Funny video on Dillman student.

Posted by: BaguaMonk

Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/07/05 09:12 PM

Well I don't know about you guys, but I've been tired of these Dillman wannabes using a system that Dillman modified and made up by himself, to teach "Teh d3adly Dim Mak." It is not a seperate system, and it certaintly was not discovered by neither Kempo, nor karate people. Its been in Chinese martial arts for ages, but it has nothing to do with "touch." The "touch" is an example of internal stylists being able to use internal strikes at the pp's/vital areas to cause internal effects. Most Kempo instructors I have met are NOT masters, and have almost no "chi" training in their belts. So how can they do a touchless knockout? *which is bs anyways*
Every style of Gong fu teaches you to hit the vital areas of the body, with every applications, its not a secret, and its not a seperate system. Only difference is that masters of the old had extensive accupressure EXPERIENCE in healing, and in fighting. Unlike most Kempo instructors nowdays. Chi hardly flows through such stiff rigid movements anyways. And who the heck is going to let you use it while they stand and do nothing anyways, I don't know how people like this get away with it.

It seems like alot of it has to do with the power of suggestion, I remember long ago I was in a McDojo,whenever my "master" would demonstrate something, I would let him to do it (with resisting) and react more than I had to, when I think about it now, it had more to do with fear than nothing. Those who did resist found that what he did did not work, and he would often over do the technique on them just to teach them a lesson. I also realized he was a Kempo instructor.

Anyways here is the clip guys, I'm sure its old but I had to post it:
http://s47.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=24CPXE7QSD0OF0DS221R5UYDNK
Posted by: KiDoHae

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/07/05 10:16 PM

Hmmmm....such things are always interesting to watch. If anything, it confirmed my opinion that those jujitsu guys sure are a tough bunch.
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/08/05 12:42 AM

"It is harder to ko athletic people."

Yes, well thankyou very much.I'll come see you if I need protection from little old ladies and children.

Dillman has some good theories and techniques,but not touch ko's are ridiculous!
Posted by: nekogami13 V2.0

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/08/05 01:17 AM

If it's the one with the female reporter, priceless!
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/08/05 01:27 AM

Yeah, I love it when he hits her in the head!!

Only about 40% of people are succeptable, I wonder how those 40% knew to come to his classes.
Posted by: Kintama

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/08/05 07:14 AM

This was a good piece of junk journalism. They obviously chose this story for it's entertainment value (like a waterskiing squirrel) that made the sensei look like a moron, and rightfully so for making such claims.
Despite their efforts to expose this guy as a fraud, there will be teens lining up outside his dojo to join after seeing that segment.
Posted by: kempocos

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/08/05 11:33 AM

DIM MAK , Kyusho same principles using Traditional Chinese Medicine to map how to do the most damage. Is there a point to this other than to show a clip that has been floating around the net for a LONGGGGGG time.

One out of shape instructor using a few teenagers as uke does not prove anything exept Tom Cameron (sp?) runs a crappy program.

It is simply using TCM to explain how to cause damage nothing mystical. IMHO Chi is nothing more than a balance in mind , breath and body to allow the max power from fluid movement. Then addd the targeting that MANY years of training provides and now you have what the program should be, not yellow - green belts learning KO's.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/08/05 11:38 AM

See I knew that someone would bring this up and I would get dragged into something I have been wanting to avoid for the past six years or so.

This issue is so frustrating to me I almost can't spEAK ABOUT IT WITHOUT SHOUTing. Sorry, there that's better. First of all oas far as Tom Cameron's kyusho/tuite abilities go they are suspect and incomplete at best and nonexistant at worst. I do not doubt that he has some functional knowledge of the theories of TCM as thery apply to kyusho/tuite but as for actually being able to execute the techniques properly, well the video clip speaks for itself doesn't it.


Now dear reader this post is likely to run long, an I haven't written my opinion about this in a public forum before, it has always been in private correspondance.

Baguamonk is absolutely correct that this information (kyusho/tuite/dim mak) has always been a part of chinese arts, but it was always integral to the Okinawan sytems as well. Lately however, those who have been taught this information have seperated it from the essential teaching tools that make it possible to make these techniques second nature. This has caused a couple of MA generations that have the infromation but not the application or skills involved in order to make it work. Some have even gone so far as to seperate the entire thing into a style all its own. This has created a large group of people that are doing nothing more than monkey-see, monkey-do. The current wave of kyusho/tuite instructors don't have the ability to correctly apply this information let alone teach someone else how to do it. I usually surf the net for clips of KO's and techniques or go to a seminar here and there to see what's doin'. What I have found is that the techniques as applied by tori do not have the effects that are displayed by uke. The point selection is bad the angles and activation are not correct and the motion to transfer (flow, stance and body mechanics) is abysmal. In other words, the things that they are doing won't produce the effects that they are showing.

There are several reasons for this happening.

First, we have the loss of the understanding of the purpose of kata. Kata is THE vehicle by which this information is passed along. Everthing that is needed to train this information properly is included in the kata and I don't care how much book learnin' about TCM you have, if you don't understand and practice the kata you won't be able to apply the infomation. Even many of the older generation master instructor's (all of whom are the nicest people you would want to meet and hang out with) have separated kata practice from the application of kyusho/tuite. For years many of these master instructors were very adept at applying kyusho/tuite (although many were not) and people fell like stones. Due to many factors (like suggestion, willingness to please sensei and good old peer pressure) students began to fall for no reason. This has happened often enough to lull these teachers into a false sense of their abilities. Their form is bad, there is no transfer of energy and the basics of kyusho/tuite have been flung out of the window. Without the information contained in the kata they are doomed to this and much more. I remember when George first KO'd me back in 1992. We were in Jersey at a seminar (and off of a night of great karaoke, George does a mean James Brown) and I asked a question about a movement from a kata (I think the spearhand technique) and what it could be for. He spent a couple of minutes talking about the motions and the principles involved and then told me to attack him. I did and found myself in the middle of the finest combination of kyusho and tuite that I have ever experienced. I went out like a light bulb. Years later after the great kyusho depression was in full swing, he would just walk up a hit you and there would be little or no effect (other than what would normally be expected when getting smacked in the head). I have seen this same pattern in many of the leaders in all of the organizations and if these people have the infection what can you say for those who are on the fringes (here I speak of anyone who just goes to seminars and doesn't learn directly from a qualified teacher).

I have actually seen 'grandmasters' hitting harder and harder in a seminar setting when they are working with someone who doesn't fall when they sneeze at them. WTF are you doing hitting harder, why not just apply the principles and make it work.


Second, they now feel that anything that they do will make a person fall, and in the case of their students they are correct. It is fun to watch them scramble when they attempt to do this on someone who has no experience with this information or who has not yet been bought into their 'superman-sensei' egomania. The excuses are great and to the students sound valid, but the lay person and skeptics they are a poor attempt at rationalization.

"Wow, you've got great energy"
"You're too tense, loosen up"
"You're a natural, athlete!" or "You're naturally energtic"

as they move to grab one of their own students (leaving you alone for good), who falls like a stone.

It is to the point now that they believe so much on their own hype that they agree to give interviews on TV and fail miserably. Tom Cameron is not the only person who has had this happen. They are at fault for buying into the big lie, and their students are at fault for selling it to them. This has now even bled over into this nightmare of no-touch KO's. I really have to attempt to control my blood pressure with this one. This is the worst kind of crap I have ever seen. I have had many try this on me and it has absolutely no effect whatsoever. Others recount the same stories. Only kyusho 'homers' (someone for which the home team can do no wrong) actually fall, or buy into this at all.

There is one of the no-touch movements that can cause a person to fall backwards and become fairly disoriented but it has nothing to do with qi projection. It has everything to do with screwing up the equilibrium.

No touch knockouts are fake, entertaining perhaps but fake. I don't care who is doing them or who says they can do it they can not. I have even offered $1,000 of my own money to anyone who can KO me without touching me. No offers, go figure.

Lastly, they have seperated kyusho from tuite. This is absolute insanity. It can not be done. They are part of the same whole and when used in conjunction work everytime. I have not, not been able to KO anyone in the last five years. When you use the tools you don't need the excuses.


Kyusho/tuite KO's are ugly. They do not look like the tripe on that video clip. When you are in the grip of someone with a functional knowledge of kyusho/tuite you will know it and you will feel it.


Kempo(un-no-touchable)man
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/10/05 04:28 AM

Kempoman, that's a great post! Sounds like you got a bit of closure with that one too!

I went on a Dillman course in march and he made a few passing comments about this no touch stuff, which intrigued me to have a closer look at the subject. There's quite an extensive thread on the DSI forums which has some interesting comments by Sifu Rich Mooney. There is also some mention of the use NLP, and how they have been playing around with it. Russell Stutely has said that an NLP expert friend has been managing to put people out in under 3 seconds. In the UK, we currently have a Magician/Mentalist called Derren Brown performing some really weird stuff on members of the public using some incredible auto suggestive techniques, I've actually seen him live and he was superb. There are a few clips of him doing some of the tricks from his TV series. The pick pocketing one is brilliant!

From a personal point of view, I'm very very skepitical. I'll match Kempomans $1000 do someone who can knock me out using their energy alone. I can't say I'm really interested in pursuing these no-touch KO's, but I'm definately going to be looking into the NLP and speed hypnosis techniques when more information becomes available. Hope I haven't gone to far off topic.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/10/05 10:56 AM

Quote:

Kempoman, that's a great post! Sounds like you got a bit of closure with that one too!



A bit. I used to be the DKI rep for Texas and I still love George and Kim. They are the most generous and hospitable people you could ever meet. Most of the other people in DKI are the same (with a few exceptions). This is why I have hesitated to state my opinion publicly, but the problem is so rampant now that there just ain't no keepin' quiet no more.


Quote:

I went on a Dillman course in march and he made a few passing comments about this no touch stuff, which intrigued me to have a closer look at the subject.



It is an interesting phenomenon but only in the way that the students and members buy into it so hard.


Quote:

There's quite an extensive thread on the DSI forums which has some interesting comments by Sifu Rich Mooney.



I'll go and check it out. From all I know Rich is a great martial artist and a nice person. However, when tested in a double blind experiment the 'empty force' failed to even register.


Quote:

There is also some mention of the use NLP, and how they have been playing around with it. Russell Stutely has said that an NLP expert friend has been managing to put people out in under 3 seconds.



I am also a magician/mentalist/certified hypnotherapist/master stage hypnotist and NLP is no joke. I have heard about the speed stuff and myself and a few fellow hypnotists are looking into it right now. BTW through a mutual friend I understand that Russell has some very interesting information. I have had a few e-conversations with him myself.



Quote:

In the UK, we currently have a Magician/Mentalist called Derren Brown performing some really weird stuff on members of the public using some incredible auto suggestive techniques, I've actually seen him live and he was superb. There are a few clips of him doing some of the tricks from his TV series. The pick pocketing one is brilliant!



By all counts Derren Brown is the Sh!t.


Quote:

From a personal point of view, I'm very very skepitical. I'll match Kempomans $1000 do someone who can knock me out using their energy alone. I can't say I'm really interested in pursuing these no-touch KO's, but I'm definately going to be looking into the NLP and speed hypnosis techniques when more information becomes available. Hope I haven't gone to far off topic.



Stay skeptical, skepticism is a good thing. I think that most of the speed hypnosis stuff is based off of properly worded suggestion with some new kickass anchoring techniques. For example, you can be in state within a few seconds when someone begins to tell a story about cutting their toungue with a razor blade (made you cringe didn't I). What must take place for someone to be in state is that the conscious mind must be occupied (like give a bunch of complex instructions) and sort-of fixated on something. Anyway great post Gavin.

Kempoman
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/10/05 12:10 PM

Excellent post Kempoman! I agree with pretty much everything you said, except on the no touch KOs.

The no touch KO has been blown way out of proportion by people who`ve seen clips of it on the net.
BaguaMonk I have yet to see someone from the DKI (which Tom Cameron as far as I know isn`t) saying that the NTKO is used in self defense.

The NTKO may not be useful in self defense, but it isn`t BS. It just shows what the human mind can do. I found the link that Gavin gave very interesting and I agree with much that was said there. Someone said something interesting: "If it works from the distance, great. If it doesnt`t you`re fighting anyway".

Anyway the NTKOs don`t work on everyone, but that doesn`t mean they don`t work at all. They are easy to do on people who are very sensitive to energy, and not so easy or "impossible" to do on others. And yes they can be resisted. If someone doesn`t want to be KO without touch he won`t be. But hey, pressure points can be resisted too (to some level).

Here`s a clip of my sensei doing a NTKO. And for the record, he never said that it can be used in self defense, quite the opposite actually. www.rksi.net
Look at the guy being KOed, that doesn`t look fake to me.
Not all people fall because they want to please their teacher or something, they fall because it works.

And heres another clip of the NTKO: www.rksi.net
The person being KOed is a reporter for the Slovenian Playboy and didn`t believe in the NTKO at first.

This is what he wrote about it: "How had this happened? He settled his left hand near my neck and his right hand above my forehead.
For first few seconds nothing happened, I just stood there, monitoring his hand above me. I started to
think: »Well, jedi knight, having a bad day?« Then suddendly my vision blurred. Now what? I focus
and concetrate, but then I started to feel light tingeling in my knees, which interfered with my balance.
On top of it my vision beganc to crackle again. I regroup my balance and put my vision to order again.
With great suprise I discover that I had leaned back consideraby. How come? I straighten myself, but
my knees began to buckle and my field of vision narrowed rapidly. I thought to myself: »If I punch him
in the face, he will stop meddling with me!« But to my astonishment I couldn't move a single muscle on
my body, lest to hit him hard in the face. Remeber that sleepy feeling you got every morning when you
woke up? Well, I felt exactly the same. You are completly aware of everything: you can see, hear and
feel things around you, and yet you cannot move. My mind inquired my body about its stasus and
quickly come to the final decision: »You're going down, man!«. I came up with a symbolic resistance
for the last time, and then was overwhelmed with my body function's resignations. I fell down. And all
that from a man, who didn't even touched me!."
Here`s the entire article if anyone is interested: www.rksi.net

Anyway, IMVHO NTKOs aren`t meant for self defense (at least not yet, maybe in some distant future) but they do work. If you don`t believe in them fine, if you do, fine as well.

Oh and something else. Dillman never created a separate system of kyusho (or dim mak) as far as I know. Everyone at the DKI always said that kyusho jitsu is a theory that is incorporated in the MAs (or it is already in them), it is NOT a system all by itself.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/10/05 12:40 PM

Kosh,

Thanks for the reesponse and...

Quote:

Oh and something else. Dillman never created a separate system of kyusho (or dim mak) as far as I know. Everyone at the DKI always said that kyusho jitsu is a theory that is incorporated in the MAs (or it is already in them), it is NOT a system all by itself.



You are correct, but I was not speaking about George on this point. I was talking about KI (Evan).

I will give you my opinion on what is happening with those two NTKO's that you posted after the weekend. I don't have time right now as I am leaving to go and move to a new house this weekend. But suffice it to say this was the one I was speaking of in my earlier post. It does work but it is not chi that causes the reaction.

Kempoman
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/10/05 03:02 PM

Haha, actually I was thinking about BaguaMonks post when writing that, lol.

I`m looking forward to hear your explanation, but I think I might already know what you`ll say. This might be an interesting debate (or then again, it might not be) .
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/13/05 10:32 AM

Sorry for the delay in replying my connection at home has been down all weekend so I've had to wait until I come into work. (Off topic, but I came into the office to find 3 Russell Stutely DVD's and Mike Patricks latest book arrived! What a start to the day!)!

Kosh, I'd love to experience being put out like that. The thread that I posted went into a bit of a debate on the worthiness of actually researching this further as a Martial subject. Too me personally (from a point of ignorance ofcourse) I think I'd rather persue my PP's in actual combat study over this NTKO stuff. Just seems a little bit too much Jedi'ish for any real benefits. Any opinions?

Kempoman, could you recomend any books for the layman. I bought an NLP book a while back, but that went way over my simple head. I think the NLP stuff would seriously help in my role as a doorman (bouncer).

Gav
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/13/05 02:08 PM

In my opinion, you`ve got to study whatever interests you the most. Although I do agree with you that the NTKO doesn`t have that many benefits and that for actual combat study it is definetly better to study pressure points.

But for myself... I was alway interested in the "energy stuff", it`s what sort of makes me tick. So I know that in the future (and now) this will be the direction of my studies.

The NTKO is sort of a higher level in MA, like PP. First you have to learn the basics, learn how to defend yourself without the use of PP. Then you add PP to your techniques. And then... I like the term "players to the game". As you progress in training you just begin to add more and more players (like PP, sound, color, wave forms...).
Posted by: BaguaMonk

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/13/05 03:19 PM

The reason I don't believe that alot of these Kempo instructors can do NTKO is because they seem to have almost no real internal training background. Taiji doesn't claim to do anything mystical, it is those who know nothing about it that tend to make such generalizations. It would take an infinitely long amount of time to develop the necessary Chi and awareness to knock somebody out from such a long distance. And it wouldn't be by using a Hadouken either (you saw his hands). I just think too many people run on this "Dim Mak" bandwagon, and honestly its making alot of MMA's and traditionalists think of these people, and the traditional arts as a joke. Dian Xue was another way of saying the same thing. method of doing somethign similar, it was used exctensively in Chin na (tiger/eagle claw). Really Dim Mak was the term that meant finger pressing/stabbing the points, but the way it is incorporated into some Karate/Kempo systems seems a little ridiculous nowdays. Hitting 100lbs women/teenagers who don't even defend themselves. Remember that clip of the dude catching a kick a couple inches below his groin and then doing something else that was equally stupid to take down his opponent. When I saw them doing Kata's (the school in the video), as well as techniques, I saw no aliveness, no intensity, just running through the routines. It seems like a gimmick/selling point more than anything nowdays.

The truth is, that traditional gong fu systems wouldn't teach the more precise applications of Dim Mak like strikes because it took a long time to develop sufficient power to really make it effective, hardly anyone trustworthy reached that level anyways. Sure there are the big obvious ones that will hurt and knock out anyone, but alot of them take some serious physical and spiritual conditioning to be able to use correctly.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/14/05 03:48 AM

BaguaMonk not to disrespect you, but I personally will still remain a non-believer until I feel first hand. But, I don't have any internal training experience to base this on, just my untrusting skeptical instincts. I remember when my Dad first starting talking PP's after his first Dillman course years ago, I was a like "Yeah right!"......A couple of finger presses later and a bit of pain, it's "!#%!ing let go, I'm convinced!". So hopefully one day, when I wake up from a NTKO, I'll be suitably converted (and a $1000 lighter!)

I do agree about the intensity with which most stuff is done these days. I went to a club once and we started to the basics, I was motoring through getting really strange looks from the rest of the club. 2 hours later after basics, kata, and sparring (ha that was fun!) at my pace the bastards started getting the matts out. I was very very sore the next day. We've recently had some of our guys grade with them, and the level of difference in terms of intenisty and actually fighting spirit was off the scales.

I have personally tried to avoid using any terms with regards to the pressure point teaching, Dim Mak, Kysho, Tuite etc, I just teach when the x technique comes at you, you hit the face, neck, or for the advanced guys you can hit Stomach x, Bladder y etc. Then I go round and delight in the pleasure of hurting (ooops, demonstrating) to the higher grades the correct angle and direction of the points. On a side note, am I just a sick puppy, but does anyone else love seeing people skirm around in pain from a light touch????

Kosh, I love the idea of the players to the game. They provide an extremely structured way of introducing quite complex theories in nice digestable chunks. I've just started playing around with the wave forms, I really look like a prat swinging my hips around and waving. As I said I'm not really interested in pursuing the NTKO, partly because of the fact that I don't know what I'm doing and secondly because I'm extremely skeptical. I'm really interested in the B.A.R player at the moment, as a doorman this is going to yield the most usefulliness I think.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/14/05 02:45 PM

For the purpose of this post I will be referencing the NTKO that was linked to in an earlier post by Kosh where the hands are around the forehead and jaw areas.

This NTKO will cause the subject to lose balance and stumble backward and usually fall down. They are typically disoriented and unbalanced for about thirty seconds afterward.

I have repeated this NTKO on several subjects with the same effect. However, I do not attempt to project any kind of qi. What I have found is that the placement and movement of the hand near the forehead is key.

The hand should be placed directly in front of one of the eyes and the movement should include a in-out motion as well as a motion that twists the palm.

What I think is happening is that the subjects equilibrium is being messed with. The motion hand covering the eye causes a error in depth perception and also is a suggestion for the body to begin this same motion.

The effects of the NTKO are the same as the symptoms of a loss of equilibrium. To me it is nothing more than a magic trick, a good one, but still a trick.

I have used the same type of logic and discovery to unveil the secret behind the "unbendable arm" trick. Itself nothing more than a relaxation of the bicep (which bends the arm, or keeps is bent) and an engaging the tricep (which straightens the arm or keeps it straight).

Your comments are welcome.


Kempo(shaving with occam's razor)man
Posted by: eyrie

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/14/05 10:47 PM

Shouldn't that be Kempo(preacher)man.
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/15/05 08:24 AM

Kempoman, I think that is a good explanation and it may be true, but I`m not sure.

You said that the motion hand causes an error in depth perception. But what if the eyes are closed, how can it cause error in depth perception then? And what if the hand isn`t moving?

In my two attepmts of the NTKO that had some effect, the persons I was doing the KO on had closed eyes. And next to that I didn`t move any of my hands.
After I asked what they felt, they both said that they lost balance. One also said that his heart began to beat faster and the other one got a slight headache.

Some people don`t just feel disoreinted and fall down because of it, but because they completely lose counsciusnes (sp?), like I think the person in the first clip did. How do you explain that?

I haven`t been trying any NTKO for quite some time, but I think I will be experimenting with them in the near future again.
I will also try what you said, to do the NTKO without projecting qi. I think that it will be an interesting experiment.

But even if it will work without projecting qi, it still wont prove to me that you can`t do the NTKO with qi projection.

I have also seen the NTKO (not the same as in the clips I posted) done through a curtain, where the none of the participants could see each other. How would you explain this NTKO?

That`s really interesting what you said about the unbendable arm. Do you have any more of such discoveries?

Thanks for the replies Kempo(explaining)man.
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/15/05 08:53 AM

Hi BaguaMonk.

What do you consider real internal training to be? I think that every kempo instructor does some form of qigong, and I think some of them also practice taiji (I don`t know to what level though).

Taiji is in a way a kata and we have lots of those (although not so flowing and beatiful). I think that through katas you can train your internal power, although maybe not in the same way or to the same level as in taiji.
I wouldn`t know because the taiji taught in my town is meant more or less only for health (and I doubt they apply any of the principles that I`ve seen posted here and read about) and that alone doesn`t interest me anymore.

Quote:

The truth is, that traditional gong fu systems wouldn't teach the more precise applications of Dim Mak like strikes because it took a long time to develop sufficient power to really make it effective, hardly anyone trustworthy reached that level anyways. Sure there are the big obvious ones that will hurt and knock out anyone, but alot of them take some serious physical and spiritual conditioning to be able to use correctly.



I think that I agree with you here. In my opinion there are at least two levels on which you can effect a PP. The first IMO would be the physical, where you are actually striking nerves (which are IMO the physical manifestation of the meridians). The second one would be more "energetical" or "spiritual", where you would effect the meridian (and chi) directly, and requieres more internal training.

EDIT: LOL at the groin kick defense. We have a clip of it on our site also, but it is for demonstrational purposes only. Who in his right mind would try to catch a groing kick with his legs? If nothing else the clip show that PP can have an amazin effect. The guy is out completely .

Hi Gavin.
We do B.A.R. at our school too. I think it is great in preparing you for real life situations. It gets you tired very fast too.
EDIT: Haha, I like to see people in great pain with my minimal effort too , does that makes us sadists ?
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/15/05 09:07 AM

Quote:

We do B.A.R. at our school too. I think it is great in preparing you for real life situations. It gets you tired very fast too.



Can't wait to put the head gear and gloves on for the BAR training! Tried the Wave form stuff, spent hours yesterday waving my hands round like a prat. After 18 years, you'd think it be easy wouldn't ya!
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/15/05 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gavin

Kempoman, could you recomend any books for the layman. I bought an NLP book a while back, but that went way over my simple head. I think the NLP stuff would seriously help in my role as a doorman (bouncer).



The books on the subject are usually just some wanker wanting to show how many big words that he knows. We can have a private e-mail conversation about it.



Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

Kempoman, I think that is a good explanation and it may be true, but I`m not sure.

You said that the motion hand causes an error in depth perception. But what if the eyes are closed, how can it cause error in depth perception then? And what if the hand isn`t moving?

In my two attepmts of the NTKO that had some effect, the persons I was doing the KO on had closed eyes. And next to that I didn`t move any of my hands.
After I asked what they felt, they both said that they lost balance.

One also said that his heart began to beat faster and the other one got a slight headache.




The body in a constant state of trying to maintain balance. We are always making minor corrections in posture and alignment as well as weight distribution. When we close our eyes and attempt to stand still (as seen in the cases of the NTKO) for an
extended period of time these corrections become more exaggerated. Some are more susceptible to feeling faint or fainting so that the length of time seen in a typical NTKO is sufficient for this to happen. Increased heart rate, dizzyness are both signs of this type of syncope.

If you find that someone is susceptible to the NTKO (with the eyes closed) then test them again (with the eyes closed) but don't let them know you aren't doing anything. Just stand there like you are. See if the same symptoms occur in the subject around the same time invervals.




Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

Some people don`t just feel disoreinted and fall down because of it, but because they completely lose counsciusnes (sp?), like I think the person in the first clip did. How do you explain that?



With occam's razor. Syncope.


Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

But even if it will work without projecting qi, it still wont prove to me that you can`t do the NTKO with qi projection.



That is an interesting point. What evidence would it take to convince you that these NTKO are nothing more than either naturally occuring phenomena or entirely fake or a combination of both.


Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

I have also seen the NTKO (not the same as in the clips I posted) done through a curtain, where the none of the participants could see each other. How would you explain this NTKO?



Whether you are standing behind a curtain, door or even a steel door has no effect on whether or not you are sensitve to fainting from standing in one place for too long.

Quote:

Orignally posted by Kosh

That`s really interesting what you said about the unbendable arm. Do you have any more of such discoveries?



Kosh, I find most things in this category can be explained by body mechanics or some natural body function or design. Remember that extraoridnary claims require extraordinary evidence and that it is impossible to prove a negative.

In other words I can't prove that the pink elephant does not exist. It is up to the person making the claim that the pink elephant exists to produce the evidence required to satisfy the claim.

What you can do is to scientifically explore and test to seek evidence.

Rich Mooney (one of most well known exponents of Ling Kong Jing, powerful empty force) claimed to be able to move people with his qi. He was tested via the scientific method and the results were abysmal. There is a $1,000,000 prize for anyone who can demostrate in a controlled setting a paranormal ability. So far no one has even come close. Many have tried and have had there special power leave them when all variables are controlled.

I can do wonders right in front of your eyes becuase I am a magician, but when placed in a controlled setting I will fail to amaze.




Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
What do you consider real internal training to be? I think that every kempo instructor does some form of qigong, and I think some of them also practice taiji (I don`t know to what level though).



This in itself is not internal training. I also am a student of xingyiquan a chinese internal martial art. There is much more to internal training than just qigong and 'energy'. Head on over to the Energy Arts section and dig through some of the posts for a good idea about what internal training is.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/15/05 12:47 PM

Quote:

The books on the subject are usually just some wanker wanting to show how many big words that he knows. We can have a private e-mail conversation about it.



I've gotta feeling bumping into you is going to be an amusing and enlightening experience. I'll look forward to the conversation!
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/16/05 12:34 PM

Quote:

I've gotta feeling bumping into you is going to be an amusing and enlightening experience. I'll look forward to the conversation!



I'll send an initial e-mail in the next day or so. Things have been a bit crazy while we get the new house in order.

I look forward to the conversation.

--K
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/17/05 07:04 AM

Cheers mate!
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/17/05 11:16 AM

Quote:

That is an interesting point. What evidence would it take to convince you that these NTKO are nothing more than either naturally occuring phenomena or entirely fake or a combination of both.



Hmm, that is really an interesting point after I thought about it, because I probably can`t be convinced. To me this would just show that a person can fall down because of corrections in posture. It doesn`t show that people can`t fall down because of qi.

I don`t know, I think I`m too much a believer to be convinced otherwise. I will definitly try what you suggest in the future.

On the NTKO through a curtain, both persons were sitting on the floor with crossed legs.

Quote:

This in itself is not internal training. I also am a student of xingyiquan a chinese internal martial art. There is much more to internal training than just qigong and 'energy'. Head on over to the Energy Arts section and dig through some of the posts for a good idea about what internal training is.



That`s why I asked. I consider internal training, training of my internal energy. I haven`t got any experience with an internal MA like taiji, so I wouldn`t know what is considered internal training by an internal martial artist.

What is NLP? I mean, what uses does it have? Can it be used in MA?
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/17/05 11:28 AM

Quote:

Hmm, that is really an interesting point after I thought about it, because I probably can`t be convinced. To me this would just show that a person can fall down because of corrections in posture. It doesn`t show that people can`t fall down because of qi.



It is also doesn't show that people can't fall down because of...


...Little pink Elephants
...Quarks
or even 'The Force'

See my point?

Quote:

I don`t know, I think I`m too much a believer to be convinced otherwise. I will definitly try what you suggest in the future.



Just try and control as many elements as possible, and look at what is really happening.



Quote:

What is NLP? I mean, what uses does it have? Can it be used in MA?



Neurolinguistic Programming. It has many uses, and many within MA training.

--K
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/17/05 11:52 AM

Quote:

It is also doesn't show that people can't fall down because of...


...Little pink Elephants
...Quarks
or even 'The Force'

See my point?



I see your point, lol. But what`s wrong with The Force? Are you saying it doesn`t exist?

I actually have a book about NLP on my computer, but I completely forgot I have untill today. I never checked it out, but it looks interesting
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/17/05 02:01 PM

Kosh,

You seem like an intellectually honest person so, let's try an experiment with the NTKO.

For the purposes of documenting the experiment it would be great if you could get it videotaped.

Here are my suggestions...

The Seutup


You will need two groups of people for this experiment.

The first group would include students, known responders to the NTKO and others in this category.

The second group would include people with no information at all about qi, the NTKO or even martial arts if possible.

I think that there should be five people in each group.

Make up three index cards with the following values on them:

1) Hands up with qi projection

2) Hands up no qi projection

3) Hands down


The Work

Each subject should be blindfolded (or a curtain could be used) to the point of not being able to see what the performer is doing.

The index cards should be drawn out of a bowl or hat in a random fashion. The performer should follow the instructions on the card.

A specific amount of time should be allowed for each instruction and the same amount of time should be allocated to each one. Each of the subjects should be tested in this manner.


The groups should be controlled in the following manner:

The two groups should be tested independantly of each other (meaning no contact or sight until after both groups have been tested).

The subjects within each group should not speak to or see each other until they have been tested.

The performer should not give any cues or clues as to which instruction is being followed.


The Results


The results of each subject should be recorded on video if possible, if not then an independant panel of at least three judges should be used to record their findings.

If an independant panel (those who have no vested interest either way) is used then criteria must be established for them to mark 'Event' or 'Non Event' on cards corresponding to each subject and instruction.


These procedures should be repeated for the other group as well and the combination of results will give a more clear look into the actions and reasons for belief/non-belief in the NTKO.


Comments??


Oh yes, the force absolutely exists in a galaxy far, far away...

Kempo(Star Wars-geek)man
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/22/05 05:28 AM

Hi Kempoman!

Sorry for not replying so long, but I`ve been really busy with school.
I like the experiment, but I`ll have to talk with my sensei about doing it. I doubt we`ll be doing such an experiment anytime soon, one reason being that a lot of people will go on vacation about this time of year.

It might be hard to get people who haven`t heard about qi (most of the people I know, know at least something about it). Another thing is that most people don`t really like the idea of being KOed, with a touch or no touch. I don`t know why .

Otherwise I really like the experiment, and I`ll definitely do it in the future. When I do it I`ll post the results. Thank you for the suggestion.

There`s one thing I don`t quite understand though. Why the use of index cards? Why not just test everyone with the three ways?
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/22/05 09:54 AM

Good Day Kosh,

Sounds great.

The index cards are so that the order can be random (perhaps drawing them out of the hat), so that the order of the test are changed up (less room to cheat). Like I said, try and control as many variables as possible.

Thanks again,
Scott
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/23/05 07:48 PM

I`m not sure that I understand you. Doesn`t that mean that all three tests wouldn`t be made on everybody, but just one test per person?
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/24/05 09:39 AM

Quote:

I`m not sure that I understand you. Doesn`t that mean that all three tests wouldn`t be made on everybody, but just one test per person?



I am sorry for not being clear. Each of the three tests would be done on each individual but in a random order.

Each time a card is removed from the hat it is not replaced until the next subject is ready to be tested and all three cards are ultimately drawn for each subject.


For example:

Subject #1:
Draw 1 from hat yields: Hands Up No chi projection

Draw 2 from hat yields: Hands down

Draw 3 from hat yields: Hands Up with chi projection

Subject 2:
Draw 1 from hat yields: Hands Up with chi projection

Draw 2 from hat yields: Hands Up no chi projection

Draw 3 from hat yields: Hands down

and so on and so forth


--KM
Posted by: GSD

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/24/05 04:52 PM

I am new to this game here so excuse me if I step on toes. I am a Ryukyu-Kempo , Kyusho Jitsu instructor. Although my Sensei was a Rep. for DKI I offer no loyalty to the org. My Sensei retired from DKI and from teaching in 1998. I in turn, with his permission, re-opened his school in 1999. Sensei was one of the first in DKI (if not the first) to execute a touchless ko. He had many years of study in The Healing Tao.I think this played a major role with his success. If I understood it right , one was not attacking pressure points . It was the microcosmic orbit of the person that was under attack. There are basics to everything. Without dumb luck you can't do a pressure point ko without knowing a little about them. In the same turn you can't do a touchless without knowing a thing or two about the microcosmic orbit.
I have done ko 's and I have helped people learn to do them. I no longer do this. I teach theory. I believe no demonstration or seminar is worth taking a chance with someones health or life. One has to remember kyusho/dim mak was designed to kill. In order to further ones understanding of life and death some risks must be taken. But extreme caution should be exercised.
It makes me smile when I hear or read that someone doesn't believe soft touch or touchless ko s' are real. To me it just means there is one less person walking around with a loaded gun.
The Dillman seminars with their ko feeding frenzies towards the end of the seminars were always fun. But after giving it some serious thought I found myself asking the question "Are we doing this because we should or just because we can"?
Also , all Dillman did was bring kyusho to our attention. He planted a seed and it grew into a tree. He got people thinking. Heck, Dillman probably learned more from all of us then we learned from him.

Stranger.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/24/05 08:13 PM

GSD, I don't question that something does happen during the NTKO's, but I do seriously question what exactly is happening. I think Kempoman has already put quite a few possiable theories. As I've said before in this thread I know too little about the energetic and internal side to come up with a strong arguement for or against the NKTO, but my gutt instinct just says "Nah!". Obviously the first time I'm put out by a practical one, I'll be buying the book and DVD at the same time as grovelling to become a live in student of the person that put me out!

Your comment about those ney-sayers of touchless KO's, being one less person with a loaded gun, would suggest that you believe that the NTKO have a valid combative use. Is that the case? The stuff that I've read so far, seems to point that they are nothing more than an interesting trick, just wondering what your take on this is?

Hope that didn't come across as disrepectful, its just an interested inquiry!
Posted by: laf7773

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/25/05 01:33 AM

As i've said before, i've met people claiming to be able to do NTKOs and they had several students who had fallen to them but when they attempted the same techniques on me they failed every time. I have every bit of faith in what Kempoman has said in regards to the NTKO. When i met him he was the DKI rep for Texas. I've been his punching bag on several occasions and have felt the effects of pressure points first hand.

I do agree somewhat with GSD. Anyone walking around thinking they truly CAN perform a NTKO is walking around with a "loaded gun". Unfortunately the gun is pointed at them.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/25/05 02:26 AM

Quote:

I do agree somewhat with GSD. Anyone walking around thinking they truly CAN perform a NTKO is walking around with a "loaded gun". Unfortunately the gun is pointed at them.



LOL, I do like a good giggle first thing in the morning! And laf7773 that has most definately made me giggle!
Posted by: GSD

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/28/05 11:01 PM

Gavin,
I do not believe touchless or soft touch ko s' are practical on the street. But if one was able to project energy to the point of knocking someone out without touching them imagine what the effect would be if contact was made.
As I stated before , my Sensei is a student of the Healing Tao. He has been for many years and I do believe one would have to be in order to have any chance with a touchless.
It wasn't done at every class but we did do alot of work with Chi-energy. Everything from chi-ball exercises to rooting.We were taught to attack or counter attack with a flowing type motion. Palm strikes weren't just solid strikes they were "springy palm" techniques from the "iron palm" system. Flowing movements , not straight on stiff strikes transfer "Chi".
Even my punches were changed so there was somewhat of snap to the wrist.
Internal Arts play a big role in the Arts. I don't know what style or styles you study but if you're not adding the soft side to your training you're missing out on an incredible part of MA. Besides, sometimes the soft side hurts worse.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I've seen some stuff on DVD by people I KNOW and at one time or another respected that made me shake my head. Somethings are better left unsaid and hidden.
Me myself , I've never claimed to be able to do anything unless I could back it up 100%. This way if someone put $1000 on the table , I'd be the one picking it up not the one looking like a fool.
I've seen some things that made me wonder if I was watching an instructional video or Bennie Hinn "healing" someone!
GSD.
Posted by: laf7773

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 01:20 AM

GSD what is your instructors name?

The deal is no one is able to project energy the way you are describing. You may want to rethink things and find another instructor. None of the teachings you described from your instructor lead me to believe he has any idea he knows what he is talking about.
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 10:36 AM

Laf why should he find a new instructor, if he teaches something YOU don`t believe is possible? I don`t mean to be offensive or anything but if you don`t believe it or haven`t experienced it to be true, it does`t mean it
doesn`t exist or isn`t possible.

I don`t doubt there are many who don`t know what they`re talking about, but there are still those that know.
Posted by: Kempoman

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 11:14 AM

If I may...


Quote:

Laf why should he find a new instructor, if he teaches something YOU don`t believe is possible? I don`t mean to be offensive or anything but if you don`t believe it or haven`t experienced it to be true, it does`t mean it
doesn`t exist or isn`t possible.



There is absolutely no evidence to support the 'projection' of qi, ki, chi or whatever you want to call it over a distance. None, nada, nunca. Every single time it has been tested using the scientific method and in a controlled environment the magical powers of the person seem to dissappear. They magically re-appear when they are back in class with the same people who have fallen prey to their illusion. This is why I provided the test case for you to try Kosh. I want you to do the test and see for yourself.

There is a $1,000,000.00 US prize waiting for anyone who can do this in a controlled environment. Guess what, noone has even come close to passing the prelimnary test. Rich Mooney (who by the way is a fantastic martial artist) practiced and proclaimed to have the power of ling kong jing (powerful empty force). He went around the country and the world and knocked over entire rows of individuals by simply pointing and them with his 'power'. This power was demonstrated in many different ways including

...attackers running at Rich with knives and being flung to the ground with a wave of his arms before getting anywhere close to him

...making people fall while seperated by a door
...making people fall while seperated by a curtain
...and many more great and wonderful things were shown

he was supported by DKI, DSI, KI and anyone who was interested in gaining this magical power.

Surely the greatest exponent of this ability to project chi over a distance would be able to perform a simple test of simply making a few people move with no barrier between them.

When tested much in the same manner in which I have suggested to you for the NTKO's there was absolutely NO EFFECT SHOWN.

Please see An Empty Force


People are gullable. As P.T. Barnum is rumored to have said, "There's a sucker born every minute" or something to that effect.

I'll give you an even simpler test. Go grab someone off of the street and instruct them to walk up to any of these grand poobahs of the magical chi blast and pour a glass of water on their heads. Instruct the chi maker to use their chi to knock the attacker out or down.

I leave the rest to you imagination.

Quote:

I don`t doubt there are many who don`t know what they`re talking about, but there are still those that know.



You are correct there are many who don't know that they are deluding themselves and others and then there are some who know exactly what they are doing.

--KM
Posted by: Kosh

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 11:25 AM

Lol
I`m sorry, I believe in qi projection and I`m not gullable or a sucker (well, alright, sometimes I am, but aren`t we all?). I understand what you`re saying though.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 11:43 AM

Quote:

Lol
I`m sorry, I believe in qi projection and I`m not gullable or a sucker (well, alright, sometimes I am, but aren`t we all?). I understand what you`re saying though.



  • gullable?-no
  • sucker?-no
    the only thing left is:
  • misinformed?-inform yourself
    or:
  • gullable?-rethink
  • sucker?-rethink
    • Posted by: Kempoman

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 11:48 AM

    Quote:

    Lol
    I`m sorry, I believe in qi projection and I`m not gullable or a sucker (well, alright, sometimes I am, but aren`t we all?). I understand what you`re saying though.



    I think that there is a tendancy to want to believe in things that are greater than ourselves (hence the need for a god) or that humankind is greater than we appear to be (hence the need for telepathy, chi projection, magical healing etc). I think that this is natural, some though require evidence before succombing to these beliefs. These people are known as skeptics.

    I am a skeptic, I need proof to believe. That is not to say that I do not wish to believe, because I do. Just as I no longer can believe in the tooth fairy or santa claus due to the lack of evidence for their existance, I must acknowledge the same lack of evidence to support the existance of 'chi projection over a distance'. Pigs may indeed be able to fly but they have yet to show evidence to that effect.


    --KM
    Posted by: laf7773

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 12:47 PM

    To put it simply, everything he just described as teachings by his instructor scream fraud. If his instructor truly believes in what he is teaching then he may very well be the victim of a fraud himself. Nonetheless NTKOs and projecting chi over a distance is not real. You can choose to believe in it all you want but no matter how much you believe it's not going to make it true. No many how many times you stomp your feet and scream "i've seen it done", until you have seen it done in a CONTROLED environment as Scott has suggested it is not real.

    I invite anyone who believes in this sort of thing to do some REAL research into the subject and stop looking only to those with the same beliefs for their information. Not all of these guys are liars and frauds; some have been duped just like the rest of their students.
    Posted by: GSD

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 07:54 PM

    Sir,
    You really have no need to know the name of my Sensei. I will tell you that he was a key figure in DKI. He left DKI because of the politics involved in all MA.
    As far as projecting energy goes, I'm sorry but I think it is you that should rethink things and find a new instructor.
    My Sensei s' touchless ko s' were from several inches away. It wasn't from 3 feet away ,and he didn't have us run at him while he struck a very impressive stance. He is a very honest man that never held us back from entering other styles of study. A matter of fact he encouraged us to seek out other styles and instructors. It was his belief that this would only serve to make us better Martial Artists. Sounds quite similar to Funakoshi s thinking, huh? You do know Funakoshi , right?
    Now, let me ask you a question. Have you been able to break 5 pcs of 2" thick concrete with a palm strike that only travels 4 to 5"? Okay, how about breaking an uncracked coconut with a palm strike that travels only 12"? Here's a little test for you to try if you so desire. Set a stack of cinder blocks up so you can place 3 pcs. of 2" thick concrete on top of each other. No spacers please. Now, do a palm strike on them. Breaking the stack is not the goal. The goal is to break only the one on the bottom.
    I have done each one of these things repeatedly for many people.
    Now , I do feel the need to say I am sorry if I appear rude. After all, being polite is one of the best self-defense techniques there is. It does upset me when I come across people with closed minds. Not to overuse an old saying but, "The mind is like a parachute , it only works when it is open".
    I know the men of DKI, DSI and other newer offsprings. I find some of the things they are demonstrating a bit hard to digest also. So we agree on that.
    I say to you believe what you want , it's your right, but don't tell someone they should rethink things and find a new instructor. When you say things like that it makes you sound like you only read the fighting part of the book and ignored the part on proper behavior.
    Here is something I'd like to share with you. "He who conquers himself is the greatest warrior" (Samurai Maxim). After your statement that I should find a new instructor I'd say that you need some work on manners,son.
    GSD.
    Posted by: GSD

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 08:04 PM

    Sir,
    You were the Rep. for DKI in Texas?

    GSD.
    Posted by: GSD

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 08:22 PM

    You will go far in the studies of the Arts because of your open mind.I don't know your rank or the rank of Mr. Laf and it doesn't really matter. Rank means very little to me.
    I've rubbed shoulders with some of the most famous Martial Atists in the world . You wouldn't believe how many of them are really just the south end of a north bound horse.
    If you have an interest in energy transfer (not nec. touchless ko s') check out Rick Clark , Erle Montigue , James Lacy and Montak Chia .
    Oh yes , thanks for the supporting words.
    GSD.
    Posted by: BaguaMonk

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/29/05 08:28 PM

    Wow, I never expected this thread to grow some big, I haven't read all so I might be editing this post soon without my own inputs.

    If your talking about the middle-forhead knockout point, that is a common dim mak/accupressure point, and it is what Televangelists use to trick people into "the power of god" knocking them out.

    You can tell wether a person practices internal arts, or the study of chi gong, by the way they move. In forms, punches, heck even kicks. Dim Mak was usually used in conjunction with Fa Jing. I really don't think most of these people who claim to be able to do such things have the sufficient internal training, nor even physical training to make them effective in a real situation. There are some of the more obvious ones around the head area, which can be used by almost anyone. But for the most part, its partly power of suggestion, and also alot of gimmicks. There are sorts of tricks, that have to do with body mechanics, physics, etc. that many have used for ages to show off, but nowdays its actually used to make people sign up for classes.

    In the more external gong fu styles, ALOT of physical conditioning was required, and back then when practice was heavy, the vital areas (head, groin, neck) were the most heavily protected of them all. So being able to use your tools/weapons (hands, fingers, fist, etc.) to penetrate into small openings that were exposed was a pretty valuble skill. The physical training was difficult, with streneous physical activities, and hard chi gong excercises to strengthen the muscles/bones/ligaments. For example they would use their fingers like an iron rod, or the pheonix eye, and correct angle of direction.
    Posted by: laf7773

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/30/05 02:57 AM

    Quote:

    You really have no need to know the name of my Sensei.



    This is simple, if you have nothing to hide, if your not lying about anything you have posted here then there is NO reason not to say whom your instructor is. This is a typical response form those with something to hide.

    Quote:

    As far as projecting energy goes, I'm sorry but I think it is you that should rethink things and find a new instructor.



    I tell you what. You show me one instructor that can actually do NTKOs under a controlled test and i will be more than happy to study with them. The FACT is no one claiming this ability has been able to perform it on anyone other than their students and associates.

    Quote:

    My Sensei s' touchless ko s' were from several inches away.



    On whom did he do these KOs? What proof do you have to support these rediculous claims? Energy projection of this kind is not possible.

    Quote:

    He is a very honest man that never held us back from entering other styles of study.



    This doesn't excuse the fact that the things you claim he is teaching are nothing more than tricks that have nothing to do with energy transfer. As i said before your instructor may very well be the victim of a fraud himself.

    Quote:

    You do know Funakoshi , right?



    Since you’re new i'm going to ignore this ridiculous implication.

    Quote:

    Now, let me ask you a question. Have you been able to break 5 pcs of 2" thick concrete with a palm strike that only travels 4 to 5"? Okay, how about breaking an uncracked coconut with a palm strike that travels only 12"?



    How would this prove the NTKO is possible? You see i don't test my training by beating up bricks and coconuts. I know my training works because i've actually used my training to defend myself both here in the states and overseas. As for the coconut breaking, it's a gimmick. Ask Kempoman, he can break them and even tell you how it's done. Granted i believe he has said it does take some conditioning but from what i remember it has nothing to do with energy transfer.

    Quote:

    Here's a little test for you to try if you so desire. Set a stack of cinder blocks up so you can place 3 pcs. of 2" thick concrete on top of each other. No spacers please. Now, do a palm strike on them. Breaking the stack is not the goal. The goal is to break only the one on the bottom.



    Again with the breaking bits. They are tricks to wow the gullible.

    Quote:

    Now , I do feel the need to say I am sorry if I appear rude. After all, being polite is one of the best self-defense techniques there is.



    As well you should. At no point did i attack you personally. I also did not attack your instructor. I have attacked your beliefs, which if you have any concrete proof you should have no trouble proving me wrong. Somehow i seriously doubt it will happen considering you have said NOTHING different than anyone before you. Repeating "yes i can, yes i can" doesn't mean you are right. You however have made a few implications regarding my level of knowledge, which is a personal attack. Feel free to read some of my old posts, i've lain out my experiences and training quite often.

    Quote:

    It does upset me when I come across people with closed minds.



    This again. How am i the one with the closed mind? Because i don't blindly believe in the same unproven nonsense as you? Am i close minded because i require proof of such outrageous claims before i commit my time and energy training with such a technique? Or are you the one who is closed minded because you are unable to see the fact that you might be getting conned? Your blind devotion to an ideal or concept that can only be proven within the environment of your choosing and can't stand up to ANY true tests is what makes you close minded. Being open minded isn't the blind belief that anything is possible; it's the ability to gather information from both sides of the argument before making your decision. I have done this and in the years i've been training EVERY person who claimed they could do a NTKO has failed when asked to perform it on someone other than a student or associate.

    Quote:

    Not to overuse an old saying but, "The mind is like a parachute , it only works when it is open".



    By blindly following your instructor and not asking questions of both him and others you are being closed minded. You are the one whose chute has failed to open because you refuse to recognize that the facts are stacked against you here.

    Quote:

    I say to you believe what you want , it's your right, but don't tell someone they should rethink things and find a new instructor.



    Me telling you to rethink things is the same as telling you to open your mind. Finding another instructor doesn't mean leaving the one you have all together. It means find another perspective and open your chute.

    Quote:

    When you say things like that it makes you sound like you only read the fighting part of the book and ignored the part on proper behavior.



    Before you put your foot in your mouth you should really read through things again. As i said before i've made no personal attacks, unlike you. If suggesting you open your mind and educate yourself is rude then i'm guilty. The simple fact is i will not allow this type of misinformation to be spread on any forum that i moderate. Until you can produce valid proof of such techniques it will not be allowed here. Pressure point work is serious and valid part of the martial arts but because of the numerous frauds claiming NTKO's and five point exploding heart techniques it's rarely taken seriously or practiced seriously.

    GSD you have two tasks ahead of you here. Tell us who your instructor is that is able to perform the NTKOs and provide proof that they work and are a result of energy transfer. If you are telling the truth then these two things should be very easy. Do that and you can talk about NTKOs all you want. Until then stick to PP discussions or they will be removed.

    P.S. If your instructor can do a NTKO, why hasn't he attempted the million dollar challenge? Let me guess, no need for the money, no desire to give it to charity, doesn't want to show off, no need to prove anything? Those are the most common, choose one or make up you own.
    Posted by: Kempoman

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/30/05 11:31 AM

    Duuuude...chiiill.

    Quote:

    Sir,
    You were the Rep. for DKI in Texas?

    GSD.



    I was but I am no longer. Haven't been in quite a while. As far as I know there has not been one since I left.

    Why?

    and

    I think that you are completely missing Lane's point. He is not attacking your style, abilities or actual training that you have received (actually this type of question is one he asks to almost everyone). He is challenging you on your beliefs about energy-transfer at a distance and NTKO's. You seem to have taken it for something that it was not. If he is a little rude or touchy on the subject it is very understandable due to having to deal with an almost non-stop influx of idiots on this and the Energy Arts forums that insist on being able to fire chi-balls, jing-blasts and kamehamaeha attacks. I know, I used to moderate both of these forums.


    That being said I have no idea why you would have a problem with naming your instructor, it still would leave you anonymous.

    BTW I can do all the same breaks without projecting chi. (I can even liquify the inside of a watermelon!)

    I have studied (and achieved) Lacy's Iron Palm, Springy Palm, Burning Palm etc as well as Gray's Iron Palm method.

    The coconut is not bad after the proper conditioning and is a genuine (fair) break. The others are just physics, much like breaking hundreds of pounds of ice.

    None of this however has anything to do with energy-transfer at a distance. You instructor could be $1,000 dollars richer if he can NTKO me and $1,000,000 richer if he can demonstrate it in a controlled evironment during a scientific test.

    Oh yes and welcome to the forums, we are so use to the 13 yr-old DBZ/Ninjutsu master making life hell here we sometimes forget our manners.

    Debate is never bad, extraordinary claims must be supported with extraordinary evidence. There are several skeptics here and we love to see ourselves type.

    -KM
    Posted by: kempocos

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/30/05 04:49 PM

    GSD I am curiuos about what DSI inforamtion you have issue with. I find they tend to be far from the DKI and KI approach.
    Posted by: GSD

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/30/05 08:01 PM

    Okay, I'm chilled out and I do apologize for jumping the gun.
    My original post was coming from a person that had been ko 'd not just someone that had watched a video. I know Lane said it was never sucessful on him. Even with pressure point ko s there are always some people that are resistant.Some people don't feel some common attacks to pressure points.Anyone that has worked pressure points has seen this.
    I'm not trying to make excuses. It is the same as some people can take a good shot to the jaw and others are ko'd by the same shot.
    Like I said before the touchless worked on me. I didn't fall down pretending. Whatever it was that he did ,it worked.
    We never tried or even talked about shooting "Chi-balls or fire balls from our hands. I don't remember ever saying anything like that.The Chi Ball exercise was to bring chi into the hands for healing purposes. I know, if one doesn't believe in being able to do damage they won't believe in being able to do damage.
    I did say that even though I'd been ko'd with a touchless I find some of these things a bit much to digest.
    As far as the breaks go , I never did any special conditioning on my hands. No oils before or after.No slapping sand or gravel.
    With the coconut breaks , I bought a coconut with no cracks , set it on the ground and broke it. I also had some success with level 2. If there are any tricks involved , they weren't done by me because I didn't know them.
    Thanks for setting me straight on the direction Lane was coming from.
    GSD.
    Posted by: GSD

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/30/05 08:09 PM

    I have no problems with the DSI or DKI orgs. . The info. I got from them helped improve my technique. They are nice people and always willing to help.

    GSD.
    Posted by: GSD

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 06/30/05 09:17 PM

    I offer my apology for the attack.I hope you accept it. I didn't understand where you were coming from. I guess I demonstrated how narrow my thinking can be at times.
    I'm sorry if I came off like the others with the touchless ko. My original post was just to say it had been done on me and it worked. That's all.
    I can't prove it was "Chi" and I can't disprove it. I can only say that it put me down and I really don't think it was the power of suggestion that did it.

    I've never claimed to be able to do them , I've never even tried.
    Now I'm not trying to be a wise guy but as far as my instructor goes ,I don't think he cares to Prove himself to anybody no matter how much money is involved.Besides , he is retired. It does surprise me that the many active people claiming to be able to do them haven't stepped forward.

    GSD.
    Posted by: laf7773

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 02:30 AM

    I do come across a bit harsh at times but you have to understand my position. Make a run through some of the old threads in this section and the energy arts section and you will see why. I am a firm disbeliever in the NTKO, chiblast and other techniques like this for a very good reason. I've been training for 23 years and have circled the globe 4 times visiting 11 countries, not to mention the number of cities i've visited while in service. In that time and travel i've met a LOT of martial artists and so called "masters" and i've met several who made these exact claims and used these same tricks. None have been able to prove any of their claims under controlled circumstances.

    I'm not one of these people who have any kind of resistance to energy work or pressure points as Scott can tell you. He's put me on the floor a few times in the past using PP techniques.

    As far as your experience with the NTKO and it working on you. The power of suggestion is strong. I don't know exactly what it is he does or how he is conducting his NTKO but i would be fairly certain that there is some trick to it and it has nothing to do with energy transfer.

    On the point of none of the numerous people claiming to be able to perform a NTKO not stepping forward to prove it. There is a good reason for this. In order to maintain the illusion of their skill they must maintain their set controls. Just like no good magician is going to let anyone dictate how he performs his tricks, these "masters" aren't going to allow someone to set controls for them as it will break the illusion. You will notice that during seminars these people may attempt a technique and fail, when they do they will quickly change the subject and find another volunteer. This is if they are even using volunteers, some will only use their students. Many don't have a problem doing seminars because they know the only people willing to shell out money to see this stuff are people with similar beliefs who may be willing to exaggerate an experience if only to not offend the instructor.

    In some cases like you, you may not even realize why you are going down. How would you feel though if i told you Scott was capable of doing NTKOs with you knowing he has a similar background as your instructor (dki), then have him perform a NTKO the same way as your instructor and get the same results (you go down). Only to have him later tell you the way he did it was a trick and had nothing to do with energy transfer. Would you then start to wonder why Scott had the same result if he didn't use energy transfer?

    There is also the practicality of it. IF this technique were possible, what use would it be? Look at the Yellow bamboo guys. They claimed similar "skill" and were proven frauds. People making these claims will always set limitations on the technique. It's understandable that all techniques have limitations but these limitations shouldn't include things like geographic location or the fact that the "victim" isn't part of the organization or a friend of the instructor.

    With that i hope you can understand why i restrict the discussion in this forum to those things that have been somewhat proven. We all know PPs work, the debate is to what extent and how practical. I personally would LOVE to be able to render people unconscious with out touching them, it would come in real handy in my line of work. Unfortunately i have seen no supporting proof to this day. Everything i have seen only supports the contrary.
    Posted by: Gavin

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 05:59 AM

    GSD, thank you for the reply and apologies for the delay in responding, I've been away on a business trip. This threads grown quite a bit since my last post so I hope I don't repeat anything.

    The system I study is called Go So Kempo, unfortunatey we don't really know the origins of our system and how it came to be taught in the UK. My Dad took over as Chief instructor from a guy named John Doyle who was killed in an Motorcycle accident. Unfortunately Mr Doyle wasn't the most forth coming man regarding his own training history, when he died we lost all chance of tracing our roots. So I'm not too sure where our stuff come from. I've recently brought the Wave form DVD's by Russell Stutely and have found that they're something we've already been doing similar stuff in our techniques in one form or another for years. What I have found through actually practicing the Wave form excecises are that they are a wonderful way of isolating the motions used in generating power.

    So to actually get to my point (sorry for the round the houses trip) alot of the stuff that I've read about as being 'internal', it seems that I'm already getting that affect by simply applying the proper body mechanics. I've actually read both Russell Stutely and other respected martial artists saying that they haven't seen anything that the internal school thought can do, that can't be replicated with the correct body mechanics. I hope this isn't off topic, but could someone either confirm or enlighten my dribble please!

    Gav
    Posted by: Kempoman

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 10:57 AM

    Quote:

    Okay, I'm chilled out and I do apologize for jumping the gun.



    No worries. As one can tell this subject is one that generates controversy and provokes an amost religious response in people on both sides. So again welcome.

    Quote:

    My original post was coming from a person that had been ko 'd not just someone that had watched a video. I know Lane said it was never sucessful on him. Even with pressure point ko s there are always some people that are resistant.Some people don't feel some common attacks to pressure points.Anyone that has worked pressure points has seen this.
    I'm not trying to make excuses. It is the same as some people can take a good shot to the jaw and others are ko'd by the same shot.
    Like I said before the touchless worked on me. I didn't fall down pretending. Whatever it was that he did ,it worked.




    There are physiological reasons as to why it did. I can do two NTKO-looking thingys (that's a technical term) now that will cause the people to fall about 70% of the time. One is a based on a combination of sensitivity to to go syncope from standing too long in one position and a disturbance of the equilbrium.

    The other works based on a preconditioned response that involves the amygdala (the amygdala serves as a simple Pavlovian learning machine that associates aversive events with neutral events).

    I started working with this idea after watching some of the DKI and KI people doing a new type of demonstration where they allow the person to actually hit them in the stomach a few times and then of the last one they do a 'magic chi blast' and the suject falls like they were hit by a car. Allowing the subject to make contact puts them in a certain frame of mind and then on the next attempt the demonstrator unexpectedly yells and makes a motion toward like an attack. This causes the amygdala to take over (just like when I see a spider and scream like a little sissy-boy, even if there is a sexy lady watching)
    and the response is automatic. It is a NTKD(own) but has nothing at all to do with qi.

    It does not need to be mystical to work. What is not happening is any sort of energy project at a distance.


    Quote:

    We never tried or even talked about shooting "Chi-balls or fire balls from our hands. I don't remember ever saying anything like that.The Chi Ball exercise was to bring chi into the hands for healing purposes. I know, if one doesn't believe in being able to do damage they won't believe in being able to do damage.



    I think you meant if one doesn't believe in being able to do damage they won't believe in being able heal. If so, then I disagree. What I said and continue to say is that there is no chance to project energy at (or across) a distance. I practice energetic healing and have been worked on by some really great people. Now, I don't think that you can cure cancer with it but pain relief and such I feel do work.

    Quote:

    I did say that even though I'd been ko'd with a touchless I find some of these things a bit much to digest.



    As well you should, but question the explanation and look for the root cause (like above).

    Quote:

    As far as the breaks go , I never did any special conditioning on my hands. No oils before or after.No slapping sand or gravel.
    With the coconut breaks , I bought a coconut with no cracks , set it on the ground and broke it. I also had some success with level 2. If there are any tricks involved , they weren't done by me because I didn't know them.



    There are tricks that can be done with the coconut, but I will not reveal them here and start a rash of coconut breaking masters.

    Also, you hands must be fairly hard to hit the coconut without doing the conditioning work. The first time I attempted the break (pre-conditioning) my hand was purple for about 2 weeks. The thing about Lacy's Internal Iron Palm training (no matter what one may think of Lacy himself) allows the hands to be conditioned without and detrimental side-effects.
    This is important to me because I play the guitar and am a magician.


    Quote:

    Thanks for setting me straight on the direction Lane was coming from.
    GSD.



    Just be thankful that Lane is moderating now, I used to be a pr!ck.

    --KM
    Posted by: Kosh

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 12:22 PM

    JoelM, I did rethink and I still think I`m not a sucker or gullable. I may be misinformed, but I don` think so. Though I`m not sure what you mean by misinformed.
    You could pose the same kind of questions to a couple billion people on Earth that believe in god.

    GSD, I`ve never heard of James Lacy (I think). Who is he and can you reccomend some books?

    Kempoman have you ever read "The end of time" by Jiddu Krishnamurti and David Bohm? Hard book to read, but if I remember correctly, in it Krishnamurti says something about wanting to be greater, to be better, to be something else is the cause of suffering.

    Kempoman I think you`re talking about sound KOs? An interesting explanation, but what is an amygdala?

    Quote:

    just like when I see a spider and scream like a little sissy-boy, even if there is a sexy lady watching



    Lol
    That happened to me at school once, a spider appeared out of nowhere on my knee. I jumped and screamed and tryed to get it off me. Damned spiders lol.

    I think the debate in this thread was pretty good and "civilized" in comparison to some other threads (here or on other forums).
    Posted by: Kempoman

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 12:59 PM

    Quote:

    GSD, I`ve never heard of James Lacy (I think). Who is he and can you reccomend some books?



    Lacy is a person who studied for a while with GM Doo Wai (of White Tiger GungFu). He has some videos from Panther Prod. and on his own website. I've spoken to him on several occasions and he is very helpful. His life and lifestyle have been the subject of much controversy.

    Just google for 'coconut break' and you'll find him.

    Quote:

    Kempoman have you ever read "The end of time" by Jiddu Krishnamurti and David Bohm? Hard book to read, but if I remember correctly, in it Krishnamurti says something about wanting to be greater, to be better, to be something else is the cause of suffering.



    No I haven't, but I'll check it out. Love to read.

    Quote:

    Kempoman I think you`re talking about sound KOs? An interesting explanation, but what is an amygdala?



    Yes, I think that you are correct. They are calling them sound KO's. The explanation is a very well documented natural physiological process and I feel that they either know that they are using it or have stumbled into using it...but they are using it.

    The amygdala is a small almond-shaped area of the brain that is very heavily involved in the fear response mechnism. Call it fight-or-flight or Body Alarm Reaction it is regulated by this area of the brain. Scientists have been doing studies into this are for some time and are now beginning to understand what is happening. It is also believed to be involved with rapid-programming of human behaviour.

    You can do some very cool things with it as far as making people miss you when they strike and other such things.

    Quote:

    I think the debate in this thread was pretty good and "civilized" in comparison to some other threads (here or on other forums).



    I agree. These subjects usually go bad really fast. It speaks volumes for everyone posting here.

    --KM
    Posted by: laf7773

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 01:41 PM

    Quote:

    You can do some very cool things with it as far as making people miss you when they strike and other such things.



    It as a lot to do with deceptive movement, peripheral vision and it's link to the amygdale and how it's hard wired. There has been discussion here in a few different threads about this. It's referred to as choshi dori in some Japanese systems. Is there a "Chinese" version?
    Posted by: Kempoman

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 02:40 PM

    Quote:

    It as a lot to do with deceptive movement, peripheral vision and it's link to the amygdale and how it's hard wired. There has been discussion here in a few different threads about this. It's referred to as choshi dori in some Japanese systems. Is there a "Chinese" version?



    Not that I am immediately aware of. I have spoken with Dale Seago about the chosi dori stuff and he is who pointed me down the path of the studying the amygdala.

    This area of the fear response mechinism, body alarm reaction and rapid behaviour programming is a gold-mine.

    Scott
    Posted by: BaguaMonk

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/01/05 03:22 PM

    I agree with you for the most part laff. These gimmicks are almost as bad as the iron body tricks. Even those aren't as bad, because they are just training tools to aid in controlling chi/blood flow. But alot of these supposed knock outs, and no touch knockouts, are heavily influenced by the power of suggestion, fear (of teacher), an idolization. I wes once a victim of this, and sometimes when he would do the pressure point presses/grabs, I would purposefully drop, or sometimes even feel pain just so he wouldn't get mad at me. I don't mean to generalize, but most kempo instructors, don't impress me in any way, shape, or form. Wether its their practicec (which usually is pretty lifeless), forms, techniques, ego trips, etc. I'm just not impressed, in particular with this "Dim Mak" stuff, it exists...but not the way I have seen Kempo instructors teach it.
    Posted by: laf7773

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/02/05 02:38 AM

    I gathered a little info form him as well then went on to find out what i could. I came across a bit about "Hijacking the amygdala" that explains a bit as to why choshi dori works.
    Posted by: Kempoman

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/05/05 03:49 PM

    A little more on how this short-circuiting or 'hijacking' of the amygdala as Lane nicely put it works and how it is related to this new Sound NTKO demonstration.

    Our eyes take in visual cues and stimulation which is passed to the thalamus. The thalamus kind of decides where the information should go, in this case the visual cortex. The visual cortex analyzes the input (impulse) and then decides where to send it. If it is decided that there is something to get excited about then the signal is sent to the amygdala, the hippocampus is consulted for the 'appropriate' reaction and cocktail. However if a potiential threat is realized it will bypass the visual cortex and send the signal straight to the amygdala. In this pattern the amygdala can only react based on previously stored patterns.

    Now how this relates to the NTSKO.

    If you notice the qi master will allow the subject to punch them in the stomach several times with success. This will establish a pattern of the normal path of eyes-thalamus-visual cortex with no need to send the signal to the amygdala. Then without any prior notification on the next attempted punch, the qi master makes a threatening motion toward coupled with a kiai.

    This is perceived as a direct threat and causes the thalamus to route the input directly to the amygdala. The amygdala has no option to consult the hippocampus for the appropriate reaction and must react based on previous behaviour. This causes the subject to fall and cover, the shocked nature of the subject is a result of the nice 'cocktail' that has been released as a result.


    Make any sense?

    --KM
    Posted by: Kosh

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/05/05 07:20 PM

    I think it makes sense. But what if the person doing the NTSKO tells the person being KOed what he will do. I`ve seen a clip of a sound KO and the master told when he was going to do it.

    Now kiai and energy transfer aside, do you think that "hijacking" the amygdala is useful in reality?
    Posted by: BaguaMonk

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/16/05 12:53 PM

    I hate to say it, but "no." Just MO.

    Its a cool gimmick, and party trick though. Maybe it will help in new student registrations.
    Posted by: Savatuer

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/18/05 08:24 PM

    This has probably been posted before, but I didn't bother to read every post. Now, the reason I believe that these pressure points work on students and not outside people like those reporters is that the students have had an extreme buildup of fear of the effects of these techniques before expierencing them done on themselves.
    Posted by: Citrushead

    Re: Funny video on Dillman student. - 07/20/05 12:18 AM

    By the way, not sure if anyone caught this, but one of the JJ guys he tries it on is Stephan Bonner from the UFC reality show that was on Spike TV.