Cycle of Destruction/Yin-Yang/Setup Points

First off, hello to all, I sure hope this forum isn't dead as the thread below states, b/c it seems to me there's quite a bit a PP knowledge here.

On topic, does anybody here study the cycle of destruction for applicative purposes? For example, going into a real self-defense situation consciously aware of where you will strike to follow the cycle. Personally, I find memorizing certain "combos" that take advantage of the cycle of destruction or yin-yang is more realistic and less mind-frazzling than trying to think of the cycle as a whole. In addition, I try to memorize the locations of common "set-up" points such as Pc 6 and Lu 5 to utilize for a self-defense strategy. For example, I would try to strike Lu 1 before hitting LI 8 or 9(or Co 8,9 whatever floats your boat), Lu 1 being the set-up. I talk about all this, because personally, in a "street" situation, I would probably not have the mental ability to focus on pressure point theory as opposed to having certain patterns that follow theory drilled into my head for me to use without really having to think about it. Is there anyone who agrees with my thinking? Disagrees?

Hopefully I made a little bit of sense. It's kinda hard to translate the oh-so-complex workings of my brain into writing. (Thank goodness we have smileys for sarcasm's sake)

Best Regards,
Zlarin

We used to pay a lot of attention to cycle of destruction, getting the right number of points on the same meridian, cycle of creation, diurnal cycle to know when a point is vulnerable and so on. We pay less attention to it now. By we, I mean Kyusho International, which is the training system to which my school belongs. Generally speaking, we are moving away from TCM and finding more use for MWM explanations. We are not the only ones moving this way.

For me, it works out well. Even in a practice KO where all concerned have a general idea of what is going to get hit, uke turns in a slightly different angle and that makes the difference between hitting SJ 17 or SI 17 which are the same element, but are close to LI 18 which is a different element. In reality, you don't know what you are going to hit until you get there. As Steve Stewart says, "most available weapon to most available target".

I actually had a card catelog at one time. I'd pour over my Dillman tape collection and try to identify every KO combination and figure out what cycle, how many strikes on which meridians and so on. It was craziness. I have long suspected that folks got the fancy KOs and rationalized them after.

I'm more likely to pay attention to where the energy is and hit where the person is weak. For example, if a person has a tight grip on your shirt, he is vulnerable on the opposite side of the neck or the opposite leg. I'll set up with the wrist points on the attacking arm, then hit another quadrant. If you yank on the attacking arm in the above situation, the head will move for you in such a way as to relax and expose the opposite side of the neck in a way that almost says "hit me".

Did I understand you correctly? You don't have to agree, but are we talking about the same thing?

Thanks for the reply Underdog, that was very relavent. Instead of pre-meditated striking, i.e. following the destructive/diurnal cycle etc., it is more realistic to use known set-ups and utilize them, such as you stated where yanking on the attacking wrist(the set-up) leads to an attack on the side of the neck. While my view of setups are probably different than yours, I think the general idea is about the same. Personally, I have drilled for specific situations so reflex kicks in instead of having to think, "I just struck this fire point, now how do I strike a metal one?" I do enjoy studying the interrelationship between various points, but I suppose you can say I wouldn't think about it unless it is practiced in a controlled situation. Learning the seemingly endless combinations for KO's is fun and interesting, but like you said it can lead to craziness. I just pick a few of the tried and tested combinations that are relatively easy to get at and drill them instead of relying on my knowledge of theory to get me through a fight(And I do not claim to have the theory prowess to do so). Still, I'd love to learn both the TCM and MWM implications to anything I can get my hands on.

I have a friend who practices kyusho and goes into TCM theories hardcore, is very cerebral about his approach, and pretty much has the opposite PP mindset of mine. I guess you could say he analyzes as he goes, which I think is a bit of overkill for any practical application outside of a dojo. His argument is the "You can't be prepared for every situation" one, and I agree with him, to an extent. But, while I call him crazy, he says the same to me, so I suppose it depends on personal preference.

Meridian theory and hitting points is a "years of study" endeavor, combined with years of study in martial arts to know how to get to the points during a fighting situation. The TCM approach is to know how to cure the disruptions cause by point striking, so whichever approach you take, you still have to cover the same information.

The cycles and timing of the different meridian "on-off" periods is tricky, even for well-schooled practitioners, and unless you check your watch before you fight, you have to learn the "general" methods to use if you're fighting. If you're into Dim Mak methods, you have to have a mind of premeditation planned into your fight and fight your way to a specific "death touch" strike.

Complicated?... absolutely. Take years of training?... absolutely. It's not something you can simply read a book or attend a seminar and do correctly and safely... and I question a lot of the seminar information I've seen over the years (especially in the "safe" area).

Modern medicine can reverse a lot of the damage done by using point striking, but it's done in a hospital situation, and not on the mats... so you have to have your friend's knowledge for "resucitation and reversal" of DM striking during the destructive cycle... most of which involve acupuncture treatments before you go out there using the destructive cycle for hitting points... otherwise, you're really not going to be satisfied with the results you get... and neither will your victims. JMHO

Hurting people using point striking without the knowledge to repair the damage is unforgiveable IMO.

Thank you wristtwister. Revivals are necessary for any work with a student or practice partner. To not attend to the needs of your uke is unconscionable. I know that sometimes it is omitted. People have posted some outrageous clips from professional seminars sans revivals. In my school, revivals is the first step.

I agree that what works... works! There must be a reason for it. Whether one studies TCM or MWM, one should come up with similar conclusions. In this day and age, it is a matter of personal preference. For myself, I would preserve the traditional naming of the points from acupuncture, and ditch the rest. The single most informative text I have ever read on pressure points theory was a little thin book classic Death Touch by Michael Kelly. It has become a gold standard for me, against which I compare everything else I read on the subject.

Don't get me wrong, I make sure I know the proper techniques for revival, and have never seriously struck a PP outside of a controlled situation. I am adamant about exercising caution when it comes to manipulating pressure points. Most of my experience is thankfully obtained from a Kyusho instructor (said friend is his son) who happens to be a very good friend of mine, of whom I can fall back to if I have any questions. On top of my own studies, he keeps me informed of what I should know, and has always been present during any of my practice with pressure points. My issue with my friend (not his father) was not the theory behind pressure points themselves, i.e. revivals, cycles, etc., but the methods he follows with his study. He is the embodiment of the example I gave before ("I just struck a metal point, now how do I strike a fire one?"). Like I said before, I don't claim to know everything about PP's, but with the knowledge I do have, I do my best to follow through and learn as much as possible about it, because I agree whole-heartedly with your statement about not having the knowledge to fix what you damaged. I just hope I didn't come across as a guy who runs around hurting people out of ignorance.

Anyways, thanks to both wristtwister and underdog for your views on the subject.

Best Regards,
Zlarin

Underdog,
I don't mean to be cynical, but the sum total of knowledge floating around out there now about kyusho-jitsu is borderline nothing. An in-depth study of the hitting points reveals the permanent damage done to organs, and just resucitation isn't enough to reverse that damage.

Like punching a hole in a ball or a tire, you can put a patch on it and blow it back up, but it's never really the same as before. Hitting a liver point and damaging the liver might be simple to revive the uke, but the damage is done unless corrective acupuncture is done to reverse it and cause the liver to heal. Unfortunately, the liver is the only organ in the body that will regenerate itself, so if you think of the "organ meridians" that cause damage and are used in a lot of these "knockout seminars", you can easily see that things affecting the lungs, heart, spleen, etc. can have irreversible long term effects.

MA players tend to use ST-9 as the key to success in knocking people out, and fail to realize the reason it's so successful is that it attacks the vagus nerve... which can injure every organ in the body... but, of course, they kind of forget to go over all the possibilities and problems in the "seminars". One of the reasons this information was kept secret was to stop novices from learning a little and doing a lot of damage with it.

I'm certainly not an acupuncturist, so I don't hit certain points in the body with DM strikes because I wouldn't have the skill to reverse the damage. Unlike our friend who seems to think having his friend nearby "that's serious" about kyusho is the answer, you can't depend on others to repair your mishaps. That is why I don't pass much along on the FA forum about hitting points. It's easy to teach how to damage somebody... how to fix them is another matter.

I am not in disagreement wristtwister. You are a very knowledgeable person for whom I have come to have a lot of respect. Of course you can do more damage than you'd want to, using pressure points. This is martial arts, not a tupperware party. With or without pressure points, you can always be injured, harm a friend, kill somebody etc. A straight in punch to Ren 17 could be an easy kill but you don't need pressure points to know or do this.

Responsibility is key. As for acupuncture, I've had many treatments. Sometimes I think I get benefit from it, sometimes I don't. I use it when there isn't an easy medical treatment and there isn't anything to loose.

Should the decision be mine, and there were to be a problem in the dojo, (there hasn't been any emergencies) and "revivals" don't solve the problem, I'll call 9-1-1. I won't even use the heart/lung revivals for a real crisis because I am a nurse and should I create a duty of care, I would be held to the standard for my profession which means heart association CPR.

You are correct that our knowledge about pressure points is in its infancy. Research is ongoing. It is better than it was. It is facinating to study and I'm happy to be in an open minded environment where medical people are doing research.

I am also aware, that as a person who OCCAISIONALLY practices supervised KO work through Evan Pantazi's training system, I am in a small minority on fighting arts. The concensus on fighting arts is that this is an outrageous and dangerous practice. I'm OK with this and have no need to convince people to change their training.

Right now I am coming from the position of being home on workman's comp because on New Year's eve, there was a mutiny at work. While I was fighting to "hold and control and do no harm", the kid fighting me was trying to kill me. My nose is broken and I have a lovely black eye. My techniques were working fine. I just wasn't aggressive enough because my goal was to preserve safety without inflicting any harm. The street fighter kid fighting with me probably didn't know anything about pressure points.

Pressure points is only one part of a big story.

Wow Underdog,
I didn't realize you had been injured and put "offline" by some street kid with an attitude (or mental problem). I certainly hope you heal quickly and can put the trauma behind you without being out of action for too long. My sincere sympathies.

Back to the thread, I certainly encourage everyone to study pressure points and their relationship to kata and the expanded study of resucitation methods, but the way things are taught now, it's suspect to whether or not you actually get the information you really need. It isn't that the information isn't out there, it simply takes years of study to gather it in, and being an "instant coffee" type of society, we want it all in the condensed version... read a book... watch a video... go punching points on some willing victim...(notice I didn't say 'uke'). Unless you're doing this "the old fashioned way", there is inherit danger in its practice... and whether the FA forum folks choose to believe it can do what it can do, there are still a few people out there that understand what Dim Mak and Kyusho is all about... and they aren't out there making a sideshow out of it, or reinforcing their MA "legend" by hitting a bunch of sitting ducks at seminars.

I think it's a shame that they're raking in a ton of money mis-teaching the art, and I have to work for the money to travel around and train with "reasonable people" (but that's a different story). Seriously, my main concern is that the art's actual "art" is being lost with all these roadshow charlatans... take away ST-9 and they are at a total loss for anything to do with hitting point fighting.

I have a lot of friends in the Okinawan karate groups (Isshin Ryu, Shuri Ryu, etc.) and connections with some of the groups that they train under and with, so I get to see kyusho training from a lot of different viewpoints, most of which aren't all that precise. They are more into hitting point clusters than precise points, so it complicates the remedial tools available for damage control, and when it's not someone with enough training to be precise with their strikes, they can complicate the "fixes" quite a bit. That's why I've pretty much started only training with a few specific people that I know have the right kind of knowledge to "play safely".

Your being a medical person, I can understand your interest in developing good methods of body control, etc. for handling patients "without harm", but you might could use some good jujutsu training to go along with those "point controls". A good old-fashioned pin will work wonders when it's mechanical, or when the patient is "pumped up" on something... You might give that some thought to reinforce your point training. Both methods work, and each situation is unique...

Rosanne -

Sorry to hear about your injuries. Best wishes for a quick recovery. Nobody can tell me our PP forum mods don't have any practical experience!

I'm fine thanks... just got a free rhinoplasty!

Anyway, pressure points, no matter how you study them, takes years of study. I wasn't allowed to start until I was a black belt. Now they let people start sooner which I find curious, but I shall not argue with my school. Better minds than mine have decided it is OK. To me it is useless to know where the pressure points are if you don't know how to hit correctly. It is useless and even counter productive to be trying to focus on a pressure point added to a tuite maneuver, if you can't execute the basic tuite maneuver, which if taught correctly, would have some attention to correct focus on a pressure point (quite probably) whether or not it was ever overtly stated. Then too I know that if the bar were raised to where it should ideally be, I myself would be excluded.

As for basic philosophy guiding the years of training, I don't wish to be guided by ancient Chinese medical practice. I realize this is an artical of faith for some, which makes me a heretic at the very least, but why should earth, water, fire, metal, wood in Chinese medicine yield any more valid explanations than the Westerners who battled with earth, air, fire and water? Both cultures learned a lot from the best methods they had in cadaver study, and observations of healers. Both layed the foundations for a more modern medicine.

Why ignore all the bioimagery, biometrics, and benefits of scientific method to inform our study and practice? I know Dr. Sergio Espejo got a research award this year from KI. I have not seen anything peer reviewed written by him. If I could, it would be very exciting. Instead of repeating that we don't know much, I'd rather get going with the research and maybe that would help us learn this art more efficiently.

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I'm fine thanks... just got a free rhinoplasty!

Anyway, pressure points, no matter how you study them, takes years of study. I wasn't allowed to start until I was a black belt. Now they let people start sooner which I find curious, but I shall not argue with my school. Better minds than mine have decided it is OK. To me it is useless to know where the pressure points are if you don't know how to hit correctly. It is useless and even counter productive to be trying to focus on a pressure point added to a tuite maneuver, if you can't execute the basic tuite maneuver, which if taught correctly, would have some attention to correct focus on a pressure point (quite probably) whether or not it was ever overtly stated. Then too I know that if the bar were raised to where it should ideally be, I myself would be excluded.

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I hate to disagree but I have to. We start teaching PP theory not actual strikes from white belt. I have seen some of the techniques done by Black Belts who just started learning PP's and you can tell that it is still about muscle and less about finese.Since the techniques work( because they just power through them) They never really learn how to work with PP correctly. IMO (and just my opinion) I think we should teach PP theory right away, so with every punch every kick from day one the student has an idea of what they are supposed to be doing with these techniques. I cant tell you how many times I have heard well I am kicking them in the leg and punching them in the stomach. What does that have to do with PP?? and more importantly what have you been learning for years?? Like I said just my opinion

Well you have expressed the prevailing opinion in my school pretty well.

We have Kyusho kids as a matter of fact. They do well. These are the best of the kids from their own classes. They have a special Kyusho class a couple of times a month. They learn things like how to escape the grasp of an adult in an abduction attempt. When they punch you in P2 or kick you in Sp 6, you know it. Clearly they are learning the material.

It probably should be integrated into the material from the beginning, maybe without having to be part of a special class. Maybe someday it will be there. I suspect that in the past, that may have been the way it was taught- just in there, in the stew. Why punch when you can punch a point? Why punch a point if you can get the correct angle? Gee if the points are as dangerous as what they are supposed to be, why risk having someone punch one accidentally? I'll change.

Are you part of DKI? If so that might be why our schools philosophies are the same. I dont train directly under one of George Dillmans students but my instuctors instuctor trains with George. I would imagine that this filters down.

My school is affiliated with Kyusho International which is Evan Pantazi's program. Evan Pantazi was a DKI student and teacher for many years. That is why there is the similarity. We are all members of the same family.

I was browsing the web and came across this thread.
Does anyone ever do any research on what yin and yang means?
I looked around and here is what I found:
The Yin Yang (the symbol) actually has many secrets.

You can view the secrets explained in the video at this link:
http://www.metacafe.com/user/4464727/edepot/

The scroll mentioned in that video is here...
http://www.edepot.com/taoart.html

Pass those URL to your friends. Why would you do that? Because they
would then know the secret too!

I pay minimal attention to it. Polarity is in constant flux when you are in motion. The system I study with is moving toward encouraging people to become more medically aware in Western explanations rather than in traditional Chinese Medicine.

Talk about polarity!!!! This sets up a highly charged state for practitioners of different styles. The arguements that go on in an eclectic forum like this can be so charged that sparks fly. Wait and so how many people will respond to this post defending TCM.

My teachers, for example encourage us to attend human cadaver studies and things like the the Body Works exhibit. I went to such a cadaver study arranged for us by one of the doctors in our system a couple of years ago. It was such a fantastic experience. He disected out for us from the brachial plexus down through the wrist. We got to see all relevant anatomical structures and the location of the arm points. It was a spiritual experience. Oh how we are wonderfully made.

Last year, the same doctor ran another and he showed people the head. I had to miss that one.

So in the end of the day, this is what I use Yin and Yang for. I mix Yin and Yang strikes. Attendance to Yin and Yang gives me a clue to know how uke will fall. It guides my breathing and postsure. That is it, aside from the probability that I'll think of something later.