In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword

Posted by: Neko456

In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/07/06 10:53 AM

In recent tournament I've seen some brillant swordmanship then they mess it up by throwing the Katana in the air and catching it. Except for excellent coordination (probably a dull/cast iron blade) showmanships and POINTS, what practicle use does this move have??

Now we throw nunchuka in testing the student is to catch and apply, practicle use is be prepare to use a weapon anytime or someone throws you a weapon to defend against a weapon. Is this case with the throwing the Katana in kata?

Trying to stay open minded.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/07/06 11:23 AM

Any tournament which featured someone throwing their sword up in the air is not a tournament featuring traditional Japanese Swordsmanship. We call that sword twirling. Typically they look very fast and precise, largely because they use extremely lightweight dull swords, usually made out of aluminum and weighing around a third of what a real sword weighs.

I'd love to see some of the XMA sword twirlers try their routines with a shinken From a safe distance, and behind a splash guard mind.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/07/06 11:48 AM

Thanks for straighting that out for me, theres level of showboating twirlers. I have to ask does certain Kata show swordmanship in your eyes? I notice your Iaido background can you see swordmanship within a Sword Kata rather then the combat single strike moves of Iaido?
Posted by: cxt

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/07/06 11:56 AM

Neko

Almost nothing you see in such tournament events is even close to "good" swordsmanship.

Its a performace pure and simple---well pure anyway--some of the routines are anything BUT simple.

But swordsmanship is ain't
Posted by: splice

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant s - 04/07/06 12:00 PM

I think you may not understand exactly what Iaido is (or can be). There are few kata that have only one cut. A great many have one or more follow-up cuts, and more than one opponent. What people do at these tournaments is not at all what goes on in a traditional sword arts dojo.

Actually, I think I will start calling people who do such competitions "sword cheerleaders". After all, what they do has as much to do with traditional japanese sword arts as stick twirling has to do with jodo or tanjojutsu.
Posted by: pgsmith

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/07/06 12:43 PM

Hi Neko,
Here is an example of tachi waza (standing kata) from Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu, a koryu (old school) art that is also known as Higo ryu iaido. It involves five cuts in different directions. This is what a traditional solo sword kata looks like. Notice that the gentleman in the clip is balanced and well grounded at all times, and there is no spinning, kicking, or wasted movement. ... http://bushinjuku.com/media/video/toroken.MPG
Posted by: Neko456

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/07/06 03:03 PM

Thanks simplicity is blessed and brilliant. I do see the difference.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/07/06 03:57 PM

I don't have anywhere to send you for MJER videos, but here's a link to some Muso Shinden Ryu videos. MSR is sort of a kissing cousin of ours as it were

http://iai.whaleeaters.org/
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/08/06 09:17 AM

i just got the splashgaurd part lol.
Posted by: awin

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/11/06 02:50 PM

I was at a tournament last year and a local iaido school was going to perform. The MC stuttered on the "iaido" part and ended up saying EYE-aya-EEE-doo. I almost wet my pants!! actually it was wild to see the iai folks in their traditional uniforms standing next to guys in bright red jumpers holdind staves covered in mylar, etc. I don't think the judges knew what to make of it.

thanks,
Allen
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/11/06 02:57 PM

I've often wondered what would happen if the traditional JSA world was to turn out en masse at these events. Oh I know we would lose, due to lack of neon colors, jumps, flips, sword tosses etc. But how long would we be ignored? If we kept showing up again and again at these events, eventually something would likely change. Quite possibly we'd just be asked to stop going.
Posted by: pgsmith

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/11/06 03:22 PM

Whenever I hear anything about swords and karate tournaments, I think of Ray Sensei's story about entering one when he just got back from Japan. That's a great story!
Posted by: cxt

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/12/06 11:53 AM

PG Smith

Have not heard the story.

Is is one you can post here?????
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/12/06 12:13 PM

Long story short, it happened more or less like this. Ray-sensei had recently returned from his 10 years training at the Yamashita dojo in Chiba. While in Japan he competed in the ZNIR/Seitokai Taikai circuit where he was a nationaly ranked competitor.

Upon returning he heard of and decided to enter a tournament here. He had been completely out of touch with the American martial arts scene for a decade. So he enters this weapons tournament and there are a handful of other "weapon experts". The judges insisted on inspecting all of the weapons used in the tournament. Ray-sensei was more than a little disturbed when they started examining the shinken he had brought back from Japan. Fortunately nobody cut their thumbs off looking at it. Anyway, the actual competition went about as well as you might expect. Kurotty weapons tournaments were no better then than they are now. Ray-sensei lost and lost badly. Afterwards one of the judges told him that he was really happy to have gotten a chance to see the real deal, but they just didn't know how to compare what he had done to what the other tourny circuit regulars were doing.
Posted by: cxt

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/12/06 01:03 PM

Charles

I have to tell you that is an very depressing story.

Not unexpexcted--sadly enough, but depressing all the same.

Reminds me of comments made at a "karate" tournament, guy just back from Japan, was watching the "traditional" divison--where its become commonplace to drop so low into shiko-dachi that your butt is actually lower than your knees.

You know, "cause tradional karate uses low stances."

So the lower you go the "more" tradional you must be

Most of them accompanied their kata with eye-popping, red-faced screaming "kiai."

He actually asked the people judgeing:

"Ah, where is the karate tournament being held?"

They did not find it funny.

Nor did he even place.

But the camra crew filming the event ran a of tape on his kata, asked him alot of questions about karate.

That should have told the guys running the event something.
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/12/06 01:05 PM

This event Ray-sensei went to was sometime in the early '90s. Not sure exactly when, I just know he was pretty fresh off the boat.
Posted by: cxt

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/12/06 03:49 PM


I am esp taken aback by the whole "we would not even know how to judge it" (my paraphrase) remark.

Things have gotten that out of wack in terms of weapons kata that the judges could not even judge the traditional stuff?

Sad.
Posted by: pgsmith

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/12/06 06:18 PM

Quote:

I am esp taken aback by the whole "we would not even know how to judge it" (my paraphrase) remark.



Not really. You have to remember that these are karate tournaments. American karate no less. Very, very few of those attending a karate tournament will have ever actually seen iaido, much less know how to judge it.

Karate sword kata are a lot like aikiken (in thought, not action!) in that they are doing an empty hand art with a sword-like object. Neither bears much resemblance to actual japanese sword arts.
Posted by: cxt

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant sword - 04/12/06 07:18 PM

pg smith

No, what I am saying is that as I read the story, these guys are so far removed from proper balance, power, speed, effective technique etc as compared to the "flash" of tournament "kata" that they can no longer tell whats better or not.

Not saying that they should be able to nuance differences between various ryu.

I mean that after years of the backflipping, baton-spinning, utterly useless weapon work--often to the pounding beat of the Conan The Barbarian soundtrack.

That stuff like that has BECOME the "norm."

That if your NOT doing backflips etc then your somehow not doing it "right."

Not honest ignorance as much as willful self-delusion.

Maybe I'm reading far to much into it---or bringing to much person baggage into it.
Posted by: splice

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant s - 04/13/06 02:11 PM

Quote:


Not saying that they should be able to nuance differences between various ryu.

I mean that after years of the backflipping, baton-spinning, utterly useless weapon work--often to the pounding beat of the Conan The Barbarian soundtrack.

That stuff like that has BECOME the "norm."

That if your NOT doing backflips etc then your somehow not doing it "right."

Not honest ignorance as much as willful self-delusion.

Maybe I'm reading far to much into it---or bringing to much person baggage into it.




I think you're bringing too much personal baggage into this. These people are doing karate, not Japanese Sword Arts. I couldn't care less what karate judges think karateka should do with a sword. I care about what iaidoka sensei think their iaidoka students should do with a sword.

As far as the karateka deluding themselves about what they're doing, well, that's not my problem either. It doesn't take much common sense to realize twirls and flips with a long pointy metal object is not the best way to defend yourself with it. I don't think any of these contestants believe that what they're doing is anything more than twirling swords and looking spiffy.

I think we can all agree that what they do is impressive on an athletic level, and silly from a swordsmanship point of view.
Posted by: cxt

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant s - 04/13/06 02:41 PM


I still find it sad comment on the state of martial arts in general.
Posted by: V34

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant s - 04/13/06 02:49 PM

Here are some Muso jikidan eishin ryu video links.

http://www.artofjapaneseswordsmanship.com/iaido/1.mpg

http://www.artofjapaneseswordsmanship.com/video_clips.php
Posted by: pgsmith

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant s - 04/13/06 02:59 PM

Quote:

I still find it sad comment on the state of martial arts in general.



All depends upon the outlook Chris. The vast majority of martial arts, in the U.S. at least, are ineffective as "fighting arts". That doesn't make them useless though. They provide structure and exercise for countless kids that need it in their life. They provide exercise, increased awareness, and confidence to countless adults that need it in their lives. The vast majority of those that currently enjoy martial arts in the U.S. will never have even a remote opportunity to use their "skills". Therefore, who does it hurt? Granted that the traditional martial arts are a far different creature than the corner McDojo, there are not many people that are willing to put forth the effort required by the traditional martial arts. That will be reserved for those that care about the traditions, and enough will join to ensure that these traditions are carried on properly.

All the rest either do hard core UFC type arts of some kind, or have fun at their kurotty tournaments with their spangled dogi and giant trophies.

At least they're better than the rest that sit at home and watch reality shows on TV!
Posted by: cxt

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant s - 04/13/06 03:11 PM


pgsmith

Good points!
Posted by: Charles Mahan

Re: In recent tournament I've seen some brillant s - 04/13/06 03:28 PM

Quote:

Here are some Muso jikidan eishin ryu video links.

http://www.artofjapaneseswordsmanship.com/iaido/1.mpg

http://www.artofjapaneseswordsmanship.com/video_clips.php




That's Suino-sensei. He varies on some of the details from what we do, but that's not terribly unlike what's being done down here. I had forgotten about his website.