Point of the Week - Stomach 9

New introduction!

The idea of the Point of the Week posts is to stimulate discussion of the manipulation and application of a specific PP in actual combat. The PP's are workable within all MA systems and their study will greatly enhance the effectiveness of ALL arts. However, you must first have an advanced understanding of your art before you begin looking at PP's!

Here is a basic guide to PP attacks. Please pay close attention to the Safety section.

Stomach 9/ST9 or Ren Ying (Man's Welcome)

This weeks point is Stomach 9 or ST9 for short. It is located on the earth meridian and is of Yang polarity according to TCM theory. It is located in the neck here.

This point is listed in the Bubushi's list of 36 Vital Points, and is probably one of the most dangerous places to strike in the entire human body.

Striking

I am not normally an alarmist, but this point is extremely dangerous, and MUST be trained using extreme caution. Before we go into how to attack I'd like to cover the affect of attacking this point will have on the body.

Leaving pressure points aside and without blinding you with medical terminology, I'll briefly describe will happens when this point is attacked. This is where the carotid sinus nerve lives. By attacking this point you artificially trigger a carotid sinus reflex. Naturally this reflex is a trigger in response to high blood pressure and will result in bradycardia (the heart rate dropping below 60 beats per minute) and a drop of blood pressure. Paramedics use a technique called a "Carotid Massage" where gentle pressure is applied to this point for a period of 5 seconds on each side of the neck once a minute. This is used to help regulate dangerously high blood pressure by dilating the blood vessels and thus lowering the blood pressure. It doesn't take a genius to work out the effect of over stimulation.

Other dangers associated with this point include the potential rupturing of the carotid artery or trachea (windpipe) which could easily lead to death.

With an understanding of the dangers of using this point, we will now look at how to attack it. This point will respond to either pressing or sharp striking directly into the neck at a 90 degree angle towards the spine.

To strike this point to cause maximum damage will require a sharp narrow weapon such as a spear hand or single knuckle strike. This method of striking should only be used into extreme life or death circumstances due to the high risk of death with a relatively low impact trauma.

This point will respond well to a large blunt impact, such as a forearm smash, which will cause extreme internal shock and disorientation. Again, caution must be used to avoid accidental damage to the trachea.

A far more humane and safer method of attack to this point is by pressing into this point using the fingers. This will cause intense localised pain and if squeezed for a prolonged period of time will lower the blood pressure to the point of unconsciousness and eventually death. Pressing in and up towards the back of the skull will cause the recipient to raise up on the balls of their feet away from the pain. Pressing in and down towards the floor will drop them.

Applications

Obviously the ways in which this point could be struck are endless. The following applications are not exhaustive, they are simply presented to stimulate thought and provide possible applications.

I will not cover the obvious striking applications of this point; any experienced Martial Artist worth their salt knows how to use a spear hand.

The pressing method of attack on this point makes it ideal to use in close quarter combat. From a clinch, if you can reach in and pinch this point it will create intense pain and thus movement. Holding on will eventually render the attacker unconscious.

Again from the clinch driving the fingers into this point create extreme pain. Combined with the directional information mentioned above make this extremely effective when attempting to create movement.

The last application I'll cover is using the Karate Jodan Uke or head block. Driving a Jodan Uke straight into this point is extremely effective at delivering shock into your opponent, and combined with a hikite on a attackers punching hand will add hugely to the overall effect of the strike.

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Again, please please take the time to understand the effects of this point and appreciate how dangerous it is. For those who use this point in KO demo's please take a moment to read this article by Erle Montaigue and scroll down to the comments by Professor McCleod. The whole article is interesting, but the commentary on ST9 should definitely be read!

Damn, dam and double damn! There's one rather large mistake with this one......Stomachs an Earth meridan not a bloody Water one. Sorry guys was doing loads of reading on the Water meridian for my Shiatsu course today....guess it stuck in my head! Stomach is an Earth meridian. Could one of the mods edit the guide please????

Edit - Cheers oldman! You're a star!

Cheers,

Gav

Hi Gavin,

Thanks for the info! I find that ST9 is great for creating space between you and your opponent especially when fighting close, if you apply pressure by gouging, then the opponent (attacker) should immediately pull away from the pain, which in most cases causes them to disrupt their balance, leaving them vulnerable to being swept or thrown, also the good thing about this point is, that there is a whole multitude of points within the same area, so you're certain to get a result even if your accuracy is slightly out, works well from the soto uke application too! cheers mate,

James

Good points mate. And thanks for spotting my delibrate mistake. You passed the test and get the gold star!

Gavin I think this is actually a YIN point with element Earth. Also I was told you have to strike it at a 45 degree angle.

Jango.

Stomach is definately a Yang Meridian, with the Spleen being its Earth Yin counter part. It is on the Yin Heel Linking vessel thingy (sorry I'm at work haven't got my books with me, so can't remember the exact name, think thats about right!) maybe thats where your getting mixed up with an EV perspective?

With regards to the angle of the attack. Dillman in his first book lists it as a 45 degree angle (being from Master Bowmans camp, that's going to be what you'll have been taught), Rand Cardwell in "The Western Bubushi" lists it as a 90 degree shot, as does Mike Patrick in "Advanced Martial Science" and his "Pressure Point Atlas", but they're both DSI so the information has come from the same source. Erle Montaigue in his Dim Mak Encyclopedia simple refers to it as a strike towards the spine! I'm affraid I'm not that much of a nerd to remember how it was listed in my Chin Na books!

From experience, and as I listed this point responds to both 45 and 90 degree angles. If I was using a spear hand and really wanted to damage I fire in on the shortest path, straight in. If you were going to utilize the up or down response, then you'd need to go in at a 45 degree angle. Kushanku has a lovely example of this.

HTH.

Gav

Stomach is Yang. It is unique for being on the ventral side of the body. I like to grab it- grab the sternocleidomastoid muscle, the who width or even just the sternal head of it. From the back, your fingers go into the point and the thumb on the other side. Use it to pull someone off of someone in a fight for example. From the front, reverse the grip. Your thumb goes in the point and your fingers on the other side. You can turn the head, make uke give up his posture or set up some other lock or other technique. Put the thumb knuckle in their for the rear strangle is good too. That's my contribution.

Thanks underdog, great contribution! Take it you've used this one at work???

Since I like to try these out and I don't have many volunteers, I use me.
I tried digging my fingers in the way underdog said and *&%k me it hurt. I don't know if I got the right spot but something hurt. I didn't think this one was supposed to hurt, just knock people out.

PS
Don't bother telling me not to do this as all advice will be completely ignored.

I've used myself as PP dummy loads of times. Used to do it at lunch times at my desk. A copy of Erle Montaigues Dim Mak book in hand, and just prodding myself, what was weird in the office at first just got accepted as just "Gav".

The pain factor caused by pressing makes this point makes it an ideal point to used when trying to move people who don't want to be moved!

Don't worry, I'll be your volunteer on Sunday when you pop down mate....You still owe me some pain from when I introduced you to that GB cluster last time you were down!

Grabbing or pushing into this area is great for disorienting an incoming attacker. When pressing upon this area, adversary tends to retreat with immediate loss of power in his technique. Follow-up with disbalancing opponent (ashi-barai or grab legs or shoot (for the fast and furious)). When hitting incoming attacker into this area, very dangerous. Simple fist is already enough, more damage in pinpoint precision of one-knuckle fist or fingers.
The area is a real fight stopper (one hit one kill ?).

When grabbing sweatty opponent though, grab tends to flinch off. Could leave opponent stunned for a while but don't count on it.

To everybody,

If you mean to strike this point with an your arm remember this:

If the hand of the arm that you're using is open put your corresponding foot firmly to the ground.

If the hand of the arm that you're using is closed (as in the fist) put the corresponding foot as in the cat stance (softly pulled up with the toe softly tuoching the ground)

This principle work also if you use the hand to strike, fist with cat stance or viceversa open hand with the foot on the ground.

This is an application of the yin and yang principle as relaxed and tense, open (yin) hand with tense (yang) foot, closed hand as fist (yang) with relaxed (yin) pulled up foot.
This application put your chi to flow more out from your hand. You can apply this principle also opening an hand if the other hand is striking with a fist and viceversa...
As you know this is only the tip of an iceberg about TCM, but remeber this concept help you a lot appliyng techniques.
Work with every point or techniques.
AH... I was forgetting an inportant things; applying this technique you have to make a distinction between mem and women:

MAN VS MAN and WOMAN VS WOMAN you must apply the principle as I have already defined.
MAN VS WOMAN or WOMAN VS MAN you must invert the principle: fist with foot on the ground and open hand with slightly pulled up foot (cat stance)

Somebody say that this add 25% of power to the technique, somebody other say that this add 50% of power...

I know that in accordance with the TCM the gain of power depend by your nature, tcm element, CHI TRAINING, and a lot of other things.

Try this with somebody softly striking and ask if he feel the difference.

I Would to open a new "Gavin style" principle of the month, if somebody is interested please tell me, if somebody think that these infos are not good to be shared in an internet forum please tell me...

I hope to be useful and I hope also to be comprensive.
The barrier built by my bad english is making me crazy.

Bye bye to everybody

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Daniele Nosella

Cool Daniele, blew my stuff completely out of the water. Very interesting stuff.

I would love for you to do a "me" (I like that!) principle post of the month! Oh, and for the record your english is probably a lot better then some of the posts on the forum from people whose first language is english (me included!) I found the post very imformative and concise and thoroughly hope you start the principle of the month....It's getting a bit lonely being the only one starting threads here!

Kindest regards,

Gav

PS. McSensei, guess what we're playing with at the weekend????

Fantastic.
I hope you know revival techniques because I've got to know what the full ko feels like.

I'll show you how to do the revivals mate, but I'm not putting you out. Causing you lots of pain and suffering, yes, knocking you out, no!

Yea I probably am mistaking about the Ying and Yang thing.I will need to ask my instructor about it.

Yep suspect so mate, but get back to us if we're all speaking crap though!

Ok Gav,
I will start the principle of the month monday 3 october, so I have the time to elaborate a good program for the next months....
But now, to continue our ST-9 discussion, I want to show, to you and to everyone is interested, a good demonstration of the ST-9 strike...
Download here

You can see (not so clearly) the strike with the open hand and with the foot on the ground.
The yin and yang principle is also applied in the mental state of the two opponents:
The aggressor is borried ---> tense (yang)
The "defender" is calm ---> relaxed (yin)
So when they are in contact there's a transfer of chi, like with the electric current

In the other corner is not only instructive but is also funny.

Bye bye

Daniele Nosella

It's good, but the guy forgot one crucial part. After he knocked the pimp out he forgot to say, "Howz DAT biiaaaaaaach!"

Lovely shot, prime example of practical PP's! Can't wait for the principle of the month!

Cheers mate,

Gav

I guess the pain and suffering will have to do then.

Yesterday I found a nice grab for this point some of you might like. From in front of uke, stick your left thumb into uke's right side St 9 while you put your left index into his right side LI 17. You are pinching or using an open ridge grab on the sternal head of the muscle. Twist clockwise. You ought to feel that deep right through the brachial plexus. It makes uke raise his shoulder, turn his head toward opposite leg, and makes the opposite knee buckle, which of course, sets up the kick to the inside of the left knee or above it say K1, or L9 or SP 10. I also got a rear choke from it instead of the kick since uke is turning so far already for me. Try it. I hope you like it. I'm going to try it on a bunch of people this week.

Renying St 9 is also known as heavens five meetings, it is a very good point for regulating and harmonising the qi flow between the body and head, or deharmonising as the case may be. A squeeze to Gb20 will help to bring qi back into the head after it has been disrupted, this point will relax muscles and tendons, and harmonises blood and qi.

Please take care if striking this point, permanant damage to the corotid sinus is very possible.

Kind regards,

Thanks Shi Miao Zun for the input and nice website. From your Bio it looks like you've been around the block a few times!

Gav

Thanks, I like your point of the week it keeps me on my toes with my points. I sent you a pm regarding the dillman clip if you still have a copy that would be great.

Kind regards,

I have a couple of questions and if it’s already been covered on this thread then I missed it, sorry.

How long does it take to KO a person by pressing on this PP, 5 to 10 seconds longer?
Will pressing sufficiently hard always cause unconsciousness?

Thanks

Don't press on St 9 without qualified supervision and the consent of your training partner.

Quote:

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Don't press on St 9 without qualified supervision and the consent of your training partner.

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Good advice but it doesn’t answer my question.