Chopsticks and manners.

Posted by: Kintama

Chopsticks and manners. - 07/29/05 01:59 PM

It's commonly known that the Chinese invented chopsticks (or kuaizi in Chinese, Hashi in Japanese) as a set of instruments to be used when eating but the reason behind that is not commonly known. Actually, the Chinese were taught to use chopsticks long before spoons and forks were invented in Europe (the knife is older, not as an instrument for dining but as weapon). Chopsticks were strongly advocated by the great Chinese philosopher Confucius (551-479BC). Chinese people, under the cultivation of Confucianism, consider the knife and fork bearing sort of violence, like cold weapons. However, chopsticks reflect gentleness and benevolence, the main moral teaching of Confucianism. Therefore, instruments used for killing must be banned from the dining table, and that is why Chinese/Japanese food is always chopped into bite size before it reaches the table.
There are superstitions associated with chopsticks too. If you find an uneven pair at your table setting, it means you are going to miss a boat, plane or train. Dropping chopsticks will inevitably bring bad luck. Crossed chopsticks are, however, permissible in a dim sum restaurant. The waiter will cross them to show that your bill has been settled, or you can do the same to show the waiter that you have finished and are ready to pay the bill.

General bad practice to avoid:
* DO NOT use your chopsticks to shift dishes around.
* DO NOT wave your chopsticks about in the air while trying to decide what to eat next or as gesture during talking.
* DO NOT rummage about in the food looking for the tastiest morsel.
* DO NOT pick up a dish with the hand that is holding the chopsticks.
* DO NOT point your chopsticks at people when you are eating; never lick them or spear food with the points
* DO NOT hold the chopsticks with your fist, since this appears as if they are being held as a weapon.
* DO NOT pass food from your chopsticks to another person's chopsticks. place the food down on a plate to transfer.
* In situations where you are taking from a common food dish or if you are serving someone, serve using the opposite end of the chopsticks. (the end which doesn't touch your mouth.)
Posted by: harlan

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/29/05 02:14 PM

Rather unique posting. Kintama giving an etiquette lesson

If I ever get the chance the even learn how to hold/use chopsticks, I will try to remember these.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/29/05 04:20 PM

I don't think I've ever had anything to brag about on this forum...but I can for this topic. some random things on chopsticks: My proficiency with chopsticks is better than average (in Japan that is). For fun, we had challenges with native chopstick users...one was to eat an apple using chopsticks (no spearing, or resting the apple on anything)-I won that. my prize:I had to buy a round of drinks for the table.
I have extra long chopsticks for cooking and grilling. I'd be lost going back to spatula and fork. My half-Italian best friend adamantly refuses to have dinner with me unless I eat 'properly' with fork and spoon.
I'm a wooden scale model builder during the wintertime and designed and built a mini-crossbow to shoot chopsticks 50 feet. from 20ft away they stick into fairly soft bark on trees. I don't let the kids use this unsupervised of course, but they think it's cooler than 'ell.

on topic: it's considered bad manners to stick chopsticks in trees ...or eat apples with chopsticks for that matter.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/29/05 08:59 PM

A miniature ballista maker huh? The things you learn about people here.

The whole idea of chopsticks is so you don't "shovel" your food. The purpose is to savor the taste and texture of the tasty morsel on the end of the chopsticks.

Another point of etiquette: you shouldn't hold your chopsticks too close to the food end. The further you can hold your chopsticks away from the picking up end the more "cultured and refined" you would appear to be.

And the Mr Miyagi trick, although a highly commendable skill, is definitely a "no-no".
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/30/05 01:08 AM



Just to add a bit more.

If someone holds chopsticks right towards the end opposite the food end, he / she is working far from home. I've tried observing this and to my surprise, a great majority do work far from home.

To use chopsticks of uneven length is bad luck. The Chinese refers, in polite circles, to death as "3 long, 2 short"; which is another way of mentioning a coffin, which, discounting the base part, is made up of 3 long side planks and 2 short end pieces.

Left-handedness was frown upon by the old chinese and being born left-handed, I was forced to use my right hand for chopsticks and pen carrying; everything else, I used my left.

When handing a pair to a guest, always use two hands, with the food-end pointing towards your own right horizontally.

Silver chopsticks were used in order to detect poison, which if present, turns black.

Chopsticks were never put on ancestral-worshipping or any altars.

It is bad Chinese manners to lay them horizontally on the lid of your bowl, because this is what beggars do as they do not eat on tables or at least clean tables and so do not have clean places to lay them while eating.

To the Japanese, sticking them into rice or food and leaving them there is a great no-no, as this is what they do when presenting food to the dead.

If when you first hold a pair and the ends are not even (which often happens), do not tap the food-end on the table to align them; tap them gently on your other palm.

Hold the other open palm just underneath your chin while putting food into your slightly opened mouth with chopsticks is the height of refinement. Watch a beautiful Japanese lady do it and you'll see what I mean.

And finally to test if the temperature of deep-frying oil is right, stick a bamboo chopsitck in, and if lots of little bubbles form around the stick, it is just about right for frying your spring roll.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/30/05 01:13 AM

Quote:

The whole idea of chopsticks is so you don't "shovel" your food. The purpose is to savor the taste and texture of the tasty morsel on the end of the chopsticks.


Thats the common belief...historically, it's a little different.

One of my winter-time hobbies is wood model ship building. My next project is building a scale model of the 'Shinko-Sen'.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/30/05 09:27 AM

That's news to me. What's the historical slant?
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/31/05 09:45 AM

read the opening post...fork/knife were associated with violence - eating should be non-violent.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 07/31/05 10:21 PM

Just curious, where did you get that info from?
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/01/05 08:58 AM

my appologies...I should have credited sources -The history is mostly from an article on www.chinadaily.com and also some of the the bad manners/superstition part. The rest was edited and written by me based on history/mannerisms/beliefs verified from speaking/living with family members and friends in Japan over the years.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/09/05 12:55 AM

Some other "hashi" points (sorry, no pun intended)

When eating w/ friends & family, it's OK to pick up food from a common plate but it's good manners to turn the chop-sticks over & use the end you didn't put in your mouth (the clean end). To eat, just return to correct position.

Girls, they ARE NOT hair ornaments!!! To me, that kind of use looks as silly as a fork in a hair bun.

This drives me NUTS
You don't need to rub your disposable chop-sticks together more than a couple of times. I always see "gaijin" (non-Japanese) rubbing their sticks together as if they were trying to start a fire. There won't be splinters piercing your tongue & lips. If you notice a wayward splinter, just pull it free of the chopstick & keep eating.

Yes Kin...long Chinese cooking hashi are a lot better than wisk, tongs or spatula (except for eggs sunny-side-up & 2" steaks on the grill).
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/20/05 03:56 PM

Tried it. you are 100% correct on the SSU eggs...the 2" steaks were less than elegant but I managed it. a BBQ fork worked better though.

Hedkikr or anyone: Have you ever seen metal Hashi for cooking? is there even such a thing? or would that be blasphemous in some way? Seems I could do a lot more with stronger chops.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/20/05 04:16 PM

Methinks holding a metal stick into a frying pan would not be the smartest idea...unless of course you wanted them melted to your skin permanently.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/20/05 04:38 PM

hehe...ok in that case I'll be more specific, metal-TIPPED hashi.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/22/05 04:28 PM

The metal hashi (about a foot long if memory serves) were for arranging charcoal in a hibachi. The part you hold was wrapped in thin cotton cord to prevent burning.

Hope this helps.
Posted by: Paranormalma

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/22/05 10:24 PM

I know it's a little off topic, but you don't need to touch SSU eggs with anything really. Once you're ready to solidify the top of the egg, you don't have to flip it. Just make sure you're using a pan that has a lid. Add a little water and cover the pan, the water should evaporate in under a minute, and the steam will have cooked the top of the egg. Best eggs I've ever had have been made that way...you never break the yolk

Anyway, sorry...I've never even eaten with chopsticks
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/23/05 02:06 PM

whoa...I found Cooking Skewer Chopsticks.
http://www.ichizen.com/chopsticks/images/cstixsf013.gif
seems like there should be Kobudo kata for these!
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/24/05 02:14 AM

Yeah...

Those are a modern version of what my Ojiisan used to use! I must invent a kata for them.

BTW: What are they called?
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/24/05 07:02 PM

most people who watch tv will know about the carling advert where some guys are eating chinese food and their hashi have a little knife and a little fork on the end lol.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/25/05 11:03 AM

Ahh...sharp, pointy instruments of death. Now, my sister just came back from Japan...why couldn't she have given me those skewers instead of Otedama?

(harlan starts tossing otedama at desk...wondering if there are martial applications...)
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/25/05 03:21 PM

I think they are called "Kanagushi" ...but I'll ask next time I call Japan.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/26/05 12:44 PM

Kintama,

Metal chopsticks....hooboy, many of the fancier Korean chopsticks are metal...and they are thinner and more oblong than the Japanese variety. Boy, I hate those metal chopsticks...and I've been using them since I was a kid. Bleh!
Posted by: JayJay

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/28/05 12:10 PM

Very good points. Important for older people I think, but young people here (even as old as 50) dont really care that much as long as you aren't gross. Actaully many young Japanese are pretty lacking (ok Im genralizing) in the manners department these days.

I was eating Yakiniku with Japanese friends today and we were all using the same chopsticks to eat and put food in the BBQ, not an issue. I was shocked how relaxed the Japanese (I dont know anything about other asian cultures) are about ettique. Studying Japanese and their culture I was expecting them to be far more stiff about politeness but they're not really that bad.

Its so cute (or patronizing) though when I sat at the table at the resturant today and the waitress runs off and comes back holding a folk for me.

I'm like.
"Ahhhhh, thanks. Chopsticks are fine"

I've been living in Japan for almost 3 years now and I still get Japanese clap when I use chopsticks.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/31/05 04:08 PM

Quote:

I've been living in Japan for almost 3 years now and I still get Japanese clap when I use chopsticks.




Japanese clap from using chopsticks huh? wow. you need to make sure you know where your chopsticks have been before you pick them up now I guess. BuDoc might be able to suggest something if you are well before the frothing stage.
good luck.
Posted by: schanne

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 08/31/05 04:24 PM

There is a sushi bar that we eat at often, once while eating a bowl of rice I got up to do something and stuck my hashi in the rice, they were there for the owner and his wife in plain view. When I returned she pulled me aside and explained that when someone dies in Japan they set a place in honor of them at the table and stick the hashi in the bowl of rice as I did, hey I didn't know?
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 09/01/05 09:03 AM

that's correct. I made the same mistake before.
Posted by: Tripitaka of AA

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 09/03/05 09:14 AM

Here's a bit from personal experience (I get to post it at least once on every forum );

At a Japanese funeral service/cremation, the hashi have a special purpose and this is why you don't see people passing food from one set of hashi to another.

The Deceased is placed in an all-wooden coffin which is passed into the oven for cremation. The family then repair to an ante-room where they partake of drinks and snacks for... half an hour or so. Then everyone returns to tke part in a highly symbolic moment. The remains in a Japanese cremation are not reduced to the white powdery ash that you see in a Western urn. The family gather around a table where the ash and bone fragments are to be picked up and placed into a small wooden box (about 1 cubic foot). The people form pairs who pick up a fragment between them and place it in the box. Some bones survive cremation better than others, the largest vertebrae is particularly important apparently, there are enough for even a large congregation. All the bones are collected and the ash as well (IIRC). This box is then carried by one of the closest family members for the subsequent rituals.

This is the only time two people are allowed to pick something up with hashi together.

I've seen this in Japan. I don't know if it is a tradition from China or not.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 09/05/05 10:33 PM



Yes, we did that for our father; but we scatter his bones in the ocean, because he loved the sea and fishing.
Posted by: PierrePressure

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 10/17/05 12:59 AM

I've also heard that it's considered rude to point your hashi directly upwards. Something about it signifying death or something?

Also, does anyone know where to set your hashi down once you've finished eating? I was struggling with this when I went to an authentic Chinese restaraunt recently.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 10/17/05 04:27 AM

Quote:

I've also heard that it's considered rude to point your hashi directly upwards. Something about it signifying death or something?

Also, does anyone know where to set your hashi down once you've finished eating? I was struggling with this when I went to an authentic Chinese restaraunt recently.





That 'authentic' Chinese restaurent could not have been 'classy', otherwise a chopstick holder, a small 'pillow-like' stand would be provided on the right side of your bowl.

If none is provided, just lay it on the table next to the bowl or plate; however in familiar company (at home) it is alright to lay it on the rim of the bowl or plate or use the spoon as a holder.

About pointing it upwards, it applies to all "dirty" things; not just chopsticks; especially brooms. The sky is where the gods live and it would be considered disrespctful to point 'dirty' things at them.

The death part comes from it signifying joss-sticks used for praying in the temples and cemetaries.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/01/05 08:30 AM

Thread edited by harlan.

Please stay on topic.
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/01/05 09:26 AM

Quote:

Thread edited by harlan.

Please stay on topic.




????????????????????
Posted by: aikidoka1159

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/01/05 09:34 AM

maybe it was just a friendly reminder?

anyways, are most hashi disposable or are there just as many permanent house-hold hashi like how we have knives and forks?
along the same lines: i wonder if there are any plastic hashi?
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/01/05 09:53 AM

I got to read you post kusojiji before it was removed...if you don't mind, I'll frame it so it is on topic:

Q: "Is it considered bad manners to brag about being 'better than average' with chopstick proficiency?"
Answer: Only if you do so without a sense of humor about it.
----
Yes, there are plastic hashi. also there are 'training' hashi for kids, thay have a hinge between the two making it much easier for little hands to manage.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/01/05 09:55 AM

Quote:

also there are 'training' hashi for kids, thay have a hinge between the two making it much easier for little hands to manage.




Aww, that's so cute.
Posted by: harlan

Training hashi? - 11/01/05 09:57 AM

Where can I get those? Is it bad manners to show up an expensive restaurant with your own pair of 'training hashi'? Gives new meaning to the term 'ugly American'.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Training hashi? - 11/01/05 10:16 AM

http://www.leapsandboundscatalog.com/images/product/family/10570-v.jpg

'braces' might be better for you (I've never tried them).
http://easteasyusa.com/
Posted by: kusojiji

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/01/05 11:25 AM

Quote:

I got to read you post kusojiji before it was removed...if you don't mind, I'll frame it so it is on topic:

Q: "Is it considered bad manners to brag about being 'better than average' with chopstick proficiency?"





Actually, there was no question involved. Just an observation. One that I didn't think was offensive or off-topic. Who knew?
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/17/05 02:43 AM

There are actually some expensive gift-quality hashi in fine wooden cases sold in any good store in Japan.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/17/05 09:39 AM

I always forget to buy the really nice gift Hashi like you mention...I end up buying bulk at a gift-shop in the airport. lol (hey...doesn't mean I don't like you if you ever get one of these. just means I'm a lazy shopper. )
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Chopsticks and manners. - 11/21/05 12:57 AM

Quote:

I always forget to buy the really nice gift Hashi like you mention...I end up buying bulk at a gift-shop in the airport. lol (hey...doesn't mean I don't like you if you ever get one of these. just means I'm a lazy shopper. )




At least now I know where they came from.
Posted by: RangerG

Re: Training hashi? - 12/10/05 09:44 AM

Quote:

Where can I get those? Is it bad manners to show up an expensive restaurant with your own pair of 'training hashi'? Gives new meaning to the term 'ugly American'.




Oooo I need a pair too! When I try and use hashi it looks like I am in hand to hand combat with a large spider...
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: Training hashi? - 12/10/05 08:05 PM

has anyone seeen the 'chopstick bowls' were there are two holes on one side and two indents on the oopposite for hashi to be 'held' in the bowl instead of resting on top of the rim when finished? i saw them at candem market (famous market in london, slightly more famous for its illegal goods than its legal ones) a couple of months ago and just remembered them.
Posted by: RangerG

Re: Training hashi? - 12/10/05 11:34 PM

Two holes and two indents....sounds like my head... I have not seen these. Are they traditional or a modern adaptation?
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Training hashi? - 12/10/05 11:47 PM

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: Training hashi? - 12/11/05 10:15 AM

thats the bisquit. thanks joel
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Training hashi? - 03/08/08 03:19 PM

I was told by a friend from China that the best way to become properly proficient in the use of chopsticks is to practice in your own time by trying to pick up marbles out of a bucket of water. Not the most polite thing to do, but practical for improving technique...
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Training hashi? - 03/11/08 02:00 AM

I practiced with picking up grapes. little bit easier to learn.

here's a good page for learning as well: http://www.robsworld.org/chopsticks.html
Posted by: KickingAngel16

Re: Training hashi? - 08/24/08 07:01 AM

When I first learned, I just ate with chopsticks whenever I could. I love using them now. Let's just say that, when I was finally able to go to Japan as a student ambassador, I surprised my homestay at how well I could use them. They gave me so many compliments and I was shocked that they were so impressed. It's kind of annoying to take to school though. Everyone asks me why I eat with chopsticks and I can't eat in peace during my 20 minute lunch. I wanted to learn in the fist place because I was influence by my Chinese aunt and cousins. My uncle married a woman from Hong Kong who had children already.