Boffering, safe sword fighting.

I didn't say anything at all about the SCA, and I didn't say that Boffer fighting was meaningless. In fact, I said it looked like a lot of fun. All I said is that it is not Swordsmanship on any level. It does not involve swords, or objects that look like, are weighted like, or behave anything like swords. And it does not train you how to use the real thing. It's boffering. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. It's just not swordsmanship.

I think that part of the problem is that we are operating from different definitions of swordsmanship. I see boffer fighting as an opportunity to practice swordfighting in a safe environment with minimal chance of injury. I prefer the rattan weapons because it's a more accurate simulation of real swords, however I think you can still get a lot out of boffer if done correctly. It's especially good for newbies, younger fighters, and anyone else that's worried about getting injured.
And as to the similarity to real swords, I always try to make my boffer or rattan weapons as similar to real swords as I can in terms of weight and size, but I acknowledge that there is a difference. The only thing that will completely function like a real sword is a real sword, and we're not going to swing those at each other several days of the week, are we?

When I posted this I didn't mean to tell you guys that boffering is able to replace traditional sword arts, it's just a way for people to do sword fighting safely and have a bunch of fun doing it. Sure the swords may not look realistic but I don't care, it's still a hell of a lot of fun.
-Karl

Karl

Fun is fun, and I an glad that you have found something you enjoy.

But its not much good for learning sword arts.

Not bagging on you or your practice--like I said, glad you found something that you enjoy.

Its just not a good way to learn sword skills.

for all of you who say it's no way to learn a sword art, it isn't. I never said to quit your current practice and do this, in fact I don't even use boffering to train in a sword art. The only thing I use boffer swords for is to get a couple of friends over in my basement and beat each other up. In no way does it represent realistic combat, there is just not enough similarities between a boffer and a real sword. Im just saying it's alot of fun and that it's an easy thing to do if you wanted to try.
-Karl

Karl,

Great you and your friends have found something fun to do and don't pay any attention to those here who see it differently. You came here in good cheer to share, and have been treated poorly. I don't know why people do that.

But, if your life is long, there will be many times that you'll see people belittle others for no reason. This could be a good lesson to you about not doing so yourself.

You have it wrong Joss.

We are not here to rain on his parade and tell him to do stop doing something he enjoys. What we are saying is that what he is doing is not swordfighting. We are trying to help lead him on a path to learn historical technique and put his passion to use. Boffer fighting is basically a harmless way to beat eachother up. There is no "martial art" involved and thats one reason it puts such a bad taste in peoples mouths and is made fun of in some circles. We were trying to show him that there are plenty of avenues to take if he wants to further his interest in western martial arts.

Mike

*Grabs mercier, Joss, Charles, Karl, and Vlad

Sways back and forth, singing "Kum-ba-yah!!"

Hits them all with a boffer and runs off.*

I was quoting Vlad I think. I have nothing against boffer for the sake of boffer. Heck, I think I might still have a half dozen or so boffers sitting round somewhere. It's fun!

Well if you can afford good armor and a little control there's just no reason not to use metal blunts. The simple fact is that no matter how well balanced a simulator is it just isn't going to represent live steel correctly. The only way to really practice authentically is to get a metal sword in your hands.

I'm not sure if those advocating live steel have considered the limited means of teens. Two years ago when I was 14 there was know whay I could get even a portion of the things required to do live steel. Much less convince my friends to do so. And what would my perants think about this "waste" of money?

It hasn't changed much now I'm 16.

Karl, I'm actually gearing up to launch a boffering group with some friends. And guys, the cheapness and safety of it has drawn them not to mention the fun we'll have but also it means more people for us to bash. I always wanted a big battle.

Does anyone care to make a case for whether or not Boffer topics belong in the sword arts forum? I am inclined to move them to another forum.

Charles

Since we don't have a paintball forum, and in my view "boffering" is in the same catagory of "fun but useless for any real skill bldg" I don't know where we should put it.

I don't think it belongs in the sword section----but maybe it will help people to read the various opinions.

I honestly don't know.

I agree the thread should be moved out of the sword arts forum. Boffering and boffers is like the anime reverse blade sword. Both having nothing to do with sword arts and swordsmanship.

I have to disagree. As the topic stated he mentioned "safe sword fighting".
Now there isnt any historical value to much boffer fighting, but it was meant to recreate it, just not in an authentic way. When it was created some 40 years ago or so, its all they had. There were no interpretive translations of manuals like Fiore, Talhoffer, or I.33.

VerneyEsq -as a so called steel "advocate" I certainly can understand the limited means. I also never suggest anyone picks up a steel sword and attempts to fight with it without having some sort of training, either western or eastern martial arts.
Although sometimes hard to find, there are plenty of Western schools available across the country now. If someone is truely interested in medieval history and fighting, I would suggest finding one of those instead of creating bad habits blindly swinging a sword simulator around. It may look easy in the movies, but that is all show and the sword styles of Europe are no less of a martial art than the Asian styles therefore require a lot of time, patience, and training.

Mike

I kinda agree with Mercier. Boffering is not really akin to Sakabato, Santo Ryu, and other assorted goofiness. But I am still unconvinced it has any business in the Sword Arts forum, as it is clearly not a sword art, nor is it tied to any sword art western or eastern. It strikes me as being in a seperate class of activities. Maybe the same class that the Forza/kenbo stuff falls in. Which doesn't belong here either really.

Hey. im new here, just registered, just soi could post in this forum. While i agree most boffering isnt realistic enough t be considered sword art or sword fighting, my group gets its weapons from an online place, called Calimacil. Almost every one of their weapons are made to look, and feel like a real sword. They are used by a Martial Arts Dojo for real practice with their training. We use these weapons, and train in European Fighting styles, as well as others. The weapons are weighted like a real sword, look like it, even down to the sewn up leather handle. The only problem i have with them is that the crossgaurd is a bit flimsy. They are strong, ive seen someone that weighs round 200 lbs, put this across 2 bars and stand on it.

Here is the site for Calimacil

http://www.latex-weaponry.com/calimacil.html

Then the ones that i personally own is at this site.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cf...albumId=2245211

Cole, What dojo uses these?

Cole

See the problem here is one of basic physics and materials science.

Something that, as you say, "weighted just like a real sword" is going to be plenty dangerous---its a question of density--something that the same and is the same size/mass is likely not something your going to want to get hit with.

A pound of feathers and a pound of iron "weigh" the same...but their density is vastly different...to get something the same size/mass and weight as metal its going to have to be nearly as dense....which means that its going to be kinda dangerous.

There are some materials out there with some really odd properties...but nobody I know is making them in large enough quantiies to make much of them...certainly not boffers.

That may of course not be anything new to you......just mentioning it.

This is the video test that they show, unfortunatly its in french, i think, but you can get the basics of it from the video.

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=6uAFLC7KjiY

This is the Dojo's Website, its the Austin Bujinkan Tanemaki Dojo

http://knifeonthewater.com/table_of_contents.htm

Here is the part of the Dojo's site that talks about the weapons.

http://www.knifeonthewater.com/Knighthawk.htm

And yes cxt i understand about density, im actually a major in physics and thats something we deal with alot in my classes, and these weapons are weighted the same as a real sword, as i have already said, and when you get the swords they actually have a manual with them that say that they can very easily hurt someone, to not hit people in the face, to not do full force blows, etc, but we mostly do it anyway. We have had several broken bones, i myself broke 2 fingers in my hand, got my wrist dislocated, got a concussion, so i can attest that they hurt for real. And i will also admit, that there is no alternative to the real thing, but these weapons are the closest as i have found to it and we have been able to train just fine with them. We actually got police called on us several times cause people thought we were actually using swords. After a few hours of long talks with the police, we ended up being able to continue training.

The swords are made with a fiber glass rod reinforced with a carbon fiber tube. The longer greatsword that are made with pvc always had a problem with whiping, but my friend bought one of theyre greatswords, and it doesnt whip in the slightest. They are created by injection processing, the entire weapon is essentially a single unit. There are no layers of primer, latex, paint, or sealant. They are expensive, mine cost $139 But the site doesnt charge shipping. I own an authentic medieval sword, and the weight is almost the same, and so it the balance. Again, i will admit that a real sword is obviously more real, but these are damn good and are the best alternative i have found, and ive looked for years. Ive had mine for about two and a half years, and there has been no wear n tear on it at all. The paint is the same as when i took it out of the box, there is a bit a dirt on it cause i havent cleaned it in a while, but otherwise its in the same condition as it was when i got it.

I'm out of the loop on this one...could someone explain what boffering is?

--Chris

Cole

Cool, didn't know you were a physics major......I was just worried that people might ge jacking around with stuff they didn't fully understand were dangerous......we get a lot of people reading this site and there is no-way to tell whom is reading what and what their background might be.

Since the topic was "safe sword fighting" I was a bit worried that people that didn't know etc might be might get confusd and think the weapons your talking about were "safe."

Safety first and all.

Thanks for the dojo reference. That explains much. Just how much do these things weigh? A good Japanese katana will weigh anywhere from 800 grams to 1400 grams. That's to say anywhere around 2 to 3 pounds. I have trouble imaginging anything made with a pvc, fiberglass, or carbon fiber core and latex coating weighing anywhere near as much and still approaching the same form as a real sword. The densities of the materials just don't allow it.

BTW, you may not be aware of it, but there is a good Araki Ryu dojo in Austin, and I seem to recall a Yagyu Shinkage Ryu dojo as well.

Im not personally in this dojo, i dont live anywhere near austin. As for the weight of the weapons, i dont have a scale or anything, but it feels about the same as my real sword, but thats just feeling it though. The foam on the sword its fairly dense, toward the inside it gets more solid, and more dense, then towards the outside it gets softer. And we are mostly safe, after the broken bones we instituted some rules, like wearing a cup, some kind of helmet to protect our head, and maybe heavy clothes. Again, me and my group are not a part of that dojo, we dont have a website or anything. But i have gotten better at this so i dont break any bones any more, i have stopped wearing the helmet again, and so far so good, except for the first day i got stabbed in the eye with a very nasty thrust at me as i was falling. But after that im doin great! Im just stubborn when it comes to that.

Well, as darwin as it may be, i enjoy the fighting, and learning to not get hit as much and not get hurt is a good accomplishment to me. Even though it hurts, i learn from it.

Why not do it for real? There is probably real training in available in your area?

That type of training, at least in my area, costs money per month, and being a college student in my own appartment, cant afford to go pay 80 -150 a month for that kind of thing, not even counting the equipment. Which also needs to be maintained. I prefer this to the 'real' thing, because i can get hit with it and feel it well without (Usually) much injury, and not have to wear padding or armor or the like. It also costs much less in the money department. I was, when i first started boffering, using the pvc pipe ones that are usually used, and was to say the least dubious of using the newer weapons as they cost more money, but they done break or need repaired as the pvc ones do. And the 'real' ones in my area arent exactly in my area, more like 1.5 hours away.

Cole

Sorry to drop back in so late......on the road...noe e-mail.

But just in case your still about.

Since its the "cost" of training that is bothering you...and it should, lessons are sometimes expensive.

Think how much a injury is going to cost you. ........you may not be the guy paying the insurence bill...but SOMEBODY is......you have mentioend injury prior..someot pretty serious.

Sounds like the proper training might be less expensive in the longer run......there used to be saying about being penny wise and pound foolish.

How sure are you that those training costs are correct? At our dojo college students only pay $50 a month. While $80 a month is not unheard of, I think it's on the high end of normal, and $150 is stratospheric. Most kendo and iai instructors aren't in it to make money so the dues are usually about what it takes to cover the bills and not much more.

When i went to check it out thats what they said. Unless they changed it. It wasnt martial arts, it was "Europoean Sword School" or something like that. They charged a lot, and you had to buy 7 different swords, at least i think it was 7, and you had to buy some kind of armor, i think it was chainmail, and that was what they said for it. I believe the swords were a rapier, a foil, a longsword, a shortsword, a dagger/dirk, a Sabre, and i believe there was one more that i cant remember.

By any chance were you purchasing these swords from the same people teaching the class?

As to whether or not these classes are worth $150, that's up to you to decide. If you let the free market decide what classes are worth, then I suspect the usual $50 to $80 range is a bit low, but then the free market isn't usually the driving force behind most of the folks into serious martial arts.

My understanding is that most of the serious western martial arts groups operated on a similar principle. Usually an obvious desire on the part of instructors to make money off their instruction is a red flag. Not necessarily a big red flag, but enough of one to make you look a little deeper to be sure nothing fishy is going on.

We could purchase the swords from them or from elsewhere, but there arent a whole lotta places around here that sell the real thing as far as swords go, and if we bought them from the 'instructors' we could get them at a 'discount price' but i looked online for some a the swords, and they were charging about 40-60 more than i found them online after finding out what the shipping cost would be. That was one of the major decisions that made me not want to join them. And that is just about the only european sword school that i can find around here.

Are you anywhere near a college town? If you are, many colleges have fencing clubs. Even if they do not suit you or your interests, they could provide useful information about other local schools or clubs that do not get listed in the yellow pages.

In my own case, in 1993 I went to a local sporting goods store looking for a practice weapon. The owner knew a gentleman who was just starting to teach Iaido with his instructor's permission. He was sharing the use of a local Aikido studio. It worked out extremely well.

Good luck.

You could also look up a local SCA group. The SCA folks make no squirly claims about legitmate links to European traditions, not that the group you mentioned does mind. They are for the most part good people. Most importantly they've got several decades of doing the sort of thing your doing, and doing it in a relatively safe fashion. Yes they will require you to wear certain pieces of protective gear. Gear that they have found to be absolutely necessary to the safe practice of the things they do.

Less than ideal perhaps, but better than going it alone if there are no other oppurtunities in your area.

Meh, i just prefer my own group fighting. I'd rather do this than go to sca, which i have had problems with before because i dont enjoy dressing up in medievel clothes, except for armor. and the sca that was here wouldnt let me participate in anything unless i was dressed up, which is one of the same problems i have with Amtgard. I just wanted to point out that, while i will admit boffering is not the best for practicing sword fighting styles, or the like, if done correctly, it can be a very good alternative. That was the whole reason behind me joining and posting on here.

That of course depends on your definition of "good alternative". Frequently this type of thread comes down to different definitions of "good alternatives". My own definition of good practice revolves around the teachings of my instructors. That is as it should be. The other posters here who have trained in one genuine sword art or another, base their defintions of good practices on their own instruction. Our experience is hard won.

As to your incompatibility with the SCA, that is your problem. If you cannot bring yourself to respect the traditions of the group you would like to train with enough to dress as their tradition says you should, then it is your failing not theirs. Of course, there is no reason you should have to train with anyone. If you're happy to fumble about on your own, then more power to you as long as you don't hurt anyone, and so long as you don't pretend to do anything other than what you are.

So...in other words 'what your doing isnt sword fighting and never will be'? And i will admit that the not wanting to dress up part is my fault, as far as the SCA goes, but when i want to go boffer, i absolutly refuse to go to amtgard in the middle of town dressed in a bath robe (Wizard). I just dont think that people should have to dress up to go have fun doing this. But that of course is my personal opinion. And also, unless you have seen us fight, please dont insult us by saying we are 'fumbling around' or 'pretending to do anything other than what you are'. you havent seen us fight. We have people who have trained in the sca for many years who have joined us and taught us how to fight.

Cole. I'm sorry, but what you are doing does qualify as fumbling about. You are not actively engaged in training under anyone unless I've missed something. You have a stick and you hit people with it and try to get a little better the more often you do it. That's a pretty good description of fumbling about.

So far as I can tell you are not pretending to do anything other than what you are. Good for you. Not everyone who does what you do are so honest about it. Many swear that they are practicing some ancient art or other, despite having no actual connections to any such art. That's just dishonest. So long as you are not doing that, and it appears that you are not, and so long as nobody gets hurt, then I don't have any real problem with what you are doing. I don't understand it.

As to whether or not you like Amtgard or SCA, that is your business. Don't workout with them. End of problem. Don't expect to join a traditional Japanese dojo, or even a respected WMA group, without being asked to dress in period clothing. It's not going to happen. Again, so long as you are satisfied with what you are doing, then knock yourself out. Just don't expect anyone who is training for real to take you too seriously.

While i respect your opinions, i disagree. As ive said, we have several people that were in the SCA for years that are teaching us proper techniques, and i myself have done a lot of research into it online, using many things i have found online to teach myself. And while you are correct, we wont have the ability to learn under life and death circumstances, as far as i know, not many people have that 'oppurtunity'. We also have done some training with Bokkens, both katana type and longsword types, and our group is very good. Im confident that if i had a real sword, i would do better with most, but thats just me, and its not likely to happen, so i wont find out for sure under real circumstances.

My friend R__ was invited to train for one of these things (never been to one) and day before takes me up on some technique as I was lending him my shinai (one day, gad), I gave him a sure winner as I assumed he might face hack and slashers, a modification of Gedan no Kamae w/ rt leg rear and sword rt low, I was uke and as I moved to strike he stepped rt leg and Jabbed Abd, finish w/ beheading...worked like a charm, except the group said Jabs were off limits and the immediate move to behead was not looked upon well. if this is common in "Boffering" than training must be more for great swords like the Claymore than Katana, good check of this is "do you practice sword clashing sword more than once in a combat?"

While I don't know whether or not I can be considered a "regular" I agree that boffering and the like isn't really a sword art. It is more or less a sword fighting game to me. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they are like apples and oranges when compared to each other.

That being said I don't think it should be a banned topic because it is not necessarily a bad thing to partake in these events while banned topics such as self-teaching is.
Plus, would chanbara be also a banned topic? Also, I feel there would have to be a sticky for guidelines as to what exactly qualifies as a sword art and what can be posted.

To be clear, when I suggest the topic should be banned, I don't mean it should be banned as a dangerous or illegitimate practice. Just that it seems out of scope for this forum as it is not a sword art. We don't allow other forms of off topic discussion. Those posts get moved to other forums or deleted.

So the question becomes, is boffering a valid topic for discussion in the Sword Arts forum. This would cover topics related to all topics related to boffering, including Chanbara, Amtgard, Dagohir, and unaffiliated backyard samurai.

oh, sorry I believe I misunderstood.

In that case, I'm all for a ban.

Charles

Ban is ok with me....might save a lot of time.

Then again, perhaps such discussions serve "some" value in the education of folks that don't know the differences.

I don't know.

BTW......."uaffilated backyard samurai"......excellent choice of words!

Meh, go ahead, i just joined to put my 2 cents in about the subject anyways.

I agree that discussions of this sort are technically out of the scope of this forum. However, I don't think they should be simply banned. It provides an opportunity for discussion that may be of benefit to some. Not too much other discussion going on in this forum at the moment .

That's a good point Paul. Perhaps there is value in discussing what is not a Sword Art in the Sword Arts forum. I hadn't thought of it in those terms before.