Posted by: shihan_chris
DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/03/06 01:58 AM
Does anyone here practice drawing a katana underhanded?
DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/03/06 01:07 PM
Define underhanded? With a reverse grip ala Zatoichi?
Posted by: Armed_Man_Piker
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/04/06 11:19 PM
Perhaps he means drawing "ground to sky", as one would with a tachi?
Posted by: shihan_chris
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/05/06 02:48 AM
What I meant was drawing the sword with your palm facing upward.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/05/06 10:04 AM
So you are referring to grasping the sword in such a way that the heel of your palm is close to the tsuba, rather than in the usual way where your thumb and index finger are near the tsuba.
I know that some, not many, koryu have very specific scenarios where this is done. Mugai Ryu has a waza that does that for a very particular situation. A couple other ryuha have very specific examples where it is done. It's never a preferred way to do business. It's a fairly lousy way to hold a sword. Cuts down on range, power and control.
There are no styles which do this all the time. This topic has been done to death on some of the other forums. Do some searching over at http://www.swordforum.com and http://www.e-budo.com for "reverse draw" or maybe "zatoichi draw".
I know that some, not many, koryu have very specific scenarios where this is done. Mugai Ryu has a waza that does that for a very particular situation. A couple other ryuha have very specific examples where it is done. It's never a preferred way to do business. It's a fairly lousy way to hold a sword. Cuts down on range, power and control.
There are no styles which do this all the time. This topic has been done to death on some of the other forums. Do some searching over at http://www.swordforum.com and http://www.e-budo.com for "reverse draw" or maybe "zatoichi draw".
Posted by: cxt
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/05/06 10:27 AM
Shihan
I have to agree with Charles.
There are some very specfic situations that some ryu have specific waza to deal with.
But if you try and compare it to a "normal" draw you will find that its not all that effecient ie its slow, and the path the blade must take-
(given the shape of the blade, how the sword is worn, the weight of the blade, how the arm must move given the grip etc)
--well lets just say that I would not wish to try it.
I have to agree with Charles.
There are some very specfic situations that some ryu have specific waza to deal with.
But if you try and compare it to a "normal" draw you will find that its not all that effecient ie its slow, and the path the blade must take-
(given the shape of the blade, how the sword is worn, the weight of the blade, how the arm must move given the grip etc)
--well lets just say that I would not wish to try it.
Posted by: shihan_chris
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 12:21 AM
I agree that there are certain situations for the technique, but it's not slow. It's actually quick and effective. (Particularly if your opponent has not yet drawn his sword or is in the process of drawing his sword) It's also a great technique in close quarters. (a narrow hallway for instance)
Example of underhand draw............. stepping forward into a front stance while simultaneously drawing the sword and cutting the throat at an upward angle, then punching down with the hilt of the sword while turining to the left in a front stance, then pulling the sword out while simultaneously stepping back into a cross-leg stance and then finally sheathing the sword while stepping up.
Example of underhand draw............. stepping forward into a front stance while simultaneously drawing the sword and cutting the throat at an upward angle, then punching down with the hilt of the sword while turining to the left in a front stance, then pulling the sword out while simultaneously stepping back into a cross-leg stance and then finally sheathing the sword while stepping up.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 01:05 AM
Make that up yourself?
I take it that you are not wearing the katana in the move you described?
I take it that you are not wearing the katana in the move you described?
Posted by: pgsmith
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 10:08 AM
Quote:
Make that up yourself?
If he didn't, then he learned it from another karateka. Front stance and cross-leg stance are karate terms. I've never encountered anyone using that sort of terminology (or movement) outside of karate circles. Speaking of, do you study karate with Ray sensei also Charles? I understand he is highly ranked in Uechi ryu right?
Chris,
There are many different schools of traditional Japanese sword arts available in the U.S. today. You should take advantage of this fact and seek out legitimate instruction. There's really no way that you can teach yourself how to properly use a Japanese sword. There's really no reason to try either.
Just my thoughts on it.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 10:52 AM
Quote:Quote:
Make that up yourself?
Speaking of, do you study karate with Ray sensei also Charles? I understand he is highly ranked in Uechi ryu right?
Sensei is a godan in Uechi Ryu and trains under Kiyohide Shinjo, which I gather qualifies him as fairly highly ranked yes. I do not train in karate and know fairly little about it. MJER takes up all my available time. Starting something else would definitely take away from my MJER training. And progress seems slow enough as it is
Posted by: cxt
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 11:10 AM
Shihan
No, what I mean is that is slowER than a "normal" draw.
Is it going to be slower each and every time for each and every person?
No.
But overall, IN GENERAL, its "slowER" to get the blade out and into play.
And you are left with a much "weaker" blade positon in any case.
Don't belive me?
Try it.
Get a guy of your skill level, get WAAAYYY apart so there is no danger of hitting each other----then at a signal, draw.
Then do it 100 times, willing to bet the "normal" method guy gets his weapon out and into play faster.
(its just not as mechanically efficent as the "normal" methods, and by and large, effiecent movement is FASTER movement)
Might be just by a little bit----but with katana, that little bit means life or death.
Its a question of stacking the deck as much in your favor as you can.
And the percentages are REALLY low with the draw you describe.
Low enough that I would really not want to bet my life on them.
Which is also why koryu folks only have a few such kata/waza--for very specific situations.
It was seen as being a low percentage move from the get-go, and only useful in rare, specific encounters/situations.
So they did not spend much time on it.
Oh, and BTW there is nothing stopping you from using a more or less "normal" draw in the situation you describe.
No matter which method you use to draw it the sword stays on the the same plane as the scabbard--until it clear the scabbard it HAS to.
No, what I mean is that is slowER than a "normal" draw.
Is it going to be slower each and every time for each and every person?
No.
But overall, IN GENERAL, its "slowER" to get the blade out and into play.
And you are left with a much "weaker" blade positon in any case.
Don't belive me?
Try it.
Get a guy of your skill level, get WAAAYYY apart so there is no danger of hitting each other----then at a signal, draw.
Then do it 100 times, willing to bet the "normal" method guy gets his weapon out and into play faster.
(its just not as mechanically efficent as the "normal" methods, and by and large, effiecent movement is FASTER movement)
Might be just by a little bit----but with katana, that little bit means life or death.
Its a question of stacking the deck as much in your favor as you can.
And the percentages are REALLY low with the draw you describe.
Low enough that I would really not want to bet my life on them.
Which is also why koryu folks only have a few such kata/waza--for very specific situations.
It was seen as being a low percentage move from the get-go, and only useful in rare, specific encounters/situations.
So they did not spend much time on it.
Oh, and BTW there is nothing stopping you from using a more or less "normal" draw in the situation you describe.
No matter which method you use to draw it the sword stays on the the same plane as the scabbard--until it clear the scabbard it HAS to.
Posted by: shihan_chris
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 06:03 PM
Quote:Quote:
Make that up yourself?
Chris,
There are many different schools of traditional Japanese sword arts available in the U.S. today. You should take advantage of this fact and seek out legitimate instruction. There's really no way that you can teach yourself how to properly use a Japanese sword. There's really no reason to try either.
Just my thoughts on it.
I never said that I was making up moves nor did I say that I wasn't training under legitimate instruction.
Posted by: shihan_chris
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 06:09 PM
Quote:
Make that up yourself?
I take it that you are not wearing the katana in the move you described?
No, I did not make up the technique. It's actually very old. And yes I am wearing the katana in the technique I described.
Posted by: pgsmith
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/06/06 06:18 PM
Quote:
No, I did not make up the technique. It's actually very old.
I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm going to believe that. I've seen demonstrations of many different koryu over the years. The only things that I can picture being like what you described are karate tournament weapons kata. Nothing like any koryu I'm at all familiar with.
Of course, I've been known to be wrong in the past. Perhaps you can convince me.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/07/06 12:12 AM
Quote:Quote:
Make that up yourself?
I take it that you are not wearing the katana in the move you described?
No, I did not make up the technique. It's actually very old. And yes I am wearing the katana in the technique I described.
You're wearing it edge up thrust through an obi? And you grab it with your right hand with the reverse grip you described earlier. Then you draw the sword and cut upwards with one smooth motion? Is that the jist of it? There's something about this that I'm trying to work out in my mind. What's your left hand doing during the draw and are you wearing it edge up?
You say this move is old, and that you didn't make it up? What style is it from? Who taught it to you?
Posted by: splice
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/07/06 09:14 AM
I can't imagine a reason for a zatoichi-type draw if you want to cut across your opponent's throat. A straightforward draw seems to me to be faster and stronger. Not to mention that if you are cutting him across the throat, there isn't much point in shoving your blade down his body (I imagine that's what you mean by "punching down with the hilt of the sword" and "pulling the sword out"). Just have the pointy bit of the blade still towards him, and if the cut throat doesn't do it, just cut him again.
This seems like a strange waza to me, but then I don't know all about all the arts out there. What style did you say this was?
This seems like a strange waza to me, but then I don't know all about all the arts out there. What style did you say this was?
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/07/06 04:08 PM
Any chance you can post a link to a video of this kata?
Posted by: awin
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/11/06 02:59 PM
I was wondering if you would turn the saya over so that the has is down before the draw? That can be an effect age kesa position and at the end of the cut retaining the gyaku right hand position through jodan can give a very strong kiri orishi or kesa giri - the problem is that it is not a "normal" sort of postition, something trained with 95% of the time, so that it can be difficult to get a good feel for it.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/11/06 03:39 PM
The question isn't really "But can't you...?" It is "But did they?". The answer is no except in very limited circumstances. Where techniques are concerned there is very little that hasn't been tried at some point or another. This particular idea was apparently discarded by the vast majority of surviving ryuha.
Awin,
What you suggest is in fact the only way that draw can work. If you try that draw without first rotating the saya, then you draw and whack your opponent with the mune. The primary problem is two fold. If you maintain a good angle between your right wrist and the sword, so that you have a strong enough grip to actually cut someone without losing your blade, then your effective range will be very short during the cut. If you let your wrist bend enough to get a little distance on the cut, then your grip will be so weak that you won't cut, or you might actually lose your grip on the sword when the first real resistance is offered by your target. Less than ideal. Compare that to a standard draw, which is every bit as fast, but can handle both short distances and long distances with a good solid grip that works fine, and I think it's pretty obvious why this isn't done generally speaking.
Awin,
What you suggest is in fact the only way that draw can work. If you try that draw without first rotating the saya, then you draw and whack your opponent with the mune. The primary problem is two fold. If you maintain a good angle between your right wrist and the sword, so that you have a strong enough grip to actually cut someone without losing your blade, then your effective range will be very short during the cut. If you let your wrist bend enough to get a little distance on the cut, then your grip will be so weak that you won't cut, or you might actually lose your grip on the sword when the first real resistance is offered by your target. Less than ideal. Compare that to a standard draw, which is every bit as fast, but can handle both short distances and long distances with a good solid grip that works fine, and I think it's pretty obvious why this isn't done generally speaking.
Posted by: the_terminator
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/11/06 08:56 PM
Well I don't (I don't really practice with any weapon). But I believe that it would not be as affective as your normal draw (slower and more difficult while a normal draw is fast and easy). Also it would take more training to have it so that it is a natural movement (which would be needed for it to be affective). So I think that it would be only usable for one of those things "watch what I can do".
Posted by: shihan_chris
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/13/06 04:42 PM
When you see the underhand draw demonstrated on a person, it's easier to understand. It's all about timing.
And for the underhand draw, it doesn't matter if the sword is still partially in the saya when you do the tecnique. In fact, it makes the technique work better.
And for the underhand draw, it doesn't matter if the sword is still partially in the saya when you do the tecnique. In fact, it makes the technique work better.
Posted by: splice
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/13/06 05:06 PM
I notice you have not told us anything about what style this technique is taken from. Could you elaborate on that? Mr. Mahan is a moderator on this board and also seems to be curious about this.
Also, something I meant to mention: calling yourself sensei or shihan is considered bad form. It's something others call you, not a term you use for yourself.
Also, something I meant to mention: calling yourself sensei or shihan is considered bad form. It's something others call you, not a term you use for yourself.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/13/06 11:08 PM
Quote:
And for the underhand draw, it doesn't matter if the sword is still partially in the saya when you do the tecnique. In fact, it makes the technique work better.
Well it wouldn't be much of a draw if the sword was not at least partially in the saya. Splice is right. I would still very much like to hear where this comes from.
The problems I enumerated with this kind of draw had nothing to do with timing and everything to do with maai, tenouchi, and power. Can I get you to address those issues? A video would be nice if you know of one.
I agree with Splice. I suspect you hold a Shihan title in some style other than a JSA. No problem there, but ireally is fairly bad form to use it to refer to yourself, and would more appropriately be written name-shihan at any rate.
Posted by: Wilf
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/17/06 12:43 PM
Hello,
I do personally like the reverse draws very much
("normal" grip with cutting edge upwards / downwards,
reverse grip with cutting edge upwards / downwards).
I don`t think it`s that much inferior to normal draws but just a bit different.
Nevertheless (Mr. Mahan wrote about instability and short range on the 2. page)
it`s important to really know when to apply such a draw and when better not to.
Another thing is that I do practice the reverse draw more often with
a "shinobi-gatana" (looks like the standard katana but has a shorter blade).
With such a sword you can do such technique very fast, while with a "normal" one,
you have to develop veeery good timing and distance etc. or at least some magical power.
In Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (Sugino-ha), my second style,
I saw the "reverse grip, cutting edge upwards draw" often as a finishing move,
meaning while doing noto, the enemy is stabbed "to the ground"
if he should move suddenly or try to stand up once again.
I do think that this move is relatively seldom used in most Koryu, also.
Greetings from Berlin, Germany
Wilf
Link: Kubushi-Tengu Dojo (= Bujinkan Shinden Dojo Berlin)
I do personally like the reverse draws very much
("normal" grip with cutting edge upwards / downwards,
reverse grip with cutting edge upwards / downwards).
I don`t think it`s that much inferior to normal draws but just a bit different.
Nevertheless (Mr. Mahan wrote about instability and short range on the 2. page)
it`s important to really know when to apply such a draw and when better not to.
Another thing is that I do practice the reverse draw more often with
a "shinobi-gatana" (looks like the standard katana but has a shorter blade).
With such a sword you can do such technique very fast, while with a "normal" one,
you have to develop veeery good timing and distance etc. or at least some magical power.
In Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (Sugino-ha), my second style,
I saw the "reverse grip, cutting edge upwards draw" often as a finishing move,
meaning while doing noto, the enemy is stabbed "to the ground"
if he should move suddenly or try to stand up once again.
I do think that this move is relatively seldom used in most Koryu, also.
Greetings from Berlin, Germany
Wilf
Link: Kubushi-Tengu Dojo (= Bujinkan Shinden Dojo Berlin)
Posted by: V34
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/18/06 09:56 AM
In MJER kata #5 has an underhand draw. If thats what your
talking about.
talking about.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/18/06 10:31 AM
It does? I assume you mean Seiza no Bu Yaegaki?
Posted by: splice
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/18/06 12:14 PM
Quote:
It does? I assume you mean Seiza no Bu Yaegaki?
Actually, I can't think of one MJER (or ZKR) waza that would have such a draw (how do you call that anyway? gyaku nukitsuke? gyaku tenouchi?). Of course, the only reason I'm saying that is so that Charles can come back and remind me of a Tachi waza or iwaza that I conveniently forgot
.I think V34 was actually referring to ZKR #5, Kesa Giri. He probably mistook a gyaku kesa giri for what we are talking about, which would be a reverse grip, not a rising cut.
I remember an uke nagashi kaewaza that has something similar, or is that just MSR anyway? Either way, strange draw.
You know, I've noticed some sort of correlation between people who assure everyone the style they practice is totally authentic but won't say what style it is when asked, and people who practice styles that aren't quite traditional. There also seems to be a correlation with people who call themselves shihan or other such honorifics... Anyway, maybe I'm just imagining things
.
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/18/06 12:31 PM
Well we definitely have Gyaku kesagiri in MJER. The Seitokai line practice Batto Ho Oku Iai waza. The 1st and 3rd waza in that set both have a rising kesa giri cut from nukitsuke, but they are both using the normal grip. There is an imlied technique in the way we do noto which allows for a sort of reverse grip draw. At the end of noto our right hand traverses the tsuka and takes hold of the tsukagashira in such a way that a big step back with the left leg, some hip twist, and a lot of saya biki allow the right hand to draw the sword and stab downards. It's not a part of any waza, but it's the explanation for why we slide the right hand up to the end of the tsuka.
Posted by: splice
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/18/06 01:28 PM
Quote:
At the end of noto our right hand traverses the tsuka and takes hold of the tsukagashira in such a way that a big step back with the left leg, some hip twist, and a lot of saya biki allow the right hand to draw the sword and stab downards. It's not a part of any waza, but it's the explanation for why we slide the right hand up to the end of the tsuka.
I thought I remembered clearly, but I had clearly forgotten
. This type of thrust was done during Tsuke Komi (not Uke Nagashi, as I had thought/said earlier) in Muso Shinden Ryu. I don't know if it's kaewaza or not. However, this doesn't really match the topic, as that thrust is done before sheathing the sword, and it's not a draw to any degree (just a poke). It's a different thing entirely, although it does use a reverse grip.You know, I'm thinking, sticking a sword in someone is pretty basic. A sword is a simple tool. Why all these complicated and fancy draws? After all, do you know anyone who has played with reverse grips, twirls, etc with a hammer?
Posted by: Charles Mahan
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/18/06 02:02 PM
Ahh. I see. That thrust is not part of the MJER Tsukekomi waza, but it is certainly implied should the need arise.
Posted by: Wilf
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/19/06 02:27 AM
Hello,
Charles Mahan wrote:
I have to correct myself or let me better say add some information:
Therefore the first move before we go to stab the opponent is a real draw.
Splice wrote:
Maybe that way the sori can be used for different techniques than the "normal" ones ?...
I don`t know the exact answer but to me, practice has shown their value...
...nevertheless as I said already before, it always depends on the situation.
I do agree with the opinion, that fancy moves just for looking cool are nonsens.
After the first step, one should always be still alive to do the second, of course.
Greetings from Berlin, Germany
Wilf
..........Kubushi-Tengu Dojo..........
( = Bujinkan Shinden Dojo Berlin )
Charles Mahan wrote:
Quote:Well I think, it`s somehow quite similar to what I wrote about TSKSR.
At the end of noto...allow the right hand to draw the sword
and stab downards. It's not a part of any waza...
I have to correct myself or let me better say add some information:
Quote:...Before we do that stabbing, the blade is nearly sheathed over it`s length.
I saw the "reverse grip, cutting edge upwards draw" often as a finishing move,
meaning while doing noto, the enemy is stabbed "to the ground"...
Therefore the first move before we go to stab the opponent is a real draw.
Splice wrote:
Quote:Possibly it`s (among other reasons) the idea of not doing exactly what one`s expected to ?
...A sword is a simple tool. Why all these complicated and fancy draws?...
Maybe that way the sori can be used for different techniques than the "normal" ones ?...
I don`t know the exact answer but to me, practice has shown their value...
...nevertheless as I said already before, it always depends on the situation.
I do agree with the opinion, that fancy moves just for looking cool are nonsens.
After the first step, one should always be still alive to do the second, of course.
Greetings from Berlin, Germany
Wilf
..........Kubushi-Tengu Dojo..........
( = Bujinkan Shinden Dojo Berlin )
Posted by: iaibear
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/19/06 12:10 PM
Quote:
There is an implied technique in the way we do noto which allows for a sort of reverse grip draw. At the end of noto our right hand traverses the tsuka and takes hold of the tsukagashira in such a way that a big step back with the left leg, some hip twist, and a lot of saya biki allow the right hand to draw the sword and stab downards. It's not a part of any waza, but it's the explanation for why we slide the right hand up to the end of the tsuka.
Thank you for clearing up a move that has puzzled me since the first time I saw it in Guelph.
In MSR we practice a 12 kata ryuha called Shindo Munen Ryu.
Utsusemi (yohonmei) has a reverse draw, used to create space, which I remember as follows:
You are walking forward and sense enemies coming from behind and in front of you.
1. Step fwd with right foot and draw forward with a reverse grip, edge up. (A butt strike?)
2. Step fwd with left foot but thrust backward along your left side, edge up, still with reverse grip.
3. Step fwd with right foot. Swing blade down and forward turning blade so edge is still up. Two handed thrust forward, right grip still reversed, left grip is normal.
4. Step back with right foot. Half pivot CW to rear. Two handed thrust to rear along your right side, right grip still reversed, left grip is normal.
5. Pivot CCW to front. Switch right grip to normal. Step fwd w/ right. Edge down. Kirioroshi.
6. Pivot CCW to rear. Step w/ right. Kirioroshi.
Posted by: V34
Re: DRAWING A KATANA UNDERHANDED - 04/20/06 08:48 AM
Quote:Quote:
It does? I assume you mean Seiza no Bu Yaegaki?
I think V34 was actually referring to ZKR #5, Kesa Giri. He probably mistook a gyaku kesa giri for what we are talking about, which would be a reverse grip, not a rising cut.
YA, MY BAD! I got consfused to what he was talking about and
what he meant. I was talking about kesagiri.