paralizing pp's

so are there any pressure points that can paralize you for a short period of time?

Yes

Thanks meijin but could you specify like which body part only because I know of one but I would like to know more.

Yes, please. Specify a body part, how hard it must be struck and the exact effect.

Try the back like the spinal cord and iz there any in your chest and if so where at and how hard must it be struck?

An elbow to the base of the neck can sometimes paralyze, but it's low percentage, and basically no percentage if you can't clinch. It's never happened in an NHB match, though it's occasionally happened in muay thai. The elbow must be HARD. There is nothing mystical about it, you are simply striking the spine with a lot of force.

A body blow can occasionally lead to a KO but again it must be a lot of force.

There are no points on the human body that can paralyze a strong man when struck lightly, poked, rubbed, etc.

For our friend Hedgehogey's sake (primarily so he will not get his gi pants in a wad and cut off blood flow), I will choose a location that has both a Modern Western Medical (MWM) and Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM or Zhongyixue in Chinese) approach. <grin!>

Look to the Axilla, Axillary Fossa or Axillary Cavity...also known as the armpit. From the TCM paradign, we would be speaking of the HT-1 (Heart 1) point called Jiquan (Summit Spring).

At this location, we are dealing with the upper roots of the brachial plexus. In this area, the brachial plexus exits the neck, goes over the first rib and under the clavicle. It then traverses under the corcoid process and inserts into pectoralis minor and then onto the axilla and then on down the arm (for those of you that do not know or don't have a copy of Gray's Anatomy handy, the brachial plexus (and here we are talking of including the C-8 and T-1 nerve roots) is a part of the Sympathetic Nervous System and is a network of motor and sensory nerves which innervate the hand, the arm, the shoulder and upper chest girdle. Local anatomy includes the subclavian artery and vein, the axillary artery, etc.

In this particular case, the trapezius and levator scapulae muscles protect from unwanted compression of the brachial plexus by the clavicle as it goes over the first rib. This is important. When watching sports, you have heard of them refer to a "stinger", right? That is what this unwanted compression is. when you see a hockey player get checked into the boards or a football running back hit the line with a lowered shoulder and head (or up ended and landing on the shoulder), this creates the unwanted compression and hence the stinger. This also brings up the use of terms...is this a point that lays someone out stiff as a board and unable to move? No. Are they paralyzed? To me yes...look at the guy with the stinger in the example above. For all practical purposes, he is paralyzed. He can do nothing. It is like saying that "if it don't work, it is broken". In the strictest technical sense does it really matter if an elbow is dislocated or the arm is broken? Are the short term immediate results pretty much the same?

To attack this point, use something like Nakadakaken (Nakadaka Ipponken), Keikoken, Nihon Nukite, Ippon Nukite, Boshiken or even Koken. I am not a fan of Koken as it provides for a much larger striking surface or area of target impact, but when delivered with Te no Omoi, proper Kiryoku and the resulting Chiru Nu Chan Chan...then it will surely have the desired result.

That help any at all with the original question?

[This message has been edited by meijin (edited 02-17-2005).]

Meijin - very good example, very well said.

Thanks a bunch, I owe u one.

So in what manner would you strike the armpit and with what degree of force?

Hedgehogey:

I am sorry you missed the last paragraph of my post where I covered that. Here it is again:

"To attack this point, use something like Nakadakaken (Nakadaka Ipponken), Keikoken, Nihon Nukite, Ippon Nukite, Boshiken or even Koken. I am not a fan of Koken as it provides for a much larger striking surface or area of target impact, but when delivered with Te no Omoi, proper Kiryoku and the resulting Chiru Nu Chan Chan...then it will surely have the desired result."

Sorry for the confusion.

Michael

Very nice!

excellent analysis. I also like how you giveth, and then in the last paragraph taketh away.

I generally approach pp's from a western medicine point of view. It's the training. is your background western med or eastern med or are you just extremely well independently studied?

Either way, solid work.

Page

Page:

Thanks...I think....

You said:
"excellent analysis. I also like how you giveth, and then in the last paragraph taketh away."

I am sorry to say that you lost me there...I am not sure what you mean.

My background is in Chinese Medicine as far as my approach to vital/pressure points. However, as I have tried to make clear to folks in the past, to truly understand the TCM approach, the majority of what you find in Western Medicine is there as well...just with an additional level of information in which to digest the paradigm. So, that has resulted in a huge reference library and no life.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Thank you for your comments. I am glad that they were of some help and/or interest.

Michael

Page:

I just saw in your bio that you are a doctor. Very nice. I am glad I did not make any stupid mistakes in my analysis of the MWM part. I am sure I would have heard about it.

Let me ask you a question in relation to the arm pit strike. "Urban myth" (my naming it that) has it that a hard enough strike to this target can cause the heart to stop. From a TCM point of view, I can "sort of" see this as a possibility. However, from the MWM side I cannot. Do you see this as a possibility? If so, could you break it down to me? Also, do you think this might be more of a possibility if it were done to the left side as opposed to the right?

Thanks Page...I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

Michael

ps - Are you a GP or have you specialized in a particular area?

All i'm familiar with is Ippon Nukite, and for those who don't know, ippon nukite is a POKE WITH THE FOREFINGER.

And frankly, if the most practical pressure point application you can find is poking me in the armpit with your finger, then you basically just threw the fight right there.

Michael,

I thought for a few minutes on the "urban myth" you mention. While it might be possible to stop the heart with a blow to the right axillary space, it is not probable.

Most cases (you hear of a few on the news every year) of children or adults having heart stoppage as a result of blunt force trauma to the thorax, occur from taking the force "dead center". If the trauma occurs in the fraction of a second during the QRS wave, the heart can stop.

As far as a strike to either axillary space, either one can be potentially deadly. Extreme cases have circumscribed detachment of the anterior coronary arteries usually combined with lacerations of vessel wall layers.

Other potential deadly side effects are:
Tension pneumothoracis,Hemothoracis, ruptured tracheobronchial tree, ruptured thoracic aorta, myocardial tearing, cardiac tamponade, pulmonary contusions. These are a few. I'm sure a medline search would reveal others.

So, the short answer is, I don't really see stopping an opponents heart with an axillary strike. But what the hell, you might kill him anyway.

Hedghogey: If you think that an opponent who uses ippon nukite to the axilla is throwing the fight, I would suggest that you have never seen one done properly. Even when done lighty, an experienced practitioner will give you far more than a tickle.

Lastly Michael to answer your other question. I'm Board Certified in Emergency Medicine, Tropical Medicine(Infectious Disease) and Public Health.

I am fascinated by TCM and would one day like to try to incorporate it into Western Medicine. I will look forward to sharing information with you in the future, and learning from your unique perspective.

Page

[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:
Hedgehogey:

I am sorry you missed the last paragraph of my post where I covered that. Here it is again:

"To attack this point, use something like Nakadakaken (Nakadaka Ipponken), Keikoken, Nihon Nukite, Ippon Nukite, Boshiken or even Koken. I am not a fan of Koken as it provides for a much larger striking surface or area of target impact, but when delivered with Te no Omoi, proper Kiryoku and the resulting Chiru Nu Chan Chan...then it will surely have the desired result."

Sorry for the confusion.

Michael[/QUOTE]

Very impressive stuff! Can i ask where you learned that (besides medicine) and what style you train in?

Hello, people, this is a poke to the armpit! Poke to the armpit! It's ridiculous! It's on the level of a diving headbutt between someone's ass cheeks!

Hedgehogey:

Your ignorance of the topic at hand just does not cease to amaze me.

First of all, a nukite strike of any type is just that...a strike. It is not a "poke" with a finger or anything else.

Besides me words, which you certainly do not have to believe in any way, shape or form, you now have the comments of a licensed physician that happens to also be a martial artist. They confirm what I have to say. Yet, you wish to keep your mind closed and make stupid comments. Where is your contribution on anything to do with the topic at hand? Or anything in this forum?

Michael

To Kempoman and laf:

Hedgehogey said:
"Hello, people, this is a poke to the armpit! Poke to the armpit! It's ridiculous! It's on the level of a diving headbutt between someone's ass cheeks!"

Come on guys...is this the type of discourse we are looking for here? I don't mind someone stating their disagreement with what someone else on the forum has to say...even if they are going to disagree with me. However, it is not too much to ask that someone present some sort of reasonably logical arguement to rebut what is said. Where is this being done? It would seem that the only purpose that this indivdual has is to try and tear down what others have to say with no arguement to present other than to disagree and make ignorant comments. I have done a search for all of the posts belonging to this person and can find next to nothing where they have added anything constructive to any discussion. Speaking for myself personally, I'd like to know how your guidelines affect this type of behavior. Just ignore him totally for the total waste of time that he has proven himself to be or are there options?

Thanks,

Michael

Masterful:

I have a background in Japanese, Okinawan, Chinese, Korean and Filipino martial arts over the last quater of a century or so. My primary area of interest or study is in the version of Ryukyu Kempo in which I have a Renshi teaching license.

The last decade or so, my studies have taken a major turn into the use and function of vital points. I have spent a large amount of money building a large reference library that contains texts on Chinese medicine as well as numerous complimentary subjects in Western medicine. I seek out professionals in the fields to learn from...some even serving as mentors. I tend to take a disbelieving attitude toward anything told to me (by whomever says it) and research it to the point where I can either prove it or disprove it myself.

Hope that helps and sorry that it is such a short response. I am working in Fl right now and am really beat. I can follow up on anything you'd like after my return home tomorrow.

Michael

Do I really need to spell out why poking (and yes, that is what nukite is, because noone's extended forefinger can stand up to truly hard striking) is impractical?

That's funny, I've done karate for 11.5 years and I thought it was a one knuckle strike [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

Me too? But I'm sloooowww.....:0

Give the kid a break, I think Hedgehogey is right.

Ippon nukite is a 1 finger strike (or a "poke" if you like). Nihon nukite, obviously 2-finger strike. You guys are thinking ippon ken which is one knuckle extended.

c/f http://gojuryu.net/strikes.htm
"Nukite is the sharp strike of the fingers extended into the soft body parts of your opponent"... sounds like a poke to me.

In jujitsu, we do a double shihon (yonhon) nukite strike to H1 from a front double handed choke. In training practice, it actually is more of a poke than a strike... of course [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Hey man, I just call it what it is. I'm not into using foreign lingo because I'm slow...and lazy... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] All these big funny spelled words just confuse the masses. I don't want to impress anyone with my knowledge,cause I couldn't,but I know what works for me. English.
All American Goju Karate

Oops, my bad, shihon nukite = 4 finger/spear hand)... Yes, I agree Sanchin31, english would be preferable, but having to search for the translations is good in a way, coz I get to find new things along the way.... I like to call it "serendipidous information gathering"...coz I'm just plain lazy to do research....my excuse is I'm er.."busy".. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

And just as long as you, my friend, don't end up FAT and lazy, that's OK. Slow and lazy is OK, FAT, slow AND lazy is bad.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hedgehogey:
Do I really need to spell out why poking (and yes, that is what nukite is, because noone's extended forefinger can stand up to truly hard striking) is impractical?[/QUOTE]

1) conditioning. The fingers can take quite alot when properly toughened, and thoug Im no expert I would imagine that with the smaller striking area magnifying the impact pressure would not a lower amount of thrust be required??

Also, Meijin + Budoc, you recomended striking, could similar effects occur from sustained pressure, i.e. pressing into the specified area??

2) Ipon Nukite was only one method suggested, personally Im too lazy to condition my fingers, so I would use the Nakadakaken, Meijin's first choice if I remember right. This is a middle finger single knuckle strike.

3) If your worried about how to expose the armpit, practice, its not that hard.

4) Im a PP sceptic as well, but when a qualified doctor tells me something can kill me, I tend to listen. That seems the inteligent thing to do...

) Im a PP sceptic as well, but when a qualified doctor tells me something can kill me, I tend to listen. That seems the inteligent thing to do...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] That's better than prove it!

If my memory serves me correctly, "multiversed" is a med student. He beleives in PP's.

My old doctor was a recognised accupuncturist. He was a very good doctor with some very high and varied degrees in western medicine.

So then it is down to be applicable. Simply, it is another tool, like all fighting weapons, has appropriate times and paticular methods which are more effective in some situations, and some easy and effective applications in one on one sparring (mutual combat).

Quote by Hedgehogey:

[QUOTE]Hello, people, this is a poke to the armpit! Poke to the armpit! It's ridiculous! It's on the level of a diving headbutt between someone's ass cheeks![/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG]

I guess your only hope is to eat some REALLY spicy food to counter that PP attack!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

First of all, any variance of a nukite is a STRIKE...not a POKE. Period. End of story. You can argue all you want, but that does not change the facts.

As to the strike being effective...I can break a 1" pine board with a variety of different nukite strikes...including the single finger variety. So...which do you think is tougher? The point in the arm pit or a 1" pine board?

Additionally, if any of you who are doubting the effectiveness of the nukite types of strikes had any level of skill in the arts that utilize it, then you would know that the extended fingers are not always necessarily what you are using to do the damage. Yet again we encounter a case where people are shooting off their mouths without any ammo (knowledge of what they are talking about) to back it up.

Lastly, there is a reason why I use the terms that I do. Because they mean something. If I were to mention the kua to a student of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan or Baguazhang, then they know exactly what I am talking about. However, if I simply refer to it as the pelvic crease, it looses alot of that particular meaning. Alot is lost in the translation and alot of misinformation is then passed on. One only need to look to the improperly translated tsuki (zuki) as being a punch. And uke as being a block. It is wrong and it is misinformation.

Michael

[QUOTE]
I guess your only hope is to eat some REALLY spicy food to counter that PP attack!! [/QUOTE]

Or be the goatse man.

[QUOTE]
As to the strike being effective...I can break a 1" pine board with a variety of different nukite strikes...including the single finger variety. So...which do you think is tougher? The point in the arm pit or a 1" pine board?[/QUOTE]

Do you really expect me to explain to you the complete irrelevance of breaking pine boards to actual fighting?

[QUOTE] One only need to look to the improperly translated tsuki (zuki) as being a punch. And uke as being a block. It is wrong and it is misinformation.[/QUOTE]

Are those not punches and blocks? It's not like giving something a japanese name makes it more effective, nor is something more effective because it's from asia (shock!).

[QUOTE]
Additionally, if any of you who are doubting the effectiveness of the nukite types of strikes had any level of skill in the arts that utilize it, then you would know that the extended fingers are not always necessarily what you are using to do the damage. [/QUOTE]

"Anyone who criticizes our practices simply hasn't mastered the one fingered ass poke technique!". Nice unfalsifiable, ad hominem, psuedo-argument there.

Goatse. Why did you mention goatse? Dear God, why?

Actually, the argument isn't weak, it's true. Some people can't punch properly, but find they are good at aikido. Some poeple can't grapple and change from judo to boxing. All think the art they were terrible at is useless.

They are all wrong.

Poke/strike...hmmmm. I think it's just semantics.

No offense Michael, but in the words of one of my sensei, if you can break a 1" pine board with one finger, then more power to you. (PS: if I need someone to demonstrate a one-finger board break, I'll know who to ask - if u don't mind of course! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] )

Personally, I couldn't be bothered to condition my fingers to that extent (I still like to play the guitar every now and then, and need the feeling in my fingers for that). [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

After all, finger strikes (or "pokes" so Hedgehogey don't get all upset), are usually to soft targets, so I don't think finger conditioning is necessary.

eyrie:

Actually, I have had no ill effects at all from the iron palm training that I did. It came from the lineage of Ku Yu Cheong (Gu Ru Zhang) and is not at all like hitting a makiwara or the like. It emphasizes four main strikes (zhang, zhang bei, pi and hu zhua), but the fingers become quite strong as well. It is a gradual internal method with heavy use of dit da jow. So, there is no real damage to the hand or fingers if done correctly.

Now...as to the Arnis training that I did, that has caused some problems with the fingers due to less skilled training partners!

You are correct though that a nukite type of strike is generally done to a soft target...or at least softer targets. For instance, one would not do a nukite to someone's skull. But, a nukite is not a poke. It is a strike. It is called a spearhand for a reason.

Michael

Hi there!
Just a word about this famed ippon nukite strike... I am not trained at all in it, my art makes no use of such technique so I'm not really conditioned. Still, I regularly do some fingertip-pressups just to strengthen my fingers and to add to the span of the move at the same time. The best I ever managed was two fingers, but it's way too hard for me to be freely usable. I usually use four (thumbs and forefingers) or six (idem plus midllefingers). One day, I was just curious of the pressure involved and calculated it (using the four-fingered pressup as my base). I have a few notions in ballistics since I shoot too. And the result amazed me: I theoreticly exert enough pressure per square-centimeter to stab through the soft parts of a human body! (aproximately one third of the force required to pierce or break the long bones, and one sixth of the force exerted by a standard 22LR bullet). It wouldn't be doable in combat at all, because my gap between the pressure being not sufficient to pierce muscle and the pressure being too much for my finger to resist the impact is very tight, and I would need to tune the power extremely finely otherwise I would either inflict no damage or break my finger - too risky and definitely impractical. But as I said, I am not trained AT ALL in such strikes! So imagine what someone who's experienced in the use of his finger as a weapon can do!

Michael,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but as far as I'm concerned, strike/poke is really just semantics - i.e. a really hard "poke" is a strike - yes? Or is there a really glaring difference?

I am familiar with Iron (Sand) Palm, but really couldn't be bothered with it. Yes, I have no doubt if practiced properly, it is quite formidable.

But I still reckon that the average MAist doesn't need to condition their hands to that extreme. Would you not agree that soft targets are generally susceptible to any sort of blunt force trauma?

But heck, if you can strike thru a soft target on the body and actually pierce it (like a 1" pine board), then more power to you.

My feeling is that such an extreme response would surely be quite unnecessary. Surely the shock of such a strike to affect the sympathetic nervous system would be sufficient to cause motor dysfunction or shutdown?

Wow, you guys have developed some rather strange and esoteric theories in regards to fighting.

Again, why don't we see NHB athletes using this lethal armpit po...err, "strike"? Perhaps because it's COMPLETELY IMPRACTICAL?

It maybe. But think of the clich, people changing position for a take down and evading a grab to be kneed?

But also, the UFC doesn't relate to any self defense situation I can think of.

Just as a side note to stop symantics

POKE

v., poked, pok·ing, pokes.

v.tr.
To push or jab at, as with a finger or an arm; prod.

STRIKE

v., struck (strŭk), struck or strick·en (strĭk'ən), strik·ing, strikes.

v.tr.

To hit sharply, as with the hand, the fist, or a weapon.
To inflict (a blow).


[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

OK, fair enough. I recant. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] There is a big enough difference.

But kids, please make sure you "poke" or "push" pp's in practice, and only "strike" if you really have to. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hedgehogey:
Wow, you guys have developed some rather strange and esoteric theories in regards to fighting.

Again, why don't we see NHB athletes using this lethal armpit po...err, "strike"? Perhaps because it's COMPLETELY IMPRACTICAL?[/QUOTE]

I don't follow NHB, but my understanding of it is that everyone who participates is brainwashed into training in one particular way (boxing or some variation plus BJJ or some variation) and think that all other methods are useless. I have never heard of anyone with genuine seniority in a TMA participate in MMA, and even those I have heard of, I've never heard of anyone fighting stylisticly.

Plus look at all the study and research Meijin has done to gain an accurate working knowledge of these techniques. Most MMA types look like books scare them [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] (jk). But of all the people who've posted on this thread only a very few seem to have a strong knowledge of PP's, and I imagine they have better things to do with their time than enter MMA tourneys.

Hedgehogy it sounds as though you are only trying to rubbish an idea regardless of the facts. The finger strike is only one possible method of hitting, you've focussed on it because it seems to be the least safe method, even though you're well aware that ippon ken (as well as some others) are just as viable.

Are there any other reasons you think such a technique (which Im sure is only one of a number of possible techniques) is impractical. I mean I'm sure your not saying you couldnt find a way to expose an armpit while your making love to your opponent on the floor [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:
For our friend Hedgehogey's sake (primarily so he will not get his gi pants in a wad and cut off blood flow), I will choose a location that has both a Modern Western Medical (MWM) and Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM or Zhongyixue in Chinese) approach. <grin!>

Look to the Axilla, Axillary Fossa or Axillary Cavity...also known as the armpit. From the TCM paradign, we would be speaking of the HT-1 (Heart 1) point called Jiquan (Summit Spring).

At this location, we are dealing with the upper roots of the brachial plexus. In this area, the brachial plexus exits the neck, goes over the first rib and under the clavicle. It then traverses under the corcoid process and inserts into pectoralis minor and then onto the axilla and then on down the arm (for those of you that do not know or don't have a copy of Gray's Anatomy handy, the brachial plexus (and here we are talking of including the C-8 and T-1 nerve roots) is a part of the Sympathetic Nervous System and is a network of motor and sensory nerves which innervate the hand, the arm, the shoulder and upper chest girdle. Local anatomy includes the subclavian artery and vein, the axillary artery, etc.

In this particular case, the trapezius and levator scapulae muscles protect from unwanted compression of the brachial plexus by the clavicle as it goes over the first rib. This is important. When watching sports, you have heard of them refer to a "stinger", right? That is what this unwanted compression is. when you see a hockey player get checked into the boards or a football running back hit the line with a lowered shoulder and head (or up ended and landing on the shoulder), this creates the unwanted compression and hence the stinger. This also brings up the use of terms...is this a point that lays someone out stiff as a board and unable to move? No. Are they paralyzed? To me yes...look at the guy with the stinger in the example above. For all practical purposes, he is paralyzed. He can do nothing. It is like saying that "if it don't work, it is broken". In the strictest technical sense does it really matter if an elbow is dislocated or the arm is broken? Are the short term immediate results pretty much the same?

To attack this point, use something like Nakadakaken (Nakadaka Ipponken), Keikoken, Nihon Nukite, Ippon Nukite, Boshiken or even Koken. I am not a fan of Koken as it provides for a much larger striking surface or area of target impact, but when delivered with Te no Omoi, proper Kiryoku and the resulting Chiru Nu Chan Chan...then it will surely have the desired result.

That help any at all with the original question?

[This message has been edited by meijin (edited 02-17-2005).][/QUOTE]

Look, i just want to know wat the h3ll u guys r talkin about. i dont know much japanese or chinese, only what little i have learned in Okinawa Shorin Ru, and didnt understand a word u just said.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:
eyrie:

Actually, I have had no ill effects at all from the iron palm training that I did. It came from the lineage of Ku Yu Cheong (Gu Ru Zhang) and is not at all like hitting a makiwara or the like. It emphasizes four main strikes (zhang, zhang bei, pi and hu zhua), but the fingers become quite strong as well. It is a gradual internal method with heavy use of dit da jow. So, there is no real damage to the hand or fingers if done correctly.

Now...as to the Arnis training that I did, that has caused some problems with the fingers due to less skilled training partners!

You are correct though that a nukite type of strike is generally done to a soft target...or at least softer targets. For instance, one would not do a nukite to someone's skull. But, a nukite is not a poke. It is a strike. It is called a spearhand for a reason.

Michael[/QUOTE]

Did you do that training before or after you "claimed" you were a SEAL?



[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 03-02-2005).]

Just thought I'd side with meijin on this one. He is correct. It is not a "poke." It is a strike, and, with MUCH practice, can transform into a painful move. However, moves are never "ineffective", it is simply the user of the move. A punch from me, a moderate MA, is nothing compared to my Master. That is because I am not as well learned as him, not because the move is "ineffective." Just thought I'd point out that saying a move is "ineffective" is as ridiculous as saying Judo is less effective that Tae Kwon Do, or Aikido is less effective that Ninjutsu. Each art is good in it's respective ways. Heck, there are some street fighters whose only "technique" is a hard right to the nose, but it can be more effective that an MA's Roundhouse Backick (or whatever move you prefer, I simply prefer TKD, since I study it.) I guess to some up my point, MOVES AREN'T STUPID IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO USE EM!

This old blame-the-victim BS has been used by MA "masters" to stifle independent thought for decades.

The fact is, certain arts and techniques **** . SCARS sucks. For the purpose of fighting, jumping spinning kicks **** . These are proven facts.

If, after months of training, the average person cannot put your techniques into practice on someone hitting back, your art is worth about as much as Dr. Laura's advice on sexuality (nothing).

I was simply stating my beliefs. You are entitled to yours, but I ask you to refrain from using so much ill language in the future. I am sorry if I have offended you.

Hedgehogey,

I'm going to ask you again since you chose to ignore me the last time. What ACTUAL EXPERIENCE do YOU have with pressure points?
http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000147.html

This is the last time i'm going to say this. If all your going to do is cry BS move on.