Kata Kin Ken (Golden Fist)

My teacher's teacher learned Kin Ken Kata from George Dillman. It is a very advanced kata. I don't know many Dillman folks because my school is a Kyusho International School (Evan Pantazi). I know there are DKI folks on this forum, it seems to be impressively broad based. I'm kind of excited about having ordered Master Pantazi's DVD on the matter that he is doing with a whole cast of the best known KI instructors. It will be a very long time before the DVD is released. Could maybe some of the more advanced DKI folks out there tell me something more about this kata? I kind of want to know everything that makes it unique and maybe what you like best about it.

I spent several years in the DKI earning my 2nd, 3rd and 4th degree black belts in that organization. I still keep in touch with several of the DKI instructors throughout the Midwest where I used to train.

This kata was taught to Mr. Dillman by Daniel K. Pai, and is said to be a high level kata from China. Jim Corn, Evan Pantazi, Mark Kline, and Gary Rooks were all students of Mr. Dillman or members of the DKI at one time. The only one of the 4 I have ever really trained with for any length of time was Mark Kline, and found him to be extremely knowledgeable.

I learned the kata a few years ago. The thing is: is that this kata is only supposed to be passed down from teacher to student first hand or by word of mouth. Not by videotape or book. At least that is how it was explained to me. That is why you generally will not find much info on it. So that in mind, it pains me to see someone making money off it, but it’s not surprising.

$159 Pre-sale price. (Retail price after the product is released will be $199 and special discount for KI Members) Of course the membership cost you $30.00 a year.

Damn! $159.00 for a video? You gotta be freaking kidding me. LOL!

OK then, when I see Master Dillman next month in Ontario, along with remembering not to wear a K.I. patch, I'll remember not to tell him about the DVD.

I’m not sure why you would go to that extreme, and I’m sure Mr. Dillman already knows. Especially since Will Higginbotham sells his videos on the KI web sight and he is currently DKI.

Plus, I’m sure at one time all kata were passed on that way. Eventually someone always cashes in.

OK. Maybe I was wrong.

I spent the morning contacting 4 DKI instructors I know and keep in touch with, and so far it was the first that they had heard of it.

So if Mr. Dillman didn't know, I'm sure he will by this evening.

Have you tried anyone from PAI LUM KUNG FU since the kata is from that system?

I don't think that Mr Dillman can say anything about KI making the video/DVD. They are doing exactly what he did after taking some seminars from Taikia Oyata. Producing media to teach everyone what was once reserved for High Ranking dedicated student.

Yes actually, thank you. I found the web site the first day I was looking for it and there is a lot of info. More is being posted too on the kyusho.com web site. Thank you also for the reminder of how much controversy Master Dillman has generated. He reminds people in his videos but, I wouldn't have known what that actually meant so many years ago. I take my PP study for granted. I have probably pretty near all of Master Dillman's books and videos, and many others from Will Higginbotham, David Rhodes, Steve Stewart, Kim Dillman, Mark Kline, Evan Pantazi, and many others from closely related or useful styles. When the masters bring their material forward this way, it is the only way that I would ever have access. I go to conferences but when I go, I often have no uke because no one wants to train with an old lady. I was 54 when I got my belt I'm 56 now and I am female. Personally I don't believe that being male healthy strong and in the 30s to 40s age range after maybe 3 decades of study is the only criteria for deciding who is worthy. I ordered the DVD. I have confidence in Master Pantazi and the others. My journey is very different. I just try to find the best learning opportunities I can for myself. Often that is outside of my school and that is OK. The price of the video may seem high to someone who was qualified to learn privately from Master Dillman. I will never have that opportunity. How much do the Dillman Black Belts pay in training fees to learn this material from him personally? Don't tell me. It was a rhetorical question the answer for which is not my business. The point is that this is the best learning opportunity I have. I will gladly travel to your school's seminar, to the extent that I can afford, to take advantage of whatever appropriate learning opportunities you can offer me and other atypical learners. I can't bench 135 pounds anymore but I used to. I can't do a jump spinning hook kick anymore, but I could. I still have the will to make the journey and I am not ready to retire from the martial arts quite yet. I would say that for at least some of the upcoming best, that if they had as difficult a journey as mine is sometimes, they would not have continued. Many would, of course, but they might grant that encouragement and and easier skill acquisition from an early age contribute to their success. Imagine training without that in an environment that finds you odd. I'm sorry for preaching. Maybe we need a forum for us lesser humans so that we can uphold and uplift one another in the quest that we only dream about winning. Bu the way, if you see an atypical learner at a seminar who is without an uke, please consider offering the opportunity to work in with you as a third. It means a lot. Take it from one who is last chosen, the underdog.

The reason it was taught to high ranking select students was because of the great skill it takes to really use this information. Many of the techniques shown in seminars will never work in real life for the majority. The differnace between a training partner and a real life situation is great. The subject of body alarm reaction and related issues come into play.
As in any subject there are opinions on who has the best knowledge, IMHO Oyatas RYU TE system is the best for this information.
Many are being started down the PP path too soon and do not have the skill to use a kyusho strike.



[This message has been edited by kempocos (edited 10-01-2004).]

Kempocos you are 100% correct.

It is an endless cycle:
-Mr. Oyata was forced to leave Mr. Nakamura’s Okinawa Kenpo Renmei after visiting the US in 1968 for reportedly for showing techniques he was asked not to.

-Mr. Dillman puts out books and videos with subject matter that he was advised not to.

-Mr. Pantazi puts out a DVD with a kata and bunkai that he was asked not to.

-Was Mr. Nakamura upset about what Oyata did?
Yes.

-Was Mr. Oyata upset about what Dillman did?
Yes.

-Will Mr.Dillman be upset at what Pantazi
did?
Only time will tell, but I'm sure we know the answer.

Are we better off for people who have gone against the main stream, or not?
I would say yes.

Kuma, your reply is simply and well stated. I would agree. Of importance too is the objective one has in studying martial arts. The times have changed. The appearance of the students have changed. I will never be an elite martial artist, but I actually use my martial arts in live situations in addition to the domain of dojo reality. My expectation is that the DVD WILL meet some of my realistic and more modest objectives. Obviously in the thinking and knowledge domain, I will benefit. Don't rule out that my net fighting efficasy might also benefit because I don't. I thank everyone who has brought martial arts forward. I thank them as if they were doing it just for me personally. They have given me a great gift that changes my work-outs, my healing, and the way I look at a lot of things.

KUMA - I agree, we are better off with the information. It needs to mentioned that PP training is something to be added to a style and NOT a style. I have seen many KYU get too coaught up in TCM concepts and do not refine thier technique enough to really use them. IMHO prior to shodan no more than 5% of training should be PP's, after that 10 to 20 % max. This how my instructors present it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempocos:
KUMA - I agree, we are better off with the information. It needs to mentioned that PP training is something to be added to a style and NOT a style. I have seen many KYU get too coaught up in TCM concepts and do not refine thier technique enough to really use them. IMHO prior to shodan no more than 5% of training should be PP's, after that 10 to 20 % max. This how my instructors present it. [/QUOTE]

You have a very wise instructor...

Bah. You should be taught everything properly as early as possible.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
Bah. You should be taught everything properly as early as possible.[/QUOTE]

In order to teach pressure points properly the student needs to know the basics. Very few points should be taught to kyu levels because their understanding of the basics isn't as well established. kempocos and kuma are right, kyu level students involvement with PP should be limited. Many today are too eager to rush through the basics so they can learn "the cool stuff". The more PP are integrated into their daily training the less some of them will focus on their other training. What you end up with is someone who has little knowledge of timing, distance and other aspects needed when faced with a truly hostile situation.

I agree, in case this comment was directed towards me for maybe under representing myself. It was then, but not quite as true now in my school, that before a person could attend pressure point seminars, they had to be a black belt. There was some introduction of a limited number of points into the que ranks but limited. I did wait it out until I got to Shodan. KI didn't even start until after I reached Shodan. Absolutely, Kyusho is not a style but a tool to be added to a complete fighting style. If this is in fact what you are learning, then the pressure points aren't even that hard because when you revisit the bunkai you are already aware of and the canned self defense and kumite you memorized since white belt, you naturally see how pressure points were there all along waiting for you to acquire technical proficiency sufficient to exploit them.

I dont know if I agree with teaching Kyu less PP's because everyone is different. I have seen students that are naturally advanced in the martial arts that can easily add pressure points to their fighting. I think the higher ranked guys and girls dont like to teach this because the feel it gives them an advantage when they know the kyu will beat the p*** out of them. Besides every new person has trouble with kicks and punches too....that doesnt stop people from teaching that from the begining.

Most people in Martial Arts can't fight anyway...they want a hobby, that is fine, but just because some 35 year old lawyer- who can't do a good Kata or Sparr to save his life has money he makes the ranks and gets his PP's anyway...I know if you have been around long enough you have seen this.

It should be taught openly just like everything else. Maybe not the advanced levels No Touches, Sound projection and that but Instructors only want to give you bits and pieces so you get strung along for 3 years paying money. That is not right!

Oh come on. PP aren't that hard, but you need to be a Shodan. And your sensei will be incompetent and not train you enough in absics, kata, bunkai weapons or kumite if you learn PP?

What's so bad about teaching things properly as early as possible?

Amen Mark! Say it Again! You dont need to be a shodan...ITS JUST A BELT...It does not show your skill level! They want you to be a shodan so you will pay them for 4 years of training 70 x 12 x 4= $3,360 dollars(min) and they can string you along some more once you think the payoff is coming! 4 Years of training for them to say forget the cycles you dont need them! Hit these-they do this -now put this with that! Oh and dont hit those too hard!

If kyusho got taught like everything else, people wouldnt regard it as myth! You string someone along, they quit and you have a lot of people that know alittle and cant prove it works. Everyone else thinks its crap. Teach it right from the start. In JKD for instance- they know a headbutt works, they dont teach them 4 years later to headbutt, its one of the first things you learn...Granted if everyone knows Kyusho you cant charge a arm a leg for your seminars, lessons or videos.

You can look all up and down this PP forum and see the great masters say they wont discuss this and that...they just dont want you to learn unless you pay. Why even have a forum to discuss PP application if you arent going to share your information or answer a question.

[This message has been edited by Turbo (edited 10-03-2004).]

[QUOTE]PP aren't that hard[/QUOTE]

What experience do you have with PP?

[QUOTE]And your sensei will be incompetent and not train you enough in absics, kata, bunkai weapons or kumite if you learn PP?[/QUOTE]

No one said that. I said students tend to rush through the basics wanting to get to more advanced material.

[QUOTE]What's so bad about teaching things properly as early as possible?[/QUOTE]

In order for a student to "properly" learn PP they need a good understanding of the basics first. They will learn the application of PP faster and have a better understanding of them if you wait. No one ever said you had to wait till shodan to start either, they just shouldn't be covered as in-depth till then. It also depends on the student.

[QUOTE]You dont need to be a shodan...ITS JUST A BELT...It does not show your skill level![/QUOTE]

Yes it is just a belt, but any good instructor will not promote a shodan unless they are at that skill level.

[QUOTE]They want you to be a shodan so you will pay them for 4 years of training 70 x 12 x 4= $3,360 dollars(min) and they can string you along some more once you think the payoff is coming![/QUOTE]

That may have been how it was with you but i avoid places like that at all cost.

[QUOTE]4 Years of training for them to say forget the cycles you dont need them! Hit these-they do this -now put this with that! Oh and dont hit those too hard![/QUOTE]

You don't have much experience with PP do you. If you don't have a good understanding of body mechanics, timing, distance and rhythm PP aren't going to do anything for you. Which is why YOU NEED THE BASICS FIRST.

[QUOTE]If kyusho got taught like everything else, people wouldnt regard it as myth![/QUOTE]

The largest myth about PP is that once you learn them you can throw everything out the window. Why promote a stupid myth?

[QUOTE]In JKD for instance- they know a headbutt works, they dont teach them 4 years later to headbutt, its one of the first things you learn[/QUOTE]

A headbutt is a far cry from PP. Your reaching.

[QUOTE]Granted if everyone knows Kyusho you cant charge a arm a leg for your seminars, lessons or videos.[/QUOTE]

I've never paid anything for PP training. I have paid for any training in almost 10 years. You don't know what you’re talking about. Granted there are some who do charge a lot for these services, but there are also those from ANY system that does the same.

[QUOTE]You can look all up and down this PP forum and see the great masters say they wont discuss this and that...they just dont want you to learn unless you pay.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again. Most here aren't going to give some kid pointers on PP with out knowing what kind of training they have had. Pressure points can be very dangerous and like most other forms of training should only be done under the supervision of a legitimate instructor.

[QUOTE]Why even have a forum to discuss PP application if you arent going to share your information or answer a question.[/QUOTE]

You need to read a bit further. There has been some very good information exchange here.

Pressure points are not beginners training. They can be touched on from time to time to give the students an idea of why some thing is done a certain way but not focused on like in an advanced class. If your in a system that says "there are no blocks, everything is a strike" then you can point out some instances of why and how they are strikes. In every system of fighting there is a natural progression of technique. Everything has a different depth to it. You have to teach in the proper progression in order to produce the proper out come. Like i said before, you can teach some pressure points in the early stages of training but training in depth shouldn't happen till after the student has a firm grasp of the basics. I only use shodan as an example, i was first introduced to PP as an 8th kyu. Mostly arm points were covered but others were thrown into the mix from time to time. You obviously have misunderstood or have no concept of PP. Not everyone is only out for money.

I've got nothing against people selling their knowledge or expertise. Martial arts is merely another trade, like plumbing or actuarial studies.

Hapkido teaches PP from the beginning, they teach a broad base from the bottom up.

It doesn't have the same aura it does in karate.

It's just another part of the art.

I have about 8 years experience with PP's. From about 11 years of karate. I do not feel my striking or grappling suffered.

Like i said, you misunderstood what was being said. Not everyone suffers, there are a lot that have issues with retaining basics like stances and have timing issues. It's not only because of PP, it happens when anything the student perceives as “advanced” techniques or studies are introduced. Pressure points are introduced into hapkido in almost the same way as most karate schools. The karate schools that teach the use of PP will introduce them in the kyu levels like i said before but in-depth training doesn't happen till the student has a better understanding of the basics. The same is in hopkido, there are basic points taught early on but aren't gone into in detail till later. Hopkido doesn't venture into PP KOs like some forms of karate either. The majority of the pp techniques taught in hopkido are grappling and strikes to break down the defenses; they do go into much more detail in more advanced stages.

Pressure points are taught very early in hsing-i, from the beginning. It's very basic and isn't approached as a tool for ko like in some other systems. Yet again the more advanced you become in your other training the more advanced you become in PP. No one in his or her right mind will push you straight into PP with little other training. Ultimately it comes down to the student. If you have a 5th kyu that is obviously mature enough and is able to learn at a faster pace you can increase the frequency of his or her PP training. More than likely what you and I consider advance PP are two different things.

It is one thing to be told " HIT HERE IT IS POINT GB20 AND STRIKE IT LIKE THIS" and another thing to be able to apply the concepts during a fight and determine that a Kyusho strike has presented it self. This is why the information is given to higher ranks. They if they EARNED thier rank have the control and understanding to create and see the oppertunity of a Kyusho strike.
As for high priced seminars, I have found the more you pay for the person and the more marketing they do the LESS acurate thier information is. I have heard some stuff that was so wrong I almost laughed out loud and when discussed the theory presented had the person admit thier error.

There is no way around it, it takes hard work and time regardless of how talented YOU believe YOU are, others may see you skill level in differant way.

[This message has been edited by kempocos (edited 10-04-2004).]

That said, I don't think we disagree on anything.

Daniel Pai was one of the early pioneers teaching the martial arts for big bucks. The Pai Lum (White Dragon) system that he taught was shared in the 60's-70's in the N.E. USA by Pai before he 'retired' to Hawaii his home, to surface in Florida just before his death years later.

Mr. Pai had taught Mr. Dillman, for example one of the competition forms Mr. Dillman used when he was know as a major kata competiror was Pai Lum Kuen. Its quite reasonable that Mr. Pai had taught more to Mr. Dillman, as Mr. Pai was teaching for big cash.

Not to mean this dispectfully, the Pai Lum system is interesting, comprised of Northern and Southern Shaolin technique. Those in Pai Lum are very 'clannish' about their system. My tai chi instructor also trained under Mr. Pai, and taught that system for many years before changing over to another of his studies.

I've sent him a question about Kin Ken, as to how Pai taught it within the Pai Lum group. From his Pai Lum instructors manual Golden Fist was 13th of 21 advanced forms he was teaching in those days.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Just a note on the research on Pai Lum's Golden Fist from my friend. BTW he was not familiar with the form under the Kin Ken term, but in Pai Lum it is most commonly know n as Golden Fist.

"Golden Fist is a form the Pai taught. I don't know how well hidden it was, but a lot of Pai Lum people knew it.

It's a form very similar to 1000 steps (note from me, another advanced Pai Lum form, one Cindy Rothrock often used for competition in the late 70's and early 80's).

It has a lot of inside forearm blocks, side kicks, and some moves from the horse like Bassai."

Just to give you some context about the form in discussion.

Hope this is helpful,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Thank you Victor Smith. I checked PL web site and read history and looked at pictures. Another thing I learned in posting is how territorial people can be about knowledge. I can't imagine this discussion occuring so candidly on any other forum. I actually found this forum by chance! Thanks to everyone who has written on this topic. I definately got ideas about what makes the kata special and information about it and the politics of martial arts and tradition. Thanks to all.

Underdog,

It's just I happen to have lived in Penna. and trained with a number of knowledgeable instructors.

I trained under Ernest Rothrock for Tai Chi and various Kung Fu studies to be an honest judge. I never became a kung fu student, but learned a great deal. He taught the Pai Lum system for way over 25 years as he trained seriously in others systems such as Northern Eagle Claw. After about 25 years of work to learn the entire Eagle Claw system he then choose to switch his schools over to Eagle Claw, but he waited till he learnt all of it first. A different standard than many others take.

I recall one of his school instructors used to compete with Golden Fist, but after seeing so many different Chinese forms with him it doesn't stand out more than the others. In the Pai Lum curricula, it's just one of a series of advanced forms, not necessarily more or less than the others.

His conversion to Eagle Claw was because of his own various studies, it representing the highest level of training he was interested in, and he waited till he got it all before teaching it.

I'm sure the Golden Fist dvd will be interesting, but I'd always choose to train with a knowledgeable instructor, for a long time over any media version. Too much is lost without the personal contact.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Thanks for the info Victor Smith. It's always good to see things from a different perspective.

Some may consider Niahanchi to be the heart of Karate, but to others it may be the first kata they learn and nothing more. Chotoku Kyan considered Gojushiho to hold the essence of Okinawan Karate, but I've seen it learned for no greater reason than to attain a brown belt.

Although some consider Mr. Dillman a money hungry misinformer, he never attempted to make any money by exploiting it. He could of years ago, but for what ever his reason he didn’t. Does that mean it holds a special place for me? No. I perform two katas twice a day, every day and Kin Ken is not one of them.

This leads me to something I have always said:
A kata is only as technical as the individual performing it, its meaning is only as deep as the individual is willing to search, and its importance is only as high as an individual holds it.

Very true Kuma- I have seen the same katas placed all over the curriculum of different schools. How advanced they are depends on the student. I will go through intervals when I might be performing kata concentrating on just the energy movement and breathing- all the internal stuff and other times working on Bunkai. Then, other times, and I am not ashamed to admit it, I might be doing my kata knowingly just for the technical perfection of the strikes as drills for basics with or without weights. I might take short sections and do them with cable or elastic resistance. Rick Clark has a really cool book called 75 Down Blocks (I think that is the title). This is perfect for anyone who thinks their very first kata isn't advanced. It is a journey.

Just a small point, there is a long tradition in many arts charging whatever the limit is worth.

For example its reported Usheiba M. paid a fortue or each Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu technique he studied and later based his Aikido on.

Charging for instruction isn't good or bad, its really between the buyer and seller, especially if what is being offered is of value.

Personally I've paid thousands of dollars for some of the forms I've studied. And as the instructor was great, it was worth every penny. I wanted to learn something about the Chinese arts, and my instructor was and is a professional, and shared freely with me.

Yep he charged, and I paid it for years, but the experience and knowledge was worth every penny, to me.

On the other hand I don't charge anything. But I've never shared those forms either. Not because I'm stingy, it's just none of the students were willing to pay the price in time training.

For I didn't pay just cash, instead also added years and hundreds of hours work to learn.

So if charges exist, its up to the buyer to know what they're getting is worthy or not.

As for the Golden Fist dvd, if that's what you want and you can't train with them personally, that's your only choice, unless you go to a Pai Lum instructor and train for many, many years till you get to the point to study Golden Fist there.

Of course their use and study of Golden Fist, based on long study of their art will be vastly different from the upcoming dvd too.

Not good, or bad, just vastly different.

Something to chew on,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Well, a friend of mine paid out the big cash for this DVD. She received it today, and invited me over to watch it.

I will not take any cheep shots or make any comments about techniques or individuals.

All I will say is that Daniel K. Pai is rolling over in his grave.

[This message has been edited by Kuma (edited 12-07-2004).]

I do not know much about Daniel Pai. I have been reading this thread for some time now and decided to buy the DVD. I was not sure what to expect from the mixed posts here, but it was enough to intrigue me.

I can honestly say, without any bias, this appears to be the most comprehensive martial arts video I have ever seen! The best part about it is that if you are in the mood to work on striking, there is almost an hour of the kata being broken down, just for striking. I counted...over 40 knockouts! If you are in the mood for grappling...it is there, energy disruptions...it is there, Kiai Jitsu...there.

Never before have I seen something like this. Definately impressed with everything from presentation to packaging. A professional job!

Cheers!

FB

Yeah the info is there , now how much will really work? are those KO going to work against a resisting attacker, 99% of light touch KO's will not. KIAI JUTSU is something I do not have any faith in.

After watching this 2 disk set over the weekend, and looking at all the videos/DVD's on my shelf, this is the most complete breakdown of any kata that I have ever seen.

Has anyone out there even heard of 1 kata being broken down on any video /DVD in this manner? I know some people have different levels of tapes of their techniques (Costs range anywhere from $30-$99/tape), but I own about 200 videos. None of them come close to the quality of information that I see on this set.

Is it a lot of money? It all depends on how you look at it. 4 instructors each teaching for approx 50 min to 1 hour. Individually the cost /tape would be around $40. This was a professional job, not some tape copied in someone's basement. I have invested a lot of time and $ in my training. Notice the key word...INVESTMENT...that is all it is...an investment in my personal search. Sitting around at home or with only my small circle of fellow martial artists can become stagnent at times. I can afford it. I took the chance. I feel that I got my money's worth and more. If you cannot afford the price...then how can you even say it is too expensive? Too expensive compared to what?

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas (or whatever holiday you celebrate) and Happy New Year!

FB

I agree completely. This is a model for anyone who wants to know how to look at bunkai and this DVD sets a new standard of excellence on how to make a kata DVD.

OK well produced, any teen with a digital camcorder and a computer can edit down a pro job now a days, My kids and friends do all the time. The techniques need to be vaild, that is the deciding part how many techniques are valid. Take them and with a none compliant partner try them and then comment on the video .

Kempocos,

I do not agree. Martial Arts Instructional Videos are just that...INSTRUCTIONAL.

Sports teams go through the plays during practice and play simulated games in preseason and practice to get the mindset and muscle memory necessary to complete the play, and to prepare them as best that they can for real situations.

I am an accountant by trade. I take accounting courses all the time on tax law, etc. These are the tools of my trade. Do I use them all the time? No. It depends on the situation and how the individual or company need their files to get the most benefits within the guidelines of the law.

Any instructional seminar, manual, or video (in any field), is just that...instructional. If it was cage fighting, UFC, NHB and such, then it would have said so. I own BJJ videos, Dillman Videos, Dog Brothers, Dan Inosanto, and more. They are instructional and attempt to teach techniques that it is then up to the individual to practice them to make them second nature.

I guess the question that should be posed to you would be...How much real fighting experience do you have and do you get in fights on a regular basis?

Cheers!

FB

The other question, an none of this should be taken the wrong way,

What contributions to the martial arts have you made?

You make comments and suggestions, are they based on real experience, theory, a combination of the two?

Are your comments based on things that you would like to see?

cheers!

FB

FB the only contrbution I make is to make sure those I train with do not rely on information that is flawed. Telling folks that the KIAI will effected an attacker is wrong, selling Light Touch KO as anything but a neat palor trick to prove concepts is wrong. Telling folks that size and stentgh does not matter is wrong as it determines what to use.
I have said it before I am in NJ and will offer myself to anyone who can effect my CHI , stop my attack with a Kiai or No Touch technique. Or attempt a Light Touch KO while sparring. Some have tried and thier out is " Well you train in KYUSHO/ TUITE and therefore not effected like others" just PM me. And yes I have been to Mark Kline ( prior to joining KI) seminars and Dillman seminars. I am curreently a member of DRAGON SOCIETY run by Tom Muncy and Rick Moneymaker and was a student of a Sieyu Oyatas senior student who was one of the few who brought him to the US. I have seen many claims such as TUITE being a uniquly HOGAN word, funny I learned it from Oyata.

SO pm me and prove me wrong , as I am here to learn and not spread rumors.

Those of you who've seen the Kin Ken video tape, I'm glad you found it well done.

Now for the larger questions.

Is the video good enough that you will try and learn the form from the video?

Are the technqiues shown clearly enough so that you'll really work on them?

If you're an instructor will you incorporate this training into your teachings?

Does the tape meet your needs, or do you believe you still need a live instructor to obtain what the tape shows?

I'm curious about how people utilize tapes and this one seems to be well received.

The most valuable tapes I have came from clinics and trainings I've undergone and were taped. And even with valuable material I always find it takes about 5 years before I can fit it into my students program of instruction. Some times because those training are not ready for the material, but largely because to use something else I have to change, slow down or drop another training to use it. And I find what we're already doing of value, not to diminish the new, but just to reinforce the effort to use it takes on a life of its own.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Kempocos, I think Gary Rooks and Jim Corn are the guys you want if you're looking for proof of Kiai-jutsu.

Underdog, you're a Pantazi student? I used to be a internet student of his, and go to his UK seminars, but have been a bit laz recently and let thigns slip. Bloody university, bloody beer!

I really want to get right back to where I was, and finally test!


Mark.

Victor Smith- It would be hard to learn the kata from the DVD and the instructors explain that this is not their focus. You don't need to know the kata at all to use the DVD, although I was lucky in that I was able to learn the kata from my teacher, who learned it from Master Pantazi. Each instructor in the DVD goes over the moves piece by piece before he addresses just that piece. The material is applicable and trainable. I've taken ideas from it and brought them back to the dojo and practiced them with other people. The DVD is really densely packed with material. There is plenty there to practice for a very long time.

Mark- My school is a K.I. School and so my kyusho training is the program created by Evan Pantazi. I personally no longer study directly with Master Pantazi because I am not advanced enough. I used to be part of a class that trained with him when I first became a black belt but with the advent of Kyusho International, that class got redefined in a way that excluded me. My teachers study with him directly. I hope to reach the level required to get back into that class but I might be dreaming bigger than reality will deliver. Anyway, I keep trying. Master Pantazi is an awesome teacher. Jim Hulse is a K.I. developer in UK and Master Pantazi is having seminars for his international students. Check the web site for details Kyusho.com. in the seminars section. There may be something there to get you back in the program. He also still has the internet course I believe, but check the site.

Underdog,

Thank you for your reply, my interest is solely in trying to understand the video offering.

I actually live quite close to Mr. Pantazi, but my own interests do not lie in the shape of his art, no slight intended. After my own 30+ years of study I'm not seeking more instruction outside of my own studies.

As one of my instructors was a student of Mr. Pai, if I wanted the form I would be intersted in the Pai Lum version, but I already have enough Chinese studies in various systems and Tai Chi to keep us busy for a long time.

I do find good video instruction interesting, but having too many as it, of all sorts, is I can't justify spending anything on more things I won't get around to watch. My own preference has always been on live instruction.

There is such diversity in intense training that works, it is good to see somebody craft what they're doing well.

I'm also interested in how people use the information available. Since your in his lineage and have studies on that form I can see where it would be of value to you.

Thanks again,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kuma:
Kempocos you are 100% correct.

1) -Mr. Oyata was forced to leave Mr. Nakamura’s Okinawa Kenpo Renmei after visiting the US in 1968 for reportedly for showing techniques he was asked not to.

2) -Mr. Dillman puts out books and videos with subject matter that he was advised not to.

3) -Mr. Pantazi puts out a DVD with a kata and bunkai that he was asked not to.

4) -Was Mr. Nakamura upset about what Oyata did?
Yes.

5) -Was Mr. Oyata upset about what Dillman did?
Yes.

[/QUOTE]

1) Who told you that? That is total BS. Mr. Oyata and several others left Nakamura's dojo for other reasons NOT related to technique or going to the US.

2) Dillman went to 6 seminars given by my teacher….he trained very little but instead chose to video tape others training.
3) The blind leading the blind I would say.
4) No, for reasons given above.
5) I think Mr. Oyata doesn’t really care about Dillman. He never mentions him. His main concern was Dillman hadn’t learned enough to show the art correctly.

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 01-31-2005).]

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 01-31-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempocos:
I have seen many claims such as TUITE being a uniquly HOGAN word, funny I learned it from Oyata.
[/QUOTE]

Tuite is a word that was coined by my teacher (Seiyu Oyata) to describe the grappling art that he teaches. It is a combination of Okinawan & Japanese. Tui = tori in Japanese and Te = di in Okinawan. Okinawan = tuidi, Japanese = torite.
Mr. Oyata’s version Tuite

kempocos,

Could you do me a favor and shoot me an email.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RyuShikan Tokyo:
Dillman went to 6 seminars given by my teacher.he trained very little but instead chose to video tape others training. [/QUOTE]
6 seminars and then was promoted to 7th degree, pretty impressive ranking system?

[QUOTE] Originally posted by RyuShikan Tokyo:
I think Mr. Oyata doesn’t really care about Dillman. He never mentions him. His main concern was Dillman hadn’t learned enough to show the art correctly. [/QUOTE]
I think he cared enough to switch the name of his art about the same time Dillman started using Ryukyu Kempo.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by RyuShikan Tokyo:
The blind leading the blind I would say. [/QUOTE]
Listen, I'm not trying to argue with you about anything. As I've said before I left the DKI almost 10 years ago because of differences. But I believe there are a lot of people out there doing more harm to martial arts than Mr. Dillman. There is a reason why it’s called "Pressure Point Theory" and not "Pressure Point Fact," and there are as many theories as there are instructors. Is everyone else wrong? Or just different? I also went on to study with Mr. Saed in the Oyata system for a few years. Funny, I didn’t see that much difference.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kuma:

1) 6 seminars and then was promoted to 7th degree, pretty impressive ranking system?
2) I think he cared enough to switch the name of his art about the same time Dillman started using Ryukyu Kempo.

3) I also went on to study with Mr. Saed in the Oyata system for a few years. Funny, I didn’t see that much difference.[/QUOTE]

1) That rank was one of those “Honorary” types and didn’t come from hard work and sweat that’s for sure. Had he known Dillman was such a snake I doubt he would have given him anything.


2) Dillman was using Ryukyu Kempo shortly after meeting Mr. Oyata in the early 1980’s. Mr. Oyata changed the name of his organization around 1994.
3) I was around before Dillman ever showed up and I can see the difference…in fact I see a big difference. Footwork for starters and hand postion etc….

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 02-23-2005).]

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 02-23-2005).]

Hello Gentlemen,

Its interesting how this form and recent DVD has created a stir.
I first heard about it through a member of the Dragonslist. Telling me that Mr Glenn Wilson(Self Proclaimed GM of Pai Lum) has also released an instructional tape of the set. Though its not surprising its like his 40th tape.

Still I love the set. Though I dont agree with whoring it out to any T,D, or H. Partially because I know most often they are not going to "get it". And secondly because Whats the use of the 15 20 years the rest of us put into loveign and training in a style hubly and patiently just so that Joe Martial Artist around the corner can pick up our forms.

Now for the people with the understanding and ability to get it I say the tape is cool but still dont really agreee with Learning the hole thing from one. I think you should find a reputable teacher willing to teach you. Learn it and support that learing with the tape/DVD.

Thats Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
What the hell right, its just a form.

respectfully.

OOPS! This got posted twice!

[This message has been edited by underdog (edited 03-29-2005).]

Hi PaiLumUmar- Actually it would be hard to learn the kata from the DVD. The purpose of the DVD was to present 4 hours of applications information: 1 hour from Evan Pantazi on energy applications, 1 hour from Jim Corn on striking applications, 1 hour from Mark Kline on grappling applications and 1 hour from Gary Rooks on sound applications.

What might interest you is that there is a 3 day conference with the above named quartet in Peabody Massachusetts U.S.A. on April 8-9-10. where even more advanced applications will be discussed and the kata will be taught. I'm lucky because my teacher decided to teach it to his interested black belts and so I actually did get a chance to learn it, which makes the DVD easier to understand.

Go to Kyusho.com and check it out and register if you want. I believe there will be some old footage of the kata shown too. If you do go, your presence would enrich the experience for the advanced people. That would be great but I'd loose out since I am only intermediate. Should you go, tell me who you are. I'd love to know what you think.

Hello, I am new to this site.
It is my understanding that Thomas St. Charles brought this form into Pai-Lum. In fact I have seen video from the early 70's with Mr. St.Charles demonstrating the form and applications. I Learned this set from Mr. St.Charles in 1984. I am not sure of its origins other than that. In my school we consider this form to be Chinese/Okinawan Kempo.