Taikyoku Shodan...A beginners Kata?!?

Great point Sean.

To begin to really find the techniques in kata you must first forget most everything that you were taught. Everything is a clue. I love the way that some of the chinese systems name techniques and movements. I think that we would have caught on faster if this was the case in karate/kempo/kenpo[although SGM Parker did a great job at not pidgeon-holeing stuff].

If they would have named low-block something like "Purple monkey steals the grape", it would help people see past the word "BLOCK". This "BLOCK" can be at least 15 different techniques.

I feel that the bottom line is that we should move kata from the cheap belt-promotion requirement, to the system teaching tool that it was designed to be. As a matter of fact I feel that you could effectively teach an entire system of "Karate/Kempo/Kenpo" with just one kata!

oops...looks like I've done it now. Let the stones fly!!!

Scott

[I don't buy it. In order for the legs and hips to kick back, you're going to have to put enough force into your double strike to reverse the opponent's forward momentum. Otherwise, he'll still fold into you. Also, your arms will have to be significantly longer than his inasmuch as you're striking at a downward angle while he's pushing straight on. The distancing is not right. It might work in a seminar with a compliant partner, but it's certainly not a technique I would attempt under real conditions.]

You would be assuming that I am going to stand and stay static in front of him. There is a saying from an old internal arts master that "One ounce deflects a thousand pounds). With a slight turn you can all but negate his force, and if you look at the motion there is a small twist of the hips and shoulders before the hands go out. Also I'm not asking you to buy it, I am saying that it works for me. It certainly works better than blocking a low kick, and punching the solar plexus over and over.
As far as force goes he will supply the needed force. When using kyusho, you should not strike any harder that the strike of a 10-year old boy.

[That may be. I was asking how you reached his foot while simultaneously double-punching to his midsection (that was your original explanation). Again, the distancing doesn't work.]

See above for a way. When you yield he will come in the distance will be closer. You can never assume that any technique is fail-safe(whether brute force smacking or pressure point manipulation). You must always go with wha you get.

[Has it ever occurred to you that some movements in kata may be transitional or set-up movements or may be designed to help the practitioner develop necessary attributes such as balance, focus, proper use of koshi, etc.?]

Absolutely, when I say a technique these are definately included. Some motions simply point out with one hand where you are to be striking/grabbing/tickling with the other hand.

[I believe that every movement in kata has a purpose but that they need not be techniques. In fact, most of the movements are NOT techniques in and of themselves but are only the component movements from which techniques can be constructed.

It's true that many practitioners look at kata in a simplistic way - all punching and kicking. It's my opinion, however, that the notion that everything is a pressure point strike is equally simplistic albeit at the opposite extreme.]

Again, we agree. Many things that I have learned from kata have nothing to do with pressure point strikes. I think that we should seek balance in all things. Pressure points are not the elusive "Sliced Bread". They are only a tool that can be added to help our techniques to be more effective.

Scott

JA... i personally think that youre getting a little aggressive here... it's ok to question, and it's even ok to not agree with something, but man... lighten up...

however, i do have a couple constructive comments too... first off, i know both the move, and the application that scott's talking about with the double fists, and you have to realize the difference in attacks... one of the things i preach about quite a bit on my site, is understanding what the attack really is, and what the dangers are... in this case, a push, too many students (and instructors alike) confuse a push with a tackle. they take a few steps back and put this huge amount of force behind it... like someone's going to just stand there and watch you rev up for that... a push doesnt have to have your entire body weight behind it... many times a push is just one of those punking type pushes where theyre just trying to start something... for a really really hard push, youre much better getting off-line... i know for a fact that scott doesnt have one of those really hard pushes in mind... the stance is wrong... however, ive personally seen this done quite often again a lapel grab, or choke... does that suit your needs a little better??

also, you may think that some moves in kata are only basics that can make up techniques, but i usually find that that stems from mis-interpretation of the moves in the kata... i know i used to have moves that i thought were just random basics thrown in the middle of 2 techniques, or a random piece of footwork, but once i learned what to look for, i saw that those pieces were really part of one of the techniques in the kata... they werent random at all... let me ask you a logical question though... if you have a random basic in your kata, what purpose would it have there if not to be a technique?? just to force you to practice it?? thats not usually the case at all...

this is why i was saying earlier that you were getting too aggressive about this whole thing... it doesnt seem to me that youre really interested in learning, or discussing... if you were, instead of spending all your time telling scott that his technique against a push is crap, you wouldve thought to yourself, is it possible this really is a technique... i dont think i could do it against a hard push, but maybe something similar... and having the stellar knowledge of points that im sure you have, you already know that those points are more active when the arms are up, so you would simply devise something with a little less motion, like a choke... and if youre still concerned about the foot, then put yourself against a wall for now until youre more used to it... thats all im saying... if you were really interested in learning, youd take more things into consideration before you told someone that they didnt know what they were doing... and you can argue all you like, thats really what you were saying whether you said it or not... ive known scott for going on 2yrs now, and hes never fed me any B.S. applications... he and i have talked at great length about a many of topics, and have exchanged many bodily fluids (just kidding)... but seriously...

one of the things i find very interesting, is that most guys dont think much about their katas... they dont use them, they only perform them for their rank, but if you talk bad about the kata, then theyre all of a sudden up in arms...

JA, may i be so bold as to ask your style... if you couldnt tell, im a kenpo guy myself...
as far as sound goes, ive got a tape i shot just 2mo ago, of jim corn doing a sound KO on one of his students... very impressive to see... as well as a pretty decent no-touch...

hey scott... i know a lot of dki have been talking about the fact that a lot of the no-touch stuff isnt practical... how about in a hold-up situation... he tells you to raise your hands, and you do.. only youre so good at projecting your chi, that he starts to get dizzy, and you overtake him... has anyone thought of that application yet... just a thought i had...

later dudes...
sean.

Sean,

Good application for the no-touch. I am getting some good results, but its draining my kidney energy to practice too much. I think I've got some ideas. I am trying to make it to the next summer camp to get some more info. This past camp George did two no-touches that took less than one second to work.

As far as the push/shove/tackle goes you're exactly right. I mean a push like when a fight usually starts. There are many other moves to handle a tackle. Good catch on the uke's arms being up, it makes the KO so much easier. If they grab it gets even better because they have already shorted themselves out for you.

I might be coming to the Dallas area in August for some training and system review. I'll let you know the dates.

Scott

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KenpoSecrets:
JA... i personally think that youre getting a little aggressive here... it's ok to question, and it's even ok to not agree with something, but man... lighten up...]

Sorry that I've come off as too aggressive; that was not my intent. It was just that Scott described an application in which he was striking an opponent with both arms extended while simultaneously stepping on his foot. I didn't understand how this could be possible inasmuch as my own feet are not as long as my arms. [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Scott has since unlinked the two motions which makes more sense.

[however, i do have a couple constructive comments too... first off, i know both the move, and the application that scott's talking about with the double fists, and you have to realize the difference in attacks... one of the things i preach about quite a bit on my site, is understanding what the attack really is, and what the dangers are... in this case, a push, too many students (and instructors alike) confuse a push with a tackle. they take a few steps back and put this huge amount of force behind it... like someone's going to just stand there and watch you rev up for that... a push doesnt have to have your entire body weight behind it... many times a push is just one of those punking type pushes where theyre just trying to start something... for a really really hard push, youre much better getting off-line... i know for a fact that scott doesnt have one of those really hard pushes in mind... the stance is wrong... however, ive personally seen this done quite often again a lapel grab, or choke... does that suit your needs a little better??]

I agree that understanding the nature of the attack is important. In a court of law, use of martial arts is considered the same as the use of firearms - your use of force must be commensurate to that of your opponent, and if you go knocking someone out (and they fall and hit their head) because all he did was give you a punkish push, you'll likely find yourself in a lot of trouble.

Nevertheless, in my training, I emphasize protecting your own body, and striking low with both hands leaves your own face open. In Europe, head-butts are a popular type of attack. It seemed to me that Scott's application ran the risk of accomplishing the very same thing on the attacker's behalf. When you strike the body low, it tends to fold in half (we see this type of technique demonstrated in Kusanku and Passai with the difference that, as opposed to Scott's technique, you have an elbow waiting for the opponent's face). If the opponent's hips are to move back enough to take his head out of range where it might hit your face, then the strike (and the opponent's reaction to it) must sufficiently displace his center of gravity. This would require a fairly strong strike even against a punking push (and would again open you to the liability of excessive force as mentioned earlier). There's a difference between doing these things in the dojo or at a seminar and doing them under real conditions. However, if you guys say you can do it, I'll have to take you at your word. I'm just saying I'm unconvinced.

[also, you may think that some moves in kata are only basics that can make up techniques, but i usually find that that stems from mis-interpretation of the moves in the kata... i know i used to have moves that i thought were just random basics thrown in the middle of 2 techniques, or a random piece of footwork, but once i learned what to look for, i saw that those pieces were really part of one of the techniques in the kata... they werent random at all... let me ask you a logical question though... if you have a random basic in your kata, what purpose would it have there if not to be a technique?? just to force you to practice it?? thats not usually the case at all...]

Kata teaches many things besides techniques. Attributes such as balance, movement, focus, concentration, coordination between different parts of the body, compression and expansion of koshi, etc., etc. Moreover, a movement from one kata may be combined with movements from other katas to produce techniques. To say "only basics" is to miss the point of basics. *Everything* consists of basics. The trick is learning how to use them to produce effective techniques.

[this is why i was saying earlier that you were getting too aggressive about this whole thing... it doesnt seem to me that youre really interested in learning, or discussing... if you were, instead of spending all your time telling scott that his technique against a push is crap, you wouldve thought to yourself, is it possible this really is a technique... i dont think i could do it against a hard push, but maybe something similar...]

I've been taught to question everything I'm told. The fact that I'm not ready to swallow whole the notion that Taiyoku shodan is the deadliest kata known to man doesn't mean that I didn't consider the possibility that it really is. In Karatedo Kyohan, Funakoshi himself says that Taiyoku shodan is an elementary kata designed to teach new students basic movement and as an introduction to the more advanced kata. (Admittedly, he also says that it's the "ultimate" kata for advanced practitioners but here I believe he was talking about the ultimately impossible task of trying to perfect even the most basic techniques. Of course I could be wrong [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]) Shoshin Nagamine (founder of Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu) and Chojun Myagi (founder of Goju-ryu) also claimed that Taiyoku shodan (they called it Fukyugata Ichi) was developed to teach to new students because the classical katas were too difficult for new students to learn. You must remember that Taiyoku shodan is a modern kata; it's not one of the classical old katas such as Naihanchi, Passai, Seisan, etc.

It's possible to reverse engineer almost any application into almost any kata sequence. In fact, I could claim that the simple act of walking - swinging my right hand forward as my left foot goes forward - represents a strike to the groin with a simultaneous activation of the spleen point. (Another devastating technique, don't you think? [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])

[and having the stellar knowledge of points that im sure you have,]

Now who's being aggressive? I never made a personal attack on Scott; I only said that I didn't buy his application and tried to point out the reasons why. Scott noted that it wasn't his concern whether or not I bought it because it works for him. He's quite correct on that point, I respect him for telling me so.

[you already know that those points are more active when the arms are up, so you would simply devise something with a little less motion, like a choke... and if youre still concerned about the foot, then put yourself against a wall for now until youre more used to it... thats all im saying... if you were really interested in learning, youd take more things into consideration before you told someone that they didnt know what they were doing... and you can argue all you like, thats really what you were saying whether you said it or not... ive known scott for going on 2yrs now, and hes never fed me any B.S. applications... he and i have talked at great length about a many of topics, and have exchanged many bodily fluids (just kidding)... but seriously...]

Again, I didn't tell Scott that he doesn't know what he's doing, I was merely trying to point out the problems I saw with the application. Apparently, you and he don't have those problems, and that's fine, more power to you. You needn't castigate me, however, simply because I'm not willing to accept everything I'm told without question. There's too much blind obedience in the martial arts as it is.

[one of the things i find very interesting, is that most guys dont think much about their katas... they dont use them, they only perform them for their rank, but if you talk bad about the kata, then theyre all of a sudden up in arms...]

As you seem to be about my questioning. Actually, kata has been the focus of my training for the past 15 years. (I'm too old for the sport stuff.)

[JA, may i be so bold as to ask your style... if you couldnt tell, im a kenpo guy myself...]

What kind of kenpo? American, Chinese, Okinawan, Ryukyu, Parker, Tracy??? Kenpo/kempo is a generic term simply meaning "fist art."

I consider my style as simply Okinawan karate. I started training in a Dillman school back in 1978-80. Back then, Dillman's only claim to fame was breaking ice with his elbow, and he taught a mishmash non-system that seemed to be loosely based on Isshin-ryu. From 1980-1990, I trained in Okinawan Seidokan whose katas are drawn from the Kyan line of Shorin-ryu and much of whose techniques are drawn from Motobu-ryu tuite. Since 1990, I've been training in Oyata sensei's Ryu-te (Ryukyu Kempo before Dillman appropriated the name). During the past 3 years I've also been involved in a study group with a number of Kishaba Juku Shorin-ryu practitioners. The school where I teach is still affiliated with Oyata, although I've personally withdrawn from his Association. Taika Oyata is an incredible martial artist, but I have a problem with the closed-mindedness of many of the Association members.

[as far as sound goes, ive got a tape i shot just 2mo ago, of jim corn doing a sound KO on one of his students... very impressive to see...as well as a pretty decent no-touch...]

I'd have to see it to believe it, and it would have to be done to a total stranger. Suggestion can be a powerful force, and what I call "true believers" are the most susceptible to suggestion.

[hey scott... i know a lot of dki have been talking about the fact that a lot of the no-touch stuff isnt practical... how about in a hold-up situation... he tells you to raise your hands, and you do.. only youre so good at projecting your chi, that he starts to get dizzy, and you overtake him... has anyone thought of that application yet... just a thought i had...]

Spoken like a true believer.

[later dudes...
sean.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, later dude.

--JA

[QUOTE]he tells you to raise your hands, and you do.. only youre so good at projecting your chi, that he starts to get dizzy, and you overtake him...[/QUOTE]

Uh huh. Well, here's a practical application of this: if you think you have the ability to make people dizzy through "chi projection", contact the James Randi Educational Foundation (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html ) and try to claim their million dollar prize for proof of "paranormal" phenomena.

Of course, they would like to set up a few controlled tests...but if you're willing to trust your life to this power against an armed attacker, I'm sure that'd be no problem.

Tom-san,

Actually that has been done. Randi showed some interest but, then backed out for some reason. I think that he was going thru some difficult legal times. He was kind enough to send some suggestions for a test and how to make it double-blind and whatnot.

The person tested claimed to be able to move people with his chi. He falied. Does this mean that it can't be done? Nah, its been done to me(KO'd) and it is very strange. I am a cetrified hypnotherapist, and a magician and do my fair share of debunking and exposing frauds. But there are those who can do it. I will contact some who are very good at it and suggest that we try again with Mr. Randi.

Scott

First two moves in Taikyokyu Shodan - a little interpretation of mine.

The block is a release from nearly any hold which the opponent is in front of you and close.

The left hand (forearm actually) smashes into the base of the skull.

The right hand, as an ippon ken, strikes the Tan Tien, Lv 10 or any appropriate point around that region. The hair, or cluster of vital points of the opponent is seized and the head controlled downwards. The right hand is applying pressure to the "fire point on their right wrist. I don't know if that will accomplish anything in the long run, but whatever is open could be attacked with a right hand technique that uses a lunge. GB 20, trachea, sternum, solarplexus could be attacked with a punch, elbow or bicep bump. The bicep bump obviously leads into more on the second lower block, which, as a basic bunkai is you spin them around, and knee them in the bakc of the head, attacking the medulla/brain directly. As for feet and attacking feet and legs on the points, any ideas anyone?

Kempoman and KenpoSecrets, way to keep your cool with JA. It's good to see respect and the Way is still held above all else within the martial arts world.
And by the way, where do you train? I am so dojo-less...

Peace and Love

Hi all....I have seen this particular KO of double ST 25's on several occasions and have to attest that the opponent does propel back several feet and falls to the ground. It doesn't always render them unconscious, but causes some serious pain.

dki girl

Good day all

First of all it would seem to me an open mind is required by anyone wishing to explore and study the martial arts. Especially in the area pf pressure points, which is not a common sport application, but rather a true study of the art of karate. So taking an approach that says this won’t work because, seems a little out of place here. Rather would it not be better to see why it would work and even better yet experiment and try it prior to passing judgement and questioning?

In terms of this attack I agree and have seen this outcome from a double ST25 attack. It like many attacks does not assure a KO or stun but it will get a strong reaction ie rapid and violent movement backwards and the attacker may even vomit.

With the opening move noted I also use the attack to the inguinal crease with effect and a similar response.

Good luck and keep an open mind it is the best training tool you have

Gordon Travers
York Karate-do
Advancing The Arts Through Research
GoJu Karate · Kyusho · Tuite · Self Defence
42 Goodmark Pl Unit 10
Toronto, ON M9W 6S2
Email sensei@yorkkarate.com />Web Site www.yorkkarate.com
Phone 416-834-7400
Affiliated with
Dillman Karate International
O.K.G.K.S

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kempoman:
All,

This form is know by many names in many systems and is usually the first kata taught to beginners. A series of low blocks(?) and punches done from a front stance in an H-pattern.

We all were taught that you are blocking a front kick and punching the attacker in the solar-plexus...over and over and over until the cows came home.

I would suggest that this kata has nothing to do with front kicks and punches to the solar-plexus, but is one of the most deadly kata taught.

Look at the first movement of the kata(not the down block). The first move of the kata is what is normally called "ready position".
This is where the fists shoot out in front of the body at about belt level and in some systems the left foot makes a small twist. Every movement in kata no matter how small or unimportant looking has meaning. This movement which is overlooked in most bunkai sets up the attacker for the next movement that looks like a down block.

When "ready position" is executed as shown the result is usually a KO. There are always at least three levels of bunkai for each move in kata. The first level for this move is for the fists to shoot out and attack a point that is about two finger widths on each side of the navel. This point is called stomach 25(St-25). The foot twist is on the large toe on the termination of the spleen meridian. The stomach meridian is yin/earth and the spleen meridian is yang/earth so you get a yin/yang attack. You also get three earth points(two stomach, and one spleen) so you have the makings of a KO. The stomach points should be struck down and out toward the outside of the body. The spleen point should be twisted with the foot.

As always the next move in a kata shows you what to do if your movement did not work as expected. When you attack the stomach points the body will bend and drop down placing the head around the area of the "fold" for the down block movement. Look closely at the position of the hands in the fold. They are perfect to grab the head at two key pressure points that release the muscles of the neck. The left(top) hand grabs the hair on the opposite side and digs the knuckles in at Gall Bladder 20(GB-20) which is located just under the occipitial bone about three finger widths away from the spine. The bottom hand crosses under the head and taps(strikes) the jaw at stomach 4(St-4). The down block and turn is executed and you can imagine what happens. The step and punch completes the technique and would be overkill.

Just the tip of the iceberg of how pressure points enhance the study of kata.

Let the questions commence!!!

Scott[/QUOTE]

Moving the attack from St-25 to the Liver points in the crease is another level up and you shouldn't have to use as much force. The attacks should come in a rapid 1,2 count. One have striking just before the other. The other way to almost guarentee a KO is to include the spleen points on the foot.
Kempoman

So I am unsure how to start this reply. I guess at the beginning. First let me say that I have never been taught that the low block in taikyoku was for a kick, although you could easily apply it that way and it would have the same effect as the technique that I have been taught. As long as the technique comes from the left side of your opponent and it is directed at your hara (or lower) then the low block will turn their body to show you their back, at which case you can strike any point you like, including the base of the skull to seperate the spinal column. Seems to be a lot less complicated, and just as practical. This was taught to me by a kyoshi, who teaches bunkai to the majority or the 7th dan and up instructors in both styles of tkd and several styles of karate. Pretty much anything that has forms which are descended from te. And yes it is a beginner form, of course it is, look at the stances and the duration, the complexity. Of course it has practicality, but it's practice, and that's about it.
Naihanchi now that's a different story, that whole kata is bunkai, I think kyoshi said something like 900 different bunkai he had come up with at last count, I don't remember but it is a pretty tremendous number.

hi im new to this forum and really like it. the double strike to the points low will bring the persons head forward and with the left hand you can catch the head on the right side of the persons head grabbing hair. The right hand will strike on the jaw where,if you had a mustach that went to down to the chin .there is a pressure point on the jaw line there and would set up a low block (neck crank). You then could step pull punch into his neck . If you did yoi to hard they would go back and pass out. This yoi is a dangerous strike,under this strike is heavy blood flow and intestines yoi is angled in thus aims a major blood flow. Grays Anatomy.

reaperblack:

If I may....

In the context of vital points or pressure points, the use of low level block "gedan bari" (and as a seperate point, the use of the term block is incorrect at it is an incorrect translation of the Japanese...but that is a different topic in and of itself) is quite effective against a kick.

If you combine taisabaki (body shifting)/ashi-sabaki (foot shifting) to angle away from the kick, the "low block" is perfectly suited and angled to strike Gallbladder-20 (GB-20) on the outside part of the thigh...about midway down. It also provides you with the correct angle and direction to make the most effective strike (that being in and down at a 45 degree angle).

The great part about this strike is that it will cause a loss of feeling in the leg. However, since it is in the air, the attacker really cannot feel this until they follow through and put the foot back to the floor. At this point (should it be executed correctly), they will collapse. Then the encounter begins to get really interesting.

Give it a try and see what your results are. Just start out at a slow speed as if you go full tilt and get it right, your training partner can really damage their knee and/or ankle.

Let me know the results you get.

With regards,

Michael

ps - I am not saying that any other combative interpretation of this movement/technique (oyo) is necessarily incorrect...just offering up another alternative in how to look at the seemingly infinite possibilities.

Interesting, we do practise both these strikes in bunkai, but not for this form. We practise this form for foundation of stances, timing, looking before you move, etc. The beginners stuff. But thank you for your points. No pun intended. I picked the point that I did because it becomes accessable and easily struck by using this block and step for either a kick or a low punch, which keeps things nice and simple. The essence of martial arts. I also chose this strike because it will end the conflict, and if it doesn't it gives you access to your opponents head to grab and do as you wish. Where the head goes the body will follow. Let me add an extention on here after the low block and strike don't retract your hand, open it (into crane hand) at the base of the brain stem and grab, pull your opponents head toward you placing your other hand against his chin, now turn and low block to the other side. you can use this as a throw or a neck snap if you wish.

I am not getting into the discussion of kata bunkais, as I am not into any karate systems; I more into the chinese systems. However I do want to make an interesting observation. As a person of chinese descent, I've grown in a martial-art environment where adults talk / demonstrate / argue / "fist-talk" about this or that technique / system and so on and read some old chinese martial arts novels where the charactors do exactly the same thing, though fictionally. That was old china of long ago. Now I see modern Americans doing exactly the same thing and in the same heated way -- deja vu! Men, martial arts men, ancient chinese or modern americans --- all the same. Now I know why I always here my elders call other members of the martial arts community -- Brothers!
Its good to see martial arts becoming a true cultural bridge.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:
reaperblack:

If I may....

In the context of vital points or pressure points, the use of low level block "gedan bari" (and as a seperate point, the use of the term block is incorrect at it is an incorrect translation of the Japanese...but that is a different topic in and of itself) is quite effective against a kick.

If you combine taisabaki (body shifting)/ashi-sabaki (foot shifting) to angle away from the kick, the "low block" is perfectly suited and angled to strike Gallbladder-20 (GB-20) on the outside part of the thigh...about midway down. It also provides you with the correct angle and direction to make the most effective strike (that being in and down at a 45 degree angle).

The great part about this strike is that it will cause a loss of feeling in the leg. However, since it is in the air, the attacker really cannot feel this until they follow through and put the foot back to the floor. At this point (should it be executed correctly), they will collapse. Then the encounter begins to get really interesting.

Give it a try and see what your results are. Just start out at a slow speed as if you go full tilt and get it right, your training partner can really damage their knee and/or ankle.

Let me know the results you get.

With regards,

Michael

ps - I am not saying that any other combative interpretation of this movement/technique (oyo) is necessarily incorrect...just offering up another alternative in how to look at the seemingly infinite possibilities.[/QUOTE]


'GB-20 is below the skull to the side?'

MF

Now I'm really going to rock the boat.
I DON'T BELIEVE IN KATAS. You people are going to say I'm crazy, I don't know what I'm talking about and so on!
Well, have you ever heard of JON BLUMING, known as the beast of Amsterdam? 10th dan karate 9th dan judo,(president of international budo kai kan). Well I have a tape of him being interviewed, and he states that "it's absolute nonsence to try and teach someone to fight with Katas, and that katas are tought just to pass the time and charge the students". He did state that katas were nice for supleness.
Sorry people but that's also my oppinion and experiance. Now I'm sure I'm going to hear some nasty things.

Good. Don't practice them. If you do it the Japanese, JKA way [perfection of character BS], I understand why. Once you are taught the old shaolin and okinawan ways, and how to anal;yse them, perhaps another MA like aikido, you may change your mind. If they are not for you, they are not for you. Interestingly, Bas Rutten is a fan.

What do you mean by fighting? Practicing a lock flow won't teach you how to kickbox either.

What are you training for?

Hi

I agree with the above.

The Japs who were given childrens karate by the Okinawans, ruined the image of Kata.

Also because it was assimilated by the middle class Japs like Kanazawa and Enoeda they never learnt their street fighting applications.

Go to Okinawan Karate or some of the briliant instructors who teach real applications.

not the watered down Jap garbage.

MF

To answer Mark Hill:
Believe me I USED to practice them a lot, but it's been years since I've stopped the katas. Actually I forgot most of them. BY "fighting" I mean "survival", outside a dojo in real life. Staying out of the hospital or worst.
I train in a gym 5 days a week most of the year. I'm a bouncer and a lot of my actual training is on the job experiance. I'm hitting close to 55 years of age,(although most people don't give me a day over forty), and it's time I retire. I can go back to the dojo and have FUN.

To answer madfranck:
I actually started in the Okinawan style of Kyokushinkai and then went on to other styles.

You don't think some of the real bunkai is brutal, focused for survival rather than sport or "perfection of character". Counters to the shoot, whips throws etc? I know you don't have to pracitce kata to do these. All I know is I'd rather have the crap kicked out of me than have my fingers ripped from my metacarpals, thrown head first onto the ground....

"Okinawan style of Kyokushinkai"

I thought Mas Oyama's style was very Japanese.

BTW I have a lot of repsect for bouncers who are alos MA's.