Serrated Sword?
Posted by: Chen Zen
Serrated Sword? - 11/21/06 06:44 PM
Obviously a straight edge is the traditional way to make a sword, however, we now have serrated blades that last much longer than a straight edge. Is there anyone out there that makes a serrated sword?
Posted by: cxt
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/21/06 06:54 PM
Chen
How large/big large a series of serrations??
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/21/06 06:55 PM
I hadnt put much thought into that part. I would guess a tight grouping would be better, like a ginsu.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/21/06 10:27 PM
Chen
Reason I ask is that depending on what you were planning on cutting----small--as in "micro serrations" might (MIGHT) be better.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/21/06 10:32 PM
Depending on what I want to cut huh? Well, I want the sharpest and strongest blade possible. I want to be able to cut through anything. i know that isnt possible, but I want to get as close as i can anyways.
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/21/06 10:44 PM
might as well just use a saw blade for something like that.
there are some knives that are forged with all kinds of wavy edges which do a number on whatever they're cutting.
serrated swords look very ugly and untraditional though. i'm not sure there's many places in the world where serrated swords were very common at any point in history.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/21/06 10:56 PM
I think it would be a thing of destructive beauty
Posted by: Blackrainbow
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/22/06 09:23 AM
Depends on the type of sword you are seeking. As far as Katana I have only seen serrated blades on some cheap "fantasy" swords. Suitable only for hanging on a wall in the garage or sale at the local flea market. Serrated swords are nothing new. The ancient greeks used them. There are several types of medieval long swords with serrated edges, actually more saw like then closely serrated. They were just big can openers designed for use on chain mail and light plate armor. The British War Museum and the Austrian War Museum have some lovely examples.As far as swords made in Japan and China, I am not aware of any either ancient or modern.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/22/06 11:27 AM
Chen
That's kinda the problem, most blades are crafted for specifc use---a serrated edge would be very good vs some targets, much less effective vs others.
Not being a metal craft I'm assueming here--but I would think that a serrated edge would be really good vs flesh/soft targets.
Much less effective vs armor or hard target.
Nobody wears armor in "old" sense anymore--but then again, nobody carries swords around either.
Posted by: Benjamin1986
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/22/06 01:18 PM
Carbides in the steel (especially those from overhardened sections such as from folding or wootz) give an "aggressive" edge which has microserrations making cuts easier. However, if you mean actual serrations on a blade, there are some problems:
1: Sharpening. How the heck do you do it? To get an effective cut (instead of a saw), you need not only the teeth to pierce, but the blade as well. That means every tooth would have to be sharpened not only on the tip, but on the edge as well. That would take an enormous amount of time.
2: Chipping/breaking. If you use a hacksaw, you will see that the teeth start breaking off after a while, especially when cutting steel. This is due to the fact that you have hard points with very little support. With a hacksaw, you can replace the blade. With a sword, that'll cost you ten grand. Ever wonder why kitchen knives aren't serrated? If you lose a tooth in your meat by levering on a bone, that's a real pain to get out and you may have to sacrifice your steak. Your bread knife, however, is serrated so you can saw through the loaf.
3: Serrations are difficult and expensive to make. The bread knife is the most expensive out of a set of knives for a reason. Now, try doing this over a two foot region on top of all the requirements for a normal sword. You are looking at a master smith to do this even partially well, and even using stock removal, it would take an inordinate amount of the smith's time.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/22/06 06:54 PM
Ben
I'm not sure what Chen was looking for.
But that is what I was getting at.
Shiva Kai--crazy as he might be, claims "micro-serrations" in some of his better knives.
Posted by: fatguy
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/22/06 10:16 PM
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Depending on what I want to cut huh? Well, I want the sharpest and strongest blade possible. I want to be able to cut through anything. i know that isnt possible, but I want to get as close as i can anyways.
I may be wrong but isn't there the skill of the wielder that needs to be considered when referring to the ability to cut through many things? (for example the bokken can slice through paper as well as the katana if properly handled or the katana can chop through paper like a baseball bat if it's improperly used.)
Posted by: iaibear
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/23/06 10:27 AM
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I think it would be a thing of destructive beauty
I think it would be nearly impossible to sharpen, expecially in the traditional manner. Your beautiful blade would wind up with cross-hatched scratches along the cutting edge.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/24/06 03:21 PM
They actually make tools specifically to sharpen serrated edges, if the spacing is enough to do so.
I think this thread is winding down. Serrated swords as the original poster described do not exist in reality. This is not a fantasy forum. It is meant to be grounded in the real world and real sword arts.
I'm not locking it yet, but if it continues in this pointless direction without any real substance, I'm going to shut it down. This type of speculation simply does not belong in this forum any more than who would win a fight between a samurai and a mideval knight with a band saw and a light saber.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/24/06 06:29 PM
The "original poster" being me. Whats the matter Charles, its not classical JSA so its a probem? Speculation is a big part of any MA.
As for my thread topic, its not fantasy. The simple truth is, that a serrated blade stays sharper longer than a straight traditional edge. Since that is the case if I desired a sword that could still cut effectively, even through hard substances, and hold an edge then where else would I look than the SWORD forum?
I don't know where to tell you to look. Fact remains what you are searching for doesn't exist and is purely sppeculative in nature. I would say the same things if someone were to suggest ceramic blades, light sabers, or any number of other purely theoretical designs. This is not the Swords forum. It is the Sword Arts forum and to quote from the forum rules thread:
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This forum is for the discussion of actual sword arts. We will not waste bandwidth on anime topics or other silly and pointless endeavors that pertain to purely fictional sword styles.
Any discussions on what the "best" sword/art is will be short lived, as there is no such thing. I'll lock these threads so fast you'll think I live on this forum. They do nothing but cause flame wars. Threads that compare one style with another and look for differences are allowable, although I don't know that they will be particuarly useful. Threads that declare one style as inherently superior than another... No.
Those are rules that have been in place on this forum since before I became moderator.
There are a number of smiths hanging out on Sword forums such as... well http://www.swordforum.com They should be able to address this idea with some authority. I suggest you take it there if you wish to discuss this idea. Who knows perhaps you've invented a better mouse trap, but in all likelihood it will be deemed a silly concept.
At the risk of encouraging further discussion, I suspect that a serrated blade would pose big problems for blade to blade contact, or any instance where the point of a serration might come into contact with a hard object, such as bone or armor. The tip of a serration would be vulnerable to breaking off much like the tip of the kissaki is. A broken tooth somewhere in the middle of the blade would weaken the entire blade and make it far more likely to break on subsequent contact. This is something that a smith could address far better than I.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/24/06 10:26 PM
Is the usage of a sword not sword art? Regardless of the type of sword? And it isnt a "whats better" thread either. The intention of the thread was to ask if there was a place to find such an item and, if not, why not? And if not, would it be worth pursuing the creation of such?
As for forum rules, they are to the discretion of the moderator per forum, with exception of the general site rules.
At any rate, thanks for the link, however, with such an amount of authorities on blade handling and usage all ready at my disposal, I dont feel the need to join another forum.
The last part of your thread was actually the most helpful so now I will address it. Would blade on blade not pose to be harmful to your blade regardless? As for the tooth of the serration, all that would be required is to sharpen the segment. It would shorten the width of the blade but at a minimal amount.
I'm not gonna debate you on the finer points of whether or not this thread is appropriate to this forum. I will rather restate one of your own points.
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As for forum rules, they are to the discretion of the moderator per forum, with exception of the general site rules.
Just a reminder, I am the forum moderator and it is my judgement that this material is outside the scope of the types of discussion that this forum was intended for. This is a forum for sword arts. Actual sword arts, not speculation on the relative merits of a type of blade which has never existed. It sounds way too much like the old buster sword threads or Sakabato. There are forums for that sort of thing. This just isn't it.
I still don't believe this thread warrants locking so don't get your knickers in a twist. Just thought I'd post a warning that we were drifting in that direction.
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At any rate, thanks for the link, however, with such an amount of authorities on blade handling and usage all ready at my disposal, I dont feel the need to join another forum.
While there are a few people on this board who know something about various styles of swordsmanship and a few who know something about the types of metallurgy which are important for the creation of swords, with a couple of exceptions I wouldn't refer to anyone who posts here regularly as authorities in their respective fields. There are plenty of knowledgable people here, but not many true authorities. That's why I suggested Swordforum.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/24/06 11:18 PM
You are correct Charles, you are the forum moderator. Which was the exact point I was trying to make when you said you were enforcing rules that were in place BEFORE you as if you were obliged to do so. And while the sword I describe may not have existed in the specific manner in which I describe, there are various swords with serrations in them. None of them do them down the length of the blade, or as close of a grouping, but the fact that it has been done must mean that there is some merit to doing so.Or seeking information on doing so.
As for another forum, why would that spawn any more "authorities" than any other forum? At least here, I know who I am communicating with.
And lastly, as for my knickers, if you choose to close the thread then do so. I'll simply reopen it within my own forum. My problem remains in the fact that every time I have posted within this forum, Ive been talked down to and looked down upon. Since Im new to this particular forum let me make it known again, I am not below Anyone. Anywhere. I WILL be respected as an equal.
Posted by: iaibear
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/25/06 09:41 AM
Just for laughs - -
Assuming a machete is considered a blade, I have one in regular use for trimming the trails around my Adirondack camp. How well it cuts used to be determined by the type of swing: a straight bash versus an elliptical katana cut. Then I hit a bit of barb wire, putting a notch in the edge: instant serration. It seems to cut better now.
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You are correct Charles, you are the forum moderator. Which was the exact point I was trying to make when you said you were enforcing rules that were in place BEFORE you as if you were obliged to do so.
OK. Now your comment makes sense. I had thought you had missed the idea that I was the moderator. I had brought up that they predate me to rule out any perceived personal bias on my part. I agree with them wholeheartedly. I am not merely applying old rules out of a sense of duty.
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As for another forum, why would that spawn any more "authorities" than any other forum? At least here, I know who I am communicating with.
Well... As I was refering you to a forum where Swordsmiths hang out, I should think the answer to this question should be self evident. If you want to seek the opinions of swordsmiths about a sword, you might want to go to one where they hang out. The fact is, there aren't really any swordsmiths who frequent this forum so far as I'm aware. There are a number who regularly post at Swordforum. Thus the likelihood of finding more authorities on that forum is somewhat better there.
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And lastly, as for my knickers, if you choose to close the thread then do so. I'll simply reopen it within my own forum. My problem remains in the fact that every time I have posted within this forum, Ive been talked down to and looked down upon. Since Im new to this particular forum let me make it known again, I am not below Anyone. Anywhere. I WILL be respected as an equal.
Nobody is speaking down to you. I apolgize for the Knickers comment. It was a careless offhand remark not meant to be offensive.
As I stated before, I am leaving the thread open for now as I don't think we've actually crossed the line yet, only drifted a little close.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/26/06 12:53 AM
Thank you Charles.
When I think of a sword "Authority" I dont often consider the Smith. I would think that, when asking about functional application, that such a question would be better suited to the handlers and practitioners, rather than just the creator.
With that being said, I asked here first, to see if such a thing has been handled, and what the opinions of a regular sword handler would be towards a blade that wasnt traditionally edged.
Well there aren't really all that many people here that I would consider authorities on the use of swords either. There are only a handful of people here who have trained with swords for longer than 10 years, much less someone who could be considered an authority. If you were to go to Swordforum you could find 20 to 30 regular posters with more than 10 years of experience, and quite a few with more than 20 years, and a few with more than 30. I am afraid that some of them are less than polite about fanciful questions however so if you go over there, be prepared for a certain amount of dismissal. If you go over there, don't go to the JSA forum. Try the general forum, or one of the smith forums.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/27/06 09:31 AM
Ju Chi Jian = "Saw Toothed Sword"
Probably wouldn't feel fictional if you got hit by this Chinese sword.
Posted by: aoishi
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/27/06 12:21 PM
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Ju Chi Jian = "Saw Toothed Sword"
Probably wouldn't feel fictional if you got hit by this Chinese sword.
Of course there is also the "Tebutje", the shark tooth swords of the Gilbert Islanders, the German "flamberge" style swords, the waved "kris" swords and daggers from Malay.
Also, if you peruse the pages of George Stone's seminal work, "Arms and Armor: A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of", you will also see some finely serrated Indian swords, almost like the teeth of a comb.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/27/06 10:44 PM
fanciful questions?
Posted by: iaibear
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 08:50 AM
Heck. Even the Aztec Indians had swords with a row of sharp flints set on either edge.
Posted by: aoishi
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 08:56 AM
Obsidian actually and what do you mean be "even"?
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Heck. Even the Aztec Indians had swords with a row of sharp flints set on either edge.
It's kind of a stretch to define that as a serrated sword.
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fanciful questions?
Yes as it is speculative in nature and has little to do with established sword arts. For this forum, it is fanciful in that way.
Posted by: harlan
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 09:10 AM
I've been reading this thread, and reviewing the Sword Arts rules/'mission statement' and wondering: if there is no 'art' to be discussed, if it's just a weapon that is being considered...should this thread even be here? Seems like a candidate for the overall 'weapons' forum.
That was the point I was trying to make.
Also, I don't think I would call the Flambard and Flamberge types of swords serrated. Sure they have a wavy blade, but they do not appear to be serrations per se, and both the aztec and shark tooth swords are really clubs with some sharp stuff stuck on the side for more clobbering power.
My google fu must be weakening, I have been unable to locate any reference on the "Ju Chi Jian" blade mentioned above. Anyone have a link?
Posted by: cxt
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 09:42 AM
Charles
It might well be that even though various people thu history had the technical capacity to make a serrated edged sword----by and large they decided not to.
There may be some examples---rare ones, but almost all swords did not employ serrations.
Since they were people that had to depend on their weapons for their lives--its unlikely--not impossible of course--just unlikely--that they would have not have used a such a blade if it gave them a clear advantage.
Just a thought.
Posted by: iaibear
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 06:30 PM
<< Obsidian actually and what do you mean be "even"? >>
OK. Obsidian mounted as napped segments spaced along the edges of a wooden club. Are we going to get picky about warriors with stone age weaponry wielding swords which are usually defined as being forged metal?
www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4928
Posted by: pgsmith
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 07:31 PM
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Since Im new to this particular forum let me make it known again, I am not below Anyone. Anywhere. I WILL be respected as an equal.
Sorry that this is off topic, but I do have to say that there is something wrong if you feel that you have to DEMAND respect. Respect is something that is earned, not given by decree. Personally, you've not earned any from me.
Now, on to the topic at hand ... a serrated sword would NOT stand up to the rigors of usage. Swords, by their very nature, must withstand a lot of pressure on the hardened cutting edge. To add serrations would greatly increase the risk of failure. Secondly, serrated swords would not cut properly. The sword is meant as a slicing weapon. It is specifically designed to slice flesh. Serrated knives are meant for sawing. This is why you will never find a chef using a serrated butcher knife. You can slice easily with a sharp edge. A serrated edge will grab and create drag as the points of the serration engage.
It would probably work OK if you wished to saw through your opponent. If you wanted to cut him, as swords are meant to do, it would be much less effective.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 08:04 PM
Personally, I could care less if Ive EARNED anything from you. As Ive been an active member for over four years and a Moderator of this site, I believe that I deserve to be treated with respect, when I have been respectful. If you do not agree, so what?
As for rather or not a serrated sword would cut, I think that remains in what are you looking for in a cut. Do you wish for a clean slice ir a ragged tear? Personally I think the tearing and ripping aspect would be of better use, especially against armor.
The probelm with a jagged tearing cut is that it would be superficial. The reason you want a clean slice is for penetration. Tearing up the skin doesn't do much good. Sure it's painful and leaves nasty scars, but with the adrenaline pumping your opponent is going to ignore that kind of injury and gut you. Severing muscle tissue two or three inches in does a great deal of good however. Physically dismantling your opponent's skeletal/muscular infrastructure is going to go a long way towards negating the affect of adrenaline.
You don't typically cut armor, you bash it or you look for weak points. A serrated edge would still do you little good for either endeavor, worse the points of the serration would absorb a disproportinate amount of the enourmous stresses involved when your blade hits something hard(such as your opponents armor). Seems to me that the valleys between the points would be natural weak points where cracks could easily form.
As for the whole respect thing, especially in the sword world you will find it very much something that is earned and not just handed out to anyone who thinks they deserve it. There are an amazing number of crackpots running around claiming to teach some form of sword work or other. Each and every one of them demand respect. I'm not saying you fall into this category, just trying to explain why the sword community tends to take precious little on faith.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/28/06 11:31 PM
And where I am from, people respect all others, until reason has been given not to. Ive had my share of this forum. Thanks for your time.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Serrated Sword? - 11/29/06 07:49 AM
The Chinese sword I mentioned was used for street demonstrations. I've never read anywhere yet it being used as a weapon in combat, but live theatrics and performances used to be quite popular in China - so much so, that it was mentioned in several Chinese MA training manuals from the 19th cen. and described in the context of how it was contributing to the downfall of useful combative skill...a sort of 1800's version of 'XMA'.
The sharks-tooth and studded blades were for bludgeoning, not cutting. serrated blades thru-out history seem to unanomously have been used for cutting thru bone and trees. eg. saws.
Thats not to say it wouldn't hurt if you got whacked by one. that's also not to say serrated edges were never used as a weapon in combat. There are no writings anywhere that kobudo 'kama' was ever used in combat, yet it's generally not considered as a fictitious, non-combative, demonstrative weapon. why? because it's based on faith that it would be effective.
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just trying to explain why the sword community tends to take precious little on faith.
I found this comment interesting. How would someone stress-test sword combat theory? there is an amount of faith inherent in all combative arts.
just as in weaponless arts, since we can't actually hurt each other in training -it is a simulation, there is an amount of faith bounded by imagination of what 'could' happen. curiously, this also happens to be what theatrical MA is all about as well...with varying degrees of believablity.
From a training perspective, a historical demonstrative sword is just as real in it's historical and theoretical sense as a sword known to have been used for combat.
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just trying to explain why the sword community tends to take precious little on faith.
I found this comment interesting. How would someone stress-test sword combat theory? there is an amount of faith inherent in all combative arts.
Perhaps I should have been more specific. We tend to take little on faith when dealing with people online. Particularly on boards like this one, where people aren't even required to use their real names.
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And where I am from, people respect all others, until reason has been given not to. Ive had my share of this forum. Thanks for your time.
I am sorry you feel that way Chen Zen. You are welcome here. Believe it or not.