are thease swords any good?

are either thease swords any good for just swinging around in my back yard and hitting things.will they even hold together?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140010067591

or this one

http://www.trueswords.com/shirisaya-traditional-katana-p-650.html

They're from ebay. They're not good.

They're worth 11$. They're definately not good.

Do not buy a sword that costs less than 100$. A Paul Chen practical katana is the cheapest real sword you want to buy. Anything less is probably of VERY low quality.

At least a wallhanger will cut pool noodles if you need it to, those swords you just posted would probably snap on a blade of grass.

Those are what is popularly known as wallhangers. So named because hanging on the wall is about all they're good for.

It's obvioius you're knew to swords. I'd suggest reading a few choice threads.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6529

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

Also you can gain a basic knowledge of real Japanese swords at Richard Stein's Japanese Sword Index at http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Why just swinging around in your backyard? Why not find somewhere to train for real?

Anyway, welcome to the forum.

thanks and im going to start kendo after summers over but i hsve to wait till then to get good swords scince im only 15 and my parents will be paying, i was just looking for a cheap sword for like 30-60$ to get used to a real katana while i wait. i already have a bokken but it dosent feel as real as my friends katana.

would this be better as its full tangand u can see it?

http://www.trueswords.com/bushido-samurai-sword-full-tang-battle-ready-p-2095.html

Wow, a "full tang" sword that is actually full tang. I've only seen that once before, by Kris Cutlery. Here's the deal. The hilt of a sword softens the impact as well as protects the blade from your sweat. Otherwise, after a single class or battle, you would have rust all along the tang from your sweat. The only realistic and usable tang is what I call a 3/4 enclosed tang. This encompasses almost every historical Eastern or European sword that we have ever seen, and the majority of the other times were when there was no tang at all (as in a katar or pata).

Let me give you a few reasons why all these swords are not worth the bandwidth to get the pictures.

1st: Stainless Steel = Suicide
Stainless is filled with Chromium, any stainless alloy of any hardness will be dangerously brittle. When you strike anything with a stainless blade, you run a risk of shattering the steel. The shards can fly everywhere, including your legs and/or eyes. I haven't hear of anyone killed when their sword shattered, but I have seen at least one massive scar on a man's leg, and other injuries are very common. Almost no one in that situation gets out unscathed.

2nd: You Get What You Pay for or Less, Never More
To make a good sword, you need good materials. A six foot bar of quality S7 steel will set you back $40-$60.
Quality wood and brass fittings will cost ~$20.
Charcoal for the fire is expensive due to the quantity, $20 easily during the entire process. You need good charcoal to prevent adding sulfer to the steel (good for shattering fun).
That's $70-$90 of materials just for the blade itself, not counting wear and tear on the forge, hammers, bellows, mills, anvils, saws, and other used materials (including clay, water/oil for quenching, etc), much less the rent for the building, electricity for the lights, the salesman who brings you the sword, the insurance on the place, etc.

Now, you come to the expensive part, labor.

A blade takes a lot of time to make. Let's keep a very simple estimate. 8 hours forging, 3 hours hardening and tempering (so the blade keeps an edge without being brittle), 3 hours sharpening and polishing, 3 hours casting/carving the furniture, half an hour to assemble (make that 1 1/2 for wrapped grips), and another half an hour to test. That's 19 man-hours for a single blade. Note that this is a very low estimate. It doesn't take into account special techniques (traditional Japanese tamahagne forging takes 40-60 hours just to make the blade), or any specific request.

Now, the labor rates are also very high. A traditional Japanese swordsmith apprenticeship takes five years. The longest I know is Angelsword's apprenticeship, twelve years from start to finish, and they will only consider college graduates. Now, would you want to have spent decades in school to work for minimum wage? Not even in China will skilled swordsmiths work for the sum necessary to get those blade prices. 20 to 30 hours of a skilled professional at even $30 an hour is $600-$900, and would you get the equivalent of a doctoral education to make $60,000 a year full time?

Then, you have profit. If a business doesn't make profit, they falter and die. These businesses have been around for years, so you know they aren't losing money.

So, these swords are selling for $50-$150. How? By making sacrifices, big sacrifices. Cheap steel doesn't cost as much, but unless you invest a lot more time in it, quality suffers. Trained swordsmiths aren't necessary, have a mill carve the blade into the correct shape (note: good swords can come from mills, but that is only if they are properly heat treated, mills soften any austentite in the steel to a soft pearlite), get a Chinese steelworker/farmer and give him a one week course on quenching a blade to get a hammon. Get another Chinese workman to polish the blade in 15 minutes. Don't test your products, that takes time and money, and we need to get them across the Pacific quickly.

You won't get a quality sword under $1,000 American. Even the better cheap companies like Cold Steel and Paul Chen have terrible quality control below their upper lines.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear, but it needed to be said. Do actual research. Don't trust some guy on a forum because he sounds smart and has a large number beside the "number of posts" label. Do your research, learn about hardening and tempering, austentite, pearlite, marstensite, the design and history of the various blade styles (longsword, claymore, rapier, katana, dao, jian). Perhaps you should learn to use one, and be worthy of the sword that you are purchasing. There's no hurry, you've only got one lifetime, so you shouldn't waste it on buying the first thing you see.

Full tanged or not, these swords are made out of steel that's not supposed to be used in a sword outside of the wall hangers
that were mentioned before. You probably won't find a sword that's even close to a real sword under $150. The majority of
the swords on trueswords aren't made for anything more then decoration. Though, if your just practicing forms or something
with them, then I suppose a fake sword isn't that bad, so long as you don't put too much strain on it, and definitely
do not try to cut something with it, but if your going to buy a sword, I'd say save up for a decent one instead of wasting money.

Sorin

I'd disagree on that, Sorin, I've heard of poorly fitting blades sliding out of their grips when slung around. I wouldn't take the chance even for non-contact practice

what is the diffrence between a carbon and stainless steel blade?

If you are starting Kendo then you should be looking for a good bokuto or a shinai as that is what you will be using in your Kendo classes anyway. A good bokuto will only set you back $30 or so and will be a good training tool for years.

I don't know how much you know, so I'll summarize this briefly. You want two things in a sword, hardness and ductility. Hardness keeps the steel in it's shape. A hard blade will keep it's edge and will not take a bend. Ductility preserves the blade. If a sword was made from diamond, it would shatter. If a sword is not ductile, its edge will chip and the blade itself will break. Unfortunately, the two are inversly related. On the chemical level, more carbon makes the steel harder.

The phrase "carbon steel" is (depending on your point of view) either an oxymoron or redundant, as steel is by definition, an alloy of iron and carbon. "Carbon steel" generally refers to steel with iron, carbon, and nothing else. You have two main variations of this that are used for swords. 1050 steel has .5% carbon and the rest iron. It is an easy to work with, nice steel, but it is really too soft for practical blade use. Significant hardening is needed to make it useful. I know of no good swordsmiths who use 1050 for the edge of a blade. It can be done, but why add unnecessary work?

Then, there is 1065/1075, with (you guessed it) .65% and .75% carbon respectively. 1075 is a good starting steel for swords, though it will still need hardening, you have a higher starting hardness throughout the blade, so it doesn't have a tendency to case harden (where the outer layer is hard, but the inside is soft). 1075 is a commonly used starting steel, and I have heard of katana forged with a 1075 edge and a 1050 spine. There are a number of other, more complex alloys that work well with swords. Read into it.

Now stainless has chromium in it, up to 25%. Above 1% chromium makes steel brittle. Stainless isn't bad for knives, as the steel isn't put through too much strain, however, swords put way too much strain on the blade, and they snap or shatter. There are some non-rusting alloys that aren't brittle, such as the maraging steel in fencing blade, but they are too soft to hold an edge.

One final thing, look into hype before you buy. A lot of the information available is obviously biased either for or against certain smiths (The best example I've ever found is this: On an otherwise very informative page, the review of S7 on is a clear attack against Angelsword). No one is unbiased, so take nothing on faith. For example, that page I mentioned earlier is very informative, but one of it's main deciding points is which steels can show hammons well, which in my opinion, is rating appearance over the actual strength of the blade.

Caveat Emptor, may the buyer beware

I'm a bit curious about what companies/smiths some people on the forum use to get their good quality swords.
It might help out our sword seeking friend here a bit. I personally am looking at www.museumreplicas.com.
Most of their swords are made by Windlass Steelcraft, which I've heard a few good things about. Although my interest
at the moment isn't for practice but more for collecting.

Sorin

I like Angelsword myself. I like the artistry combined with science that has actual data to back it's claims. The kingdom-come warranty doesn't hurt either. I don't agree with some of their energy-art-chi stuff, but their strength clams are based on real science

I'm pretty sure that Charles still swears by SwordStore

Also recomended is Bugei (the highest line of Paul Chen)

Angus Trim - Good fittings and good workmanship, but severely underhardened edges. Personally, not on my recomended list, though good for reinactments/stage

Museum Replicas - Better than some, but not for practical use. Windlass blades can't hold an edge while cutting air. The thing is, they are historically accurate, and once properly dulled would also be good for reinactment or stage.

Then, you have a number of master smiths who go by name alone. Beautiful blades, but if you have to ask, you can't afford them.

Alright, I'm tired of typing, and my boss is getting onto me about the approaching WF deadline. Someone else do the typing. I'm not going to look at this for a few days because I can't help myself.

I personally liked the Atrim swords that I've seen. Didn't think they were too soft at all.

I also think that Angelsword is a bit overpriced, but that's the beauty of swords. Everyone has there own favorites.

The Paul Chen/Hanwei line of swords are all better than the average stainless steel wallhangers. Nihonzashi has good prices on their lower end swords ... http://www.nihonzashi.com/

For higher end western swords, there's Christian Fletcher ... http://www.christianfletcher.com/Site/Welcome.html

Albion Swords ... http://www.albion-swords.com/

Arms and Armor ... http://www.armor.com/

are there any good places around dfw in tx to check out swords like a musem about swords or collections?

There are a number of places in the DFW area where you can see the swords folks actually train with. Paul Smith has a dojo up in McKinney and I train at a dojo in Denton. There is also an Kendo place in Addison which does Iaido as well. They should have a few swords for you to look at.

Oh and the city of Denton has a Hizen Tadayoshi on display at city hall. It was presented to the city by Kogushi Osamu a few years ago. Very nice, if a bit short for my taste.

I've heard that most of the wallhangers are made with a tang that is just a small metal pin that goes into the handle and that when you swing them to hard or swing them fast and come to a fast halt(i.e. hitting the sword on something) the pin can break and then it is possible for the blade of the sword to fly off and possibly hit something or worse, someone.

That's what we call a rat-tail tang.

There is a disection of a wallhanger at the following link. The wallhanger being disected does have a rat tang tail.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=43606&highlight=second+mekugi

Don't want to be around that when the blade takes flight It's a time bomb waiting to happen that can lead to death .

a number of blade manufacturers make full tang katana, such as last legend and kris cutlery. both make blades that are durable and perfectly acceptable for dojo cutting.

I've been toying with the idea of buying a few cheness swords recently. Their prices are good and they have a few blades in the sizes I have been looking for. Consider looking at them. They would make ideal project blades because the furniture included is not very good, but you can increase your knowledge and skill with Japanese swords by replacing tsuba, rewrapping, carving stuka and saya, etc.. by yourself.

can u buy the tsuba and fittings on the site and would that be the best place to buy them if i got one? is there a better site to buy fittings for those swords?

I've had good experiences with shadowofleaves, they sell both cotton and silk ito (the wrap on the handle) and I think they used to sell tsuba as well, I'm not sure if they do anymore. If you're into customizing your katana you may consider even making your own tsuba with a chisel and hammer. Otherwise most sword retailers online carry paul chen tsubas which are good enough (forged iron, never used cast iron tsuba).

There's a site on the net, I can't remember what it's called, they're based in Japan and have an office in Canada, look around on swordforum long enough and you'll find it. They occasionally give away free furniture and sometimes blades with kizu (flaws/scars) to beginner polishers.

you can also buy habaki, koiguchi, etc.. from shadowofleaves, but I think those things tend to be more personalized. You may want to build your own or have someone make them to your specifications if you're going to customize a blade. Chances are a blade you customize won't be used for cutting, it's usually just something pretty to look at and learn from.

Check swordforum.com for sword customization threads, the search function there is great. Remember to register using both your real first and last name.

If you are starting kendo, you don't need something that is useable. IMO you should save your money and get nicer bogu.

so on this site I basically just ask for a flawed katana and they'll give it to me?

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so on this site I basically just ask for a flawed katana and they'll give it to me?

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If you're you're the first to ask for it yes. It's strictly for polishers / projects though. The kizu on free blades are always fatal ones, i.e. overpolished to the soft metal on the ha, wrecked the shinogi, wrecked the kissaki etc. And there's usually a line up of people waiting for those (Including me!) so you have to be quick.