Professional Conflict

Posted by: judderman

Professional Conflict - 11/09/01 02:01 PM

Just wondering if any professionals have found it difficult making the transition from their martial arts training and that which is given you on the job (if any)?

When the preverbial hits the fan which springs to mind? Or are you able to switch from one to the other?

Posted by: SenseiTank

Re: Professional Conflict - 09/26/02 10:46 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Just wondering if any professionals have found it difficult making the transition from their martial arts training and that which is given you on the job (if any)?

When the preverbial hits the fan which springs to mind? Or are you able to switch from one to the other?


I am a security officer for a major corporation. I am in charge of the reception and all visitors, vendors, etc... have to identify themselves to me before they can step foot in. Most "suits" do not like to have to submit in this manner to a member of an "ethnic" group such as mine.
I purchased a copy of a book called Verbal Judo by Dr. George Thompson. I found that even though alot of the things that the book presented were things I already used, I felt that for me it would be better to modify it to fit more the Verbal Karate, specifically, Verbal Goju Ryu(LOL). This worked better because alot of suites are familiar with Verbal Judo and Dale Carnegie. So in my "altercations" I`ve had to "inflict injury" to show that policy will be enforced, no ifs ands or buts(butts).

But no physical altercations [IMG][/IMG]

Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 10/14/02 06:30 AM

I am a police officer and I also hold shodan in aikibudo and, without question, when the fur starts to fly my martial arts training is invaluable.

From practical experience I have found that I have a core of maybe 5 or 6 tried and trusted "favourite" techniques that I revert to when under pressure. Because I train in these more regularly than techniques taught to me by "the job" they are more natural to me than any others.

But the bottom line is that when self preservation takes over the techniques aren't done clean, as in the dojo, and they are mixed with a liberal amount of aggression and dirty fighting. So perhaps the best answer is that the techniques are taken from the training hall and made to work on the street by whatever means possible.

Posted by: dragon

Re: Professional Conflict - 12/25/02 02:37 PM

I have worked in the Corrections system now for 21 years. One thing we must realize is that all this training gives us a slight edge and during a conflict there is (hopefully) a moment of time where we can "See" the opening. There is no doubt that training in the MA and training in Law enforcement is different. Basiclly in Law enforcement you must be careful of getting carried away and being bogged down in paper work for months after your moment of conflict. It is my experience as someone else had said that we end up using a few selective moves that satisfy our own need for self defence and our need to be professional. In combat the goal is to stop the assault in Law enforcement the goal is to create and "arrest and control" although similar they can be very different.

Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 12/30/02 03:00 PM

I'm so glad to see the paperwork problem exists on both sides ofg the Atlantic [IMG][/IMG]

One of my main reasons for training in "do" arts as well as "jutsu" styles was that the former are more legally, morally and ethically defensible. I am a firm believer that we fight as we train, and if you train only in techniques meant to cause maximum injury, you will approach a real conflict in the same manner.

Both Judo and Aikido teach control of an opponent rather than disabling him, and I think that is important for any professional who's duties will bring them into violent conflict with others. So, whilst I thoroughly enjoy the "harder" jutsu arts, I think it essential that I temper them with less severe styles as well.
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/22/03 08:19 AM

Hi,Mr Tank and Mr Dragon as well as the others are all telling the truth actually. I have been in full-time law enforcement for 15 years and martial arts for almost 25 years. Another thing to consider unfortunately is: 1)your departments "use of force" policy, you know you could get your rump dragged in front of the District Attorney or your Chief or Internal Affairs because you used what someone (the defendant, a jealous officer, which every department has, a biased witness)who was not even at the incident would call "unreasonable force", which leads me to: 2)how far will your administration back you, if you are a political favorite in your department. I have guys who are terrible cops but because they are a**kissers they get praise and protection from the boss for completely overreacting(choking some kid for smoking a bowl of weed or bashing some mental case in the head with a flashlight because he did not move quickly enough)to some situations while some guys are threatened with disciplinary action for essentially handcuffing too tight. Sorry, but the rules change for every officer depending if you are in the Chief's clique. If you have been "on the job" for a while you know what I mean. And watch those video cameras, everyone has them, and your own department's video can be subpeonaed by the defendant or your own Chief or the DA (to save his behind and get rid of yours). Watch your back and where and when you have to apply force ! I am not ready to lose my house and pension for some DWI who is a little mouthy or a juvenile who takes a poke at me. It is sad but true, we have targets on on backs. Had to get that off of my back.
Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/23/03 10:08 AM

Ashton, We're only just begining to see the implications of constant video surveillance over here, but already I can see that you're speaking a lot of sense. Things have a nasty way of getting distorted, or taken out of context, when videos are involved. Like you, I'm in no hurry to risk my liberty and my pension over a moments loss of control because some shithead has been giving you grief.

We also have our blue eyed boys (and girls), who can do no wrong. They sing the company song, whatever it may be, and "challenge" anything they think isn't PC enough. It makes most of us sick, but these clowns get on and become high ranking officers.

Over here "the job" has gone nuts, and really has lost the plot. We need to get back to what we should be doing, not pratting about with politics.

Yours In Budo
Posted by: taebot

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/24/03 03:26 AM

I trained with Dr. Thompson in TKD. His influence got me to return to college. He was an ex-cop turned head of the English department and I thought, if a guy like that could do it...

He started me reading classic Literature. I read Magistre Ludi by Herman Hesse and was excited about the way it portrayed the human search for knowlege and purity.

It's hard to be in law enforcement anymore. I'm not a cop, but many of my teachers, students, and associates are.

Also Harrison Sensei has thoughts on how to assault someone while making it look innocent [IMG][/IMG] !
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/24/03 06:25 PM

I'm trying to figure out how video footage could "confuse" an issue more than eyewitness accounts?
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/25/03 09:00 AM

Well, with video usage, depending where you live, the audio is not admissible. So, no one hears what is going on. Also, video is limited and you don't see what could be just out of the camera range or what has happenened before or after the video was shut off. Your "eyewitness" could have a tainted eye towards the police or even in some circumstances-the defendant(if he is a bad neighbor or involved in in a bad relationship with def). People are funny. On the job my favorite weapon is the pen.
I write everything down, everything, even if it is nonsense. We (my dept) is under seige. We have GPS systems in our cars and cameras everywhere. All gotten on some B.S. grant money. Got off of the martial arts track, but if you're reading this you must have some idea that the idea of being aware of your enviroment is applicable everywhere, even on the job, just like on the street. Eyes open !
Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/25/03 09:15 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamoni:
I'm trying to figure out how video footage could "confuse" an issue more than eyewitness accounts? [/QUOTE]

Really? How naive are you? [IMG][/IMG]
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/26/03 07:35 PM

Cato, you're being rude. I'm not naive. I'm asking a question. Ashton gave me valid examples which answered my question. You gave me insults. Embarassed?
Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/27/03 02:51 AM

Not especially, Jamoni. Tongue in cheek must be an expression with which you are unfamiliar. No insult intended.

Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 02/27/03 06:24 PM

Fair enough.
Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/01/03 04:10 AM

aaargh...sorry Jamoni, I've had another look and it doesn't read as I intended. Damn this internet thing. My apologies, no insult was intended.

Now, to illustrate the point let me give you an example. A row of bobbies stood alongside a picket line, all quite nice and friendly, when someone in the crowd grabs one bobbys hat from his head, for a joke. As it gets passed around the bobby reaches forward to take it back. All the time the videos are rolling.

Later the dispute gets a bit naughty and some arrests are made. The media howl with indignation at the heavy handed police tactics, and to illustrate the point a still from one video appears in the press, showing a bobby apparently lunging into the crowd and planting someone. Now, we know that bobby was getting his hat back, but that can't be seen from the angle of the still. No doubt if the whole video is watched it becomes apparent, but who's going to see it?
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/02/03 12:05 AM

It's all good, Cato. I only noticed the smiley in your post AFTER I responded. I wonder how many "jokes" have led to international incidents due to poor translation? HEHEHE
Sort of shows why Dojo etiquette is so important.
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/03/03 12:13 PM

Cato, is the whole "media distortion hype" thing big in the UK as it is here in the States ? Just curious. The whole incident that you mentioned sounds like a potential public relations nightmare. Also, do all boobies carry firearms or just officer assigned to special details, etc ? Thanks and Peace, Ashton
Posted by: mark

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/06/03 08:40 AM

cato, was it the poll tax protests you were talking about?

Lol, but dont the media love to slag the police these days.

And some of the jurys that you can face, omg!!

Damn glad i left the service.


Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/06/03 05:43 PM

I think it is good that the police are hounded by the press. Sure, it makes your job harder. Example: During Mardi Gras several years ago, the St. Louis Po-po got gestapo on the partiers. They beat them up, maced them, and in general had a field day hurting drunks. I was IN a friends house. We opened the door to see what was up, and got maced. Then the cop LEANED INTO THE HOUSE AND MACED EVERYONE ELSE. We got maced in a private home for opening the door. Needless to say the media ripped the balls off of the police chief, AND THAT WAS A GOOD THING. No offense meant to any cops, but EVERYONE needs to be held accountable for their actions, because everyone is capable of negligence, brutality, or just plain stupidity. This of course, includes the press.
Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/10/03 04:41 PM

You are of course quite right, everybody needs to be accountable. The question is: Is the media an appropriate body to provide the evidence for that accountability?

The biggest problem over here seems to be that trial by media is becoming common place, and the media often have their own agenda. In no way could the British press be said to be unbais, always accurate or even always truthfull.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/10/03 06:41 PM

Well, in those regards, the US press is probably the worst. They are like a bunch of fourteen year old girls: Did you hear about... OHMYGAWDIKNOW! And then he... NO! HE DIDN"T! TOTALLY he DID!
Still, if not them, who?
Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/11/03 03:42 AM

Sorry, Ashton - I forgot to add a reply to you. I think the media are becoming more intrusive over here in general, and it is quite frightening to realise that most of the press is run by a very small group of business men with their own interests to safeguard. Sadly, the police are seen as a legitimate means through which to attack the government, and if the government is unpopular the police get a slagging.

On an individuaL level we are only now having to face up to something you guys have had to put up with for years - civil litigation. It is now very popular in the UK to try to sue police officers, mainly fuelled by the number of "no win, no fee" solicitors knocking on people's doors. This generates a lot of negative press for the service and makes for a good story. The fact that the poor bobby gets exonerated doesn't usually warrant a mention.

As for firearms, we are one of the few police services that does not routinely arm. We have Armed Response Vehicles and Authorised Firearm Officers but authority to arm is only ever given reluctantly. As a point of interest, I am a dog handler and often work alongside AFO's, but I am not allowed to carry a firearm myself, because I have to be responsible for my dog. We put forward the argument of having a sidearm for personal protection and have been told we have a dog for that. So now you know, GSD's are officially bulletproof. It's nice to be valued.

Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/11/03 10:07 PM

Cato, if it's any consolation, I live in the ghetto. I own both dogs and guns. people here just laugh if you pull out a gun, but they are scared SHITLESS of dogs. We own four dogs, and they keep my place safer than a yard full of guns ever could.
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/12/03 10:49 AM

Cato, thank you for the response....I was always curious about armed police in the UK. Jamoni, you hit the nail on the head, folks will taunt you and say "Go head, you ain't gonna pull the trigger !" But, show them your dogs and they crap their pants. I own two boxers and a pitbull. Sorry, I can't take the incessant shedding of the GSD (not that they are not great dogs,they are). I happen to love a medium size dog with heart. I like anything with mastiff or bulldog in it. Folks know that a reasonable person, with something to lose is not going to drop the hammer or lay their hands on them, but will let their dogs out on them if need be. Had a "prowler" once outside the house, let the dogs out....held him until I could render a good swift kick to the ass with a warning never to return. Ahhh, martial arts, guns and dogs, gotta love'em.
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/22/03 03:46 PM

Hey, just curious guys....seems like everyone who has been in this particular post is in the law enforcement/security/military field (I am taking a guess). What art/arts do you guys study ? And I know it's a little off track, but if you have a dog (for home security/pet, what breed do you have ? And if you are in the US or a country where fireams are permitted,what is your favorite home defense weapon ? Again, I am just curious. Thank you for induldging my inquiries. Just gathering info and opinions.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/22/03 06:24 PM

Ashton, I don't know what the heck my dogs are. Pound puppies, each and every one. They are healthier, smarter, (and cheaper) than most mixed breeds (unless you personally know the breeder and their standards). As far as favorite home defense weapon? Pound puppies. After that, It's a Smith and Wesson .357. I like revolvers cause they are simple, foolproof, and mainly cause the only other gun I own is a Ruger 10/22. Given my choice, though, I'd get a bare basics 12 gauge shotgun. Still, your best option is the dogs, an alarm, well lit exterior, and get to be good friends with your neighbors.
Right now I practice Bagua and Escrima.
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/23/03 10:47 PM

Thanks for the response, Jamoni. I, too utilize a .357 revolver, a Speed-Six Ruger for home defense, it was inexpensive and the revolver is the most reliable, especially under stress and still has some of the best "knock down" power. Sadly, I cruise through the local animal shelter, even though I have plenty of dog at home, it is a shame, there are so many good dogs needing a home there.
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/24/03 12:23 AM

Are modern autoloading pistols that unrealiable? .357, Magnum especially, seems like a good cailber to me. With the magnum, I don't think you'd get the horror stories of some cokehead whacked up on PCP walking into the hail of bullets, unlike the 9mm parabellum. Also, how true are thse tales?

I suppose if the revolver stops working, at least you can throw it or hit them with it.
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/24/03 10:14 AM

I would not want to get konked on the head by an empty revolver thrown at me, that might just hurt a little. Seriously, my opinion and it is just an opinion, I am not professing to know everthing, well almost everything [IMG][/IMG] A .22 caliber shot in the right spot beats getting winged by a .44 magnum. My experience is that as a cop there has never been an instance that I was outgunned because I had a revolver, and when we switched to auto-loaders, I did not get any more of a boost of confidence. If you are a professional that carries a firearm in your line of work, just like martial arts philosophy, your best weapon is tactics and that thing between your ears, not just placing all of your eggs in one basket or in this case, one holster. Your training is your advantage on a badguy. It's true in martial arts, too. Just while recently qualifying on the range, I have seen officers "limp wrist" their guns, causing jams, stove pipes and a whole host of problems never experienced by revolver use. A solution is that they should practice more, they won't, the emphasis on policing at least around my parts is that firearms qualifying is just done so the insurance companies are happy that you're now an instant "expert". No time for correcting'd you like to be on the street with one of those guys backing you up ? Many veteran officers have to go through qualification three times to make minimum score for passing. Some even hold rank. One guy, a "golden boy" shot himself in the hand off-duty...swept under the proverbial rug. His local police looked into it, but no remedial classes, disciplinary action or investigation ! What if he accidentally discharges on duty and kills someone ? Not that qualifying is an opportunity to correct your bad habits and polish up on your shooting skills.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/24/03 10:28 PM

It's not that automatics are unreliable, it's that for the same money, a revolver is MORE reliable. I paid $300 for my .357. You won't get much of an auto for that. Also, less levers and crap to fumble in an emergency, ESPECIALLY IF YOU DON'T TRAIN AS MUCH AS YOU SHOULD. Plus, they LOOK the business. Ever hear a .357 in close quarters? Intimidating, to say the least.
In summary: Cheaper, more reliable, easier to use. Downside: Ammo capacity.
As far as caliber, more people die from .22 LR than any other round. Usually in the hospital, and often after they've killed or injured their opponent. If you use anything that small, a head shot is mandatory. .357? Well, they fall down real quick, no matter where you get em.
Posted by: Cato

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/25/03 02:52 AM

Just to clarify for us Brits: What is the law regarding frearms over there?

In the UK you would need to hold a firearms licence (which can be, and most often is refused), any firearm would have to be stored on a secure metal gun cabinet bolted to your wall, there would be a limit on the type/quantity of ammo. you could have and if you ever discharged your firearm in public, never mind at a person, then you would be in deep poo.

I assume your "rules" are somewhat more relaxed [IMG][/IMG]

Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/25/03 06:43 PM

Cato, more relaxed is an understatement. Where I live, you need a permit to purchase a handgun, but not to own one. These are dependent on a police records check and a letter of recommendation from two non-felons. To purchase a long arm requires an "instant" background check that takes about 15 minutes. A concealed carry permit is difficult to obtain, but not impossible (if you have money and connections), We have firearms storage liability laws, but the method of storage isn't prescribed. Basically, if your kid shoots himself, you didn't store it right. Firearms discharge is illegal within city limits, unless you can show self defense. This doesn't really matter though, because you hear shots all the time. The cops usually don't bother with them. Bear in mind, I live in the city, where firearms laws are very strict. When I stayed in Louisiana, it was cash and carry, and concealed carry was legal for every non felon, WITHOUT A PERMIT.
Posted by: Ashton

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/27/03 02:53 PM

Jamoni, well said about the revolver, you hit the nail on the head. That is so true about more people getting killed by .22, also .25's as well. I guess they are cheap and easy to keep fed. And also I too think that in close quarters that "wheel gun" is mighty intimidating.
In the state that I live in, concealed carry permits as they are called are quite easy to get, cheap, about $25, and maybe a week or two waiting period and do not require any test, registration or record of the firearm that you wish to carry, you can carry as many and whatever you want. The permit is good for about four years. Now, I worked for the law enforcement agency that you get your permit through for five years before my present agency and I must admit that I have seen permits revoked on the spot...No bull crap, on the spot, one summer day I can recall, at a very busy service station packed with people on a very busy highway, I was filling my gas grille's propane tank in preparation for a barbecue party, coincidentally one of my Sgt's was also there waiting, we're talking and laughing and here some knucklehead pulls up being very mouthy and belligerent, reeking of alcohol, his pistol sticking out of his belt. Well, after a discussing a quick game plan and since supervisor's have radio's in their cars, we called for a marked unit to meet us at this gas station. Well, this Sgt happened to be in charge of the Division that handled carry permits. What a scene ! Guns and propane, a load of innocent civilians. And we're trying to "nicely" take this fellow into custody. Instant revocation...And the guy got charged with public drunk, disorderly conduct and well as violating one, well actually several of the conditions that you agree to when you get a permit. Gun taken on the spot. He'll never carry legally again, although he'll probably carry anyway. Would not have drawn attention if he had kept his mouth shut and his gun covered. So, it does work both ways.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 03/27/03 08:16 PM

Training is the key. When in the service, I carried the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (FN Minimi, to you europe types). No one else wanted it, even though it carried two hundred rounds and could cut down small buildings. They complained that "It just fires one shot, then jams!" Any pro who has fired these things knows where this is going. The 249 has a feed tray cover with a ratchet arm that advances the next round in the belt. Everyon simply opens the tray, loads the belt, closes the tray, and jacks a round into the chamber. all well and good, but the cam on the bolt carrier can only engage the ratchet arm if it is in the OPEN BOLT position when the feed tray cover is closed. Like all idiots everywhere, they forfeited a potential source of power because they couldn't use it right. TRAINING. The key to not being an idiot.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Professional Conflict - 07/08/03 09:57 PM

Pistols I prefer 1911 .45's(result of being raised by an ex-marine).
For Home defense, pump action .12 gauge-psychological factor of sound from action working.

.22's kill because they are light weight, they tend to ricochet off of bone,causing round to pinball around inside of body,especialy head wound.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 07/09/03 07:30 AM

Not truly MA related, but I am in the process of upgrading my Ruger 10/22. I've added a Bushnell scope, am putting finishing touches on a self-made competition style thumbhole stock with adjustable butt and comb, built in bipod, free floating barrel, additional receiver mounting lug, and whatever other touches I can think of. I'm going to purchase a 22-inch Alumalite Match barrel and a Volquartsen trigger/hammer/springs upgrade, all of which will have me driving tacks at 100 yards (not bad for a semi-auto .22). I'll let you know how it comes out.
Posted by: MAGon

Re: Professional Conflict - 07/31/03 08:27 AM

Fellows: My agency was recently absorbed into the new Dept. of Homeland Security. So we're being grandfathered from a regulatory to a LE function. Nothing has changed to date, but it's supposed to pick up speed after this coming Oct. AND YOU GUYS ARE SCARING ME HALF TO DEATH!!!! What the heck have the Fates shoved into my life now: Law suits, the media, worrying about Monday morning quarterbacking from sureveillance videos? Ye gods!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Doughnut

Re: Professional Conflict - 08/30/03 01:43 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
So, whilst I thoroughly enjoy the "harder" jutsu arts, I think it essential that I temper them with less severe styles as well.[/QUOTE]

I aggree with you that we fight as we train. That being said how often do we train in our work uniforms, or train with real force or any of those flying tackels or bites that can be seen at work. For that manner do we spend more time working on the complicated technical parts of our arts or the simple princibles that will save our butts IF we train them into our heads.
I think that though the least ammount of harm to the suspect/ offender is a good goal that a "Jutsu" approch to our "Do" arts is a the best way to help us reach that other goal of going home at night. Humanity towards our fellow man is good, lack of civil litigation is good, but then again so is surviving.

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 08-31-2003).]
Posted by: John Sharpe

Re: Professional Conflict - 12/31/03 04:34 PM

Posted by: Big Bear

Re: Professional Conflict - 01/15/04 06:16 AM

Folks this is going back into the post a bit but i thought it would be good to answer.

I have recently been told i was successful in joining the Police Force of Northern Ireland in which i start my training next month. I personally can't wait. I know that there will be a few (prob a lot more) hairy momments but i really am looking forward to it.

The reason i am posting is because a while back there was a question asked by Ashton i think, about the carrying of fire arms by the police of the uk. I know it isn't common practice in England, but in Northern Ireland it is. (no guesses as to why).

Sorry bringing up a point that was made well over a month ago but as i am sure you can understand, my interest in this part of the forum has increased dramatically as of late.

Cheers and take care,

Big Bear
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 01/15/04 08:56 PM

Big Bear, I'm assuming you were being tongue in cheek as to the reason Irelands police carry guns?
Posted by: Big Bear

Re: Professional Conflict - 01/16/04 01:31 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamoni:
Big Bear, I'm assuming you were being tongue in cheek as to the reason Irelands police carry guns?[/QUOTE]


very much so pal. (If you can't laugh you'd cry-know what i mean?) Even though it could be a lot better over here, it isn't anywhere near as bad as the media portrays it to be to the rest of the world.

My brother now lives in Washington and he says that anytime he sees N.Ireland mentioned on the news is for some mad shooting activity. I know that our sporting achievements are not going to be covered by CNN or anything (probably cos we are crap in most sports !!!Lol) but because our country is known as a terrorist country, sadly, that is all people will ever want to report on.

But it is getting better. Trust me.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Professional Conflict - 01/17/04 12:07 PM

Going back in the thread, MAGon, how has the Homeland security thing been treating you? Have your duties changed much, etc? Just wondering, cause you seemed concerned in your post.