Style that uses the tip area of the blade?

Posted by: ArtialMartsGuy

Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 12:26 AM

I forgot where I saw this, I think it was sword forum but I remember reading about a style that focused more on the tip to maybe a foot down the blade. I am just trying to find a style that uses the sword kind of like I do. My teacher taught me very little and then he had to leave so basically all I have been doing was practicing overhead strokes and some basics I learned. Thanks for any help.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 12:31 AM

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm not terribly well versed in many styles. I can tell you for sure that MJER, and probably MSR, are not the styles for you. We aim to cut with the monouchi, which is a spot about a third of the way down the blade from the kissaki.
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 09:49 AM

My favorite reference, Japanese Swordsmanship by Warner and Draeger, says this on page 104:
"monouchi: area of maximum force generated by blade in motion: approximately 15 centimeters from tip of point section toward base of blade."
This is the @ six inch section measured from the yokote, the line where the curved tip joins the flat of the blade. There is a fairly definitive sketch of the named portions of the blade.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 10:54 AM

Pretty much all of them.

I don't where people get the idea that JSA folks were some kind of robots that could only use their weapon in a single manner.

When the facts of the matter at that ryu were formed by practical people that were flexable in their approach.

They were not "locked" into only a single method.

If they could kill you with the "tip" end they would do it. If they could kill you with the "middle" part of the sword they would do it.

If they could crush your face with the hilt--they would do it.

And using the last 6 inchs etc of the blade makes sense.
You want to keep your oppt too far to cut you--but keep him close enough for you to cut HIM.

(of course there are other techniques for the "rest" of the blade)

As far as I am aware, this was pretty common to most JSA.

If your looking for a style that uses the blade "kinda like I do" then tell us what style you used to train in and we'll see if we can't find someone that teachs that style near you.
Posted by: Benjamin1986

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 11:28 AM

Saber fencing has heavy emphasis on perfect distance, so you have a lot of miss or hit by inches. Almost every hit is with the top half of the blade.
Posted by: Halley

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 01:19 PM

Quote:

Pretty much all of them.



Hrm, not to speak against experts such as charles, but I was led to understand that the monouchi was not a specific POINT along the blade, but a large SPAN of the blade. The monouchi comprises the first third of the blade, not just the point that is one third of the way down the blade. This is a 20~30cm area on a typical katana. The chuo is the second third of the blade. The tsuba-moto is the remaining third of the blade, that which is nearest the habaki and tsuba, which is usually less sharp.

(I had to read iaibear's quotation twice to see that it concurs with this, though 15cm/6in seems a bit short.)

So I agree, pretty much all of them have a strong focus on the monouchi area of the blade, with little wonder: it's got the highest velocity and is still strong and straight enough to provide a decent slicing motion. Anything else compromises reach, force and strength.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 01:33 PM

So far as I can tell, you didn't contradict me. I referred to it as a spot, not a singular point. It's an area around 1/3rd of the way down the blade.

And i'm hardly an expert. I've got a couple of decades to go before I'll even be reasonably competent.
Posted by: ArtialMartsGuy

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 04:56 PM

Thank you for the help but unfortunatley I can't help you much because the person who taught my class was a tae kwon do instructor. He just took some lessons and then made use do 100 over head strokes and basic cuts, after that he left. I should have known a lot of styles use the sword like that too but kinda got carried away on thinking of a specific style. Sorry I can not give much information since you can't self teach yourself. I have just been doing strokes and the basics I have learned for a long while and found like the only school that teaches kendo in Tucson so I could also ask for information on this style.
Posted by: pgsmith

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 05:08 PM

Quote:

I have just been doing strokes and the basics I have learned for a long while and found like the only school that teaches kendo in Tucson so I could also ask for information on this style.


If it were me, I would just forget all about whatever you learned back then, and just start from scratch. Empty cup and all that. There are some excellent sword arts available in Tucson, including two different koryu arts. I know of dojo that teach Araki ryu iaido, Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu, and Nakamura ryu battodo.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 06:23 PM

I agree with Paul. You are quite fortunate in Tuscon. A lot of good options there. The Araki Ryu and Sekiguchi Ryu stuff are both solid koryu dojos run by good people. The Nakamura Ryu stuff may be Gendai, but it's good stuff and a good dojo to boot by all accounts.

I'd suggest getting in to watch a few classes. See which one seems like a good match for you. Keep an open mind, they're all gonna look a little different from what you're used to and different from each other. Different doesn't mean wrong.

Good luck.
Posted by: ErikTracy

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 08:33 PM

Suio-ryu (which is koryu sogo bujutsu) emphasizes using only the kissaki for their iaijutsu/kenjutsu portion of their curriculum.

I've taken a couple of classes with Brian Stokes Sensei in the San Diego area, who I've known for years. He invited me to see what Suio-ryu was about and for their art, the kissaki is the major 'point' of emphasis (bad pun intended).

In fact they are not allowed to do tameshigiri - not because it is counter to any ideological rules of using a sword to cut with, but because cutting *thru* your opponent is a waste. With just the tip you can sever tendons, open arteries, and otherwise completely incapacitate your opponent - AND by just using the tip - you increase your reach by several inches as opposed to cutting with the monouchi.

Different strokes...all good!

Erik Tracy
Eishin-ryu iaijutsu
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 08:40 PM

Quote:

With just the tip you can sever tendons, open arteries, and otherwise completely incapacitate your opponent - AND by just using the tip - you increase your reach by several inches as opposed to cutting with the monouchi.

Different strokes...all good!




Hello Eric. Welcome to Fighting Arts Eric. Different strokes indeed.
Posted by: ArtialMartsGuy

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 09:30 PM

Are you sure about tucson, I search and keep finding phoenix as usual. Any information on these styles I find are about seminars and those are just in forums. Can someone help me to find a site or address because I haven't seen an official site besides kenshindojo.org. and that just gives me a search site like google.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/15/06 11:23 PM

Have you tried using the search option over at http://www.e-budo.com and http://www.swordforum.com ?
Posted by: iaibear

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/16/06 10:51 AM

Working with just the tip sounds very artistic, but not too many people are that talented. My sensei was very firm about "cutting through" with the monouchi. He did not mean a great powerful swing that ends a foot or more beyond the target. The cut should end just outside the target (O.K., body). That avoids the risk of getting caught, wedged or trapped, in the breastbone, for example.
Posted by: ErikTracy

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/16/06 01:17 PM

Quote:

Working with just the tip sounds very artistic, but not too many people are that talented. My sensei was very firm about "cutting through" with the monouchi. He did not mean a great powerful swing that ends a foot or more beyond the target. The cut should end just outside the target (O.K., body). That avoids the risk of getting caught, wedged or trapped, in the breastbone, for example.



I suppose 'artistic' is one way of looking at it - but that is how everyone within Suio-ryu applies their training towards. Suio-ryu is koryu and derives its history from use on the battlefield against armored opponents.

This same concept of looking for openings in the armor and applying well placed cuts/slices is common across many older kenjutsu styles as well. Imagine this: take a sharp shinken - lay it across your wrists - imagine just how *easy* it would be lay open the arteries, sever the tendons with hardly any pressure at all - rendering your hand totally useless and your body bleeding out.

Small tactical cuts make sense.

Me, I'm a big cutting Eishin-ryu practitioner! But I really like understanding how the other guys approach their iai/kenjutsu. It all makes sense, it's all good!

Erik
Posted by: pgsmith

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/16/06 01:33 PM

Quote:

Are you sure about tucson, I search and keep finding phoenix as usual


There are many koryu instructors that don't have a web presence. Bob Corella is the head instuctor in Phoenix. If you contact him, he can give you information about Araki ryu in Tucson ... http://www.kenshindojo.net/Home.html I can give you contact information for two dojo in Tucson that teach Sekiguchi ryu and Nakamura ryu battojutsu. Don't want to put their email out in a public forum, so I will PM you the details.
Posted by: pgsmith

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 05/16/06 01:36 PM

Quote:

Suio-ryu (which is koryu sogo bujutsu) emphasizes using only the kissaki for their iaijutsu/kenjutsu portion of their curriculum.


Hey Erik!
What I have seen and heard about TSKSR indicates that they do much the same thing, although they do have large and forceful cuts in their curriculum also.
Posted by: bobcorella

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 08/07/06 11:34 AM

Hi,
We do have an iaido dojo in Tucson. Its Araki Ryu and we have been in Tucson for several years. Please under Tucsoniaido.org or contact me at kenshindojo.net.
Bob Corella
bcorella@cox.net
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 08/07/06 07:02 PM

yagyu shinkage ryu is known for using the end of the blade for many cuts.
Posted by: ArtialMartsGuy

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 08/19/06 06:07 AM

I'm sorry to be late but I have found the sekiguchi ryu school I have heard about. It jusst opened in a newer building but they did teach at a location in Tucson very far from where I live. Thank you everyone for the help, now I can actually learn something in using the sword.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 08/19/06 08:44 AM

Congradulations on finding something real to train in. If it doesn't work out for any reason keep Corella-sensei in mind. Tuscon is very fortunate to have multiple training oppurtnities of such a high caliber.
Posted by: bobcorella

Re: Style that uses the tip area of the blade? - 08/22/06 10:16 PM

Glad to hear you found a dojo. We still do Araki ryu in Tucson. Email me if you have any questions. bcorella@cox.net
Bob Corella