Posted by: BrianS
Pressure point fighting
Posted by: underdog
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/26/07 07:13 AM
I liked those clips. Theo http://www.kyushospace.com/profile.aspx?id_user=109 has been developing some new instructional materials. He has good skills. If these are a sample of his production talent, a school would be well served to include his stuff. I thought he should have included the point names, even if they wouldn't be in English. He is from Belgium.
Why don't you pick a clip once a month or every other month or so for PP? You do a better job at it than I do.
Red Sox beat the Rockies 2-1.
Why don't you pick a clip once a month or every other month or so for PP? You do a better job at it than I do.
Red Sox beat the Rockies 2-1.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 12:36 AM
Pressure point fighting could be a good practice, however, I have never seen it.
I have seen many videos of pressure point instructors who know where and how to hit, then they have a student of theirs stand in front of them while they practice on them. Is this good practice? I think not, I think it's irresponsible and abusive.
Four and five pressure point combo's would only happen theoretically.
I have seen many videos of pressure point instructors who know where and how to hit, then they have a student of theirs stand in front of them while they practice on them. Is this good practice? I think not, I think it's irresponsible and abusive.
Four and five pressure point combo's would only happen theoretically.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 08:37 AM
Hmmm. I wish I knew what it was that you were expecting to see from pressure points.
When I see a demonstration of Aikido, or attend a seminar that has an Aikido session, the instructor will demonstrate that which is to be practiced, on one of his own students. It doesn't mean the technique wouldn't work on someone else, it just means that it is easy to demonstrate on someone who's ability to fall you can trust, and who will give you what you need to make a good demonstration. I never thought of that as a bad thing.
To go a step further, when I see an Aikido person teaching pressure point techniques, they show how they enhance their Aikido. They don't suddenly stop doing Aikido and just start hitting pressure points as if they thought pressure points was a complete style or system.
What is it that you would like to see? I'm just not getting the problem. If it is a question of not knowing what the end result would look like for a pressure point practitioner doing a technique, I'll find some material for you that is in a more complete martial arts context and not in isolation like the clips I posted that were not helpful.
If it is just that you KNOW what to expect but you disagree that pressure points are worth the time to develop and train, then fine. I'll let it be.
My Red Sox did it in 4! Go Sox. Go Pats.
When I see a demonstration of Aikido, or attend a seminar that has an Aikido session, the instructor will demonstrate that which is to be practiced, on one of his own students. It doesn't mean the technique wouldn't work on someone else, it just means that it is easy to demonstrate on someone who's ability to fall you can trust, and who will give you what you need to make a good demonstration. I never thought of that as a bad thing.
To go a step further, when I see an Aikido person teaching pressure point techniques, they show how they enhance their Aikido. They don't suddenly stop doing Aikido and just start hitting pressure points as if they thought pressure points was a complete style or system.
What is it that you would like to see? I'm just not getting the problem. If it is a question of not knowing what the end result would look like for a pressure point practitioner doing a technique, I'll find some material for you that is in a more complete martial arts context and not in isolation like the clips I posted that were not helpful.
If it is just that you KNOW what to expect but you disagree that pressure points are worth the time to develop and train, then fine. I'll let it be.
My Red Sox did it in 4! Go Sox. Go Pats.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 09:45 AM
I think the issue is that the light tap demo's are only ever done on the demonstrators own students. It has been suggested many times in the past that LTKO's have more to with pre-conditioned responses than real world combat effective martial arts. What I think Brian is suggesting is that he would like to see a demo such as this performed on an impartial potentially unconditioned Uke and thus eliminating the chance that people are just falling over because of some subliminal suggestion which has knowingly and unknowingly be placed there.
I personally would like to see this demo's done in a dynamic free flowing "Alive" environment where the Uke responds in a manner that my experience would consider to be realistic. I'd like to have a random attack thrown, not necessarily at full power, but hard enough to get the defenders juices flowing a bit so that they respond subconsciously and intuitively. I would then like to see the Uke make some effort to respond to the fact that someone is trying to K.O them. A lot of demo's I see the Uke throws one attack and then lets the defender hit them. That I think would greatly effect the ability to access the follow up targets off of the initial strike.
At the end of the day I think we need the demo's to be a lot less scripted, more contact, more dynamic and more realistic. I think that would put a lot of the critics minds at rest.
I have no idea what this Red Sox business is all about, at first I thought it was a private joke between you and Brian, but you recently used it to communicate with me. Could you share the joke so I can have a giggle as well...otherwise it does seem a little belittling and that would be a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black. Wouldn't ya think?
I personally would like to see this demo's done in a dynamic free flowing "Alive" environment where the Uke responds in a manner that my experience would consider to be realistic. I'd like to have a random attack thrown, not necessarily at full power, but hard enough to get the defenders juices flowing a bit so that they respond subconsciously and intuitively. I would then like to see the Uke make some effort to respond to the fact that someone is trying to K.O them. A lot of demo's I see the Uke throws one attack and then lets the defender hit them. That I think would greatly effect the ability to access the follow up targets off of the initial strike.
At the end of the day I think we need the demo's to be a lot less scripted, more contact, more dynamic and more realistic. I think that would put a lot of the critics minds at rest.
Quote:
My Red Sox did it in 4! Go Sox. Go Pats.
I have no idea what this Red Sox business is all about, at first I thought it was a private joke between you and Brian, but you recently used it to communicate with me. Could you share the joke so I can have a giggle as well...otherwise it does seem a little belittling and that would be a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black. Wouldn't ya think?
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 10:08 AM
Quote:
I think the issue is that the light tap demo's are only ever done on the demonstrators own students. It has been suggested many times in the past that LTKO's have more to with pre-conditioned responses than real world combat effective martial arts. What I think Brian is suggesting is that he would like to see a demo such as this performed on an impartial potentially unconditioned Uke and thus eliminating the chance that people are just falling over because of some subliminal suggestion which has knowingly and unknowingly be placed there.
This has alot to do with it,however, the student might be new and have no idea what he is in for. When teaching karate I am sometimes of uke abuse as well. some people just won't believe it until you show them. I would like to see it on an impartial uke as Gavin suggests.
Quote:
I personally would like to see this demo's done in a dynamic free flowing "Alive" environment where the Uke responds in a manner that my experience would consider to be realistic. I'd like to have a random attack thrown, not necessarily at full power, but hard enough to get the defenders juices flowing a bit so that they respond subconsciously and intuitively. I would then like to see the Uke make some effort to respond to the fact that someone is trying to K.O them. A lot of demo's I see the Uke throws one attack and then lets the defender hit them. That I think would greatly effect the ability to access the follow up targets off of the initial strike.
I don't think this is possible. It could possibly open the uke or the tori to serious injury just for the sake of practice. I don't think I could do that any more than I can practice some bunkai 'alive'. I believe in aliveness for the sake of getting a good feel for contact and conflict, but not to inflict potentially serious harm. One thing is for sure though, there would be no pressure point combo attacks that the uke reacts perfectly to such as in the demo. That's what makes it unrealistic.
Quote:
I have no idea what this Red Sox business is all about, at first I thought it was a private joke between you and Brian, but you recently used it to communicate with me. Could you share the joke so I can have a giggle as well...otherwise it does seem a little belittling and that would be a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black. Wouldn't ya think?
Apparently Rosanne is a baseball fan.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 10:15 AM
Quote:
When I see a demonstration of Aikido, or attend a seminar that has an Aikido session, the instructor will demonstrate that which is to be practiced, on one of his own students. It doesn't mean the technique wouldn't work on someone else, it just means that it is easy to demonstrate on someone who's ability to fall you can trust, and who will give you what you need to make a good demonstration. I never thought of that as a bad thing.
That's true,but aikido demonstrations don't hold much credibility with me either. I do like demonstrations,but let's call them that. Let's not call it "pressure point fighting" or "pressure point sparring", that is not at all what it is.
Quote:
To go a step further, when I see an Aikido person teaching pressure point techniques, they show how they enhance their Aikido. They don't suddenly stop doing Aikido and just start hitting pressure points as if they thought pressure points was a complete style or system.
I agree. Pressure point knowledge can definately enhance any one's particular art.
Quote:
What is it that you would like to see? I'm just not getting the problem. If it is a question of not knowing what the end result would look like for a pressure point practitioner doing a technique, I'll find some material for you that is in a more complete martial arts context and not in isolation like the clips I posted that were not helpful.
The main problem is the misrepresentation of what is happening. There was no fighting or sparring in those videos. It was just a demonstration with a passive uke. The uke could make Jim Carrey look good at karate.
Quote:
If it is just that you KNOW what to expect but you disagree that pressure points are worth the time to develop and train, then fine. I'll let it be.
I don't think they are worth all the time some people put into it, but they do enhance whatever you are doing.
LTKO's, not worth it.
NTKO's, not worth it at all.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 10:19 AM
Quote:
http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=
Can't say that I cared for this one much. While I know that some of the points demoed in the video can be painful or incapacitating, the guy did not take advantage of the attacker's reactions very well. After doing the knee to the back of the leg, the defender waits until the attacker "settles", THEN hits him in the back of the head. This is a big waste of both 1) time and 2) the "borrowed force" of the attacker's head snapping backwards IN TO the oncoming strike to the back of the head.
JMO.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 11:10 AM
Quote:
It could possibly open the uke or the tori to serious injury just for the sake of practice. I don't think I could do that any more than I can practice some bunkai 'alive'. I believe in aliveness for the sake of getting a good feel for contact and conflict, but not to inflict potentially serious harm.
Dillman didn't use to have a problem with it. I also saw Leon Jay do the most impressive K.O during a Remy Presas seminar about 9 or so years ago. They were actually sparring properly...but the guy was out for about 5 minutes so you might have a point. I must admit me and James used to have private sessions where we tried this stuff out...I think our record was about ten minutes for our longest session...and that was when the headaches started kicking in.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 12:56 PM
Quote:Quote:
It could possibly open the uke or the tori to serious injury just for the sake of practice. I don't think I could do that any more than I can practice some bunkai 'alive'. I believe in aliveness for the sake of getting a good feel for contact and conflict, but not to inflict potentially serious harm.
Dillman didn't use to have a problem with it. I also saw Leon Jay do the most impressive K.O during a Remy Presas seminar about 9 or so years ago. They were actually sparring properly...but the guy was out for about 5 minutes so you might have a point. I must admit me and James used to have private sessions where we tried this stuff out...I think our record was about ten minutes for our longest session...and that was when the headaches started kicking in.
We still don't know the long term effects of pressure point ko's. I don't want to be the guinea pig either.
Matt,
Good point on the video. It's like we can read his thoughts. "Here, then here......now here, oh, here".
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 01:23 PM
If you want to learn Kyusho, you can forget about the videos and expensive seminars. There are plenty of books on Shiatsu/accupressure, accupuncture, etc. to study from.
Or just go to classes on Shiatsu and Traditional Chinese Medicine instead of kyushojutsu seminars.
You don't need specialized training in how to attack these points. You just need to learn the locations and the effects of the strike/manipulation. Although you will have to experiment some to learn what part of the body works best for striking. You will see that with some parts of the body the edge of the open hand fits nicely, while some will require a fist where others you need to use fingers to dig in.
It can be dangerous to do these sorts of things. You certainly do not want to try these on people with high blood pressure, heart murmers or really any other medical problems.
You will find a lot of people in jail on murder or manslaughter charges whose defense was "I didn't mean to kill him". What happened, was they got in a lucky shot that inadvertantly hit a vital spot just the right way and the guy fell down and died. These could have been blows that would have stunned or knocked anyone else out. But if the person being struck had another medical condition (even undiagnosed) that could have been all it took to turn a knockout shot into a kill shot.
Some of the older Chiense texts about pressure points talk about not only striking points, but times of the day to strike (or not too). Just like the tides affected by the moon, etc. So are our bodies. There are some texts that say things like "strike this poing in the morning - that point in the evening". It's also good to know when to not strike. What might just stun someone in the morning could kill them in the evening.
Or just go to classes on Shiatsu and Traditional Chinese Medicine instead of kyushojutsu seminars.
You don't need specialized training in how to attack these points. You just need to learn the locations and the effects of the strike/manipulation. Although you will have to experiment some to learn what part of the body works best for striking. You will see that with some parts of the body the edge of the open hand fits nicely, while some will require a fist where others you need to use fingers to dig in.
It can be dangerous to do these sorts of things. You certainly do not want to try these on people with high blood pressure, heart murmers or really any other medical problems.
You will find a lot of people in jail on murder or manslaughter charges whose defense was "I didn't mean to kill him". What happened, was they got in a lucky shot that inadvertantly hit a vital spot just the right way and the guy fell down and died. These could have been blows that would have stunned or knocked anyone else out. But if the person being struck had another medical condition (even undiagnosed) that could have been all it took to turn a knockout shot into a kill shot.
Some of the older Chiense texts about pressure points talk about not only striking points, but times of the day to strike (or not too). Just like the tides affected by the moon, etc. So are our bodies. There are some texts that say things like "strike this poing in the morning - that point in the evening". It's also good to know when to not strike. What might just stun someone in the morning could kill them in the evening.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 03:17 PM
Maybe we disagree on how to teach pressure points, or even how to teach. In my orientation, pressure point use for a KO medium, heavy or light, in unpredictable motion is more advanced than working from predictable situations or not doing KO at all. Most Pressure point use is not for KO. Maybe you do, but I have difficulty believing you throw beginners into random attacks early on before they have some facility in a repertoire of practiced situations like kumite or other drills.
Actually, working KO in unpredictable motion is what I'm working on now and I've been training this stuff since 2003, AFTER I had a black belt in my basic style. The clips Brian posted were for beginners. I thought they were good teaching clips for beginners. It is fine to disagree. It is strictly an opinion and everyone is entitled to their own, including me.
If my disagreement is ALSO allowed, I would never teach defense against random attacks with people that you are not used to, to beginners. They need to learn their basics first in predictable situations with people they know who aren't suddently going to move into a strike or something that could cause an injury.
The Red Sox is my professional baseball team. Up until a couple of years ago, they had never won a national championship. Sports superstition thought them under a curse from a former player. The Sox would got close, but could never win a championship. They were underdogs. Now they have won 2 championships. I have a big place in my heart for the underdogs. Read my blog on perseverence at my Kyushospace site.
Actually, working KO in unpredictable motion is what I'm working on now and I've been training this stuff since 2003, AFTER I had a black belt in my basic style. The clips Brian posted were for beginners. I thought they were good teaching clips for beginners. It is fine to disagree. It is strictly an opinion and everyone is entitled to their own, including me.
If my disagreement is ALSO allowed, I would never teach defense against random attacks with people that you are not used to, to beginners. They need to learn their basics first in predictable situations with people they know who aren't suddently going to move into a strike or something that could cause an injury.
The Red Sox is my professional baseball team. Up until a couple of years ago, they had never won a national championship. Sports superstition thought them under a curse from a former player. The Sox would got close, but could never win a championship. They were underdogs. Now they have won 2 championships. I have a big place in my heart for the underdogs. Read my blog on perseverence at my Kyushospace site.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 06:11 PM
Quote:
Maybe we disagree on how to teach pressure points, or even how to teach. In my orientation, pressure point use for a KO medium, heavy or light, in unpredictable motion is more advanced than working from predictable situations or not doing KO at all. Most Pressure point use is not for KO. Maybe you do, but I have difficulty believing you throw beginners into random attacks early on before they have some facility in a repertoire of practiced situations like kumite or other drills.
I agree somewhat. Pressure points can be used to release or loosen someone's grip, to set up other strikes, or just to inflict pain. They don't necessarily have to be for knockouts.
Quote:
Actually, working KO in unpredictable motion is what I'm working on now and I've been training this stuff since 2003, AFTER I had a black belt in my basic style. The clips Brian posted were for beginners. I thought they were good teaching clips for beginners. It is fine to disagree. It is strictly an opinion and everyone is entitled to their own, including me.
I started getting an understanding of pressure points in the early 90's. Being taught to use them with my karate, even on the ground. Like you said, it enhances the art.
I do not agree with the way the video is presented. It says "pressure point fighting" I saw no fighting whatsoever. It should say pressure point demonstartion, because that's what it is.
Quote:
If my disagreement is ALSO allowed, I would never teach defense against random attacks with people that you are not used to, to beginners. They need to learn their basics first in predictable situations with people they know who aren't suddently going to move into a strike or something that could cause an injury.
I agree with that. Someone could be seriously hurt, as I stated before.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/29/07 11:29 PM
Roseanne,
the people in our Aikido class shudder when they think I'm going to teach Yonkyo, and they start sitting on their hands to keep their wrists away from me. That being said, it's obviously one of my better and favorite techniques. Would I try to defend myself using it... not likely... although I might "enhance" my defensive technique using it for "punishment after the whistle blows". It's clearly one of the better pressure point techniques for painful application, but just absolutely sucks for picking a method of implementing it for self defense outside of the "standard attacks" of Aikido.
Some people seem to forget that fighting is a "preservation art", and the one who uses the least amount of energy, has to work the least, and whoever gets the most "bang for their buck" in their technique will win most of the time. That being said, it doesn't mean you abandon "fighting" to take the "short cuts" or enhancements of pressure point fighting to replace your fighting system... you simply employ them to make your system more efficient. I know you've said that a thousand times, but it just doesn't seem to sink in... it's not an "either or" situation, but a "this and" situation.
Where in karate I was taught to use a shuto (knife hand) strike to the forearm just before the elbow... in "pressure point" terms, I'm striking Lung 5 or Colon 10, and adding the "complimentary strikes" to make it more effective. What's the difference?... my method of striking... my "follow up" strikes... my ability to simply ignore their next movements because their arms don't work... and what caused it?... nerve damage... meridian points?... system shock?.. blocked ki? The answers change depending on who you ask, and actually how you perform the techniques.
I'm 63 now, and I don't look to "go the distance" with a boxer, or randori with a 25 year old. I'm looking to knock his lights out, and the pressure point techniques allow me to do that with relatively little effort. My jujutsu skills allow me to punish them for being stupid enough to touch me, but I don't look to replace any fighting skill with pressure point techniques... only to enhance the skills and make them more effective.
Like Aikido, where you have a "willing accomplice" in your demonstration of technique, kyusho is more easily accomplished with someone willing to be knocked out or made sick on their stomach by undergoing a pressure point strike... but that's only in the "teaching mode". In the fighting mode, it doesn't matter whether they're "willing" or not... hit them correctly, and they go down like a stone in water... just like in Aikido, when someone really gives you force, they pay for it dynamically.
Teaching is all about "controlling the technique"... fighting is about applying the technique "with force" or intent. Pressing on nerves makes the work less exhaustive... and striking to elevate someone's blood pressure to make them dizzy is simply an effective use of body dynamics to protect yourself from harm.
Lo, those many years ago when I was young, my "close contact fighting" was all knees and elbows... and it was easy to see that the damage it could cause was immense. As I refined my skills, I learned to do the same things using pressure points without all the injury time outs and bruises.
Novices only see the gross movements of fighting, and to them, "pressure points" sounds like an alternative fighting system. Regardless of how many times you tell them that they are merely enhancements, they will persist that "pressure points are the way to fight". While I don't disagree with that, I do disagree that it's a "fighting system" of itself.
Not too long ago, I had a discussion with a guy who was 7th dan in kempo, and he mentioned "star point" exercises. I found out through the course of discussion, he had no idea what the "star points" were, or what they did... so even "knowing pressure points" didn't give him "the" answer he was looking for because he didn't understand the information.
At camp a few years ago, my uke was a hard-training Okinawan stylist that had some ukemi (falling) skills, so I used him in my demonstrations. His buddies were poking at him about making faces when I did the techniques, and he told them "I don't know what this looks like to you, but he's lighting my a$$ up every time he touches me".
While I know the general demeanor of people being "masters" of anything on this forum, I've trained with some people who truly were. What I learned from them, was how to "accelerate" the techniques by using pressure points and kyusho methods, and how to use my karate skills to "get to the points". Neither skill is exclusive of the other.
Training without knowing what to expect from your uke is like driving a car without knowing if it has brakes or steering... it's easy to end up in the ditch, or in the wall. There will always be detractors who don't put any stock into pressure point training... and there will be those that think it is the "end all" of fighting. Somewhere in between is "mastery". It's a matter of knowing your art, how to enhance it, and what the limits of it's efficacy are.
When that fails, pick up your Smith and Wesson...
the people in our Aikido class shudder when they think I'm going to teach Yonkyo, and they start sitting on their hands to keep their wrists away from me. That being said, it's obviously one of my better and favorite techniques. Would I try to defend myself using it... not likely... although I might "enhance" my defensive technique using it for "punishment after the whistle blows". It's clearly one of the better pressure point techniques for painful application, but just absolutely sucks for picking a method of implementing it for self defense outside of the "standard attacks" of Aikido.
Some people seem to forget that fighting is a "preservation art", and the one who uses the least amount of energy, has to work the least, and whoever gets the most "bang for their buck" in their technique will win most of the time. That being said, it doesn't mean you abandon "fighting" to take the "short cuts" or enhancements of pressure point fighting to replace your fighting system... you simply employ them to make your system more efficient. I know you've said that a thousand times, but it just doesn't seem to sink in... it's not an "either or" situation, but a "this and" situation.
Where in karate I was taught to use a shuto (knife hand) strike to the forearm just before the elbow... in "pressure point" terms, I'm striking Lung 5 or Colon 10, and adding the "complimentary strikes" to make it more effective. What's the difference?... my method of striking... my "follow up" strikes... my ability to simply ignore their next movements because their arms don't work... and what caused it?... nerve damage... meridian points?... system shock?.. blocked ki? The answers change depending on who you ask, and actually how you perform the techniques.
I'm 63 now, and I don't look to "go the distance" with a boxer, or randori with a 25 year old. I'm looking to knock his lights out, and the pressure point techniques allow me to do that with relatively little effort. My jujutsu skills allow me to punish them for being stupid enough to touch me, but I don't look to replace any fighting skill with pressure point techniques... only to enhance the skills and make them more effective.
Like Aikido, where you have a "willing accomplice" in your demonstration of technique, kyusho is more easily accomplished with someone willing to be knocked out or made sick on their stomach by undergoing a pressure point strike... but that's only in the "teaching mode". In the fighting mode, it doesn't matter whether they're "willing" or not... hit them correctly, and they go down like a stone in water... just like in Aikido, when someone really gives you force, they pay for it dynamically.
Teaching is all about "controlling the technique"... fighting is about applying the technique "with force" or intent. Pressing on nerves makes the work less exhaustive... and striking to elevate someone's blood pressure to make them dizzy is simply an effective use of body dynamics to protect yourself from harm.
Lo, those many years ago when I was young, my "close contact fighting" was all knees and elbows... and it was easy to see that the damage it could cause was immense. As I refined my skills, I learned to do the same things using pressure points without all the injury time outs and bruises.
Novices only see the gross movements of fighting, and to them, "pressure points" sounds like an alternative fighting system. Regardless of how many times you tell them that they are merely enhancements, they will persist that "pressure points are the way to fight". While I don't disagree with that, I do disagree that it's a "fighting system" of itself.
Not too long ago, I had a discussion with a guy who was 7th dan in kempo, and he mentioned "star point" exercises. I found out through the course of discussion, he had no idea what the "star points" were, or what they did... so even "knowing pressure points" didn't give him "the" answer he was looking for because he didn't understand the information.
At camp a few years ago, my uke was a hard-training Okinawan stylist that had some ukemi (falling) skills, so I used him in my demonstrations. His buddies were poking at him about making faces when I did the techniques, and he told them "I don't know what this looks like to you, but he's lighting my a$$ up every time he touches me".
While I know the general demeanor of people being "masters" of anything on this forum, I've trained with some people who truly were. What I learned from them, was how to "accelerate" the techniques by using pressure points and kyusho methods, and how to use my karate skills to "get to the points". Neither skill is exclusive of the other.
Training without knowing what to expect from your uke is like driving a car without knowing if it has brakes or steering... it's easy to end up in the ditch, or in the wall. There will always be detractors who don't put any stock into pressure point training... and there will be those that think it is the "end all" of fighting. Somewhere in between is "mastery". It's a matter of knowing your art, how to enhance it, and what the limits of it's efficacy are.
When that fails, pick up your Smith and Wesson...
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 12:10 AM
Nah... pressure points don't exist and don't work....
http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=
http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 07:30 AM
Quote:
Nah... pressure points don't exist and don't work....
http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=
See discussion here:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15967080
Posted by: underdog
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 12:14 PM
I'd be curious to see a clip from one of your schools MattJ, Gavin, or BrianS. I hear what you are saying and I'm mentally trying to see how you teach and I'm not getting a clear picture.
Do you have any teaching clips either from classes that you are actually teaching or demo clips for teaching like Theo's that YOU think are GOOD? If not, can you find one of someone else's that you think is a good example of a teaching demo clip suitable for beginners? That would be something for a comparable audience as Theo's. I'll get a better picture if you show me a GOOD one than I'm getting by hearing the discussion about a bad one. It need not have pressure points on it. My questions are actually more broad than the specific topic. The questions I have involve more teaching methods in Martial arts especially where safety and skill building are concerned.
Do you have any teaching clips either from classes that you are actually teaching or demo clips for teaching like Theo's that YOU think are GOOD? If not, can you find one of someone else's that you think is a good example of a teaching demo clip suitable for beginners? That would be something for a comparable audience as Theo's. I'll get a better picture if you show me a GOOD one than I'm getting by hearing the discussion about a bad one. It need not have pressure points on it. My questions are actually more broad than the specific topic. The questions I have involve more teaching methods in Martial arts especially where safety and skill building are concerned.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 12:40 PM
Eyrie...
thanks for your Ahhh... Stutely observations...
thanks for your Ahhh... Stutely observations...
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 12:53 PM
Quote:
I'd be curious to see a clip from one of your schools MattJ, Gavin, or BrianS. I hear what you are saying and I'm mentally trying to see how you teach and I'm not getting a clear picture.
This isn't from my school, but this is representative of how grapplers REALLY resist. Check this thread here:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...74#Post15967979
Note how they don't just lay there in the guard - they are attacking. Fishing for armbars, going for sweeps, etc. That is what I mean by the guy in Eyrie's video was not resisting.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 06:22 PM
OK. That helps. If that is an example of a good clip for teaching beginners, the same audience as Theo's clip, then we are talking about apples and oranges. I'd call the submission grappler's clip a training clip for advanced students. It is a good clip.
This clip has nothing in common with the clip from Stutely's site either. There is no basis really for comparing the two. Stutely's clip is just a funny clip with a very limited message for a limited audience. I can see why it evoked the reaction it did.
Now I know.
This clip has nothing in common with the clip from Stutely's site either. There is no basis really for comparing the two. Stutely's clip is just a funny clip with a very limited message for a limited audience. I can see why it evoked the reaction it did.
Now I know.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 06:44 PM
Matt...
the guy trying to do pressure points in that video was...??? Would you believe neither? While it was a "busy" grappling video, I saw a number of places where PP attacks could have been made, and since the participants were only "grappling", it only proves that the PP attacks need to be quick, and "to the point".
My experience has been that when someone is attacking a PP and you struggle, you only make it worse. I did judo for almost 35 years, and a lot of the training was how to use PP attacks within the rules... "disguising them", if you will.
I thought the "pressure points that don't exist" video was hilarious... and it only goes to show you that you can argue anything until you run into it. I have no doubt that the uke in that video was giving 100% resistance, and it was also clear that he was "paying for it" as the PP were applied.
Not disrespecting anybody, but modern day grapplers think they invented this stuff, but we were doing it 45 years ago when I started MA. Back then, it was part of self-defense training, and the "trophy" was being able to walk off the mat without being "crippled" by your opponent. It was closer to MMA than I'd like to admit, but we sure used PP every chance we got, and while they weren't our "fighting style", they were useful to break grips, locks, pins, and force the other guy to change positions or effect a release.
Good judo grapplers know a million ways to "cheat" the rules... and dropping a boney surface on a PP and lighting you up was just part of the technique. "Fighting" and "competition" are two completely different scenarios and mindsets... and you can rest assured that the training was a whole lot bloodier than the tournaments... we didn't have rules during practice.
the guy trying to do pressure points in that video was...??? Would you believe neither? While it was a "busy" grappling video, I saw a number of places where PP attacks could have been made, and since the participants were only "grappling", it only proves that the PP attacks need to be quick, and "to the point".
My experience has been that when someone is attacking a PP and you struggle, you only make it worse. I did judo for almost 35 years, and a lot of the training was how to use PP attacks within the rules... "disguising them", if you will.
I thought the "pressure points that don't exist" video was hilarious... and it only goes to show you that you can argue anything until you run into it. I have no doubt that the uke in that video was giving 100% resistance, and it was also clear that he was "paying for it" as the PP were applied.
Not disrespecting anybody, but modern day grapplers think they invented this stuff, but we were doing it 45 years ago when I started MA. Back then, it was part of self-defense training, and the "trophy" was being able to walk off the mat without being "crippled" by your opponent. It was closer to MMA than I'd like to admit, but we sure used PP every chance we got, and while they weren't our "fighting style", they were useful to break grips, locks, pins, and force the other guy to change positions or effect a release.
Good judo grapplers know a million ways to "cheat" the rules... and dropping a boney surface on a PP and lighting you up was just part of the technique. "Fighting" and "competition" are two completely different scenarios and mindsets... and you can rest assured that the training was a whole lot bloodier than the tournaments... we didn't have rules during practice.
Posted by: eyrie
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/30/07 07:43 PM
Matt,
http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=049e45d87b8c7d8b9aac
I believe Russell Stutely (the guy on the ground in the above video) is an FA member. Ask him if he was resisting John Andrews and what did it feel like when he did.
Something to bear in mind too is the LEVEL at which some people are playing at... it may not look like the same sort of resistance one might see in say the drmickey vid, and would be more like the Inosanto/Machado vid in the other thread.
http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=049e45d87b8c7d8b9aac
I believe Russell Stutely (the guy on the ground in the above video) is an FA member. Ask him if he was resisting John Andrews and what did it feel like when he did.
Something to bear in mind too is the LEVEL at which some people are playing at... it may not look like the same sort of resistance one might see in say the drmickey vid, and would be more like the Inosanto/Machado vid in the other thread.
Posted by: Russell_Stutely
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/31/07 05:08 PM
Hi
What a palava.... Mattj.. you are comparing a bit of fun, the clip with John Andrews, with a couple of guys in a competition.
It is like comparing training jabs on a bag and saying the guy jabbing is not getting the same resistance he would get in the ring against a real opponent.
Of course a fight is COMPLETELY different to training. of course the level of resistance is different.
What i do not believe is that all the "tough guys" train balls out all the time and 100% resist everything all the time. Yet, the talk is as if, that is what they do.
We do it this way
Learn with little to no resistance
Train with some resistance - at varying levels
Pressure test with no compliance
That simple.. I assume that any fighter / MA / Coach / Instructor with half a brain would agree with that approach??
Having said that, John does the same to me no matter what anyway! Mind you, i have seen him do the same in winning titles as well... full resistance yet he got through them and tapped 'em out in under 30 seconds. If only they had resisted properly!!
I find it amazing, that after all this time, people still come out with the same tired arguments about what we do... and yet NEVER come along and train... exception being Gavin a few days ago... his write up available at www.ocfm.co.uk
What a palava.... Mattj.. you are comparing a bit of fun, the clip with John Andrews, with a couple of guys in a competition.
It is like comparing training jabs on a bag and saying the guy jabbing is not getting the same resistance he would get in the ring against a real opponent.
Of course a fight is COMPLETELY different to training. of course the level of resistance is different.
What i do not believe is that all the "tough guys" train balls out all the time and 100% resist everything all the time. Yet, the talk is as if, that is what they do.
We do it this way
Learn with little to no resistance
Train with some resistance - at varying levels
Pressure test with no compliance
That simple.. I assume that any fighter / MA / Coach / Instructor with half a brain would agree with that approach??
Having said that, John does the same to me no matter what anyway! Mind you, i have seen him do the same in winning titles as well... full resistance yet he got through them and tapped 'em out in under 30 seconds. If only they had resisted properly!!
I find it amazing, that after all this time, people still come out with the same tired arguments about what we do... and yet NEVER come along and train... exception being Gavin a few days ago... his write up available at www.ocfm.co.uk
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/31/07 05:48 PM
Hi Russell. I can only go by what is on the clip, and my own (admittedly limited) understanding of either pressure points or grappling. 
I am not arguing that PP's will not ever work. In certain situations, with certain people, they can - I have seen it. My contention is that with the clip apparently showing how to use PP's in a grappling scenario, we should assume that the grappling opponent has SOME skill, yes? Unless we are talking about using PP's against an untrained grappler - but that was not how it was implied to me.
Therefore, to try to show efficacy of these PP's against a grappler, with the grappler not really resisting as a trained grappler would, seems to muddle the point of the clips.
We do not train 100% in my BJJ class all the time. But when doing resistant drills, there is significant resistance (50-80%). If the opponent's job is to try to get a PP on me, and my job is to not let him, then I am going to do so earnestly. This does not mean injure him, but offer authentic resistance.
I did not mean to imply that you were not resisting in the clips, but rather that a trained grappler would be able to offer more or better resistance. I would be sincerely interested to see how well the strikes would work against a BJJ blue belt, for instance - even in a "light resistance" ie; no injury format.
BTW -
Exactly how we do it, too.
Cheers.
I am not arguing that PP's will not ever work. In certain situations, with certain people, they can - I have seen it. My contention is that with the clip apparently showing how to use PP's in a grappling scenario, we should assume that the grappling opponent has SOME skill, yes? Unless we are talking about using PP's against an untrained grappler - but that was not how it was implied to me.
Therefore, to try to show efficacy of these PP's against a grappler, with the grappler not really resisting as a trained grappler would, seems to muddle the point of the clips.
We do not train 100% in my BJJ class all the time. But when doing resistant drills, there is significant resistance (50-80%). If the opponent's job is to try to get a PP on me, and my job is to not let him, then I am going to do so earnestly. This does not mean injure him, but offer authentic resistance.
I did not mean to imply that you were not resisting in the clips, but rather that a trained grappler would be able to offer more or better resistance. I would be sincerely interested to see how well the strikes would work against a BJJ blue belt, for instance - even in a "light resistance" ie; no injury format.
BTW -
Quote:
Learn with little to no resistance
Train with some resistance - at varying levels
Pressure test with no compliance
Exactly how we do it, too.
Cheers.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/31/07 05:55 PM
Quote:
. and yet NEVER come along and train... exception being Gavin a few days ago...
Huh?
A few days ago? You mean a couple of years mate! Regardless John Andrews is definately the real deal. Wouldn't mind seeing you try those points on him though Russ bet he'd still managed to snap something off ya even if you dropped a bloody crane on him! Edit: In fact if I remember correctly wasn't John showing one of the Gracie's something to do with points at SENI the other year?
Posted by: Russell_Stutely
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/31/07 06:50 PM
Sorry Gav.. typed days instead of years... my age you know!
John was due to be doing that but it did not happen. Ref using the Points on John... yes they work, of course, but John is so good at groundwork that he breaks things off you BEFORE you get a chance to do anything to him! Stand up.. now I have a chance:-) Ground.. no way never
Matt resistance at 50-80% is fairly standard in any type of grappling / Judo etc class, glad we agree. Same in Johns classes... difference being, John goes at 10-15% and lets the others go at 50-80%, still the same result.
The other guy in the Clip, Kenny, has great grappling skills... at nearly 50 he can still do the business with "tough guys" half his age!
Plus, Matt, we did no strikes in the clip... It gets far worse with strikes. This was an EXAMPLE of where and how they can be used... with a bit of fun ribbing about all the people saying they do not work!
I saw John do the same thing to a "trained grappler" at SENI. He was fairly well ranked in BJJ, purple I think.
I would HIGHLY recommend people training with John.. he ain't bad you know!
Another clip of John at play: martialartsyoutube
Regards
Russell
John was due to be doing that but it did not happen. Ref using the Points on John... yes they work, of course, but John is so good at groundwork that he breaks things off you BEFORE you get a chance to do anything to him! Stand up.. now I have a chance:-) Ground.. no way never
Matt resistance at 50-80% is fairly standard in any type of grappling / Judo etc class, glad we agree. Same in Johns classes... difference being, John goes at 10-15% and lets the others go at 50-80%, still the same result.
The other guy in the Clip, Kenny, has great grappling skills... at nearly 50 he can still do the business with "tough guys" half his age!
Plus, Matt, we did no strikes in the clip... It gets far worse with strikes. This was an EXAMPLE of where and how they can be used... with a bit of fun ribbing about all the people saying they do not work!
I saw John do the same thing to a "trained grappler" at SENI. He was fairly well ranked in BJJ, purple I think.
I would HIGHLY recommend people training with John.. he ain't bad you know!
Another clip of John at play: martialartsyoutube
Regards
Russell
Posted by: BrianS
Re: Pressure point fighting - 10/31/07 11:13 PM
http://www.martialartsyoutube.com/view_v...=&category=
Can someone please tell me why this is called fighting?
Can someone please tell me why this is called fighting?
Posted by: underdog
Re: Pressure point fighting - 11/01/07 06:52 AM
Thank you Sir. I've had the weight bearing techniques explained to me before but not from the perspective of pressure points. It now makes much more sense to me and I believe I shall be able to apply it more consistantly and effectively. Sometimes it just takes a few different words or point of view.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Pressure point fighting - 11/01/07 06:55 AM
Quote:
Can someone please tell me why this is called fighting?
Because some people have very broad definitions of what fighting is apparently.
Posted by: underdog
Re: Pressure point fighting - 11/01/07 11:13 AM
Because it is an instructional clip promo for a larger DVD. Many people teach beginners slowly proceeding from the known to the related unknown. The overall goal is to learn to "fight", however, any beginner increment will be situational slow practice. The title is a matter of personal preference.
I'll concede that if someone prefers to reserve the word "fight" for higher end competition or comparable rules of engagement, then it was the wrong title.
Personally, I wouldn't fault the whole work because of the title choice. When I see the clip, I can decern it's intended use and audience and appreciate it's relative value for what it is.
I'll concede that if someone prefers to reserve the word "fight" for higher end competition or comparable rules of engagement, then it was the wrong title.
Personally, I wouldn't fault the whole work because of the title choice. When I see the clip, I can decern it's intended use and audience and appreciate it's relative value for what it is.