Posted by: BrianS
Boy dies from one hit
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/15/07 11:04 PM
Not at all uncommon. The right shot in the right location can kill, especially given a heat condition like this.
This kind of thing happens very often. Cops and prosecutors here the same story over and over again: "I didn't mean to kill him. I just hit him once".
This kind of thing happens very often. Cops and prosecutors here the same story over and over again: "I didn't mean to kill him. I just hit him once".
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/15/07 11:11 PM
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;107/4/782
Strikes to the chest can cause death in children a lot more than I thought.
Quote:
Statistics compiled by the US Consumer Product Safety Commission1 indicate that there were 88 baseball-related deaths to children in this age group between 1973 and 1995, an average of about 4 per year. This average has not changed since 1973. Of these, 43% were from direct-ball impact with the chest (commotio cordis);
Strikes to the chest can cause death in children a lot more than I thought.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/16/07 08:28 AM
A possible point that will do this is CV 17 on center line between the nipples. The hit, timed correctly with the electrical activity of the heart, causes R on T phenomenon which is a potentially lethal arhythmia. However, many points on the chest could distress a compromised heart. It is very sad when things like this happen obviously. It is a reminder to us all. In the absense of a defibrillator, a correctly placed and aimed strike to the heart shu point (UB 15) specifically on the right side, aimed towards the heart, can correct the problem. A witnessed arrest like this can also be corrected with a "precordial thump" which is a CPR move consisting of a hammer fist to that same CV 17 spot. When I say "can" I mean just that: possible, not guaranteed or will correct the problem.
Because of accidents like this, I think that dojos that train at higher levels of intensity, should have A.E.D. devices on site, and should have owners and senior instructors trained in their use and in CPR. Just my humble opinion.
Because of accidents like this, I think that dojos that train at higher levels of intensity, should have A.E.D. devices on site, and should have owners and senior instructors trained in their use and in CPR. Just my humble opinion.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/16/07 09:26 AM
Quote:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;107/4/782
Quote:
Statistics compiled by the US Consumer Product Safety Commission1 indicate that there were 88 baseball-related deaths to children in this age group between 1973 and 1995, an average of about 4 per year. This average has not changed since 1973. Of these, 43% were from direct-ball impact with the chest (commotio cordis);
Strikes to the chest can cause death in children a lot more than I thought.
to put that number in perspective:
Quote:
Killed by Lightning
Lightning-related fatality, injury, and damage reports in the US were summarized for 36 years since 1959, based on the NOAA publication Storm Data. There were 3239 deaths, 9818 injuries, and 19,814 property-damage reports from lightning during this period. On average, 90 people are killed every year in the U.S. by lightning. NOAA Technical Memorandum NWS SR-193
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/17/07 09:33 PM
Quote:We're not allowed to do this anymore... for fear that inexperienced First Aiders crack the sternum in their anxiety to resuscitate the victim.
A witnessed arrest like this can also be corrected with a "precordial thump" which is a CPR move consisting of a hammer fist to that same CV 17 spot.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 06:34 AM
That is right. It is reserved for advanced CPR practice. Maybe I should have said that. Where the domain of discourse was martial arts and not CPR, I addressed the technical mechanical aspect and not the practice aspect. Thank you for clearing that up in case anyone may have thought I was instructing them to do this.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 09:49 AM
So, Ed, are you saying that this only happens as an accident? I'm betting the same point in the chest is hit with the baseball on every occasion where this occurs... the results speak for themselves.
As for "putting it in perspective", you could have compared this accident with the number of people killed falling off bridges wearing red shoes... it's apples and oranges. If I didn't learn anything else from statistics class in college, it's that you can skew "raw numbers" to look like anything "in perspective".
It's probably too complicated to understand that the kids killed are doing the same "repeatable" movement, get hit at the same angle on the same point, with the same result. I suspect, but have no proof, that the speed of the baseballs was also very consistent.
The youth baseball leagues invoked a rule to force all the players to start wearing helments because of the number of deaths and serious injury from being hit in the head by baseballs, but that was a "repeatable injury"? I can't tell you how many kyusho points and DM points are located in the head and surrounding area without taking time to count, but they were protected by a helment because of repeatable injuries. Now, whether the force was delivered by a baseball or a fist, could make an arguable point, but I think you could see that "force is force" in that instance.
I agree that these accidents are tragic, and my heart goes out to the families of the children, but the argument regarding DM has always been whether or not the "strikes to a point" caused a repeatable injury, and whether or not you could train to deliver such a strike. I know it's a false premise to argue that it can "only happen as an accident"... as does anybody that practices kyusho jitsu or DM.
As for "putting it in perspective", you could have compared this accident with the number of people killed falling off bridges wearing red shoes... it's apples and oranges. If I didn't learn anything else from statistics class in college, it's that you can skew "raw numbers" to look like anything "in perspective".
It's probably too complicated to understand that the kids killed are doing the same "repeatable" movement, get hit at the same angle on the same point, with the same result. I suspect, but have no proof, that the speed of the baseballs was also very consistent.
The youth baseball leagues invoked a rule to force all the players to start wearing helments because of the number of deaths and serious injury from being hit in the head by baseballs, but that was a "repeatable injury"? I can't tell you how many kyusho points and DM points are located in the head and surrounding area without taking time to count, but they were protected by a helment because of repeatable injuries. Now, whether the force was delivered by a baseball or a fist, could make an arguable point, but I think you could see that "force is force" in that instance.
I agree that these accidents are tragic, and my heart goes out to the families of the children, but the argument regarding DM has always been whether or not the "strikes to a point" caused a repeatable injury, and whether or not you could train to deliver such a strike. I know it's a false premise to argue that it can "only happen as an accident"... as does anybody that practices kyusho jitsu or DM.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 12:00 PM
statistics can serve to give relative perspective. For instance, if many more car accident deaths are with people who don't wear a seatbelt, than with people who do - then it gives a logical indicator in the decision to buckle up or not.
However, there are always those who purposely choose to not wear a seatbelt because they read a story in the paper of someone trapped by the belt in their burning or submerged car. In that case, they are planning for the least likely odds by ignoring the more likely. ie making a justification.
and yes, the baseball to the chest is an accident since the pitcher does not and cannot plan to throw with the exact timing needed to hit at the correct heart cycle of the batter/ump.
I'd think the same holds true with a punch. you can train towards the theoretical proper speed, angle and point...but the timing is left to chance. other factors such as the chance of preexisting heart conditions and health would play a part.
someone simply training to hit very hard with deep impact also has a chance of breaking a rib, and the rib penetrating the heart or other organs. or a rupture to internals could cause failure.
training for deep impact, or training for chance timing...guess it comes down to choice...do you wear the seatbelt or not.
However, there are always those who purposely choose to not wear a seatbelt because they read a story in the paper of someone trapped by the belt in their burning or submerged car. In that case, they are planning for the least likely odds by ignoring the more likely. ie making a justification.
and yes, the baseball to the chest is an accident since the pitcher does not and cannot plan to throw with the exact timing needed to hit at the correct heart cycle of the batter/ump.
I'd think the same holds true with a punch. you can train towards the theoretical proper speed, angle and point...but the timing is left to chance. other factors such as the chance of preexisting heart conditions and health would play a part.
someone simply training to hit very hard with deep impact also has a chance of breaking a rib, and the rib penetrating the heart or other organs. or a rupture to internals could cause failure.
training for deep impact, or training for chance timing...guess it comes down to choice...do you wear the seatbelt or not.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 01:11 PM
I don't disagree that statistics can show trends, but you're using unrelated incidents to prove some kind of perspective. The correct scenario for comparison would be how many kids playing baseball were hit in the chest by a baseball and didn't die. Then you have "apples to apples" comparisons.
What you've done with the lightning comparison is like using "how many people drive red cars?", when the actual thing you're trying to figure out is "how many people got killed in wrecks driving red cars?" The missing fact would be the wreck... so you're trying to prove how many people were killed in wrecks, and then how many of those people were driving red cars. That tells you something more than the attributing something to the red car itself.
Statistically, using the right information you could determine how many died from heart attacks while driving a red car... how many pedestrians were hit by red cars... how many head-on collisions involved red cars and then use the "how many people drive red cars?" scenario to gain some perspective.
In this case, it's "how many kids play baseball... how many are hit in the chest with a baseball... how many die from being hit by a baseball... to how many die from being hit in the chest by a baseball..." You could even use the statistic of how many of the kids hit by a baseball were standing in the batter's box when hit...
Statistics involve "repeatable" information and their anomolies... not the field of dreams scenario where "She was from Iowa and I had once heard of Iowa"...
None of these incidents report the amount of force involved, the angle of inclination of the hit... a lot of very important details for determining the lethality of the hits and the differences in how the victim was actually struck.
DM training is a very repeatable skill, trained the same way, using the same angles, striking the same way... does that mean 100% success with a DM hit... no... but it provides a structure where the skill is actually practiced knowing what the expected results are.
We've had this discussion before, and you always try to take it out of the realm of comparison of the actual facts to isolated statistical anomolies. Force applied is a very quantifiable entity... if it hits at a 90 degree angle, it delivers 100% of it's energy... if it hits at 45 degrees, it delivers 70.7% of it's energy , at 30 degrees... half it's energy... and that's not real hard to understand. Applied to specific points in the body and skeletal structure of the body, why is it somehow suddenly an "unrepeatable skill"?
I would be willing to bet that if 100% of the information on these incidents were available, the angle of the hit, energy delivery, and velocity of the ball were all very close to the same in the final result. The differences would be attributable to the vectors determining the force delivery. Changes in the velocity of the ball would change the amount of force delivered, and the angle of inclination would determine how much of the force was delivered at the proper angle. It's simple physics and geometry.
What you've done with the lightning comparison is like using "how many people drive red cars?", when the actual thing you're trying to figure out is "how many people got killed in wrecks driving red cars?" The missing fact would be the wreck... so you're trying to prove how many people were killed in wrecks, and then how many of those people were driving red cars. That tells you something more than the attributing something to the red car itself.
Statistically, using the right information you could determine how many died from heart attacks while driving a red car... how many pedestrians were hit by red cars... how many head-on collisions involved red cars and then use the "how many people drive red cars?" scenario to gain some perspective.
In this case, it's "how many kids play baseball... how many are hit in the chest with a baseball... how many die from being hit by a baseball... to how many die from being hit in the chest by a baseball..." You could even use the statistic of how many of the kids hit by a baseball were standing in the batter's box when hit...
Statistics involve "repeatable" information and their anomolies... not the field of dreams scenario where "She was from Iowa and I had once heard of Iowa"...
None of these incidents report the amount of force involved, the angle of inclination of the hit... a lot of very important details for determining the lethality of the hits and the differences in how the victim was actually struck.
DM training is a very repeatable skill, trained the same way, using the same angles, striking the same way... does that mean 100% success with a DM hit... no... but it provides a structure where the skill is actually practiced knowing what the expected results are.
We've had this discussion before, and you always try to take it out of the realm of comparison of the actual facts to isolated statistical anomolies. Force applied is a very quantifiable entity... if it hits at a 90 degree angle, it delivers 100% of it's energy... if it hits at 45 degrees, it delivers 70.7% of it's energy , at 30 degrees... half it's energy... and that's not real hard to understand. Applied to specific points in the body and skeletal structure of the body, why is it somehow suddenly an "unrepeatable skill"?
I would be willing to bet that if 100% of the information on these incidents were available, the angle of the hit, energy delivery, and velocity of the ball were all very close to the same in the final result. The differences would be attributable to the vectors determining the force delivery. Changes in the velocity of the ball would change the amount of force delivered, and the angle of inclination would determine how much of the force was delivered at the proper angle. It's simple physics and geometry.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 01:31 PM
The only time wristtwister was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistake. 
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 02:03 PM
Well, Brian,
if you'd bothered to follow the discussion Ed and I have had over the past year or so, you'd know that Ed's contention was that a strike to the chest wasn't a repeateable skill that could cause the heart to stop. He's argued every theory outside of actually analyzing the information and making a determination of whether or not striking a DM point could actually cause commotio cordis with any repeatable certainty.
It's brilliant insights like that which make me realize I was wrong in thinking certain people might actually have some sense. It's an error on my part.
if you'd bothered to follow the discussion Ed and I have had over the past year or so, you'd know that Ed's contention was that a strike to the chest wasn't a repeateable skill that could cause the heart to stop. He's argued every theory outside of actually analyzing the information and making a determination of whether or not striking a DM point could actually cause commotio cordis with any repeatable certainty.
Quote:
The only time wristtwister was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistake.
It's brilliant insights like that which make me realize I was wrong in thinking certain people might actually have some sense. It's an error on my part.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 02:54 PM
One explanation from kata of the 1 (pause) 1-2 punches to the CV 17 point might be to increase the probability of hitting the point on the T-wave, thereby increasing the chances of cardiac arrest.
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 05:29 PM
Lies, lies and damn statistics...
Posted by: Aeras
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 05:54 PM
Easy solution...somebody write mythbusters. 
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 05:59 PM
Quote:
It's simple physics and geometry.
exactly. striking with sufficient impact, with an approximate but appropriate angle to an approximate but appropriate area, is wielding physics...the rest is left largely to chance in a chaotic moment.
The biggest problem with trying to compare an accidental baseball in the chest death to intentional dim mak, is the timing. There is no way someone can time a strike with a 200 millisecond tolerance. and thats what the study of this phenomenon says...the most critical thing about the whole phenomenon is the system being hit within a certain span of it's cycle. have a nother look at it...the link is floating around somewhere here or the other thread.
There is no way a pitcher could do that on purpose, so it's called a tragic accident. whether from a pitcher's mound or from grappling range, there is no way to know that critical window of cycle. therefore, it is left to chance.
Can you actually time strikes to capitolize on the bodily cycles of your opponent? I've heard of taking advantage of breathing cycles when you talk to boxers....but heartbeat and cardiac signaling? sorry, that goes too far 'out there' for me to buy into.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 10:15 PM
Quote:
striking with sufficient impact, with an approximate but appropriate angle to an approximate but appropriate area
How about striking to an exact location at an exact angle? That's how DM trains... Since you obviously don't train in DM, it's pretty heady to completely discount the training without knowing anything about it. The 12 DM katas are designed to get you to the "right place" to make that particular angular strike on a specific point, but you wouldn't know that... only that you don't have an explanation for the results, so it can't work.
Quote:
There is no way a pitcher could do that on purpose,
Another assumption on your part... what about "throwing at the batter?" I played ball most of my life, and that happened all the time. Was the pitcher trying to kill the batter... probably not, but you seem to have more information than anyone else about that, so how do you read the motives of a baseball pitcher?
Quote:
Can you actually time strikes to capitolize on the bodily cycles of your opponent?
The hitting points are designed on the "waxing and waning of chi", so the short answer is "yes". The meridians are operative on 2 hour cycles, and can be activated by striking other special points in the body to make them active... but since you don't believe in any of this, why bother with the detailed explanation? All you need to do to learn a lot is to read some acupuncture books and learn something about meridian theory... but, of course, you'd rather rail on the "can't" side of things than actually do some study and find out the answers for yourself.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/18/07 11:24 PM
again, the argument is not meant to be taken personally. I assume you strike hard and where it hurts - I'm not denying you that assumption.
first, I noticed a typo on my part - the window someone would have to hit within was found to be 20 milliseconds (not 200). The impact has to happen within this window prior to the T-wave peak.
How do you detect a T-wave peak by looking at someone? no known method I'm aware of - I assume the way the researchers detect it is with hooking up an electrocardiogram.
let's say you can sense someone's biorythms as accurate as an EKG. Human reaction times are in the range of 200 milliseconds. (not to mention adjustment for the time it takes to strike). Thats a magnitude slower than the T-wave window.
I can see what those numbers mean in my head...and I picture it as even more remote than someone being able to repeatably target punch 1 particular blade on an occilating fan set on hi speed. of course sometimes they will hit it by the laws of probability.
I don't think it's a pessimistic view. I can't see any theoretical or practical basis for making a connection between the commotio cordis / baseball to chest phenomenon to Dim Mak or any other striking method - other than the similarities in probability.
first, I noticed a typo on my part - the window someone would have to hit within was found to be 20 milliseconds (not 200). The impact has to happen within this window prior to the T-wave peak.
How do you detect a T-wave peak by looking at someone? no known method I'm aware of - I assume the way the researchers detect it is with hooking up an electrocardiogram.
let's say you can sense someone's biorythms as accurate as an EKG. Human reaction times are in the range of 200 milliseconds. (not to mention adjustment for the time it takes to strike). Thats a magnitude slower than the T-wave window.
I can see what those numbers mean in my head...and I picture it as even more remote than someone being able to repeatably target punch 1 particular blade on an occilating fan set on hi speed. of course sometimes they will hit it by the laws of probability.
I don't think it's a pessimistic view. I can't see any theoretical or practical basis for making a connection between the commotio cordis / baseball to chest phenomenon to Dim Mak or any other striking method - other than the similarities in probability.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/19/07 02:39 PM
Ed
Another way to look at it would be to compare the # of children to the # of adults that die each year under similer circumstance.
It could go both ways there---adults my not be as prone to such sudden deaths as children--presumably their hearts are stonger or they just have more fat protecting them....at least I do.
On the other hand they have a greater risk of having some kind of heart damage already--weakened hearts, prior injure, clogged arteries, etc. So it might get a "false" reading.
Not sure what the stats on adults would tell us---but it would probably be interesting.
Another way to look at it would be to compare the # of children to the # of adults that die each year under similer circumstance.
It could go both ways there---adults my not be as prone to such sudden deaths as children--presumably their hearts are stonger or they just have more fat protecting them....at least I do.
On the other hand they have a greater risk of having some kind of heart damage already--weakened hearts, prior injure, clogged arteries, etc. So it might get a "false" reading.
Not sure what the stats on adults would tell us---but it would probably be interesting.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/19/07 04:36 PM
how many adults do you know that play little league? 
Posted by: cxt
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/19/07 06:00 PM
Ed
Posted by: Pressurepoint
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 10:49 AM
There are major blood vessels and arteries + Nervepoints in the neck and throat. Not to mention about the adams apple.
killing is possible mearly with one finger.
Also I have had my lungs shut down with a single touch in practice. happily I'm still alive
Well ..that's life.
killing is possible mearly with one finger.
Also I have had my lungs shut down with a single touch in practice. happily I'm still alive
Well ..that's life.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 12:38 PM
Quote:
On the other hand they have a greater risk of having some kind of heart damage already--weakened hearts, prior injure, clogged arteries, etc.
No, the cartlidge and bones simply aren't developed in childern and young adults that protect the heart. It has nothing to do with "medical conditions".
Posted by: cxt
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 01:38 PM
Wrist
Understood.....I was playing "Devils Advocate and guessing why somebody might say that adults might be more vulnerable to certain things.
Guy with a heart condition might drop dead from something that wouldn't even make a healthy person blink.
Understood.....I was playing "Devils Advocate and guessing why somebody might say that adults might be more vulnerable to certain things.
Guy with a heart condition might drop dead from something that wouldn't even make a healthy person blink.
Posted by: oldman
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 02:09 PM
I have read that a person over 40 should be cautious about being choked, because chokes being applied "and released" too quickly can cause arterial plaque to dislodge and cause a stroke.
At a PP seminar I attended once they started with different warnings and disclaimers...one being don't do neck strikes on people over 40. Didn't keep them from whackin' me in the neck.
At a PP seminar I attended once they started with different warnings and disclaimers...one being don't do neck strikes on people over 40. Didn't keep them from whackin' me in the neck.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 02:54 PM
I've heard the same warning. Shouldn't even hit people over 40 - greater restriction than no neck points. In my school, half of the best practitioners of Kyusho are over 40. It would be a very sedate class if we didn't practice on each other. It is up to each person to set their own limits.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 06:59 PM
While realism is great in training, you have to be nuts to let people whack you on killing points in your neck and on your head. That's what the "training Bobs" are for... (the half man training dummies).
Anybody that wants to criticize that is welcome to... it's just easier to say "hitting here will do this" rather than "see, hitting here (on a live person) will cause a stroke... gee, I hope he'll be all right"...
Don't be mistaken into thinking that I won't knock the crap out of somebody during training, but there are certain places where safety is more than called for, it's demanded. If you are studying kyusho and knocking people out, you're killing brain cells every time you do it... so I'm sure it will get easier and easier to talk them into letting you knock them out... but just doing some of those things "because you can" isn't training... it's "showmanship", and I have no time for that kind of crap in training. You can learn to be accurate to hitting points on "training Bob" just as easily as "dumb old Fred", the new white belt...
Over the years, I've fought full contact, done Judo and jujutsu and been slammed on the mats, and been hit with weapons during training... but common sense tells you when and when not to allow something to go on that is dangerous. We've trained with "live blades" in Aikido, because of the techniques we were using, but it's one of those things where the safety of the technique determines its use, and the viability of actually using "real" knives.
Hitting points in the neck and on the head will kill you. There are plenty of them, and they are well documented... and I have about as good of control of my punches and strikes as anyone I've trained with, so that's not a question... but I don't strike those points because of the inherit danger of it. Could I... no problem... the difference is that training should be safe for both the uke and the tori... and regardless of the resucitation methods you use, there is damage done when doing kyusho... especially in those "vunerable areas".
Anybody that wants to criticize that is welcome to... it's just easier to say "hitting here will do this" rather than "see, hitting here (on a live person) will cause a stroke... gee, I hope he'll be all right"...
Don't be mistaken into thinking that I won't knock the crap out of somebody during training, but there are certain places where safety is more than called for, it's demanded. If you are studying kyusho and knocking people out, you're killing brain cells every time you do it... so I'm sure it will get easier and easier to talk them into letting you knock them out... but just doing some of those things "because you can" isn't training... it's "showmanship", and I have no time for that kind of crap in training. You can learn to be accurate to hitting points on "training Bob" just as easily as "dumb old Fred", the new white belt...
Over the years, I've fought full contact, done Judo and jujutsu and been slammed on the mats, and been hit with weapons during training... but common sense tells you when and when not to allow something to go on that is dangerous. We've trained with "live blades" in Aikido, because of the techniques we were using, but it's one of those things where the safety of the technique determines its use, and the viability of actually using "real" knives.
Hitting points in the neck and on the head will kill you. There are plenty of them, and they are well documented... and I have about as good of control of my punches and strikes as anyone I've trained with, so that's not a question... but I don't strike those points because of the inherit danger of it. Could I... no problem... the difference is that training should be safe for both the uke and the tori... and regardless of the resucitation methods you use, there is damage done when doing kyusho... especially in those "vunerable areas".
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 07:24 PM
Yes, I'm sure no one wants to go to training one nite and come home in a body bag.... least of all dumb ol Fred. I don't think Fred's wife and kids would appreciate it very much. I know his boss certainly wouldn't. After all, who's going to do Fred's job, now that he's dead?
Training injuries are a b!tch, accidents can happen, but death is permanent.
Training injuries are a b!tch, accidents can happen, but death is permanent.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/20/07 08:10 PM
Quote:
There are major blood vessels and arteries + Nervepoints in the neck and throat. Not to mention about the adams apple.
killing is possible mearly with one finger.
Also I have had my lungs shut down with a single touch in practice. happily I'm still alive
Well ..that's life.
It's possible to stop someone's heart with the fingers too,especially if they are on a keyboard.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/22/07 10:18 AM
You can also stop their heart by simply pulling the trigger... 
Posted by: LoMe
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 11/30/07 09:19 AM
Just shows how careless people can be..
Posted by: Spades_Melody
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 02/09/08 10:15 PM
so?
Posted by: Vennificus
Re: Boy dies from one hit - 02/10/08 04:59 PM
spades,
So what? Either a kid died, or it means the nerd with the bony fingers can do more damage than you thought.
bad news all round
So what? Either a kid died, or it means the nerd with the bony fingers can do more damage than you thought.
bad news all round
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/10/08 08:51 PM
Dim Mak cannot happen by accident, according to wristwister.
besides, the boy had a pre-existing heart condition, plus he was hit several times, not once.... so I'm not sure why this thread is in the PP section.
This tragedy shows that if anyone with or without training hit someone with arrhythmia in the chest, they could die. Since we don't know who does and who doesn't have a heart condition, then I think the best advice to walk away with is: don't go around hitting people.
besides, the boy had a pre-existing heart condition, plus he was hit several times, not once.... so I'm not sure why this thread is in the PP section.
This tragedy shows that if anyone with or without training hit someone with arrhythmia in the chest, they could die. Since we don't know who does and who doesn't have a heart condition, then I think the best advice to walk away with is: don't go around hitting people.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/10/08 09:41 PM
Quote:
Dim Mak cannot happen by accident, according to wristwister.
I have not said that, Ed... what I have said is that the probabilities of someone hitting a DM point at exactly the right angle, timing, etc. correctly is very remote.
YOU're the one that claims that strikes causing arrythmia, etc. are not repeatable skills. An accident can happen anytime, but striking a DM point at exactly the right angle, force, etc. is very remote. ...and if you read the thread through again, PP techniques aren't supposed to be practiced on people with health problems, children, or people over 40 using "neck strike" PP techniques.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/10/08 09:50 PM
sorry to misquote you, I was going by memory. Dim Mak strikes by accident are very remote. got it.
would you agree that someone even without DM/PP training, punching someone with a heart condition in the chest is a dangerous if not likely fatal act?
would you agree that someone even without DM/PP training, punching someone with a heart condition in the chest is a dangerous if not likely fatal act?
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/11/08 12:09 AM
To answer your question, absolutely... it doesn't require training to participate in actions that have nothing to do with being trained... it could have been a punch, a hit from a baseball, a hit from a hockey stick... any number of things to trigger this guy's death.
You seem hung up on the "death strikes" of DM and disproving their validity, and want to completely ignore the fact that there are lots of things that DM hits were designed to do that were precictable and non-fatal. Kyusho also has a ton of PP strikes that can do more than cause knockouts... but that's where the focus of conversation always drifts.
Clearly, you won't learn either skill at a McDojo... even with the seminars and BB club "training", or off the internet... so why keep hammering so hard on it? Kyusho and DM are both specific arts that are not designed as "fighting systems", but are enhancements to other fighting arts. They're not for beginners, and require a lot of specific study of the body, it's systems, a good background in TCM meridian theory, and isn't "coffee table conversation", even among martial artists.
While I understand your skepticism, you seem to want to define everything like an alka-seltzer... just add water and the fizz will fill up the glass... and, of course, it's mostly air... but unfounded skepticism is also a lot of hot air. If you want to learn, go find a teacher... don't depend on an internet bulletin board to learn all there is to know about martial arts... go get in the water.
While I work on computers all day myself, I don't depend on what I find on the internet to determine what I do and do not believe. I don't base my martial arts understanding on what I've read, but what I've practiced and trained in, and I feel no obligation to spread it all out so skeptic snipers can hang on every word to prove it wrong or fraudulent... You want information on an art, go study it...
It's really that simple. Then, you can confront the teachers face to face to disprove their teaching... all it takes it time and courage.
You seem hung up on the "death strikes" of DM and disproving their validity, and want to completely ignore the fact that there are lots of things that DM hits were designed to do that were precictable and non-fatal. Kyusho also has a ton of PP strikes that can do more than cause knockouts... but that's where the focus of conversation always drifts.
Clearly, you won't learn either skill at a McDojo... even with the seminars and BB club "training", or off the internet... so why keep hammering so hard on it? Kyusho and DM are both specific arts that are not designed as "fighting systems", but are enhancements to other fighting arts. They're not for beginners, and require a lot of specific study of the body, it's systems, a good background in TCM meridian theory, and isn't "coffee table conversation", even among martial artists.
While I understand your skepticism, you seem to want to define everything like an alka-seltzer... just add water and the fizz will fill up the glass... and, of course, it's mostly air... but unfounded skepticism is also a lot of hot air. If you want to learn, go find a teacher... don't depend on an internet bulletin board to learn all there is to know about martial arts... go get in the water.
While I work on computers all day myself, I don't depend on what I find on the internet to determine what I do and do not believe. I don't base my martial arts understanding on what I've read, but what I've practiced and trained in, and I feel no obligation to spread it all out so skeptic snipers can hang on every word to prove it wrong or fraudulent... You want information on an art, go study it...
It's really that simple. Then, you can confront the teachers face to face to disprove their teaching... all it takes it time and courage.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/11/08 01:18 AM
why? I already know how to knock someone out. the practice of 'death touches' never goes beyond belief and faith, since you can never really kill someone to demonstrate.
You can poke a nerve and make a student twinge in pain and then simply regurgitate some old book that says if you had done that on the right cycle, at 10pm when the moon is waneing, then it would have caused death in 3 hours. and the student gets wider-eyed begging you to show him that power.
great. but I'd rather spend my time hitting general areas hard to bring em down any time of day immediately.
why do I care that others are interested in it? I don't. I object to the underlying plea which Dim Mak rests upon - Everything I've seen of meridian and ki theory in general has been bunk....and it's annoying to see it trying to be passed off with a 'beyond science', 'ancient secret' mistique - particularly when the ideologies are tied to physical health improvement claims.
so I'll ask you the same: why do you care that I don't believe what you believe? I'm not trying to convince anyone not to believe in what they want....that would be dumb since people believe what they want anyway. I challenge the theories and only expect counter-argument.
If someone stated the Earth is round, and I took the position that it was a flat disc - they cannot say I'm wrong simply because I haven't circumvented the globe. however, if they pointed out all of the evidence of why it was in fact a sphere, then I'd have to find a way to round out my flat head and conceed you must be right.
You can poke a nerve and make a student twinge in pain and then simply regurgitate some old book that says if you had done that on the right cycle, at 10pm when the moon is waneing, then it would have caused death in 3 hours. and the student gets wider-eyed begging you to show him that power.
great. but I'd rather spend my time hitting general areas hard to bring em down any time of day immediately.
why do I care that others are interested in it? I don't. I object to the underlying plea which Dim Mak rests upon - Everything I've seen of meridian and ki theory in general has been bunk....and it's annoying to see it trying to be passed off with a 'beyond science', 'ancient secret' mistique - particularly when the ideologies are tied to physical health improvement claims.
so I'll ask you the same: why do you care that I don't believe what you believe? I'm not trying to convince anyone not to believe in what they want....that would be dumb since people believe what they want anyway. I challenge the theories and only expect counter-argument.
If someone stated the Earth is round, and I took the position that it was a flat disc - they cannot say I'm wrong simply because I haven't circumvented the globe. however, if they pointed out all of the evidence of why it was in fact a sphere, then I'd have to find a way to round out my flat head and conceed you must be right.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/11/08 06:37 AM
Quote:
I object to the underlying plea which Dim Mak rests upon - Everything I've seen of meridian and ki theory in general has been bunk....and it's annoying to see it trying to be passed off with a 'beyond science', 'ancient secret' mistique - particularly when the ideologies are tied to physical health improvement claims.
Well, you drive a car don't you? All you have to do is to put in the key, turn it on and drive away... on the other hand, if it's out of gas... it doesn't go... if the battery's dead, it doesn't go... if the air filter is clogged, it doesn't go... if the generator or cooling system aren't working, it doesn't go.
Disabling any one of those systems, or depriving the car of it's needs will stop it cold... and the body is the same way. You only know the way of "force delivery"... but you can pull the plug wires on your car, and it skips or stops running. If you drain the radiator, it runs until it gets hot and stops...
What you have confused is the idea that DM is only one skill, and depends only on belief. There's no "plea" to the effectiveness of DM, it's a trained skill... just like your hook punch... it just does the work differently... You want to knock off the tires, and I would be satisfied disabling the battery...
Sorry your skeptical nature limits your ability to understand things that have been around a while. "I don't need to study that" is a poor substitute for actual training... but keep the "flat earth" idea about fighting... You're all too comfortable with it to ever change.
Posted by: Vennificus
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/11/08 04:40 PM
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/11/08 08:13 PM
Yes, and karate means "empty hand"... what's your point? No art is so benign as to only use the techniques of it's "call sign".
Some schools of DM hit the "ridges" and others hit the "valley" in their techniques... so what does that mean?
The body is an intricate mixture of all kinds of systems... not just blood vessels, not just nerve centers, and not just "vital points"... It is made up of all kinds of systems, like the endocrine system... vital organs, like the liver and spleen.. an electrical system which causes the nerve synapses to occur so you can say hello to pain...
The opportunities to attack someone and do damage are endless... and the methods are countless... punches, kicks, one finger strikes, two finger strikes, elbows, knees... get the idea? Who might actually take advantage of the cycles of the heartbeat to launch an attack?... the breathing cycle? The fact that someone is standing with vital organs exposed to attack... what martial artist would actually do something like that?... a well-trained one... and one with more than one trick in his bag. "I'm going to whop the hell out of you" doesn't get it done all the time.
Young men fight from strength... old men fight from experience, knowledge, and understanding of how fighting is done... the most damage with the least effort. That takes both skill and knowledge of the body and it's systems.
DM is misunderstood by more people than know it, so some of the rants you get here are done more from ignorance than actually being able to disprove anything. Ask 90 percent of the "rookies" on the board what kyusho jitsu is, and they will tell you "pressure points"... it's actual meaning is "methods of hitting the body"... so go figure with the DM "press artery" understanding...
Like piloting a plane, you can't fly until you learn how... and there's a lot that goes into the process of learning how... and then there is "instrument flying" and "night flying"... so different training for different skills. Martial arts isn't any different from that...
Some schools of DM hit the "ridges" and others hit the "valley" in their techniques... so what does that mean?
The body is an intricate mixture of all kinds of systems... not just blood vessels, not just nerve centers, and not just "vital points"... It is made up of all kinds of systems, like the endocrine system... vital organs, like the liver and spleen.. an electrical system which causes the nerve synapses to occur so you can say hello to pain...
The opportunities to attack someone and do damage are endless... and the methods are countless... punches, kicks, one finger strikes, two finger strikes, elbows, knees... get the idea? Who might actually take advantage of the cycles of the heartbeat to launch an attack?... the breathing cycle? The fact that someone is standing with vital organs exposed to attack... what martial artist would actually do something like that?... a well-trained one... and one with more than one trick in his bag. "I'm going to whop the hell out of you" doesn't get it done all the time.
Young men fight from strength... old men fight from experience, knowledge, and understanding of how fighting is done... the most damage with the least effort. That takes both skill and knowledge of the body and it's systems.
DM is misunderstood by more people than know it, so some of the rants you get here are done more from ignorance than actually being able to disprove anything. Ask 90 percent of the "rookies" on the board what kyusho jitsu is, and they will tell you "pressure points"... it's actual meaning is "methods of hitting the body"... so go figure with the DM "press artery" understanding...
Like piloting a plane, you can't fly until you learn how... and there's a lot that goes into the process of learning how... and then there is "instrument flying" and "night flying"... so different training for different skills. Martial arts isn't any different from that...
Posted by: cxt
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/11/08 10:19 PM
Wrist
Problem is that I can effectivly measure the real world effects of Ed's "hook punch."
I can measure the force of the blow the torque effects the head as it moves under the blow---given height and weight and bone structure/density along with muscle density etc I can calculte the the probbaly effects.
My problem with much of DM/PP is NOT that the don't exsit--I'm sure that does--- its that the results are largely non-consitant from person to person and the effects largely can't be measured...not in the same fashion as direct percussion.
I've heard it said that if you "hit hard enough the whole body is pressure point"---a little over the top but a largely correct POV.
Problem is that I can effectivly measure the real world effects of Ed's "hook punch."
I can measure the force of the blow the torque effects the head as it moves under the blow---given height and weight and bone structure/density along with muscle density etc I can calculte the the probbaly effects.
My problem with much of DM/PP is NOT that the don't exsit--I'm sure that does--- its that the results are largely non-consitant from person to person and the effects largely can't be measured...not in the same fashion as direct percussion.
I've heard it said that if you "hit hard enough the whole body is pressure point"---a little over the top but a largely correct POV.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 12:06 AM
I don't disagree with that, it's just that DM and Kyusho are different "accents" to fighting. Do the techniques work... sure they do... Am I going to kill a student or practitioner to prove it... not a chance...
What gets lost in the discussion is the effectiveness of what you're doing. If you were being treated for lymphomic disease, you'd be a believer that it not only existed, but was an important part of your body functions. That system is barely skin deep, and easily attacked. There are nerve bundles and muscle groups that can also be attacked and render you practically a slug without much effort... but the reversal of those kinds of attacks can take months to repair. It's not like a knockout, where you hand the guy some smelling salts, slap him on the back and everybody has a big laugh at how he fell down.
DM uses a lot of hematoma strikes, and also use a lot of attacks that damage the lymph system and major organs... hence the "death in three weeks" scenarios. The more "instant techniques" attack the vagus nerve, causing a total body shutdown. It's dangerous stuff... and it isn't for the newbies to go poking around in people's necks to find their "soft spot"... and anybody that allows that to be done to them is just plain stupid.
Let me ask you this... do you stand there and let somebody knock you out with their right hook... just to see if it works? I don't think so... so why does somebody have to put somebody else's life in jeopardy just so some skeptic's mental masturbation is fulfilled? Personally, I don't care whether or not anybody believes in DM... the more skeptical the better, for legal reasons. It's never been a "public art" like karate or TKD, and for good reason... it's dangerous... beyond the accidental bruises and broken bones, etc. of full contact fighting.
Since most of your arguments center on "force", let me ask you a "medical question"... is there a difference between taking a shot and taking a pill of the same medicine? Of course there is... and the dynamics of that play out every day in a doctor's office. Which is the most effective?.. it depends on the kind of illness being treated, and the "miscellaneous effects" of the medicine... same with DM.
Try this... place your hands along your hairline and press while drawing your hands toward your temples. Then put your thumbs in the hollows of your temples, and draw them along the eyebrow toward the nose. Cup your hands, and slide your fingertips along where the ears attach to the head, and then to the hollows of the jaw. Notice the "hills and valleys" of the bone structure? Now, take a "meridian chart" and see how the meridians are routed along the side of the head and upper section of the face and down the neck.
Now, during a fight... do you think you can hit a particular point on the head? Pick one and try it with one of your training buddies... just light contact. Then, have a kyusho jitsu practitioner show you how to strike one for a knockout... but make sure it's tied to kata... so you can "fight your way to the point".
Now... if I tell you to hit point X at a particular time of day... what are your chances? Now, if I tell you that you can "eliminate the clock" and hit the point at any time... do your chances go up?... of course they do. That, in a nutshell, is DM in process... Knowing what to hit, where it is, and when... is the "magic formula" that Ed's been trying for two years to get out of me. He should have figured out by now that I'll never tell him... One reason is that he refuses to go train in it to learn... he want's the "short course"... and I don't respond well to "or else".
I'm sitting here with a pistol on my side. It's got 9 9mm bullets in it, and it will kill you. Since you know what a 9mm will do, you also have confidence that it will kill you if pointed in your direction. How... it will damage your body functions beyond repair... cause bleeding... damage internal organs... DM will do the same thing, only slower. You don't have to have confidence that the 9mm will kill you for it to work... and I don't need to kill anybody with it to show you it works. The good thing about DM is you don't need a permit to carry...
What gets lost in the discussion is the effectiveness of what you're doing. If you were being treated for lymphomic disease, you'd be a believer that it not only existed, but was an important part of your body functions. That system is barely skin deep, and easily attacked. There are nerve bundles and muscle groups that can also be attacked and render you practically a slug without much effort... but the reversal of those kinds of attacks can take months to repair. It's not like a knockout, where you hand the guy some smelling salts, slap him on the back and everybody has a big laugh at how he fell down.
DM uses a lot of hematoma strikes, and also use a lot of attacks that damage the lymph system and major organs... hence the "death in three weeks" scenarios. The more "instant techniques" attack the vagus nerve, causing a total body shutdown. It's dangerous stuff... and it isn't for the newbies to go poking around in people's necks to find their "soft spot"... and anybody that allows that to be done to them is just plain stupid.
Quote:
My problem with much of DM/PP is NOT that the don't exsit--I'm sure that does--- its that the results are largely non-consitant from person to person and the effects largely can't be measured...not in the same fashion as direct percussion.
Let me ask you this... do you stand there and let somebody knock you out with their right hook... just to see if it works? I don't think so... so why does somebody have to put somebody else's life in jeopardy just so some skeptic's mental masturbation is fulfilled? Personally, I don't care whether or not anybody believes in DM... the more skeptical the better, for legal reasons. It's never been a "public art" like karate or TKD, and for good reason... it's dangerous... beyond the accidental bruises and broken bones, etc. of full contact fighting.
Since most of your arguments center on "force", let me ask you a "medical question"... is there a difference between taking a shot and taking a pill of the same medicine? Of course there is... and the dynamics of that play out every day in a doctor's office. Which is the most effective?.. it depends on the kind of illness being treated, and the "miscellaneous effects" of the medicine... same with DM.
Try this... place your hands along your hairline and press while drawing your hands toward your temples. Then put your thumbs in the hollows of your temples, and draw them along the eyebrow toward the nose. Cup your hands, and slide your fingertips along where the ears attach to the head, and then to the hollows of the jaw. Notice the "hills and valleys" of the bone structure? Now, take a "meridian chart" and see how the meridians are routed along the side of the head and upper section of the face and down the neck.
Now, during a fight... do you think you can hit a particular point on the head? Pick one and try it with one of your training buddies... just light contact. Then, have a kyusho jitsu practitioner show you how to strike one for a knockout... but make sure it's tied to kata... so you can "fight your way to the point".
Now... if I tell you to hit point X at a particular time of day... what are your chances? Now, if I tell you that you can "eliminate the clock" and hit the point at any time... do your chances go up?... of course they do. That, in a nutshell, is DM in process... Knowing what to hit, where it is, and when... is the "magic formula" that Ed's been trying for two years to get out of me. He should have figured out by now that I'll never tell him... One reason is that he refuses to go train in it to learn... he want's the "short course"... and I don't respond well to "or else".
I'm sitting here with a pistol on my side. It's got 9 9mm bullets in it, and it will kill you. Since you know what a 9mm will do, you also have confidence that it will kill you if pointed in your direction. How... it will damage your body functions beyond repair... cause bleeding... damage internal organs... DM will do the same thing, only slower. You don't have to have confidence that the 9mm will kill you for it to work... and I don't need to kill anybody with it to show you it works. The good thing about DM is you don't need a permit to carry...
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 12:45 AM
Quote:
Knowing what to hit, where it is, and when... is the "magic formula" that Ed's been trying for two years to get out of me. He should have figured out by now that I'll never tell him... One reason is that he refuses to go train in it to learn... he want's the "short course"... and I don't respond well to "or else".
well, how can that be since I disregard the whole theory? I've never been looking for magic kill buttons. since you've spent your years chasing that grail, and I've spent them working to hit harder...I'd say you followed the easy out. but if both ways can get it done, then who cares, right?
As I said before, it's only the underlying theories I have a problem with DM/PP. The theories open up this whole mindset of magical thinking that carry into heathcare misconceptions, cult psychology, superpower thinking and ancient's knowledge worship that places people, particularly the young reading here, it places them squarely in the prime mindset of vulnerability of quacks and fakes that we can't deny exist in MUCH greater numbers than those who study such things but don't make a big deal about it or are looking to make moola.
Thats why, in regard to this thread topic, I say it's not pertinent or even relavent to DM/PP theory if someone with a heart condition gets hit on the chest by a 6th grade girl during recess and happens to tragically die.
it's bogus to illustrate stories like that as some kind of living proof of the theories. It would be like pointing out a story of a woman with osteoperosis getting punched in the sternum and it shatters as 'proof' that impact training can shatter sterums.
if I could get any of your secrets WT, I'd be after the Aikido ones - much more impressive to me than DM/PP claims.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 06:21 AM
Quote:
if I could get any of your secrets WT, I'd be after the Aikido ones - much more impressive to me than DM/PP claims.
Unfortunately, Ed, they come with the same laborious process that the DM study does. They have to be felt more than "taught".
We were doing a technique last night, and one of the students kept having trouble throwing his partner. I told him "change the angle you're leading him". His reply... "it can't be that simple"... so he kept on having trouble. Unfortunately, you can't hold their heads down and pour technique into their ear... somewhere along the line, you have to believe the instructor...
Posted by: Gavin
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 06:40 AM
Quote:
Unfortunately, you can't hold their heads down and pour technique into their ear... somewhere along the line, you have to believe the instructor...
Do you mean...*gasp*...having faith in something we don't yet understand? Do you that when people sometimes say, "Don't worry, it's Ok you won't fall, trust me!" that not everyone is setting you up only to see you fall flat on your arse? You saying that sometimes, just sometimes, it's OK to trust people and have faith that they're leading you to a nice place, EVEN if that place lays outside of our perception? God forbid you bloody heretic! I'm sure we have to live down holes, safe and protected from all the evil that this world has lurking outside! I thought we supposed to be cocooned by fear and suspicion....yes, I distinctly remember that. What's more, I remember I have to attack those that challenge my fear and suspicion! Are telling me that ain't so WT???
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 12:16 PM
Gav...
the best student I ever had was one that I would teach things and tell him... "You won't understand this for about 10 years". He fully accepted it and today is one of the best martial artists I've ever met.
He had absolute confidence in what I was telling him, and was more interested in learning the skill than trying to find out why it shouldn't work. He runs his own dojo now, and he still tells me..."I was doing something the other day, and I remembered something you told me years ago that makes sense to me now..."
That feels better than "it can't be that simple..." when you're teaching somebody who doesn't know something and they want to argue with you about how something's done. It's incredible that people no longer have faith in their teachers... but it's all through society... not just in dojos. There are so many scam artists out there that have "discovered the secrets of the most formidable fighting system..." that it's sickening.
My teacher used to tell me "you can do it that way, but after you UNLEARN it that way, try this and it'll work..."
Yeah, I know I'm a heretic... I should have been arguing with all those real masters I studied with instead of just takin them at their word...
the best student I ever had was one that I would teach things and tell him... "You won't understand this for about 10 years". He fully accepted it and today is one of the best martial artists I've ever met.
He had absolute confidence in what I was telling him, and was more interested in learning the skill than trying to find out why it shouldn't work. He runs his own dojo now, and he still tells me..."I was doing something the other day, and I remembered something you told me years ago that makes sense to me now..."
That feels better than "it can't be that simple..." when you're teaching somebody who doesn't know something and they want to argue with you about how something's done. It's incredible that people no longer have faith in their teachers... but it's all through society... not just in dojos. There are so many scam artists out there that have "discovered the secrets of the most formidable fighting system..." that it's sickening.
My teacher used to tell me "you can do it that way, but after you UNLEARN it that way, try this and it'll work..."
Yeah, I know I'm a heretic... I should have been arguing with all those real masters I studied with instead of just takin them at their word...
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 12:42 PM
Quote:
"You won't understand this for about 10 years". He fully accepted it and today is one of the best martial artists I've ever met.
With all due respect, (coming from a utilitarian standpoint), a 10 year model for understanding indicates either ineffective teaching or overly complex technique.
Good, functional technique should not take that long to understand or to be able to do.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 01:01 PM
Or that the teaching is layered and that every time you pass into a new layer your depth of understanding increases. You get loads of "Oh, that's what he meant" moments. Illustrates perfectly the point I was trying to make in my Taiji artlcle Here
I don't think many would say Bossman's teaching isn't functional....just get's more functional the more you think about it, practice and immerse yourself in it. But as you said,, but I agree with Grady...very reflective on society.
I don't think many would say Bossman's teaching isn't functional....just get's more functional the more you think about it, practice and immerse yourself in it. But as you said,
, but I agree with Grady...very reflective on society.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 02:06 PM
Wrist
I don't think we are that far apart in how we view things.
What I was getting at is that I often find a lack of consistant effect when using DM/Kyusho techniques.
Not talking about the percussive stuff--I'm talking about the more "light" touch/PP stuff here.
I can get a point on one guy and drop him to his knees while the next 3 it does nothing--or just hurts a little.
(could just be me---but a lot of the Kyusho stuff I have done to me is more in the "if you hit hard enough everything is a pressure point" catagory than not.)
A elbow to the face etc does have a largely/generally reliable effect.
Sure its not 100% either...nothing is.
Again, deling with the more light touch stuff here---its hard enough to get a punch in on bobbing weaving target--pretty sure its going to be even harder trying to hit a teeny-tiny little spot on the same guy trying to hit me as well.
Don't get me wrong---interesting area of study--just not sure of its ultility outside of the hands of an expert.
I've got a good friend that is really into Taji/and some other internal arts.
HIS teacher firmly belives in PP techniques---he just does not teach them, because HIS master back in china was the only one in their school that could get them to work in the chaos of an actual fight with any degree of relaibity.....and since he feels that his teacher was much more skilled than he is...he just does not spend much time on there use.
One his masters warnings about DM was that there are very few points that will cause instant death or incapaction----most take some time to take effect. And a guy dying 3-5 days after being DM is really scary---but does you little good if he already beat you death during the fight itself.
He also told a story of a 2 guys back in the day--having a fight and one "death touching" the other--the touchee begged the to "release"the strike and he was refused--so he went home got a meat cleaver and ambushed the dude--and killed him---beleving he was going to die anyway.
Maybe true--maybe not--but a good story none-the-less.
I don't think we are that far apart in how we view things.
What I was getting at is that I often find a lack of consistant effect when using DM/Kyusho techniques.
Not talking about the percussive stuff--I'm talking about the more "light" touch/PP stuff here.
I can get a point on one guy and drop him to his knees while the next 3 it does nothing--or just hurts a little.
(could just be me---but a lot of the Kyusho stuff I have done to me is more in the "if you hit hard enough everything is a pressure point" catagory than not.)
A elbow to the face etc does have a largely/generally reliable effect.
Sure its not 100% either...nothing is.
Again, deling with the more light touch stuff here---its hard enough to get a punch in on bobbing weaving target--pretty sure its going to be even harder trying to hit a teeny-tiny little spot on the same guy trying to hit me as well.
Don't get me wrong---interesting area of study--just not sure of its ultility outside of the hands of an expert.
I've got a good friend that is really into Taji/and some other internal arts.
HIS teacher firmly belives in PP techniques---he just does not teach them, because HIS master back in china was the only one in their school that could get them to work in the chaos of an actual fight with any degree of relaibity.....and since he feels that his teacher was much more skilled than he is...he just does not spend much time on there use.
One his masters warnings about DM was that there are very few points that will cause instant death or incapaction----most take some time to take effect. And a guy dying 3-5 days after being DM is really scary---but does you little good if he already beat you death during the fight itself.
He also told a story of a 2 guys back in the day--having a fight and one "death touching" the other--the touchee begged the to "release"the strike and he was refused--so he went home got a meat cleaver and ambushed the dude--and killed him---beleving he was going to die anyway.
Maybe true--maybe not--but a good story none-the-less.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 07:58 PM
Quote:
I don't think we are that far apart in how we view things.
Seek therapy... there are people out there that can help you...
Quote:
What I was getting at is that I often find a lack of consistant effect when using DM/Kyusho techniques.
Not talking about the percussive stuff--I'm talking about the more "light" touch/PP stuff here.
That may have more to do with experience in the technique than effectiveness. Also, there are people out there that PP techniques simply don't work on the way they do on "ordinary people". One of my jujutsu students is so pliable that I can twist his wrist almost twice as far as any other student's before it actually affects his movement or balance. He's just flexible... and some people simply aren't "reactive" to PP techniques. That's why the angles, etc. have to be correct... if they're not... you're going to have that same problem all the time.
Quote:
Don't get me wrong---interesting area of study--just not sure of its ultility outside of the hands of an expert.
Well... you have that right... it's definitely an art requiring expertise and precise technique. That's why it's taught through kata... developing the fighting skills to open up the opportunities for the DM strikes. Where kyusho principally occupies itself with process and location... DM is a very precise art using combinations of techniques to execute strikes to exact locations, depths, at specific angles, and to cause a specific "problem".
Quote:
One his masters warnings about DM was that there are very few points that will cause instant death or incapaction----most take some time to take effect. And a guy dying 3-5 days after being DM is really scary---but does you little good if he already beat you death during the fight itself.
DM was never designed to be a "self defense"... it' was designed to be an art of assasination. More often than not, the person delivering the strike was killed or imprisoned... for it was a political tool, and used to eliminate "troublesome" people who caused problems. They were the original kamikazes... for they were often killed before the person they killed had died. Most uses of DM were suicide missions.
I can believe the story about your friends teacher being the only one that could make PP techniques work reliably... I've seen it many times over the years.
Let me make this simple... not everyone is good at math... not everyone is a mechanic... not everyone is a singer... but they can learn those skills if they apply themselves. How good they are at them later on depends on how much and how well they practice them. I'm good at jujutsu and Aikido because I understand force dynamics and redirection. I'm good at karate because I understand force delivery and body mechanics. I wasn't born that way... I had to train to learn all I know, and I had to look for the best instruction I could find... which I did.
I'll pray for you over having "my view" of things...
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 09:07 PM
Quote:
DM was never designed to be a "self defense"... it' was designed to be an art of assasination. More often than not, the person delivering the strike was killed or imprisoned... for it was a political tool, and used to eliminate "troublesome" people who caused problems. They were the original kamikazes... for they were often killed before the person they killed had died. Most uses of DM were suicide missions.
got a source for that info? or was that lore handed down word of mouth to you?
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 09:34 PM
Quote:Quote:
DM was never designed to be a "self defense"... it' was designed to be an art of assasination. More often than not, the person delivering the strike was killed or imprisoned... for it was a political tool, and used to eliminate "troublesome" people who caused problems. They were the original kamikazes... for they were often killed before the person they killed had died. Most uses of DM were suicide missions.
got a source for that info? or was that lore handed down word of mouth to you?
WHAT'S MY INITIALS?
Damn straight!!!
Posted by: cxt
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/12/08 10:36 PM
Wrist
"seek therapy"
That is kinda the problem---I can't remember if I'm thinking like you because I have taken my meds---or because I forgot to take them
I'll take all the prayers I can get----I'm already paying off my karma at vastly accelerated rate.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/13/08 02:43 AM
Stay off the meds mate....you'll smile more!
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/14/08 09:07 PM
Ed, I won't give you my sources, because they were given to me and not to you. They are published works that were sometimes comical translations of Chinese texts, but the information was accurate, and contains not only the location of the DM points, but the information to make it work.
The summary is written in my private notes as:
Chang San Feng, was born in the Lung Hu Shan of Hiangsi Province in 1247, during the period of the Emperor of Li Chung of the Southern Dynasty. He was asked to be commanding general of the country to conquer a powerful tribe that was causing trouble, but he declined. Instead, he passed the exam to become an officer in the royal court and to continue his work on his particular style of hitting points.
A dedicated Daoist, he regularly practiced his particular style of Tai Chi and hitting points, and studied the hitting points style of someone who had come before him named Feng Tao Yi. The study of his book developed into what we know today as the 36 vital points, but he continued to work on the hitting points based on the medical information developed by Dr. Pin Chuh (300 BC) and Dr. Hua Tao (born 190 AD).
The hitting points information was passed on to only his own students, for he feared the information falling into the wrong hands and jeopardizing his or the Emperor’s life. Being an excellent military man, he realized the opportunity it presented to execute military operations using one skilled fighter rather than sending in hundreds of troops.
The process was to send in one emissary to negotiate with the other side and to send as his bodyguard, a fighter skilled in the hitting points. Once the main point was hit by the skilled fighter, the opponent would be badly injured resulting in death or being crippled. Once hit, there was no sign of apparent wound outside the body, but internally, he was seriously wounded or dying from having his internal organs damaged or smashing a major blood vessel, causing internal bleeding.
The art was so effective, that the legends of Dim Hsueh grew to the proportions that people feared that simply the waving of the hand of the practitioner could cause people to die. For that reason alone, there was a reluctance of teachers later on to pass the information on to anyone other than exceptional students, usually family members, who could be trusted not to misuse the skills.
I don't ask you to believe anything any more Ed... it always just becomes the next point of you arguing that it's not true... so go ahead and call this rubbish, but your google-fu skills don't work on my room full of books and private notes. You seem to think you're the only one that is capable of smelling out a faker or doing research, but having been around MA since 1962, I've seen them all... both the ones that actually had something, and the ones that were trying to be larger than life.
It's just a suggestion, but you might actually learn more by absorbing some information rather than trying to prove everybody that makes a statement is lying. That's really tiresome.
The summary is written in my private notes as:
Chang San Feng, was born in the Lung Hu Shan of Hiangsi Province in 1247, during the period of the Emperor of Li Chung of the Southern Dynasty. He was asked to be commanding general of the country to conquer a powerful tribe that was causing trouble, but he declined. Instead, he passed the exam to become an officer in the royal court and to continue his work on his particular style of hitting points.
A dedicated Daoist, he regularly practiced his particular style of Tai Chi and hitting points, and studied the hitting points style of someone who had come before him named Feng Tao Yi. The study of his book developed into what we know today as the 36 vital points, but he continued to work on the hitting points based on the medical information developed by Dr. Pin Chuh (300 BC) and Dr. Hua Tao (born 190 AD).
The hitting points information was passed on to only his own students, for he feared the information falling into the wrong hands and jeopardizing his or the Emperor’s life. Being an excellent military man, he realized the opportunity it presented to execute military operations using one skilled fighter rather than sending in hundreds of troops.
The process was to send in one emissary to negotiate with the other side and to send as his bodyguard, a fighter skilled in the hitting points. Once the main point was hit by the skilled fighter, the opponent would be badly injured resulting in death or being crippled. Once hit, there was no sign of apparent wound outside the body, but internally, he was seriously wounded or dying from having his internal organs damaged or smashing a major blood vessel, causing internal bleeding.
The art was so effective, that the legends of Dim Hsueh grew to the proportions that people feared that simply the waving of the hand of the practitioner could cause people to die. For that reason alone, there was a reluctance of teachers later on to pass the information on to anyone other than exceptional students, usually family members, who could be trusted not to misuse the skills.
I don't ask you to believe anything any more Ed... it always just becomes the next point of you arguing that it's not true... so go ahead and call this rubbish, but your google-fu skills don't work on my room full of books and private notes. You seem to think you're the only one that is capable of smelling out a faker or doing research, but having been around MA since 1962, I've seen them all... both the ones that actually had something, and the ones that were trying to be larger than life.
It's just a suggestion, but you might actually learn more by absorbing some information rather than trying to prove everybody that makes a statement is lying. That's really tiresome.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/14/08 10:30 PM
Thanks Grady, I know of some of the sources you are alluding to. many are found here, for those interested:
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm
I'll just leave it at that. Thanks again.
http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm
I'll just leave it at that.
Thanks again.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/14/08 11:14 PM
*words*
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/15/08 12:11 AM
There are about 7 different major schools of Tai Chi, and umpteen different "Wushus"... but the lineage of hitting points goes past the legends of Chang San Feng. Many of the references in your article link was the author quoting himself and listing it as a reference. I stopped counting at 6 different times...
Like everything else in martial arts, I'm sure that somebody is claiming credit for inventing Chen style, Yang Style, Wu/Hao style, Wu style, Sun style, and Cheng Man style... and all of them invented Tai Chi...
Did each one of them invent DM too? I'm curious, because my notes are pretty clear about the lineage of the information and basis of Chang San Feng's system of hitting points. The article from your link seems to be circular attempts to discredit him.
The question was about DM, not the origins of Tai Chi... and while there are legends aplenty out there, the consistency of the 36 hitting points is found all the way through almost every fighting system I've seen in my 45 years of study. There are more points than that, but the central basis of DM is found in those points... and those defined in the acupuncture needling techniques and angles.
The reasons the angles are so important is that they "connect" different combinations of tissue and nerves to cause the DM effect. That's why the medical basis of Dr Pin Chuh and Dr. Hua Tao's information was important. Chang San Feng correlated all that information... so while he didn't "invent" anything, he "understood" what he discovered and converted the knowledge into DM fighting skills.
Like everything else in martial arts, I'm sure that somebody is claiming credit for inventing Chen style, Yang Style, Wu/Hao style, Wu style, Sun style, and Cheng Man style... and all of them invented Tai Chi...
Did each one of them invent DM too? I'm curious, because my notes are pretty clear about the lineage of the information and basis of Chang San Feng's system of hitting points. The article from your link seems to be circular attempts to discredit him.
The question was about DM, not the origins of Tai Chi... and while there are legends aplenty out there, the consistency of the 36 hitting points is found all the way through almost every fighting system I've seen in my 45 years of study. There are more points than that, but the central basis of DM is found in those points... and those defined in the acupuncture needling techniques and angles.
The reasons the angles are so important is that they "connect" different combinations of tissue and nerves to cause the DM effect. That's why the medical basis of Dr Pin Chuh and Dr. Hua Tao's information was important. Chang San Feng correlated all that information... so while he didn't "invent" anything, he "understood" what he discovered and converted the knowledge into DM fighting skills.
Posted by: Ed_Morris
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/15/08 07:20 AM
that's the nature of ledgends that are declared immortal - they have done everything depending on whatever point of view the person is writing from.
If accupuncture is proof of DM theory, then what I'd really like to see is an unbiased study proving accupuncture. not 1000 year old lore proving legends. The ancient Chinese were obsessed with longevity and it's ironic they found it when embracing the methods of the west in the past 100 or so years.
If accupuncture is proof of DM theory, then what I'd really like to see is an unbiased study proving accupuncture. not 1000 year old lore proving legends. The ancient Chinese were obsessed with longevity and it's ironic they found it when embracing the methods of the west in the past 100 or so years.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/15/08 12:26 PM
Well, most legends have some basis in fact... they are simply embellished until they reach the unbelievable... but that's not my point.
You're all about research into different subjects, but it's disingenuous when somebody writes half a dozen articles, and sets up a couple of websites and then cites them as proof of their article. I don't have any problem with your reference disputing Chang San Feng's authorship of Tai Chi... it's an argument that's been going on for years, but I have a problem with him creating "circular proofs" in which he's the author.
That would be like you writing half a dozen articles on Goju kata, and then proving your version of the bunkai using those articles as "proof"... You hammer me all the time about "independent" tests, and "unbiased" assessments, and that article had the author's finger in the pie everywhere I looked.
Sure, point of view has a lot to do with what you believe, but your google-fu skills are slipping if you miss something that obvious.
You're all about research into different subjects, but it's disingenuous when somebody writes half a dozen articles, and sets up a couple of websites and then cites them as proof of their article. I don't have any problem with your reference disputing Chang San Feng's authorship of Tai Chi... it's an argument that's been going on for years, but I have a problem with him creating "circular proofs" in which he's the author.
That would be like you writing half a dozen articles on Goju kata, and then proving your version of the bunkai using those articles as "proof"... You hammer me all the time about "independent" tests, and "unbiased" assessments, and that article had the author's finger in the pie everywhere I looked.
Sure, point of view has a lot to do with what you believe, but your google-fu skills are slipping if you miss something that obvious.
Posted by: BodhiHuss
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/15/08 01:41 PM
Grady,
Run, don't walk to Barnes & Noble and buy Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 16, Number 4--read the article by Douglas Wile called "Taijiquan and Daoism from religion to martial art and martial art to religion". It will change your entire perspective of the history of Tai Chi Chuan. I won't reprint any of it, but one blogger discusses it here: http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/category/taijiquan/
Basically, the standard history of Tai Chi Chuan, Taoism, Chang San Feng, etc, is extremely unreliable. Any reference to Tai Chi history or Chang San Feng as a supporting argument for this thread actually demonstrates less credibility.
If you really think your private texts and notes are historically accurate, you may consider writing a response to Mr. Wile's article. I'm sure he would be interested in your findings.
Run, don't walk to Barnes & Noble and buy Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 16, Number 4--read the article by Douglas Wile called "Taijiquan and Daoism from religion to martial art and martial art to religion". It will change your entire perspective of the history of Tai Chi Chuan. I won't reprint any of it, but one blogger discusses it here: http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/category/taijiquan/
Basically, the standard history of Tai Chi Chuan, Taoism, Chang San Feng, etc, is extremely unreliable. Any reference to Tai Chi history or Chang San Feng as a supporting argument for this thread actually demonstrates less credibility.
If you really think your private texts and notes are historically accurate, you may consider writing a response to Mr. Wile's article. I'm sure he would be interested in your findings.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/15/08 08:51 PM
James,
my approach to things like this is sort of like "who invented the shomen strike?" Hell... who cares... it is what it is, and the definition of who exactly invented the movement isn't really important. OSensei is credited with "inventing Aikido", but he assembled the knowledge of a lot of people, added his own twists and turns, and viola... Aikido was born. It isn't Daito Ryu... it isn't swordfighting... but it has all those elements in it.
As long as I've been rubbing elbows with Tai Chi, Chang San Feng has been credited with it's "invention", as such. I'm sure it's just like karate, where the "Joe Blow" style was once "Knarley Ned's student's system that was adapted by Chang and modified from the information he learned from Feng Tao Yi's book on hitting points. None of this stuff is stagnant. Every teacher has nuances and differences even from their own teachers.
What I take offense at, is that somehow there has to be a book written about something with footnotes before something is "true". I've got notes written from martial arts camps, seminars, and private teachings that have never been published... and it's all good information. Should I consider it all "untrue" just because it's not published? I don't think so...
I don't really care if the inventer of Tai Chi was Bozo the Clown, as long as the information I have works. From everything I've seen, it does... History is always written by "the winners" anyway, so it's colored to make the "winner" look good...
What was being challenged in this latest move off topic, was the veracity of the statement that DM was not a self-defense art, but the art of assisination. The logic and historical data seems to back it up, but since the Chinese didn't make footnotes back then, I'm sure there's a text somewhere by some remote PhD that has a different opinion.
BFD...
my approach to things like this is sort of like "who invented the shomen strike?" Hell... who cares... it is what it is, and the definition of who exactly invented the movement isn't really important. OSensei is credited with "inventing Aikido", but he assembled the knowledge of a lot of people, added his own twists and turns, and viola... Aikido was born. It isn't Daito Ryu... it isn't swordfighting... but it has all those elements in it.
As long as I've been rubbing elbows with Tai Chi, Chang San Feng has been credited with it's "invention", as such. I'm sure it's just like karate, where the "Joe Blow" style was once "Knarley Ned's student's system that was adapted by Chang and modified from the information he learned from Feng Tao Yi's book on hitting points. None of this stuff is stagnant. Every teacher has nuances and differences even from their own teachers.
What I take offense at, is that somehow there has to be a book written about something with footnotes before something is "true". I've got notes written from martial arts camps, seminars, and private teachings that have never been published... and it's all good information. Should I consider it all "untrue" just because it's not published? I don't think so...
I don't really care if the inventer of Tai Chi was Bozo the Clown, as long as the information I have works. From everything I've seen, it does... History is always written by "the winners" anyway, so it's colored to make the "winner" look good...
What was being challenged in this latest move off topic, was the veracity of the statement that DM was not a self-defense art, but the art of assisination. The logic and historical data seems to back it up, but since the Chinese didn't make footnotes back then, I'm sure there's a text somewhere by some remote PhD that has a different opinion.
BFD...
Posted by: Vennificus
Re: Boy with arrhythmia dies from several hits - 02/16/08 09:27 PM
I agree,