Cutting (Tameshigiri)

Well, I looked at the link provided and didn't see any real reference to the authors' credentials other than one had sensei after his name. I could write sensei after my name but it really wouldn't really mean much. And to be honest, both authors have very flawed logic.

The first author wrote "The act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree." The author makes reference to the sword being considered the "soul" of a samurai. This is where I think he became confused. A catholic cross wasn't designed with an edge or to bash trees. A sword has an edge, designed to cut. Using a sword to cut is using something the way it was designed to be used. The author then points out that a swordmaker puts his soul into making a sword and "Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectiful act towards the swordsmith and the sword..." Again, we have have the false idea that it's wrong to use something in the manner it was designed or made. He also makes reference to the fact the sword is one of the three imperial treasures. I guess he doesn't know the sword is called "Grass Cutter" because at one time the Emperor used the sword to cut down the high grass around him when enemies set the field he was in on fire. According to him, the Emperor disrespected the sword because he used it to save his life.

The second author dislikes using a sword to cut as well. I'm not going to quote him but if you read the article, he begins an illogical train of thought in how if someone would use tameshigiri to learn how to use a sword, it would lead to becoming a violent person. His logic could also lead one to believe that if you began to learn karate, that by breaking boards, you would have to progress to breaking peoples arms and legs as a practical means of learning karate. In the articles there are references that if since a sword will cut, if you have to prove you can cut, you really don't know how to cut, so you shouldn't cut. If I offend anyone, I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap.

The simple reason for tameshigiri today is that we don't use swords as folks once did. Tameshigiri doesn't test the sword to see if it cuts, it's a test to see if we can cut correctly. Are we learning how to use the sword correctly? Are we holding the sword right? Are we cutting or are we chopping? This is what and why one should do tameshigiri. Should one do it with a 400 year old national treasure? No. But there is no reason one shouldn't use a Paul Chen, Last Legend or a modern hand made sword today like a Clark L6 if they want. Ask a swordmaker or knifemaker if it would be disrespectiful to cut with their sword or knife. If they think it would be, then don't use their sword or knife.

If you don't want to cut with a sword, then don't. it's not a problem. But when you say I'm wrong because I don't respect the sword, or maker because I am testing myself, it becomes a problem. Speak for yourself, don't speak for me.

I'm sorry it went on so long. Please forgive me.

Stony

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/15/05 06:18 PM

What exactly do you consider "faulty reasoning"? I don't really see a logical flaw in his way of thinking... we're not aiming to become lethal killers by learning such arts as Iaido, so what's the point in learning just so you can cut with a sword? where's the logical flaw? Reading up on it, I'm starting to see their point. I don't know of many arts which train you up to be able to kill so that you go out and do it? self defence maybe, but sword arts are in their great majority deadly. Sure, you could cut legs off or something to stop an ennemy, but then he may bleed to death. The only point in "real" swordsmanship is to kill. That's not the intention of martial arts training.

Posted by: Stony

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/15/05 07:58 PM

Wow! Did I start something here! I wrote a reply the other day but it seems to have gotten lost. First let me state I am not a member of Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, I am not a 10th dan or a 6th dan or even 1st dan. To be honest, I have no knowledge of who Esaka Sensei or Diamantstein Sensei are or of thier organization. No disrespect was intended. I am not questioning their ability, rank or such. I do question their logic. Just because someone is a 10th dan doesn't mean their logic is perfect. I do believe I presented valid points as to why their logic is flawed. Their reasons for not doing tameshigiri were being presented as valid (i.e. good) reasons. I am not trying to convince them that they should do tameshigiri, I am trying to show what is flawed in their logic/reasons.

It should be noted that Diamantstein Sensei presented his reasons as his own "personal thoughts about tameshigiri." And it appears that he disagrees with Esaka Sensei about some matters. Again I do not want to attempt to quote the whole article but read it again. His statement of "Proving that you can cut with a sword is like proving water is wet." is very flawed. Please note that water is always wet, yet as several people have posted, not everyone can cut with a sword.

And Splice, as far as putting my foot in my mouth, didn't you say one should either accept all of a ryu and not just those parts they like? It appears you belong to ZNIR, which forbids tameshigiri, yet you admit to having done tameshigiri. Did you admit to doing something your organization forbids?

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/15/05 08:33 PM

when he said "Proving that you can cut with a sword is like proving that water is wet." I beleive he meant the fact that a sword is made to cut... however you seem to have perceived it as "proving that a certain individual can cut is like proving water is wet".. just thought I'd clear that up... and the logic that the guy who had worked many years and then tried to cut and failed... well, maybe he failed because he doubted his ability.. woops, circular reasoning. but maybe he'd just got his technique wrong because of lack of confidence in his ability... *shrugs*.

Posted by: splice

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/15/05 09:04 PM

Quote:

And Splice, as far as putting my foot in my mouth, didn't you say one should either accept all of a ryu and not just those parts they like? It appears you belong to ZNIR, which forbids tameshigiri, yet you admit to having done tameshigiri. Did you admit to doing something your organization forbids?

And here you go with foot in mouth disease again. I am not in any part of or affiliated with the ZNIR or Esaka sensei, nor have I ever said so. The organization I am part of does not forbid tameshigiri, and my sensei, his sensei, and their sensei were all present at that particular event.

Anyway, I've said my piece, and others have said it better.

Posted by: hyaku

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/15/05 10:52 PM

This subject has come up before on another forum. Quite a unique situation bacause swords arts have become faceted with people working on perfection of a particular facet. Could be that Esaka Sensei has very personal reasons for this stand. In that particular case, in his particular position? One would bow deeply shout out "Hai wakarimashita" and get on with things.

We too within the ryu have our particular quirks. One of them seems to not even bother to ask sword people to take part in our private demonstrations. The conversation usually goes, "X Sensei's a menkyo kaiden of Z ryu. Let's ask him to do a demo". Then when it comes to the crunch no one is invited.

Lots of people do belong to more than one association in Japan. Zen I Ren and Zen Ken Ren. Its not encouraged but it does happen.

Posted by: glad2bhere

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/16/05 08:21 AM

Dear Splice:

I sorta picked you at "random" if you will as I have noticed there have been a couple of curt exchanges among people here regarding affiliation. Since I am an outsider to Japanese traditions, I am wondering if you (or anyone else) can advise me about why it seems that folks who are involved with Japanese traditions seem inordinately "touchy" about which teacher they learn from or which organization they are members of? The reason I ask is that we seem to be talking about (what seems to me, anyhow) a pretty universal, and if you don't mind my saying, a pretty innocuous aspect of swordsmanship. Underneath the discuss I get the impression that there is some level of tension about who belongs to what group. Am I misreading this? Is there a valid reason for this--- beyond just personal loyalty, I mean? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/16/05 12:33 PM

There's a heavy inclination towards Honour in japanese culture, and it seems to come out after training even a little bit in MA... There's also the fact that often people disregard other practices, because they (can) go completely against what you've been taught... it makes things a little complicated at times, and debate can be hot... as long as it doesn't get too nasty that is

Posted by: splice

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/16/05 01:11 PM

Quote:

The reason I ask is that we seem to be talking about (what seems to me, anyhow) a pretty universal, and if you don't mind my saying, a pretty innocuous aspect of swordsmanship.

But that's the rub, isn't it? Every ryu has their philosophy, their way of doing things, their purpose for practicing. I believe it's a misconception that all ryu are to teach people swordsmanship. Some wish to teach improvement of the person, for example. And these are all encompassing philosophies of the ryu, they're not up to discussion unless you go the full training and get menkyo kaiden (or whatever) and get to think about your view of things.

The reason we're touchy about these things (IMHO) is that we're tasked with preserving traditions that are often hundreds of years old. There is no tension about who belongs to what group, at least from where I stand. However, breaking away from your teacher, incorporating things from other styles, not respecting your style's philosophy is basically saying "I don't care about the ryu and about preserving the teachings of the style, I just want to do it my way". You can do it your way in your backyard, you don't have to waste sensei's time, taking what part of the teachings you like, discarding the rest, and incorporating what you think the style lacks.

My curtness comes from the fact that some people seem to think there is one absolute answer, and it's either "tameshigiri MUST be done" or "tameshigiri SHOULD NOT be done". There is no such thing. Every ryu has a different goal, and tameshigiri fits (or not) differently within those goals. You can differ with the philosophy of one group, and yet not bring your arguments forward as the absolute truth (which they won't ever be, however logical you think are being).

Some of us are just interested in preserving what we're taught and passing it on to the next generation as it was taught to us.

Anyway, I've got stuff to do, and I've said more than enough already.

Posted by: cxt

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/16/05 01:28 PM

Glad

If I can add my unasked 2 cents here?

Kinda long--but its a complex subject.

Another couple of things to consider is that in most koryu, things are done the way are FOR A SPECIFIC REASON, even the little stuff, its done from a very specific comabtive outlook.
When you go "outside" the box, its less of question of weither or not it "works" and MUCH MORE of a question if its "fits" with the appraoch your learning.
Since skill level in koryu are usually measured in terms of decades--the general opinion is that unless and until you have absorbed the core of the teachings of a school--anything you do that may have a "different" appraoch does nothing but hurt your progress.

At a certain point, historically speaking many folks trained in other arts--but they ONLY DID SO AFTER HAVING ACHIVEING VERY HIGH LEVELS OF SKILL.

In dealing with the "do" arts--which I define here as "way" some teachers of the classical do arts seriously feel that using their art to harm other people is "wrong" that what they teach is designed for various mental/emotional/spiritual development.
And they take it VERY seriously.

To paraphrase one iaido teacher I know "If you want to kill a man, buy a gun, its MUCH better than a sword.
If you want to be a better person, learn to overcome some of your own hang-ups and personal weaknes, then pick up the sword."

What I think he was getting at is the basic purpose for HIS and probably other peoples training is NOT is combat effectiveness--which in the case means that arguements for the use of test cutting ARE NOT THE POINT.
From a certain perspective, one held by the teacher in question, "combat effectiveness" is the last thing that concerns him.

Kinda like telling your combat handgun teacher that you wish to focus on the "spiritual" aspects of shooting--you'll be told "That's NOT what we do here."

When you train with someone, your kinda agreeing to follow his lead--and folks that train with the insgructer in question KNOW what his feelings are going it--so they pretty much have to do it his way.

Or don't train with him--nobody is forceing them.

Posted by: yen

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/16/05 03:50 PM

Being a student of Shinkendo, I guess it's obvious where I stand.

That being said, for those who are interested in reading on the subject (even if you don't practice it), Kaiso Obata has a new book out about Shinkendo Tameshigiri which can be found on Amazon.

Posted by: Nik_Miller

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/17/05 12:35 AM

Just to clarify, I was speaking of testing ones ability to cut from a completely western martial art view. Im in no way connected with japanese sword arts or anything like that. The most ive ever done with any katana like object is do some cutting with a PPK.

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/17/05 06:39 AM

the western martial art point of view being.. cut as much as you want?

Posted by: glad2bhere

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/17/05 09:37 AM

Dear CXT:

I am right there with you in my own practice, so I think you may appreciate my confusion (consternation??) that in a recent exchange (on another Net) about the relationship of learning Ethics and community responsibility to practice in the Dojo, my thoughts were characterized as "touchy-feel-y" or "New Age mumbo-jumbo". Seems like every authentic source I have found as I read-up on Japanese sword traditions speaks to the polishing of Character expected of a practitioner. I am left to consider what might produce such a wide disparity among practitioners of the same family of arts such that some feel as do you and others believe that their practice is limited only to what happens in the school. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Posted by: Nik_Miller

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/17/05 10:34 AM

read my posts in this thread. But just to recap. The views of the wma comunity tend to be that test cutting is an important tool that is neccisary to reach martial proficiency. The exact ammount its practiced is up to the individual. The more you cut the better you cut, the more you thrust the better you thrust. And if you thrust and cut with historically accurate techniques then you will be a more effective fighter, because a sword injurs and kills by cutting and thrusting, so you need to be good at cutting and thrusting to be able to survive and encounter. And I am well aware that that view is because most people practicing western martial arts practice them for combat effectiveness, though we know we will most likely never face a conflict useing swords. We do that because we are trying to completely recreate the art, combat mindset and everything. And that can probably be see as alot less practical in todays world than spiritual sword arts like iaido. But as i said we are working on recreating every aspect of the art that has been all but lost. Which includes working towards combat effectiveness. And to become effective with a sword you need to know how to cut and thrust, which you learn by drilling techniques which represent the principles of the fighting style, as well as useing those techniques against targets that resemble human flesh(sometimes even cutting and thrusting against freshly killed animals). All for the purpose of becomeing combat effective in that art to completely recreate it. Now dont accuse me or the westner community of being a bunch of people who only want to cut stuff up or anything, as ive said and will probably have to say again, that is only one facet of the training.

Also as far as the animal cutting goes, not very many people do it, and some disdain it. But is as close to cutting a human as you can come and will therefore give you a good idea of how effective your strikes and thrusts would be against a human.

If theres anything im being unclear about please let me know and I will try to elaborate as best I can.

Posted by: cxt

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/17/05 05:20 PM

Glad

Best I can guess is that people being people, they just won't agree on all things.
The more folks that become involved in the martial arts the more folks there are to disagree over how they are "done."

I laughed tail off one day over a buddy of mine that had gone to one of the Niten Ryu seminars up in Canada a number of years ago.
The subject of test cutting came up--and when he was asked he looked the guy right in the eye and said (as goes the story) "I study Mushashi style--we use bokken for combat, just like he did."

Some guy stated that a "shinken" (which was in a bag at his feet)was a better weapon.

The guy spun around, raised his bokken above his head and in the most frightening voice he could muster spat out--

"Lets see if you can get out before I smash your ^P^*^*&*skull!!!!!"

Dude just froze.

Topic also reminded me of an interesting historical aside. I was reading a book that published the numbers of people that had committed crimes in the Middle Ages and the weapon they used.

Thing is that BY FAR more folks were killed and seriousley injured by folks using simple clubs and staves.
On the one hand, most folks could not afford good swords--on the other hand, it sure does NOT require a razor sharp cutting blade to quite neatly and effectivly kill a man.

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/17/05 07:05 PM

to kill person sword can be completely blunt... I have an antique medieval sword that's completely blunt, but I'm certain the end could go through a person quite effectively.

Posted by: kroh

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/24/05 02:18 PM

Just out of curiosity...

What is everyone on this list who does test cutting...well..cutting?

And where do you get your supplies from?

The one thing that I am having a hard time tracking down is fresh green bamboo. Standard japanese style matt targets are easy to get ahold of with several places now offering them for sale. Just can't seem to track down the green stuff though.

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/24/05 05:03 PM

Tameshigiri tends to be alot more based on mats because they're alot easier to get hold of and therefore cheaper to cut

Posted by: kroh

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/24/05 07:08 PM

Now that I am no longer under an instructor that cuts often, my own cutting practice has wained some as it has taken a back seat to other aspects of the arts I practice. I recently got back into cut testing and am now ordering the supplies myself. AS I am doing this more often i am also going through targets more often and the bamboo was something I did with a previous instructor that I would like to get back into.

I did some bamboo cutting the other day and went through the supply that I had. As i would like to do more I was wondering if anyone ( especially anyone here who does Shinkendo <or Toyama Ryu> or Haedong Kumdo) new a different supplier. So far the best I have found is Mugen Dachi, Bugei trading, and Mantis Swords. There are always the beach mats but they are usually flimsy and don't produce much resistance to butterknives let alone a shinken. Hence why I am looking for green bamboo. Not forall the time but when I want a bit of a challenge.

Thanks all,
Regards,
Walt

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/25/05 06:50 PM

umm normally it's not a beach mat, it's a mat that's really common in japan in most households and you can layer it as much asyou want... it offers resistance.. I don't know how realistic this is, but I heard (from a japanese friend) that a well set up target is about as hard to cut through as a human leg... don't know how realistic that is, might look it up later if I'm bored...

Posted by: hyaku

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 06/27/05 02:36 AM

Main difference between beach mats is that they are around half the size of goza (tatami top layer). They are stitched around the edges and have aroung twice as much threadwork to hold them together. The thing is as I already said any idiot can cut these things witha a few simple instructions. testing out ones correct technique using kahanshin and correct hip application is equivelant to taking grades in other arts. It takes years of practice.

Posted by: kroh

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 07/19/05 11:08 AM

I agree that the beach matts are sub standard ( and remarkably thin ). Mugen Dachi has some quality supplies and they have recenlty replenished their stock.

Regards,
Walt

Posted by: pgsmith

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 07/19/05 01:53 PM

Comparison of currently available mats from different sources for tameshigiri. Enjoy ... http://www.ejmas.com/tin/tinart_smith_1103.html

Posted by: Benjamin1986

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 07/24/05 05:47 PM

As important as what you cut is what not to cut.

OK TO CUT
Tatami mats - Preferable.
Rolled up newspaper - the poor man's tatami. Be sure to clean off any scraps, and polish it to remove any trace of ink.
Jugs of water (2-liter or milk) - Works, but not ideal. Remember to dry and oil the blade

NOT OK TO CUT

Wood - Ever looked at your hand-axe? If it's like mine, it has a bunch of small notches on the blade with a discolored and dented surface. This is ok wear and tear for a fifteen dollar axe, but you don't want this to happen to your blade.

PVC - Don't. Ever. The stuff looks like good cutting material: cheap, relatively thin, useful stuff. However, it has an occasional habit of forcefully shattering in different directions at the cut. When this happens (as it will every few cuts), your blade could get a rolled edge, a chipped edge, or even snapped. The first is fixable (for a decent sum), but the other two are not.

Metal - Nails will dent, notch, and/or scrape up your blade. Wider objects (such as the flat of your opponent's sword) will probably do less damage, but will still significantly dull the blade. This is why you never secure a tatami mat with a nail, but with a wooden peg (a lesson a n aquaintance of mine discovered when he notched his Jian pretty well (cut the nail almost clear in half, though). Metal is not made for cutting metal, and if it is, it is through small, repetitive motions (ie: mills, saws, etc), not big sweeps.

I hope this answers your question, Kroh.

Posted by: pgsmith

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 07/24/05 06:13 PM

Quote:

OK TO CUT
Tatami mats - Preferable.
Rolled up newspaper - the poor man's tatami. Be sure to clean off any scraps, and polish it to remove any trace of ink.
Jugs of water (2-liter or milk) - Works, but not ideal. Remember to dry and oil the blade

I have to disagree quite vehemently with your assesment of what's OK to cut.
Tatami mats are preferable.
Bamboo is good if you have had sufficient training and know what you're doing. Otherwise, it's a chipped blade.
Rolled up newspaper is NOT a good thing to cut. Aluminum oxide is used to pulp the wood. It is present in large quantities in paper and cardboard. Basically you will be cutting fine grade sandpaper since that is what most sandpaper is made of. I would definitely NOT recommend it.
Jugs of water are just plain silly. It can possibly tell you if your sword is sharp, but not much else. I tried it once when I heard other people making a big deal of it. I found no redeeming value in it what so ever, unless you count the "hyuck, hyuck, look what I did" factor.

Just my opinions based upon my experiences.

Posted by: Warwolph

Re: Cutting (Tameshigiri) - 07/24/05 07:22 PM

Quote:

I found no redeeming value in it what so ever, unless you count the "hyuck, hyuck, look what I did" factor.

not to mention wasting a perfectly good jug..

Cutting (Tameshigiri)