Approching a trained subject

Some of you are in agencies and Orgs. that have limited weaponry allowed. What is you policy AND how do You approch a subject you belive or know has MA or combat training?

Is the Policy effective?

Is the way you do it effective?

Any "War" stories? (I love those)

Doughnut

The first factor to consider is,"do I need to do this or can it wait? One of the most effective fighting stratgies in LE is to CALL FOR BACK UP. Superior numbers is the worlds greatest equalizer. If it cant wait,,Im coming in spraying OC and swinging a baton (preferably after he's blinded).
Our policy is to be one level of force above the suspect. I use bodyguard 10% LE only spray. So far it has a 100% stop rate for me.Last time I used it the moron perp was working himself up,,swearing and posturing. While he was grounding his hat and jacket I was drawing my spray and holding it down by my leg. As he came in I gave him a good one second spray in the face, fight over. God I love technology! K-

I'm there with kman and will use what is available to me. We use PunchII that is 5% and is waterbased since we are going to get TAZER's....tazer's and isopropyl alcohol really don't mix. If that doesn't work I'd put out and officer assist or call for back-up. As soon as he/she grabs for my gun it is over and they'll get one to the head. Sounds violent but that is the clientel we come into contact with each and everyday. Usually when you are in a knockdown dragout fight anything goes in order to get control of the subject. The problem LE officers run into is the fact that we cannot continue to pound on a subject after he is controlled or subdued unlike a street fight when you can continue to beat the crap out the a-hole.

First of all, I'm not an LEO.

But, how would you KNOW someone is a trained subject?

And, what IS a trained subject? A person who has studied a martial art for ten years? Someone who has done Western boxing for ten years and competed in amateur matches? Someone who was trained in hand-to-hand combet while in the military?

I agree with what Xerxes says, but I wanted to take it a step further for emphasis...

I believe that the more highly trained an individual is, the less warning you will get from the time he "tips his hand" and the first blow lands. You can look for general indicators-- body positioning, eye movement, foot placement, but you really never know. As such, I think you should develop a "standard practice" for approaching that you always employ, without making any guesses or assumptions about who you are dealing with.

This is beneficial in more than one way-- you want to make your "best practice" a habit that doesn't require thought, so that under duress it becomes your automatic response. Also, you don't want to run the risk of bringing your "C" game to someone who you really should have brought your "A" game to.

Unfortunately, you may not get more than one chance to underestimate someone. I'm not saying you should brutalize everyone you come into contact with, but you should always be extremely aware of safe body positioning and potential physical threats, no matter how goofy the subject appears at first glance-- you never know who might decide to throw an elbow or worse if he sees an opportunity.

I'm not into the law Business either but if I was, everyone that approached me would be seen as an expert, never under estimate your opponent.

Unless you are psychic you cannot tell 100% if a subject is "highly trained" or not. Your safest course of action is to treat everyone as if they are trained, and put them in a position of greatest disadvantge to them, and greatest advantage to you. Prone them out, cross their legs (figure-four), interlaced fingers, head turned away from you. Maintain your weapon position until you have complete control over the subject. Be ready to ditch the hold you have, get distance and go back to weapons. Wall searches will get you killed. If you are mobile you are safer, if the subject is mobile the subject is dangerous. Backup is always good to have before you put hands on, but if that isn't possible prone them out (belly down) and keep them there until you can secure them safely. The bad guys practice defeating cuffing techniques daily, are you training daily? Don't worry you have the rest of you life to figure it out...
Stay Alert, Stay Alive

Allow an old cop to reply. Challange only from an interrogation stance. It resembles a "T" stance, weapon side away from suspect. Use a gentle tone of voice but allow suspect no room for doubt. If he uses his hands or feet use baton or ASP. Put him down hard. Shins at first if no response it is time for elbow or coller bone strikes. If he pulls a knife retreat about fifteen feet and cancel his ticket there and them. If he has gun get behind COVER and send him home to Jesus or whomever. Remember, disparity of force. Female or older officer can use much more force against younger punk. Stay Safe.

Trained criminals :

Just about any kid can throw a spining back kick. Hence the level of fighting knowledge is very high. Having said this, it doesn't mean that these kids are proficient fighters.
Yet they can never be underestimated, as know one should be.

As I have done some security details, I do agree with some statements offered by seasoned police officiers. Having trained clients from the OPP I can tell you that apart from Block training, not much else is done in the MA format.

It is incouraged that a police officer take up some form of Boxing/MA. It is to my knowlege that many are burdened by so many other things that MA training is non existant.

A good book that I recomend to read for the police : Far Beyond Defensive Tactics by Loren Christensen.

Take care out there !!
Kobun Out

Some of you are in agencies and Orgs. that have limited weaponry allowed. What is you policy AND how do You approch a subject you belive or know has MA or combat training?
Is the Policy effective?

There is no policy written to comprehensively address this scenario aside from the idea of using objectively reasonable force. What exactly is that? Well, you might be in it up to your eyeballs before you figure it out. That is, either you have background info on him, he tips his hand and adopts a posture or he uses a skill that you recognize as a trained response.

Assuming the officer knows that the subject has training, the unofficial directive is to await backup, form a plan and utilize intermediate weapons (taser, oc, batons, leg restraints, etc) as needed.

Is the way you do it effective?

Me personally? Yes. Getting an entire agency on the same sheet of music is an entirely different story though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doughnut:
Some of you are in agencies and Orgs. that have limited weaponry allowed. What is you policy AND how do You approch a subject you belive or know has MA or combat training?

Is the Policy effective?

Is the way you do it effective?

Any "War" stories? (I love those)

Doughnut[/QUOTE]


This is reaaly good! I tried almost the same thing in the "MA Talk" with the thread "Recogizing a Threat". It was basically for the same reason but it is probably more appropriate here. As LEOs we do this day in and day out. First, I think that it is possible for an LEO who is also a martial artist to pick up on a guy with MA training. A guy who thinks he's Bruce Lee is easy of course but I think you can read the body language and pick up on the non-verbals of someone. An LEO who doesn't do MAs may also recognize subtle cues as a potential threat but with a different frame of reference.

"War Story" for Doughnut: About 6 years ago I was locking up two Lebonese guys in Brooklyn. My partner and I had arrested both of them before. They were an uncle and nephew (the uncle was younger, go figure). They both "came of age" in Beirut, Lebonon, during the 80's and were not "typical" bad guys. The uncle was the brains of the pair. The nephew was a body builder, about 5'7", powerfully built but kind of sloppy looking and gave the impression that he was not at his fighting wieght. Over the course of about an hour the uncle talked, while the nephew just smiled and didn't say much. When they got the idea that they MIGHT be getting locked up again the nephew's happy demeanor and body language changed subtly. It was not overt and threatening but his eyes, breathing and movements had a certain familiarity that you only see in a dojo. I watched him carefully for several minutes and then discreetly let him know that he was not the only one present with "skills". In the end they were well behaved. A few months later I found out from the uncle that his older nephew was a 2nd Dan in TKD. He had competed for a time and was supposed to be halfway decent. He got very stressed at the thought of having to go to Riker's Island and thought about fighting and running. He didn't because (in a lucid moment) he thought that it wouldn't be worth it AND that he understood I was also an MA. That posed a problem for him because he was uncertain about whether he would get past the "fight" stage. Nothing dramatic about this, just an example that seems appropriate here. For the record my partner, an experienced and very perceptive LEO, only thought he was "a little hokey" and didn't pick up on the cues I did.

Regarding the policy question there is only the broad use of force standards. There is no specific distinction involving an MA or anyone else with "training". It could possibly come in to play later when evalauting what was "reasonable and necessary" and in the context that it occurred.

- KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]