sword. I've seen swords range from $50-400... and honestly, sometimes I can't really tell the difference between them (as I doubt a nice design is worth the difference)
Again, I used to think weight and hardness used to imply quality swords, but it turns out quality swords can be light and flexible as well...
Thanks for responding anyways
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/14/07 11:07 PM
I don't know much about chinese swords, but $400 sounds awfully cheap for an upper end. That's close to the lower end for Japanese swords that are suitable for training purposes.
Posted by: Benjamin1986
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/17/07 06:58 PM
Main points on sword quality.
Hardness: It should be able to cut while holding its edge, and hold its shape.
Toughness: It should be able to take a hit without breaking.
Well shaped, polished, gripped and/or wrapped: It shouldn't catch in the scabbard or slip out of your hand. The blade should not fly out of the grip, nor should it rattle or shake. The wrap should be tight, holding together after months of daily usage. If there is no wrap, it should feel smooth, and you should be able to grip it without sliding.
That's just about it. Everything else comes under those three categories.
Hardness and toughness are what are focused on the most as they require good quality steel (stainless = shattering steel shards flying in all directions), good craftsmanship (inconsistent hardening creates snapping or bending points), and a lot of time.
The shape and balance is another important point. It should feel light and weildy, not sluggish.
The fittings are what everyone forgets, but in many respects, the quality of the fittings are the most important part of the sword. You won't need the sword's edge these days, but you need a good grip that won't budge.
All of these parts require master craftsmanship to get right. Expert craftsmen don't work for cheap, even in China. Don't expect a usable sword for under $1000 American.
Posted by: Naomasa
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/29/07 01:15 PM
A: Tour sword should NEVER be hit.
B: The sharper most blades the more fragile they are.
C: How are you learning your MA? are you just buying the swords and playing with them? Do you intent to take a class? if so ask your instructors to help you pick one out.
D: Good luck and try not to hurt your self or anyone else.
Posted by: ChangLab
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/29/07 02:58 PM
I've heard reference to "folded" swords as in the steel has been folded 200 times....But I can't really say I know anything about the practice.
I would guess that it is when the sword is forged that in it's heated state the metal is actually folded then shaped then heated, folded shaped etc....
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/29/07 05:20 PM
I think the upper end on folds is something like 12, with 7 or 8 being more common. What you are thinking of is layers. 8 folds yields 256 layers.
According to my handy dandy windows calculator, 2 to the power of 200 yields a number which looks like 1.6069380442589902755419620923412e+60
I'm reasonably certain that would make the layers thinner than the width of the atoms that make up the steel. In other words, that many folds creates slag.
Posted by: Naomasa
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/29/07 11:03 PM
Creepy o.o;
Posted by: Benjamin1986
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/30/07 10:17 PM
"200 Folds" refers to the number of layers of steel in the blade. That's 8 folds (2^8 = 256 layers).
However, don't buy into the folded steel propoganda. With a master smith, yes, folded steel gains a slight damascus effect increasing blade hardness/toughness. However, if you want damascus steel, buy from Pendray or Angelsword or one of the companies that actually makes damascus steel.
Folding steel was done for one purpose, purifying the poor quality iron that can be mined in Japan. Folding the steel works out sulfur and other impurities. However, it is very labor intensive (read: EXPENSIVE) and leaves you with a piece of steel which is essentially folded carbon and iron. Folding modern, quality steel is really a waste of time. Indeed, it can remove impurities that you want (like vandium, which improves toughness or tungsten, which improves hardness). In short, it isn't necessary and should be used only for historical and/or aesthetic reasons.
Posted by: fatguy
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 03/31/07 08:51 AM
Whats the difference between toughness and hardness?
Posted by: Benjamin1986
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 04/01/07 12:33 PM
Hardness is the ability to not bend or deform.
Toughness is the ability to not break.
In short, hardness is necessary for the sword to hold it's shape and edge. For example, take some lead soder. You can bend it with your hands, carve it with your pocketknife, and pretty much do anything to it at room temperature. That's what low hardness is. Iron isn't that bad, but it still is too soft to hold an edge.
Toughness is necessary for a sword not to snap. If you went extreme and made your sword out of diamond, your blade would never go dull. However, it would shatter like glass if it recieved a sold blow.
A tough sword will take a beating without breaking, a hard sword will take a beating without becoming deformed. Unfortunately, they are opposite properties. It isn't possible to have your cake and eat it too. You can cheat the system a bit by using techniques like differential hardening, cryogenic processing or damascus steel. Choose what part of the cake to have and what part too eat, but you can only make the cake so big.
Noe: all of those things I just mentioned must be done right. If done poorly, they make the sword worse. Too high a differential temper gives you a cracked edge and whipping spine, the traditional katana is very close to that cliff of "too much", lending to the blades relative fragility. Cyrogenic processing must be done correctly. You cannot simply quench the blade in liquid Nitrogen and expect to get anything done, [url=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=watson.INNM.&s2="thermal+process"&OS=IN/watson+AND+"thermal+process"&RS=IN/watson+AND+"thermal+process"]here's the link[/url] to Angelsword's latest patent for their cryo system, not simple stuff by any means. Damascus steel looks pretty, but the properties are really the average of the two different metals that compose it plus a benefit that is inversely proportional to the size of the bands. Anything much bigger than a millimeter is just pretty. Pattern welded steel doesn't do anything, plus, if done poorly, you gain the weakest link effect, making stress points along the length of the blade.
Posted by: northstar
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 04/30/07 09:12 AM
Check out
www.enlightenmentswords.com and look under their "Forge" section. Good information.
If you are not satisfied maybe try swordforums.com, very good.
I own quite a few swords and most of them are from Enlightenment. Email Evan about the prices, you can get a decent practise and well balanced sword for under 500USD easy.
Posted by: pgsmith
Re: How do you tell sword quality? - 05/03/07 11:56 AM
Quote:
Check out www.enlightenmentswords.com and look under their "Forge" section. Good information.
There is some good information there. However, there is also quite a bit of information that is not quite right or, in some cases, out and out wrong. Seems to me a lot like Wikipedia in that it may be a good starting point, but what is there should be verified from several other sources before being believed.