Dim-Mak and other related stuff

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just to play "devil's advocate" for a moment... do you think a pistol will kill you, or do you have to look down the barrel of one and pull the trigger for the evidence?

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2nd question would be: "how much actual training in Dim Mak do you have?

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Whoops!

*whistles, backs slowly out of the thread*

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I am not aware of much similar evidence regarding Dim Mak deaths

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And why would you be? Most scientific research is tendered toward finding what killed someone, not necessarily how and when the injury was incurred. Dim Mak strikes are designed not necessarily to cause instant death, but injuries that cause death from hematomas, clots, and all kinds of other "injuries" that can be initiating "naturally occuring" injuries or getting a little help from the outside to cause different body systems to shut down.

Talk to a surgeon sometimes about hitting the vagus nerve in the neck. It's the most widely used pressure point knockout vehicle (ST-9)(and one of the most dangerous) because it is connected to every major organ in the body. Hitting there can cause all kinds of body shutdowns that can't be repaired without acupuncture therapy or other medical procedures, and those "experts" that hit that point all the time are depending on resucication techniques to wake somebody up, but they never think about the damage beyond "waking the uke up". They can be causing liver, kidney, heart and all kinds of other damage that isn't evident from their initial encounter.

A lot of Dim Mak works through the autonomic nervous system as well, and it's like an "unopened e-mail" to the body. When it does it's damage, it causes body systems to begin failing or the blood system to start breaking down. Strategically placed "small clots" can break loose and become dangerous clots as they're transferred to the brain or lungs.

Modern medicine has a lot of new cures for things that were once lethal, and it has diminished the Dim Mak effectiveness by some measure, but unless someone gets the diagnosis immediately correct on a lot of the injuries, there's still time for a Dim Mak strike to do its job. I'm realistic enough to know that everything in Dim Mak isn't still the mystical theory that it once was, but it's not completely discounted either.

Like the cardio cortis phenomenon, there are a lot of things that happen that the skeptics won't consider evidence, and the "true believers" think is clear evidence, so it's still just a difference of opinion. Like shooting that pistol we discussed, accuracy has a lot to do with the effectiveness of it as well. You don't learn the stuff overnight, and it was kept from most of the students for most, if not all, of their training lives. While it's still "wrapped in mystery", I wouldn't discount it strictly because somebody's not "producing the bodies" to prove the technique. If that's necessary, show me the bodies of those from the pistol analogy...

My mother, who had surgery on her carotid artery for a clogged artery, said that her own surgeon mentioned that damage to that area was very "critical" and that he had to be careful to insure that he did no damage that might cause a clot or damage to the vagus nerve that ran through the spot where he had to operate. I can't imagine why he was concerned...

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I think that would be known as a rhetorical question.

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none, since it's bunk

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Hmmm... then you say "dim mak possible? yes"... and then
"trainable and reproducable enough to warrent writing a book on it's techniques? no"

If Dim Mak works,(which you say is possible) why couldn't someone teach it's techniques? Why couldn't they write a book on its techniques?

I'm the first one to admit that the old discussions of Dim Mak are not as valid as they once were because of changes in medical knowledge, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the dishwater quite yet...

Are strikes with the side of a stick and the end of a stick exactly the same?... of course not, and neither are point strikes to kyusho points on the body. There's a lot of "angles" and "types of force application" theories that go into Dim Mak training.

Your analogy with firearms to the neck is a little over the top, because the types of wounds inflicted by the different firearms would negate any "point" strike type of application. You could probably tape a grenade to somebody's neck and do them some serious harm too, but again, that's off the charts with the discussion.

You are clearly looking at only the "immediate effect" of a strike to a hitting point, and not the long term effect of one. Your analogy would be better served with making some comparison to someone dying from a gunshot wound from a temple shot or "later" from a shot into the neck. Both of them would kill the victim, but in different ways... just like a difference between blunt force trauma and trauma to a hitting point.

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"With no training or deep investigation into Dim Mak, Ed's opinion of it is that it's "bunk", so he chooses to ignore any evidence or facts to the contrary. I just have a differing opinion about it."

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so when can we expect your book to be out then, with this 'evidence' - you realize you are the only person in the world with such evidence, yes?

The claim of Dim Mak is death or delayed death caused from a direct result of a single 'touch'...but I'd be willing to allow that claim to include very hard strikes.

since the claim involves death, then yes, proof would have to be producing a corpse. then compare it to someone with no dim mak 'training', hitting the same general area and compare results. my prediction: both subjects are knocked out long enough to run away....neither one dies either immediately or as a direct result later, however, they might find it a bit more comfortable over the next few days, reading their Dim Mak book at eye level.

differing opinions is fine. someone asks a recommendation of a book on a subject that is 95% outright fraudulent, and the remaining 5% unprovable - you betcha I tell them not to bother, it would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

Tell you what, if you write a book about Dim Mak and publish it, I'll recommend it to the author of this thread to boost your sales into the double digits, launching you into the 'bestseller' category of Dim Mak material.

by the way wrist, which books do YOU recommend for the (assuming age) 17 year old drive-by posting kid who is asking? also, care to address his understanding of 'muscle separation'...or I guess what he is describing is the concept of an 'anti- dim mak'.

btw, I would have thought a dim-makist would be more attentive to detail...harlan was making light or your unique spelling of 'Myopic Septicism'. Which, my first thought was you were accusing me of some kind of flawed plumbing.

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btw, I would have thought a dim-makist would be more attentive to detail...harlan was making light or your unique spelling of 'Myopic Septicism'. Which, my first thought was you were accusing me of some kind of flawed plumbing.

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Oh, Ed... so sorry... I don't normally miss spelling corrections. I didn't realize it would upset the applecart after reading some of the other posts here. My sincere apologies...

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harlan was making light or your unique spelling of 'Myopic Septicism'.

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of... maybe?

As for book recommendations, I wouldn't... not because I don't trust the material, but just what you mentioned... the "drive by" user that just can't wait to go try this out on some unsuspecting victim in the dojo. For karate players, the best book out there is the Bubishi which generically shows a lot of "target areas", but doesn't give them the specific angles, etc. That is best left to an instructor who can control who gets the right kind of information.

I wouldn't write a book on Dim Mak technique any more than I would hand a loaded gun to a child, so take an internet victory lap and consider this one a "tactical withdrawel". We clearly disagree, and maybe some issues are best left to the skeptical unbelievers. Why don't you write one on building nuclear bombs and issue it to the general public?



P.s. Here are the FA recommendations, books and sites gleaned from this forum:
http://fightingarts.com/estore/catalog_books_pressure_pts.shtml
http://www.russellstutely.com/
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=15832051&page=0
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15785177/an/0/page/1#15785177
http://www.learn.kyusho.com/
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1581602...5Fencoding=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0897501...ce&n=283155


Still think I need to write a book? You've got them from $19.95 to $49.95 already... pick a winner...

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I'm not saying you are stupid if you believe it and I'm not saying you aren't,but you are if you do.

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Stop hiding behind Ed... make your own arguments. You have no idea what I believe or don't. Maybe you two can get together and create a logical argument about target selection... but I doubt it.

I try never to argue with an idiot because somebody walking up on the conversation might not know who's who...

See.. I went to insult school too...

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The neck is a very tricky place to work, and there's more going on up there than most people know.

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kosh, funny. I was taught to drop them. if I had time to aim, then it's a bonus. you?

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If a strike to one general area, lets say side of the neck, has the same effect as someone who has years of training targeting an area the size of a dime...then that laser targeting acuracy training was for nought.

I aim for the side of the neck. you aim for some imaginary point on the side of the neck...

whats the difference and give proof.

If there is no proof, then maybe my time is better spent just going for the general area of the side of the neck instead of some ancient human roadmap having no basis in modern science.

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meridians? open up a cadaver and show me these pathways. accupressure is massage. accupuncture is placebo. believing in these things is not understanding ki/chi. (it's not an automatic system like blood, air or electrical flow, you have to train to make chi work). and Chinese Medicine ? you mean like the medicine stuff in the bubishi which has been proven to have NO medical basis whatsoever? is that the medicine you mean?

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Hmmm, I opened up a radio and I didn`t see any radio waves in it??
You don`t have to train to make chi work... If Chinese Medicine doesn`t have a western medical basis or something, doesn`t mean that it`s bunk...

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nerve strikes, I'll buy.

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pressure points when defined as vital targets, nerve targets, disrupting blood flow, etc to cause pain, a reaction, or in some areas unconscienceness make perfect sense and are reproducable with practice. This is what Dim-Mak guys are demonstrating when they want you to buy into the 'disrupting chi flow' explaination of what is going on.

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All interesting thoughts Victor. For some it might be better we go to the philosophy section.

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If Chinese medicine has real answers, the next time you are seriously ill will you pick it over your local doctor? If not why accept it's link to Dim Mak?

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Captain Alexander Williams, a New York City police inspector at the time, attributed "There's a sucker born every minute, but none of them ever die" to Joseph Bessimer, a notorious confidence trickster of the early 1880s known to the police as "Paper Collar Joe".

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and the most important thing to remember with the death touch is, be careful not to touch yourself on your meridians.

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and that point also falls on a meridian?

so there are two separate principles, yes? Dim Mak is the striking on a meridian, believed to be a vulnerable point on a chi pathway.

and then there is pressure point striking which is based on physical human anatomy. is that correct?

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in either of those methods, a particular area it hit hard (or pressed hard) at perhaps an approximate angle? is that also correct?

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here is what I'm getting at, the term 'Dim Mak' is a chinese term and is based upon traditional chinese medicine theory (which WT and kosh have eluded to supporting).

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I'm calling that total bunk ...but whoa wait a sec...they weren't saying their Dim mak was based on the ancient meridian system, they base their Dim Mak upon the modern nerve, artery and physical anatomy strikes.

ok, so you are deciding to use an old foreign word that was so named based entirely on the 'energy' view of how the body worked, instead of just saying 'pressure point striking'.
pressure point striking implies modern anatomy knowledge.
'Dim Mak' does not.
why mix and match the two terms?

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this leads one to believe they are basing their Dim Mak skill upon knowledge of the chinese meridian system which places target areas along these pathways.

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they weren't saying their Dim mak was based on the ancient meridian system

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I hate to burst your bubble, but the "ancient meridian system" was developed much like modern western medicine, and while the terminology and treatment might be different, the science is still pretty solid. You say it's bunk... but To quote you "I think there are about a couple of hundred million Chinese that would disagree with you" (from our thread about defining martial arts)

I pretty much knew where this would lead if the thread was kept alive long enough, and I'm glad that you can see that everything isn't bunk just because you don't have the depth of understanding to correlate it to your own thinking. That is why I asked the question about how you selected targets in karate... you have to know that "hitting some places" is more effective than "hitting others "unless the hitter is dumb as a stump. ( I have a better chance of knocking somebody out hitting the hinge of the jaw than punching their shoulder, for example.)

Dim Mak is for real, and it's got scientific backup. I do, however, think there is a language barrier... two cultures separated by a common language... (borrowed that from George Bernard Shaw)

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maybe it works because you believe it works? the real test would be if it works for 99.9% of the people. I think one of the contentions of why western science has accepted yet not practiced TCM, is because the practices are based upon metaphysical beliefs and 'proven' by pragmatic/regressive fallacy.

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further, I'm starting to see how the blending in understanding of TCM's 'meridians' and modern anatomy has been force fit and overlayed into the current Dim Mak method in order to be sold as an ancient system that works. That would be fine...if it did work consistantly and was testable, but it's not.

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have a look at a study done in 1990 by the NCAHF (National Council Against Health Fraud)

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also, eyrie, in the neijin thread, you lead me to believe that chi is nothing nonphysical, but rather is a kind of complex relationship in activity between center of gravity and body dynamics...but yet here you are basically saying chi is an independant circulatory energy via meridians which are beyond modern medical science.

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have a look at a study done in 1990 by the NCAHF (National Council Against Health Fraud)

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Ed, you were doing so well... and now, you've fallen right back into that "myopic skepticism" (spelled it right this time) again.
I read that report and the names of the "reports" it was based on. Talk about "predisposition", that set of conclusions was forgone before the report ever got past the title.

Maybe it's just me, but my doctor has recommended acupuncture for relief of several problems related to my wife's cancer, and has back-up by the American Cancer Society brochures, so I'm guessing that there's an agenda from that "non-profit organization" you are touting as the great "fraud protectors". We get any kind of drugs or treatments available through our insurance, so it's a little deceptive for the doc to be sending us for "alternative treatments" if they aren't effective, wouldn't you say?

Everybody's got an opinion, and the medical community never has agreed on anything as long as I can remember, so it makes sense that you can find "dissenting opinions" on anything medical... especially if it drives income to other places.

I also read their "report" on chiropractic, and it was pure bunk (if I may borrow a word from you). I know, from personal experience that chiropractic techniques work, because I've had many injuries treated and others "discovered" by the chiropractor that slipped past the medical doctors. You can label me the "kool aid drinker" if you want to, but the kool aid has fixed a lot of problems in the past, and is currently treating two crunched disks in my back that my medical doctor only wanted to hand me a prescription for, and send me home to go into a drug coma and ignore.

P.S. The chiropracter's x-rays prove what he's doing is working... go figure...

Maybe TCM might just possibly not have money as their motive, which really screws up the healthcare system in this country. I'd like to know who's on the board of that non profit, as well. I'm sure it's a group of hard core medical practitioners that don't believe in anything they've never experienced themselves... sound familiar???

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Are you suggesting that some places are more appropriate to strike and are a better choice than another place? Is that a distinction that should be made?

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eyrie,

I don't know, with thousands of techniqe studies in our repetiore, all of which work, it's enough to keep one busy. Of course having a surgeon in our program for a long time, I've learned not to worry about what I'm not trained to deal with, such as medical knowledge.

If the technique works, does the why, if you can really explain it, really matter?

BTW, from long experience it's enough to learn how to make do correctly.

I guess the difference is whether undersanding the underlying reason a technique works is more important than the study of the infinite ways techniques can be used effectively.

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Victor, I appreciate what you're saying and generally agree - study of ways of using technique effectively is more important that understanding why it works. I just perfer to understand why it works, because it helps me understand how to make it work more effectively. The same goes for knowing where to hit and how.

Having said that, aikido has few formal techniques, since one technique is the "same" as all techniques, so I tend not to focus too much on 100s or 1000s of "techniques", but rather on technical execution.

My reasons for studying TCM is from the healing perspective. I'm not particularly interested in knowing how to hit specific points to kill or make someone puke or wet his pants - that's the easy bit.

The hard bit is reversing the damage caused as a result of such trauma.

Having a good knowledge of physical anatomy can be handy - knowing how the twist a joint to separate tendon and muscle from bone, or how to pop a shoulder out is useful to know.

But knowing how to pop a dislocated shoulder back in, or how to restore a person's state of well-being, for me, is a far more useful thing to know.

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No the 'blood chokes' really are carotid sinus manipulation that causes the heart to stop beating, not shutting off the brain.

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In medical terminology, stimulation (compression) of the carotid sinus triggers the carotid baroreceptor reflex which causes a coronary artery spasm, which can lead to the occlusion of the distal bed of the posterolateral branch of the right coronary artery. This can present as vasospastic or variant angina and results in a sudden drop in blood pressure, followed by syncopation.

IOW, it's a neurally mediated syncope (aka neurocardiogenic, vasovagal, vasodepressor or reflex mediated syncope).

But I'm sure Roseanne already knew that...

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I see it as the other way round, I see the sweeping statements and continued use of the word "bunk" that puts those with the information being sought from giving it out? Dunno, different strokes and all that.

Dim Mak books? Ready for a bombshell... I personally don't see Dim Mak or Kyusho as anything but the subject of intellectual research and something fun to play with. Although I'm a firm believer in the theory behind it, I have yet to meet anyone who can apply it practically. I'm actually with you on fact that in combat we should train general specific targets rather than dime sized targets.

But I still thinking learning those dime sized targets and the effects is highly important. Take Spleen 10 as a great example, just above the inside of the knee. Get the angle and direction correct and you'll buckle someones knee easily with a single finger. Smash a full power knee or kick into the general area at the same angle and it'll go even better results. So books I'd recomend would be Dillmans and the DSI's. Use the points as hints for you power delivery and then practice delivering shed loads of power in at that angle. Studying Wave forms/Fajing/loose power/any other serious type of power generation methods will mean once landed you shouldn't need to do anything afterwards be it fire melts metal, metal cuts water or water gets you wet etc...

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I personally like the TCM way of thinking, if the theory works why change it? They just accept it for it is.

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I just perfer to understand why it works, because it helps me understand how to make it work more effectively.

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It's not a great leap of imagination to suppose that what the Chinese discovered as Chi was the central nervous system. their maps were just off a bit. their explaination as to the 'why' might have been off alot.

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Ed, let's go a little deeper yet... when you say "central nervous system", you're medically talking about the spine and the nerve bundles that eminate from there. There are several "nerve systems" in the body and some others that aren't so well defined and as predictable as the nerve system reactions... the lymphatic system, for instance. While everyone knows about the lymph nodes, they can be affected in numerous ways and cause horrendous problems... why, because they act as a "filtering system" in the body. Damage to the lymph system can cause infections, accumulations of lymphatic fluids (edema), and a host of other "nasties" that require some substantial doctoring to fix.

Many of the hitting points of Dim Mak were right on top of lymph system nodes which caused lymph edema, and a resulting damage to a nearby limb, organ or similar organ that becomes overtaxed because of the lymph system breakdown... i.e. the liver. Ask any woman who's had a mastectomy about lymphedema, and you'll find out that it's a gruesome disease... caused by excising and removing lymph nodes that cause an upset in the lymph system. That fluid travels just under the skin, and is like a "fluid suit" that meanders all over the body just under the skin.

While blunt force trauma can cause some pretty nasty nerve impacts, we sometimes forget that the target area might not necessarily be designed to only hit a nerve point. As Dim Mak was designed to injure or kill someone "later" strikes to the lymph system could cause problems that might not manifest themselves for weeks or months.

In dealing with my wife's lymphedema from her cancer surgery, I've learned a lot about the lymph system and how to handle it in the "injured" state, and it requires some "touch" to get it right. Too much pressure and you don't do anything except "cause a hole in the fluid, and too little pressure and you don't move the fluid, so there is a "right pressure" anywhere you're dealing with this type of massage.

Fast forward back in time to when Dim Mak was originating, and all the western medicine wasn't available to "fix" lymph problems. A "correct strike" to one of those numbered "meridians" could cause a lymphedema that would eventually cause sickness or death... at the very least, an incapacitation of the victim.

I recently played judo with a kid in the judo class, and he kept trying to sweep my foot and missed, but every time, he popped me on the ST-40 point in my leg with his ankle bone. It took about six minutes for a hematoma the size of a baseball to come up, and completely dibilatate me... the next week, I had some killer bruises from my knee to my ankles, and he wasn't hitting me hard... just consistently... and I had the damnedest hickey on my leg you've ever seen. When the doctor saw it, he said "Oh, you've got a lymphedema from some kind of leg trauma"... "have you hit your leg on a table or something?"

Needless to say, I made up my best lie, and retreated to the ice pack to get the swelling down, but it was one awful looking place that was right on top of a lymph node...(given that he reasonably didn't hit exactly the same spot each time, but close enough for government work).

Now, your assumption appears to be that since the TCM practitioners see things differently and don't describe them in exactly what you consider "scientific" terms, that their science isn't as good as western science, but I would disagree. The western medicine doctor sees the injury and defines treatment from that point. The TCM doctor approaches it from healing the entire body, not just the injured part... and realistically, I trust someone that treats edema with massage and ice packs rather than a prescription pad full of pain killers.

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The western medicine doctor sees the injury and defines treatment from that point. The TCM doctor approaches it from healing the entire body, not just the injured part...

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Ed, I hate to quote myself, but what part of that didn't come out plainly?

I'll admit that I haven't really given a lot of thought to TCM as emergency medicine, because it's usually discussed in relationship to treating diseases and "conditions", and since they are focused on "whole body treatment", I would suggest that maybe the combination might be best... western medicine to stop the bleeding and sew you up, and TCM to heal you and make you healthy again...

With the combination of medical treatments, you may be able to "eat your cake and have it too"...

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each tool for it's own job. use TCM to feel good. use modern methods to survive.

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"I hate to quote myself, but what part of that didn't come out plainly?"


btw, your quote IS different: "TCM doctor approaches it from healing the entire body, not just the injured part... "

not just the injured part?? give me ANY TCM which replaces any treatment found in an emergency room.

thats why I put it in my own words, since you didn't say the same thing which I beleive. you. on the other hand, repeated my words.

but I still luv ya, man. lol

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All qualified Shiatsu Therapists in Japan have to go through a government-regulated program which covers mostly the traditional form of Shiatsu Therapy. This traditional form, now commonly practiced in North America, was started by Tokujiro Namikoshi, from whose lineage subsequent Shiatsu therapists have been trained. Namikoshi developed his knowledge through trial and error, eventually gaining acceptance in the late 1950s. His Shiatsu is described as "Diagnosis and Therapy combined", and relies on an understanding of how the body functions according to western principles of anatomy and physiology, as opposed to the principles in Traditional Chinese Medicine or TCM, although derivative forms of Shiatsu based on TCM have been devised by later practitioners from the Japan Shiatsu College (Namikoshi had no background in TCM).

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this is very much connected to the conversation. people not liking the facts I present will try to shut the thread down by accussing its divergence....or just bail.

me, I like to the truth of things before blindly accepting them....but thats just me.

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on original topic:
I recommend this book to learn what it's all about:
http://www.ashidakim.com/dojopress/catalogbk30.html<br

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OH NO HE DIDN'T!!

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and is very telling as to your gullability

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Sorry Ed, but that's a saying I've heard since childhood, and it's just to show how stubborn some people can be... nothing to do with gullibility at all.

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research who the originator of Shiatsu is and what he did to develop this method. 'trial and error'. raw data

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Ed, I have bad news for you... a lot of western medicine was developed by trial and error as well. Read a book called "The Century of the Surgeon"... it's a historical novel that chronicles the development of "modern surgery"... and unless you think killing patients by nicotine poisoning from shoving strong cigars up their rectum as anesthesia isn't "trial and error", you've got some crow to eat...

Most medical research is trial and error, and they keep cutting down on the error rate until they have a "predictable outcome". That is how every vaccine that's ever been developed has occured. That's why lots of them have ended up being recalled... they didn't work "as advertised" or began developing "unintended consequences".

Think about all the modern medicines that have been recalled... do you want that stuff running around your system, or would you rather have someone massaging spots that cause relief for your particular problem...

Let me see... what spot do we rub to aleviate stubborn???

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I'm not looking for you to agree or disagree, just acknowledge you understand what I'm saying and at least see the logic, flawed or solid.

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but in both of our cases, hitting an area somewhere within 5 inches or within 1 inch - the bad guy goes down...so what is there to argue about.

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I don't know, but I'm sure it'll come up...

eyrie, 'oops I did it again'.

here is where you left off:

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Otherwise, we could talk about hitting nerve or "pressure" (as used in modern medicine) points and discuss the short, medium and long term effect of hitting such points or why it creates specific and predictable physiological responses.

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describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'

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Ed, the purpose of this genre of technique was to cause "later death" and was part of the assasination techniques of Dim Mak. If you read about the interaction of clans and between emissaries of the different countries in the area, Japan, China, and Okinawa, there was tremendous political intrique that went on, and "slow kill" strikes were used to disguise assassinations.

In a time where "road bandits" were common, an assasination could be disguised as an attempted robbery or "bandit attack" and carried out without divulging the identies of the political figures involved in ordering them. While there might be conjecture about who ordered it, usually the assasins were more than willing to take their own lives than to be captured and face their captors as prisoners.

Did it work??? who knows???

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one question to start it off: describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'.

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it took Doc almost not time at all to find medical inaccuracies in the descriptions.

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The physicans oath first is 'Do No Harm'.

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... yeah, right... that's why no one ever sues a doctor...

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Dim Mak study relies on western anatomy

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explains how/why it works with Chinese chi-flow theory/beliefs

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I thought the last 14 pages were getting you to the point of understanding that it's based on TCM... forget the "chi ball" crowd and focus on strategic points in the body that cause problems. Now, if it's called the "carotid sinus" in western medicine or ST-9 in TCM, what's the problem? Both systems know what kind of problems it causes and how to work around the area to effect cures.

I'm sure the "old texts" of TCM use chi descriptions in their literature, but you should read some of our own "Civil War" medical literature... or should we still call gangrene "stench infection"?

You seem unwilling to accept the fact that TCM used many of the same methods and types of cures found in western medicine. It's not like they were using incantations to drive out the evil spirits, they just described their findings and methods differently.

Many of our "western medicines" are poisons, so how do you suppose that we found out exactly how much to allow someone to ingest without harm?.. or because it was "western medicine" that they just knew how much to use... I don't think so.

About half of modern medicine's advances were made during the Holocaust, when scientists used people as guinea pigs, so please don't tout the "do no harm" aspects of modern western medicine. "Clinical trials" are still using people for guinea pigs, and the results aren't always "excellent"... there was a recent case of a perfectly healthy college student that is now in a coma from reaction to one of "western medicine's" new drugs... what part of the "chi theory" caused that?

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During the Spring/Autumn Period (770-426 b.c.) and the Warring States Period, (476-221 b.c.) the basic principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine were developed, including the theory of yin/yang imbalance as the root cause of illness, the role of the Five Elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire and Metal), modes of diagnosis (tongue and pulse) and healing (acupuncture, herbs, qigong and diet). The "three treasures" of the human body, "Qi" or vital energy, "Jing" or life essence, and "Shen" or spirit were viewed as the key to vibrant health.

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The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine, or Huang Ti Nei Jing, written sometime during the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220).

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Shen Nong is accredited with being the mythical forefather of TCM, given the status of first herbalist and god of husbandry. He taught how to raise crops, rear domestic animals and recognise herbs through taste. Huang Ti (2674 BC), or the Yellow Emperor, is accredited with being the pioneer of Chinese Medical science, along with Chi Po with whom Huang spoke, discussed and created the basis of Chinese medical knowledge. This would later become the "Huang Ti Nei Jing", or, the "Yellow Emperors Classic", a text recording this primary understanding at approximately 300BC. However from as early as 1700BC records of remedies and conditions were kept written on shells and bones, and from 400BC complete herbal formulas were kept.

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The Huang Dei Nei Jing is the oldest and most important medical book to originate from China. Its author and origin is unknown, but is thought to have been written during the Warring States period (475-221 B.C.) by numerous authors (Yanchi 1995, p2).

From this ancient classic comprised of two books; the Suwen 'Plain Questions' and the Lingshu 'Miraculous Pivot', came the basic foundations of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). It introduced the five-element theory, Yin & Yang, causes of disease, the pathology and physiology of the Zangfu organs, interaction of Blood and the channel system. All subsequent texts built upon the foundations laid down by the Huang Dei Nei Jing.

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Huang Ti Nei Jing Su Wen.

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any ideas?

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gavin, perhaps next time I have a nusance pain that doesn't disappear on it own with rest, stretching and asprin. I might even have the book read by then.

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Why don't you live a little and actually have a treatment while you're feeling OK, but you're probably too pig headed to acknowledge any beneifts any how... My point being you're continuing to ask about things that need to be experienced. It's like asking ton's of questions about MA's and having an opinion without ever actually going to a lesson... something you've trashed people over in the past. If you're really that interested in TCM, go and experience first hand. You're the TCM/MWM equavilant of a Keyboard Combantant. So, rather than recomend that you find an instructor, I recomend you find a good therapist (in more ways than one!) !

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Gavin, you mentioned extended meridians. Could you describe them? Is there any useful info on it on the net?

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