Rank in the Way of the Sword
Just out of curiosity I wanted to post this. I am a Karateka, first and foremost. I also have some experience with Jujutsu and my Sensei was an elderly Japanese gentleman named Tetsu (Ken) Kimura who attended the Toyama Officers School where the famed Toyama Ryu comes from. He also studied other sword arts that included Itto Ryu. Thing is, he never claimed to have a rank, and in his teaching me the sword arts, I never received a rank. It was more about transmission of knowledge among both him and my Karate instructor. I have been offered rank by other Instructors, but do not feel it correct to accept rank from someone who I did not train under. Why is rank in the sword arts important? I have never had a problem teaching the arts I do to anyone and have even gotten away from rank in Karate. Is rank really that important?
I am a pretty good guy with a Katana, not great, but after many years of training, I do okay.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/22/06 09:46 PM
Rank is a simple matter of indicating a very general level of experience and expertise. Various forms of rank go back several hundred years in Japan. Rank only holds meaning to members of the organization which issued the rank, and to certain individuals outside the issuing organization which also have a good understanding of the ranking criteria. Rank also makes for a handy fund raising tool. You can train hard and long in Toyama Ryu, but without rank other members of the ryu may not take you particularly seriously. It is not meaningless tripe, but neither is it the end all be all of training, nor is it necessarily a good indication of skill.
If your organization is happy without rank. Good for you.
BTW. Toyama Ryu does issue rank. I'm sure Itto Ryu does as well although I have no idea how it's ranking system works. If your instructor issued no rank in either system, it might be as simple as him not being authorized to do so.
Posted by: Sensei Paul Hart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/22/06 11:03 PM
No organization, just me. I practise what I have learned, daily. I do not claim any rank, as I have never been given any. Honestly, when asked what style of sword art I do, I claim that I do only what Sensei taught me. That way I avoid the rank pitfall. I see your point about being in the group, but that would be about it. I have met a few who are very high ranked who know little, and a few who have no rank who know so much. Sensei trained in Toyama Ryu and some of what we do looks like Toyama Ryu, but I wouldn't call it Toyama Ryu. I have never named it, and would have a problem if I had to.
Posted by: Benjamin1986
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 11:35 AM
I'm happy with the way fencing does it. You earn a rank determined by who you beat at the tournaments. It gives you an idea about what you will be facing and gives a reward for winning without putting too much emphasis on earning ranks or belts.
The full rating system is shown
here (click on "Event Ratings" on the menu to the left, sorry about the lack of a direct link). This system prevents a large number of problems that seem to confront traditional MA rankings (ie: why hasn't my child advanced yet? Answer: Because he hasn't won). Also, it helps keep up interest in doing well, as improving your rank always seems to be just around the corner (you only need to win two direct elimination bouts to get your E, yet it can take years to do so).
Unfortunately, the system does make winning a priority over self improvement or enjoying the past-time. It also rewards hard to block techniques that take advantage of the rules (ie: the flick). It also tends to have a degree of inflation, as more ranked people means higher ranked tournaments, but you can't complain that people are awarding ranks unearned.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 12:52 PM
Paul
Overall rank is of little importance in koryu arts.
Your pretty much a student, an advanced student or the guy/gal teaching the class.
What counts in a teacher is training time and the ability to teach the information they have.
Posted by: pgsmith
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 02:35 PM
Quote:
Why is rank in the sword arts important? I have never had a problem teaching the arts I do to anyone and have even gotten away from rank in Karate. Is rank really that important?
Nope! As others have said, rank isn't really important at all. However, certification does come into play when involved in the Japanese sword schools. What you are teaching may be just fine, and there is no problem with it as you presented it (other than calling yourself sensei!). However, if you wanted to state that you were teaching Toyama ryu, at least one of the existing Toyama ryu groups would probably get upset that you were teaching Toyama ryu without any sort of official licensure. This is where rank within the Japanese sword arts becomes important. If I started declaring that I taught Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu when I didn't have proper authorization to do so, I could well end up being a tameshigiri target. However, if I said that I taught an unnamed collection of techniques that my sensei taught me, then the Sekiguchi ryu would not care in the least. The koryu have been handed down for centuries, and they tend to get fairly upset about the possibility that unqualified people may be changing them.
Posted by: Sensei Paul Hart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 02:58 PM
The "Sensei" does not come from the sword arts, but comes from Karate. I have posted on this forum a number of times in the other areas. I was offered rank from one of the Toyama Ryu Federations. He explained that I could then teach "his" style. I found it humorous and refused. He and I are still friends but I do not do "his" style. It is kind of funny that you mention being a Tameshigiri Target. I have once had a challenge similar to that thrown at me by a gentleman who did not like my opinions in Martial Arts. I removed my Katana from it's bag and smiling said, whenever you wish, Sir. I like to think that I have a pretty good spirit about me, and that if I were to die tomorrow, I would die as I have lived, with honor and bravery. Most of the guys who are truly of high rank are at least familiar to me, and some are very good friends, so in that area I have little problem. After 33 years in the Martial Arts, you get that kind of relationship with some. I even had one Sensei tell me after a conversation and transmission of technique that my fellow Karateka would be surprised to know I have that kind of experiance. I replied that in Okinawa there were Samurai to, they were called Peichin.
Posted by: pgsmith
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 03:42 PM
Quote:
The "Sensei" does not come from the sword arts, but comes from Karate.
Wasn't referring to the sword arts. You made it pretty clear what you were teaching and talking about and, as I said, it shouldn't give anyone any problems. It was just a little jab about the fact that in the Japanese arts, it is considered a very large breach of ettiquette to refer to yourself as sensei. It is a word that is only used in conjunction with someone else. I do understand that karateka use it differently.
Pretty strange about the Toyama ryu thing. As far as I was aware, all three Toyama ryu branches require authorization from the higher-ups in Japan in order to confer rank. Never heard of one that could grant rank on their own.
Posted by: Sensei Paul Hart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 05:44 PM
I am unsure about that, the Instructor told me that he would be happy to give me rank in the system. He may have had to get it approved, but I am unsure. It was just a comment he made, and probably knew I would never take him up on it. Yes, we refer to Sensei as teachers, much as a Japanese school teacher would tell you he or she is a Sensei. I grew up at Yakota and in Nagoya so the Japanese ways are some what familiar to me. I know that in the way of the sword they follow a more stringent adherence to rules of etiquette. This is not the same in Karate, and I only teach my sword skills to members of my Karate group. Not many of those actually get to train with me in the sword arts, I keep it very low key. I am not very advanced myself, just know a bit about history and what Kimura Sensei taught. Funny thing, Hanashiro Sensei, who was my Karate Instructor, also did a sword art. It is not very usual for that in Japan. I am familiar with Karate's history enough to know that Anko Asato and Sokon Matsumura were both excellent swordsman.
Kimura sensei was probably the best swordsman I have ever seen, along with skills with the spear, naginata, kusarigama and in archery. I only witnessed him do archery from horseback one time, but find it amazing anyone could hit a target so small while riding as hard as they do. Of all the arts, this would be the one I am impressed with the most.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 09:12 PM
Paul is correct. It is a fundamental rule of Japanese that you do not refer to yourself with an honorific. You would not say "Boku no namae wa Hart-sensei" anymore than you would say "Boku no namae wa Hart-san". You might tell someone that you are an Iaido sensei as a way of describing your position within a group. But you would not use the honorific in the way you are using it with your screen name. Pretty sure we've talked about this before. That was Paul's point.
Posted by: Sensei Paul Hart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 09:38 PM
Yes, I do understand what you are saying. I have also been kind enough to have met some Sensei from the orient who have told me that I could call them Mr. Blank or Sensei Blank. This is the way of things in America. Most know me as Sensei Paul or Sensei Hart, I have come to accept this and if you ask me my name I will politely tell you I am Paul Hart, if you ask what I do, I will tell you I am a Sensei, and after asking a few Japanese who have been kind enough to let me know, they have said it is acceptable in these times to do this. There are two other Paul Hart's out there, one is a Sifu, and the other is a Aikido stylist, when I took the name I wanted to differentiate myself from the others as I teach Karate. As Mr. Ye said, that makes you a Sensei.
Names seem to get mistaken from time to time. Such as when you said Paul is right. I am Paul as well, I guess I could have taken the name Karate Paul or something, but since everyone I know calls me Sensei Hart, I figured, what the hell. Maybe if I lived in Japan someone would challenge me on it, then they could call me Sensei or loser, either way doesn't matter to me. Just dont call me late for diner.
I believe in an earlier conversation you directed me to a Rob Redmond article about Sensei. I do not agree with this article as it has many incorrect assumptions. I will leave it at that and not say another thing about it. Not worth arguing over, IMHO. I will attemp to change it for you as I could care les what I am called.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/23/06 11:22 PM
I have changed my name, just for you.
Posted by: pepto_bismol
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 01:11 AM
Quote:
I have changed my name, just for you.
I guess making multiple accounts is popular these days 
Posted by: schanne
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 08:46 AM
and......if you wanted to keep your name it would be
Paul Hart Sensei, not Sensei Paul Hart.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 09:16 AM
Actually, if you wanted to be Japanese, which I am not, it would be Hart Paul Sensei, but in America it is permissable to reverse it based on custom to Sensei Paul Hart. But like I said, who cares.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 01:21 PM
Paul
Not to be all "nit-picky" but:
"If you ask me what I do--I tell that I am a sensei"
Does not really answer the question.
A "sensei" is a teacher (more or less--the term is bit more complex than that) but it does not tell you what kind of teacher you might be.
There are bonsai teachers, tea teachers, etc.
You would need to "tack on" the specific kind of teacher that you were, otherwise you could be someone's math tutor.
Even in the martial arts "sensei" really does not narrow it down much.
Just some random thoughts.
Posted by: splice
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 01:26 PM
Quote:
Actually, if you wanted to be Japanese, which I am not, it would be Hart Paul Sensei, but in America it is permissable to reverse it based on custom to Sensei Paul Hart. But like I said, who cares.
It's common and perfectly acceptable for foreigners to say their names either first name first or last name first.
However, I doubt it's correct or "permissible" to reverse the order of honorifics so that it's "Sensei nani-nani" instead of the correct way "nani-nani sensei". I also have never heard anyone call someone "san nani-nani" instead of "nani-nani san", or "chan nani nani", or "kun nani nani", or any other example of honorific before the name.
Yes, it's common for foreigners to do it, you see it often, but it's just as incorrect as saying "desu amerika-jin" instead of "amerika-jin desu".
Reversing your name stems from a fundamental difference in how Japanese use names and how Westerners use names. However, an honorific coming after the term it characterizes is a grammatical structure, and there really should be no argument either way, whether you're a foreigner or not.
Of course, this is all about the language itself, not martial arts, and so should have no bearing on what you practice. However, we can't deny that Japanese martial arts are intricately tied to Japanese culture and the Japanese language. It's not about becoming Japanese, but it is about learning what your sensei teaches. If your sensei tells you to call yourself "Sensei so-and-so", then just do it and don't mind the naysayers. You should remain aware, however, that you're currently posting on a board where your title doesn't apply. It might be viewed as making a claim you don't mean to make.
Perhaps it might be best for us to not tell people about it and let them find out on their own, if they do. Part of the problem is that the Japanese sensei that's visiting and hearing someone call himself "sensei such and such" might not say a thing, but will have thoughts about it and evaluate the character of the person accordingly. It's a touchy subject.
But then, there's no reason Japanese etiquette should come naturally to us, is there?
Posted by: splice
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 01:32 PM
Quote:
A "sensei" is a teacher (more or less--the term is bit more complex than that) but it does not tell you what kind of teacher you might be.
It perhaps has the feeling of "teacher", but doesn't encompass all there is. A medical doctor, a novelist, a musician, an artist can all be called sensei.
I think it may have more to do with experience rather than the teaching aspect. Someone who's attained a superior ability at a certain skill would be sensei. Teaching mostly comes with the territory, but what is a manga artist teaching you, really? Yet he might still be called sensei.
To me, sensei is the guy in front the class. Keeps it simple.
If you really want to be safe, just call everyone "x-sama". Although some might think you're being sarcastic 
Posted by: Halley
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 01:47 PM
Though I am just beginning my studies of nihongo, I have mentally tied the honorific 'sensei' with the verb 'oshiete'. That verb seems a bit slippery in English too. A sensei is one who shows, teaches, demonstrates, exposes, divulges, mentors, leads, develops or nurtures someone else.
This reminds me of a character gag in the movie, Zatoichi meets Yojimbo: the townsfolk referred to the mercenary ronin as 'sensei,' whether the ronin wanted the honor or not.
I really need to develop my storyboard for a short anime piece, "My Neighbor Toshiro," where a few little neighborhood kids learn Japanese wisdom and witticisms from the spirit of the late samurai movie actor Toshiro "Yojimbo" Mifune.
Posted by: Benjamin1986
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 02:57 PM
Once you think about it, Splice. It follows English nomenclature perfectly. Honorifics are given before the name.
General Eisenhower
President Washington
Mr. Smith
Principal Howard.
Dr. Bob Jone
So Sensei Paul Hart is the correct English form of the word.
However, I've always disliked using foreign terms for these sorts of things. Even though fencing is French, I don't use the French terms. The meaning is obscured by the use of foreign terms, so the substance is lost. Grip, guard, strong/middle/weak parts of the blade, and edge all mean things to people when they first begin; tsuka, tsuba, tsuba moto/chu o/mono uchi, and ha don't. You want the central focus of your teaching to be the art, not the vocabulary.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 03:09 PM
Ben
With all due respect I have to disagree.
Most of the time the "vocabluary" IS the art. Each art/hobby develops its own terms and meanings--usually pretty specific to what is going on.
I don't climb with folks that don't knoww what to do when ask them to "toss me a biner" or I yell "belay."
Its not understanding the correct term or its usage that creates problems.
Its the translation--usually poorly, from the "native" one that causes confusion.
Most of the time, although certainly not all the time, the words have specific, detailed, meaning in the orignal language.
Its the TRANSLATIONS that often are less than accurate and "obscure" the meaning.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 03:09 PM
You are correct, and that is why I say it. I have found that most do not care what you say, it is a pleasantry. Others who have studied Martial Arts sometimes say, what style do you teach and still others ask what is a Sensei, to which I reply with simply, a teacher. I try not to advertise that I do or teach Martial arts, more or less, if you ask me and I do not know you, I would say I use to do it. Only after I have evaluated you as a friend or an enemy would I decide to bring you into my confidence. Sensei is used so easily over the ocean in Japan. If I were there and someone asked me what I did, I would say I was a Teacher, if they wanted more, I would say I taught Continuing Education Classes, which I do on occasion.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 03:22 PM
While I will agree with you that to perform the art it does not require the terminology, I feel that the terminology inparts a certain feeling to a transmission. I also feel that in order to honor the teachers from before, who are Japanese or Okinawan, we should use the terms they use. Do I ever say Round Kick instead of Mawashi geri, of course. But by the time you have become a true student, I feel you should have a working knowledge of the terms. Of course, this is just opinion. Yours can vary from mine and in America I can respect that, because it is the way of this country. Sensei is as much a specialty word here in America as saying En Passant in Chess. It is not an English word but is accepted for English useage. My name in Japanese would actually be Shin Sensei, I am unsure of the correct translation for Paul. But that would only be in Japan. I will continue to allow people to call me Sensei Hart as I feel in America it is and should be accepted. Just a difference of opinion there again, and I accept that and do not say Mr. Mahan's opinion is wrong either, just that we do not share the same opinion.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 03:23 PM
And you would be right to describe yourself as a sensei, but would you give your name by saying Paul Hart desu? Or would you give your name by saying Paul Hart-sensei desu?
No one is saying you shouldn't use the term sensei. It just shouldn't be used in the way you were using it. I think there is an important distinction between sensei as noun and sensei as honorific.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 03:29 PM
Ah, I see your question. Yes, in Japan I would say Hart Sensei, even in Jujutsu, which I do not take part in very often, I use the term in the back of the name, like Hiroshi Sensei or Thomas Sensei. In America it is permissible to use it in front of the name. I am in America so that is acceptable, IMHO. I have been wrong before however.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 05:19 PM
I can't tell if you understand what I'm getting at or not, so bear with me.
The question is not, would I call you Hart-sensei? The question is would you call yourself Hart-sensei? Or would Hiroshi-sensei call himself Hiroshi-sensei?
See what I'm getting at? It's not appropriate to add ANY honorific to your own name when talking about yourself. Not sama, not chan, not kun, not san, not sempai, no kohai, and not sensei.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 06:04 PM
Unless everyone walks around in their gi, no one would know to add "Sensei" to someone's name, unless they had acquired "great stature" in the martial arts community and were known immediately upon appearance in their street clothes.
None of the Japanese who visit with us call themselves "sensei", but almost everyone around them calls them "sensei XXXX". The problem is that unless you have the genetic structure to automatically know who's a sensei and who's not, the internet doesn't allow for much of that identification process.
Our Aikido school only recognizes Sandan and up as "sensei", but anyone wearing a hakama or black belt is just as likely to be called that in conversation during explanations of technique or if they aren't a "regular" at the school. All those other titles, such as "sempai" aren't used at all... i.e., we don't call someone "Sempai Jones"... we just call them by their given name or by "Mr. Jones".
I have to laugh that this is even an issue. My karate teacher always told us to call him "Bob"... go figure...
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 09:48 PM
Yes, I get what you are saying. However, I do not agree with it. In Japan it is not uncommon for a teacher to say she or he is such. In America it is much more common, so as I said, when in Rome...but yes, I do understand what you are getting at.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 10:01 PM
I'm still not sure you do. Of course teachers are willing to say they are teachers. That's not the point at all.
I also agree with wristtwister. There is really no point in continuing this.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/24/06 10:13 PM
Agreed Sir, no hard feelings either way.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 03:40 PM
Quote:
None of the Japanese who visit with us call themselves "sensei", but almost everyone around them calls them "sensei XXXX".
"everyone around them" being Americans?
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 03:44 PM
Quote:
Yes, I get what you are saying. However, I do not agree with it. In Japan it is not uncommon for a teacher to say she or he is such.
Not uncommon if someone is talking about their profession, but I think the point is that simply referring to yourself (as in introduction, etc) with the honorific attached to your own name sounds kinda wierd.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 04:59 PM
It (was) a screen name, not a business card or an introduction. It was meant as a way of saying I teach the martial arts. Over analyzing can drive you crazy. I do not call and say "Hello, this is Sensei Paul Hart" or even tell people in class to call me such. I could have made it Teacher Paul Hart, but I did not think it sounded as good and it did not even start to explain that I taught an Asian discipline.
This thread was about the reasoning behind rank in the Japanese sword arts, something that I see little use in. We do not go out and test these skills against others, although I feel it may be rather fun to do this. Perhaps we can get the thread back on track or lock it down. If we wish to argue over screen names, perhaps we can start a "Screen Names in Martial Arts Forums" threads. That way if we do not like what someone has decided to call themselves, we can say it isn't truly the way to do things. Matter of fact, I really think a lot of the screen names I read are rather silly. But it is a screen name so what ever makes the person happy is fine.
I emailed Yasuko Idei, a professor who taught at a college in Kumamoto. She is now retired and was nice enough to answer some questions. She said that "when it comes to screen names there are no Japanese rules that exist or that have really been universally adopted. The term Sensei has different uses in America and in Japan, and what is permissible in America may not be as well received in Japan. In Japan, the title would come after the name, but in America it would not be improper to place the title before the name" which is how I understood it as well. As Mr. Mahan said, I think its time we move past this and get back on the thread which is Rank in the Way of the Sword.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 05:05 PM
Quote:
This thread was about the reasoning behind rank in the Japanese sword arts, something that I see little use in. We do not go out and test these skills against others, although I feel it may be rather fun to do this. Perhaps we can get the thread back on track or lock it down. If we wish to argue over screen names, perhaps we can start a "Screen Names in Martial Arts Forums" threads. That way if we do not like what someone has decided to call themselves, we can say it isn't truly the way to do things. Matter of fact, I really think a lot of the screen names I read are rather silly. But it is a screen name so what ever makes the person happy is fine.
I emailed Yasuko Idei, a professor who taught at a college in Kumamoto. She is now retired and was nice enough to answer some questions. She said that "when it comes to screen names there are no Japanese rules that exist or that have really been universally adopted. The term Sensei has different uses here and in Japan, and what is permissible here may not be as well received in Japan. In Japan, the title would come after the name, but in America it would not be improper to place the title before the name" which is how I understood it as well.
LOL She was probably wondering why you'd be bothering with such a question.
Am I reading this wrong, or do I sense some defensiveness here? I figured it was just an interesting point of discussion.
So anyway, why do you see little use in rank in this case? Do you feel that way about ranking in general or just "in the Japanese sword arts"?
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 06:33 PM
No, no defensivness. Just a bit tired of the conversation. I started this thread about Rank in the Sword Arts. Not about what anyone calls anyone. I have checked out the others opinion, and like most, it is an opinion. Nothing more. Kimura Sensei once asked me the difference in Jutsu and Do, to which I replied "art and way" because that was my understanding. He said that it was that but much more. Do is how we live our life. Not the warrior arts, but the life around our warrior arts. Some will concentrate on the things that mean little, and focus all the energy they can on those small things. They follow Do. Others will train for battle, finding what works and care little about their life when it comes to that crucial moment, they follow the Jutsu path. To me, we are talking about the "Do" path while you are resident in Japan.
Rank means little in all things unless you are a child. Say you are a 9th Degree Black Belt. I am a 1st Degree. That rank may matter to you, but if you enter my floor and I defeat you with ease, what does rank matter? I am much more into the Karate than the Japanese foms of the art. In Karate rank did not exist until Funokoshi took it from Kano. Itosu did not have a Dan rank, Matsumura did not, I do not believe Choshin Chibana had one either. So no, rank is not important to me. I find it funny that the one who brought rank to Karate is also the one who spread the School System version out of Okinawa. Fitting, IMHO.
I have renounced my rank in Karate. We have three titles in our system. Gakuto, Tashi and Sensei. What more does anyone who is an adult need?
Posted by: ErikTracy
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 07:09 PM
Strange and ironic turn of events.
Since the rank system was adopted by karate-ka around the world from Judo's system (as developed by Kano Sensei) - it just seems odd to me that this question is applied to sword arts.
Those sword arts that were 'koryu' (traditional) - the belt system was never used. It is only a recent phenomena that folks are preoccupied with 'rank'.
It is of my opinion that those most concerned with rank are that have just achieved their 'black belt'.
In all my dealings with other sword art practitioners, the higher someone's rank the more humble they are and readily acknowledge that rank is not important - since those that are sincere in their practice only come to realize that there is SO much they do NOT know.
Those preoccupied with rank are letting other 'issues' get in the "way".
Erik
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 08:56 PM
Paul,
when you can kill everybody in the dojo, you can wear any rank you want...
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 10:10 PM
I agree with your assessment of Rank in the Sword Arts. I was only asking why there was rank in the sword arts. To me, the art of the sword would seem to be one of the few arts that would maintain traditional structure and not add the belt system. I know many Japanese who have practiced the Sword Arts for more than my lifetime, and yet have no rank. When I asked them about the question they said it is only for associations and show, and has little or no practicality in the art.
Would I be off base in saying that it seems the Sword Arts are going down the same path as the art of Karate when it comes to rank? I will never teach a person the way of the sword and issue rank. Sensei once told me when I asked about rank in Kobudo, that it is part of Karate, and that to separate it from Karate and issue rank separate should not be done. Your Rank in Karate is your rank in Kobudo.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 10:26 PM
Quote:
Rank means little in all things unless you are a child.
We have three titles in our system. Gakuto, Tashi and Sensei. What more does anyone who is an adult need?
Forgetting for a moment that you admit to having rank, just of a simplified form, what is the issue behind the whole "child" "adult" thing? Where did that come from?
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 10:28 PM
I don't think you would be. Many sword arts still do not use the dan system. Some do.
To address Erik's point. I agree wholeheartedly. Nobody really care's what their rank is that I've noticed. As I mentioned way on up the thread before we got sidetracked on the use of titles, rank is only a VERY general indication of experience and skill. It's a useful way of divying up large numbers of students for koushukai, embukai, taikai, etc, and is a handy fund raising tool in large organizations.
If you don't like the use of the dan system by some arts, I'd suggest you take it up with the people in charge of those arts. That said, it's not really our place to second guess the decisions of legitimate successors in the arts which have decided to adopt the dan system. The only ranks that seem particularly important to me within our system are the teaching licenses, renshi, kyoshi, jun hanshi, and hanshi.
One thing I don't understand is the burgeoning backlash against the dan system. It's not for you. Fine. It's not the way it was done in the old days. Fine. It's the way it is now. The folks at the top. The same ones who could, in a fit of madness, decide that from now on the art will always be done in pink tutu's and rainbow striped wigs and that decision would be perfectly legitimate. If soke says we use the dan system, we do it, accept it and be greatful there are no tutus and wigs involved.
Typically the folks who make a big deal out of rank are the folks training at the local McDojo on the corner. The one teaching half a dozen things, to 3 to 18 year olds for the semi-monthly kuroddy tournament of ultimate champions. The folks in traditional training enviornments know better.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/27/06 10:59 PM
It is a developmental thing. Adults are more likely to learn something for knowledge. They have a longer attention span and are more able to accept training for training sake.
Children on the other hand do much better when given short term and long term goals, they are more apt to learn whatever skill set is involved with the next rank. They like the colors and show pride in whatever color they have earned.
I know Mr. Mahan, but when I am re asked the question, I will re answer the question. I did read your post. I am truly not sure if I would dress in a Tutu even if "Soke" demanded it. Just call me a Rebel. I was under the opinion that most have now went the way of Dan ranking and was curious as to why. Not that they did, or could if they wanted to. Just if anyone can give some support to the reason why. Just trying to learn, and to do that I have to get others opinions.
About being down on the Dan rank idea. I have come across so many Soke's, Hanshi's and Shihan's in the past six months that I decided to just do away with it. I'm not down on the idea. I am down on the sheer number of people who claim the ranks that are so preposterous. Yes, before you ask, I have visited a few of them. No, they do not have the skill or knowledge, IMHO to call themselves Master or anything close. I have a little training in both Okinawan arts and Japanese arts and a pretty good foundation to make a judgement. The more of this I see, the more depressed about commercial Martial Arts I get. I think you answered it best when you said "and is a handy fund raising tool in large organizations."
Of course, this is just my opinion.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/28/06 02:08 AM
Quote:
It is a developmental thing. Adults are more likely to learn something for knowledge. They have a longer attention span and are more able to accept training for training sake.
Children on the other hand do much better when given short term and long term goals, they are more apt to learn whatever skill set is involved with the next rank. They like the colors and show pride in whatever color they have earned.
Whatever you say. It seems to me though that almost all "adult" organizations of any significant size rely on some form or other of "ranking". Doesn't have to be a pejorative. I think its just a by product of organizational management.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/28/06 10:06 PM
Quote:
About being down on the Dan rank idea. I have come across so many Soke's, Hanshi's and Shihan's in the past six months that I decided to just do away with it. I'm not down on the idea.
Let's be clear on the difference between the genuine head of an established Japanese lineage, and the goofball McDojo teacher who's registered with Daisoke Shihan Grandmaster's anonymous.
Just which Soke's have you visited?
I just had a thought Paul. If you really want a more meaningful answer to your query, I'd suggest heading over to http://www.swordforum.com or http://www.e-budo.com There are a lot more JSA stylists at those forums. A lot of the higher ranked folks who are online are on those two forums. A more experienced pool from which to draw opinions.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/29/06 01:20 AM
I am a member of both, however I have found that you cant have a decent conversation there. It is about who knows more and if you question the knowledge you get slammed. Here, you can ask why, why not, or whatever, and usually get some decent answers. I wasn't really looking for the guys who have high rank in the sword arts or the opinions they have, to be honest. I was looking for others who just studied for themselves. I have already been called by a few of those "High Ranking" guys and asked what I was trying to start, which is exactly the attitude I was trying to shy away from.
Mostly I have visited the "and the goofball McDojo teacher who's registered with Daisoke Shihan Grandmaster's anonymous" ones. If they have a direct lineage from Japan why would I question the authenticity of what they do? When I asked the same question to a Soke he said that it was proper to give rank because it is felt that we Americans need it, to raise money, and to promote the art. Not in exactly that order or words, but I have asked. E-Budo is a shadow of what it once was, IMHO. At least lately thats what I have seen. I have been making knifes and swords for some time, so the swordforum I am pretty familiar with as well. But thanks for the idea. I have enough to help formulate my opinion.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 03:18 AM
Quote:
I have once had a challenge similar to that thrown at me by a gentleman who did not like my opinions in Martial Arts. I removed my Katana from it's bag and smiling said, whenever you wish, Sir.
I think I saw that movie. 
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 06:13 AM
Does that mean I get royalties? I figure in my life I have died a few times from stupidity, a few from health issues and a few more from just being in the wrong place. It is only by luck I am able to sit and make this post. So if I were to be lucky enough to die in battle, I would consider it an honor. After all, should we not be ready to die, even though we do not look for death?
When I was much younger I wrote: When you really believe in something, you must be willing to live for it. Harder still, you must be willing to die for it, and sometimes even harder, you must be willing to kill for it. If you are not willing to do all three, then you really don't believe in it. This is no joking matter to me, but something I take very serious.
Maybe it's just the difference in the training, or the priorities, or maybe my life has taught me this way. I guess if you wish to go through life playing at what you do, that is up to you, but know this, when it comes down to the truth, there is no play.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 01:05 PM
Quote:
It is only by luck I am able to sit and make this post. So if I were to be lucky enough to die in battle, I would consider it an honor. After all, should we not be ready to die, even though we do not look for death?
I'll be quite happy to die old thanks. Not looking to get hacked up or blown to bits.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 01:20 PM
I sure am happy that all the guys and gals that wear our flag, and are fighting in our name do not feel the same way. It's kind of funny, but it comes down to what you find important. If a man was threatening your Wife or Child, would you have a second thought about putting your life in danger? Probably not, so there are things that you find worth the risk. I remember reading about how a warrior shouldn't fear death, but should instead focus on the objective. It makes you a better combatant, or so I was told. My Father, who was career Air Force, said that there will always be people who stand, and people who just expect to be protected. I guess I am one of the ones who would stand.
A fitting post for the day after Memorial Day, IMHO.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 01:37 PM
What branch of the armed forces do you serve in?
Posted by: Halley
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 01:47 PM
Quote:
I sure am happy that all the guys and gals that wear our flag, and are fighting in our name do not feel the same way.
Bravery is not seeking to get yourself killed, but to be ready to die if necessary. Honor is not seeking to kill, but to be ready to kill if necessary.
Since both Charles and Paul are flagged as moderators, can either one of you please just lock off the topic and give up this line of backyard philosophy? I don't think I'm alone in finding the recent discussions to be more soporific than honorific.
Posted by: PaulHart
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 01:49 PM
I was Army, but that was a long time ago. However, that has little to do with the sword arts, and this thread. To the point, I feel that if we are training in the Martial Arts, to do it half way dishonors the ones who went the path before us. The Armed Forces, of this or any country, does not make you a warrior, this comes from the inside. When I practice Karate, I do it with the idea that these skills were the way the Okinawans preserved the lives of their family and themselves. To do it with a half heart would be an insult, IMHO.
I do not wish this to get into a name calling or challenge match, therefore, I feel enough has been said, and the thread has been drawn out long enough. This is my last post on this subject so please do not direct any statements at me, as you will not get an answer. Everyone lives according to their way, and mine is to know that I have done my best when I look at the path I have chosen.
Thank you for your opinion, and yes, I agree. Lock the thread. I do not have the ability to do this, but Mr. Mahon does. Kind of felt like I was playing ping pong for a while.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 03:01 PM
Quote:
I sure am happy that all the guys and gals that wear our flag, and are fighting in our name do not feel the same way.
I sure hope our guys and gals fighting in our name want to live to die old and happy as well. I don't want them to die for our country. I want them to kill for our country as needed and then come home in one piece. Only a fool wants to die for his country.
Accepting the certainty of death in an armed encounter with swords is a survival trait. Without being able to accept the liklihood of death, you will almost certainly freeze up if your opponent's seme is particuarly strong. That said, death is not a goal.
All of this is a silly conversation. None of us will ever need our skill with swords to save us in real life. It just won't happen. Truly believing that it is likely is self delusion and fantasy.
To Halley, I tend to moderate hands off. While some of the views in this thread strike me as goofy, that doesn't rise to the level of locking the thread.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword - 05/30/06 08:55 PM
"goofy" is putting it charitably.