REPOST from SELF DEFENSE/STREET COMBAT forum

After being subjected to PP striking (and after looking into primary first aid), I can attest it is nothing more than overloading the nerves of the body to cause pain, disrupt the central nervous system, shock and thus KO. Any blood related injury, vomiting etc is merely caused by the above confusion, overloading or freezing of nerves, leading to the veins being unable to pump blood by the motion of surrounding muscle back to the heart, and thus to the brain etc....thus we get blood clots and shock.. This is the best I can explain it with modern western medicine. The Chi theory is crap, but within the context, it works to deliver results re: knockouts and pain releif.

I can tell you it is real, I am not a willing uke. Yes, some people are less supsectible to pain compliance tech, but the (real) KO's work 100%

I don't expect a no touch KO or Yogic flying soon though.

As for the weird crap in Chinese medicine, sure enough, Rhino Horn is nothing more than quackery, but some of the better herbal stuff like a ground up ant's nest is merely acrude way of geting methanoic acid as a sterilising agent/antistringent.

I am glad that your observations have led you to this point. However, I would have to disagree with you. While the role of nerves does come into play in the use of vital/pressure points, that is not all that they are. I base this on a decade worth of study into the object that entails training in them (from the combative side), being an uke at more seminars, classes and demonstrations than I can count and training in Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) as well.

Again...while nerves can and do come into play, there is way more out there that is capable of being done than simple nerve manipulation can possible begin to explain.

Please elaborate. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

OK...are you familiar with the location of the points called LI_10 and LI-11 (Large Intestine 10 and 11) on the forearm? You can probably look those up pretty easily.

Please explain to me, from the perspective of nerves and their manipulation/exploitation the following:

#1. How can a light strike to this location cause a KO?

#2. Why is it that a light strike can cause the legs to shed?

#3. Why is it with this strike the opposite side hand "flys away"?

You give me the "nerve answer(s)" and I will give you the TCM answers...and if you answer a couple of these the way I think you are going to, I will go into the nerves, their location and how your answer fits into the big picture.

Fair enough?

Thanks for the response!

Granted it is incomplete as an explanation.

But in itself, nervous shock can cause death. I think the shutdown of muscular proulsion of veinous blood is a good explanation.

There is a lot fo weird stuff that goes on, that has a TCM explanation which only makes sense in context. For example, you are not made out of wood, metal, fire, water or earth.

This why I want a medical explanation - it simply makes more sense.

As for proving qi is bioelectric I doubt it. I have always thought it to be something in context. For example, the ki in Aikido is simply how you use momentum. Only in a strictly technical sense of biomechanic muscle contraction is the attacker's movements , qi! I think that weakening somone's vital functions would affect their bioelectic output, so it would be hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect.

So what is going on?

Anecdote: I was playing Rugby League one lunchtime in Senior Highschool. I copped a hard tackle and the opponent impacted onto my floating ribs, and as an asthmatic, I got an asthma attack (would this had made difference?) and directly after, I felt sick, as in wanting to vomit, nausea, tiredness, dizziness and never felt better until I got over a full blown cold and chest infection which started the enxt day and set in within about 3-5 days later.

Coincidence?

The Wu-Xing, or 5 element system is simply used as a model for attack, and it works well. It adds direction to a seemingly endless list of points etc, and gives a good base for choosing which points to hit, where to move next, and which points affect which other ones.

As for Qi being a bioelectric current, this is on the cusp of being medically proved. Again, there is no room to post it here, but there is a lot of support for this.

For year, Greek philosophers like Heroclites looked at a force within the human body, but didn't really know what it was. Heroclites called it fire. In the east, Qi has been of legend for years also. Weather is heaven Qi etc.

Later on, physicists such as Nils Bohr, on the back of Einstein relativaty, found that the only real phisical current is bioelectric (to coincide with the Gravitational, Weak and Strong forces that exist in general relativaty and quantam mechanics).

Therefore, over time, people have started to link the two, realising that if a current exists in our body, and the only current is bioelectric (bio meaning simply bodily), Qi must be bioelectricity.

This is a very simplified explanation, but things will be happening soon in this field. I expect it to come from the Dillman camp, but KO's have already been measured on machines, so bioelectric output as Qi force is sure to be next.


Mark.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
Granted it is incomplete as an explanation.

But in itself, nervous shock can cause death. I think the shutdown of muscular proulsion of veinous blood is a good explanation.

There is a lot fo weird stuff that goes on, that has a TCM explanation which only makes sense in context. For example, you are not made out of wood, metal, fire, water or earth.

This why I want a medical explanation - it simply makes more sense.

As for proving qi is bioelectric I doubt it. I have always thought it to be something in context. For example, the ki in Aikido is simply how you use momentum. Only in a strictly technical sense of biomechanic muscle contraction is the attacker's movements , qi! I think that weakening somone's vital functions would affect their bioelectic output, so it would be hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect.

So what is going on?

Anecdote: I was playing Rugby League one lunchtime in Senior Highschool. I copped a hard tackle and the opponent impacted onto my floating ribs, and as an asthmatic, I got an asthma attack (would this had made difference?) and directly after, I felt sick, as in wanting to vomit, nausea, tiredness, dizziness and never felt better until I got over a full blown cold and chest infection which started the enxt day and set in within about 3-5 days later.

Coincidence?[/QUOTE]


The elements are not as you say what we are made of, rather a power or phase of power. I agree with the Bio Electrical concepts. That is why Light Touchs have thier effect. TH circuit sees more problem then are really there and starts it shutdown to protect the rest of the "circuit"

Can you explain how the bioelectric system works for it's various effects then?

But what do you think about shutting down veinous blood flow to the heart, or my anecdote?

Anecdote: Could have some energetic affect, but probably jut a coicidence.

As for the bioelectric system, I like to use the metaphor of humans as robots. A robot can take huge amounts of physical punishment, but if you press the right switches, it can be turned off with the lightest touch.

People are the same. I've seen people take massive physical damage and carry on, but again, if one knows where the right "switches" are and how to activate them, people can be "turned off", i.e. one can cause neurolgical shutdown, or knockout.

It's based on the manipulation of Qi (bioelectricity) throughout a human body to maintain or disrupt certain systems. This is how acupuncture cures, and Kyusho hurts.


Mark.

This didn't explain anything to me.

Why does touching the circuit on the trapezius muscle affect the cell bioelecticity of the Gall Bladder?

There is no room to give a full explanation of TCM on a board like this. For one, I'm not typing out tons of pages, when they exist already in books.

But basically, each meridian consists of an interior pathway lying deep within the body and connecting to an organ (i.e. spleen meridian - spleen); an exterior pathway running alongside the body's surface, delinieated by PP's; and one or more divergent channels that enter deep into the body cavities.

A reason that a strike to the trapezius could affect the Gall Bladder, is that GB-21 (21st point on the Gall Bladder Meridian) is on the trapezius. Well, technically it's on the lateral branch of the supraclaicular nerve, accessory nerve, transverse cervial artery and vein.

To know how a strike on a PP will affect a person, you must study the meridian system.


Mark.

[This message has been edited by StayUnderMyWing (edited 12-17-2004).]

With previous reference to the human bioelectric system, that does not explain how bioelectricity is affected.

I know what the meridians are. So how does striking them affect bioelectricity? Or rather why?

Again, I don't have a qualification in biology or acupuncture, so my answers are simpler than I might wish.

You ask:

"I know what the meridians are. So how does striking them affect bioelectricity? Or rather why?"

Why? It just does. The bioelectrical output has been recorded to alter with strikes, pushes, rubs, needling etc etc, so it just does.

How? Qi is bioelectricity in Western terms. Acupuncture, kyusho, affects Qi. That's how.

If you're looking for detailed medical analysis, or experiement results etc, then I an't help ya. I'm a practitioner, not a doctor. I try to gain as much knowledge as I can, but most people don't know more than "hit that bit of his face", so I'm doing my best.


Mark.

Thanks anyway. I like my theory about paralysing muscle to prevent veinous bloodflow, casuing shock.