White Crane Fraud.

Posted by: Anonymous

White Crane Fraud. - 12/17/04 08:51 AM

Unmasking of a White Crane fraud:-
http://pakhok.proboards33.com/
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/18/04 03:30 PM

From his website :-

Paik Po Lien: Another misconstrued and highly distorted form that you find in some Karate circles. The Okinawan's version Paipuren is a greatly watered down and lacks the unique finishing aspect of this form
http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/19/04 04:25 AM

Just for clarity, where is the fraud?

Is it the claims made on the website?

Is it that there is some Okinawan technique that is 'crane' and not original?

What is original? Is it only Southern Chinese Crane? Is it Shaolin Crane technique? Is it Hung Gar's Crane. It it tai chi chaun's Crane? Is it Northern Chinese Crane? Or is it Okinawa's Hakutsuru quest?

I only see technique that can drop somebody regardless of source. Better or worse I leave to the hand that guides the universe to determine.

What is the source meaning of this topic?

Thanks,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/19/04 05:24 PM

The source meaning is that he lied about the “source” of his self-styled White Crane. He was taken to task in his forum and he has since deleted all the telling posts and restricts general access to his forum.

In effect, he is unable to verify anything he claimed about his background in White Crane.

The other statement is taken from his website.

As a practitioner of both Okinawan Karate and Papulien (Happoren), I find his statement objectionable.

Just thought I seek other’s feelings concerning this?

Thanks.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/19/04 08:07 PM

Thanks Highflyer,

I appreciate the clarification. I could interpret your statement a number of different ways.

Thats why I was inquiring what the issue was?

With your net name, and the link I couldn't figure out what side of the issue you were trying to express.

Victor Smith
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/20/04 06:44 PM

Hi Victor,

Just in case you have never been to his site, below are some more of his sweeping statements. I would really like to hear yours and others' views concerning this:-

White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that their exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth.

White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source. The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.

Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane forms are nothing like what we do in White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to White Crane.

The approach of the White Crane Research Institute creates powerful questions within people, questions that change minds, that open them and compel them to grow. The White Crane Research Institute presents a challenge of the deepest kind, probably viewed by the inner self as momentous.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/20/04 09:57 PM

The only karate style I know of that holds claim to having white crane kung fu as origin is Goju ryu and from what Ive heard Miyagi studied a bunch of southern chinese styles and then made whatever changes he felt were necessary. It was his teacher Higaona who studied white crane in china, and I thought it was Fujian crane, but Im not a Goju stlist my knowledge of their history may be inaccurate.

I personally doubt that there were many chinese techers who would have taught the full system to non-chinese outsiders so I think that may partially account for many of the differences.

I have never seen Hakutsuru, but no Shuri-te Karate that I have seen holds much resemblance to the Fujian White Crane I've studied. There are certain similarities but they are usually superficial (use of horizontal fist etc).
I heard that Matsumura studied Shaolin, which looking at the stances seems to make more sense for Shuri-te.

As one person on the site's forum stated, arts change with time, if there was white crane influence 1-150 years ago theres no reason to assume the resemblance would still be visible. Also if most karate lacks Fuzhou crane influence who cares? Hakutsuru may not have anything to do with Southern white crane, but it came from somewhere and it has lessons to teach. People are often too concerned with lineage and history. Karate is what karate is, here and now.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/21/04 02:36 AM

Have to go with you to a large degree but then you gotta admit that history is also important. Every major work published on foundation of most Karate points to Fuzhou and RyuRuko, an important Whooping Crane Fuzhou master.

Research missions from both Okinawa and the West arrived at roughly the same verdict. That is Fuzhou is the birthplace of many karate ryus. Even the Chinese, on the other end, assented to the conjecture.

I am curious, how did this one website came up with these statements? Where is the evidence to counter findings of the many preceding missions to seek Karate’s roots?

Or are these simply unstantiated statements intended to achieve other purpose?




[This message has been edited by highflyer (edited 12-21-2004).]
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/21/04 07:23 AM

Highflyer,

Some random thoughts on your questions.

About the White Crane web site, I suspect he’s correct his White Crane has nothing to do with Okinawan Karate, which begs the question why talk about an art he’s not doing?

The likely answer is there is no public outcry for people wanting to learn White Crane, after all when was the last time you heard about somebody running down the street shouting “I have to learn self defense, where the nearest Crane school?” <GRIN> but there are those interested in karate who have some interest in Crane so he’s marketing his site and teachings to those people. So for example has Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, but he doesn’t market his teachings by running down anyone else’s.

The White Crane dude is using the same ‘poison the wells’ rhetorical theory everyone uses to run down somebody else. He’s certainly not original in his approach, it’s just crafted to make the points he wants to make.

I don’t believe there is any way over the net to determine how much he knows, or how well he knows it, or how he came about knowing it. So without proof, it should be considered as such, just statements, and one should assume he knows something about what he studies and teaches. It’s just we can’t prove he knows it well or not.

After more than a few years of study, I believe there are actually very few in the arts who truly care about the origins of same, except to pass a test. It is very far down the personal study list from one’s current training. Almost all of the ‘history’ would not qualify as more than oral history to a trained historian. Almost all of it is unverifiable.

If your instructor told you his instructor told him such, and you believe your instructor, then you’ll choose to accept what he shared. That is historical proof, just not independent historical proof.

That becomes the slippery slope most current researchers walk upon. If you keep an open mind and a healthy dose of skeptcism not to accept any truth as totally true, you may have the healthiest attitude towards all of this.

I accept as accurate those who’ve gone to China and have seen martial traditions they can link to Okinawa’s. I also must state, while I accept their views, I don’t believe them for myself. To date, what I’ve seen does not seem to indicate significant similarity to the Okinawan arts. Which may well mean I just haven’t seen the right ‘stuff’, but I can only operate on what I’ve seen. I’ve studied some in several Chinese traditions, but the Northern ones, I have some idea how vast the Chinese answers can be and won’t assume.

I think the Okinawan arts are primarily that, and certainly have had other influences, but the origins remain Okinawa.

There are Crane traditions from Okinawa. Whether they link to Chinese ones directly, outside of the link through Go Te Ki (spelling?) or not I have no idea. If the form is performed well, and the technique applications work, who cares if they’re linked to somebody else’s White Crane tradition. Whether those traditions are truly reflected within the other Okinawan arts, I still hold as inconclusive and without evidence which likely does not exist, will remain unanswered.

Interestingly, a number of years ago the Senior Chinese Wu Shu coach was interviewed in the old T. O’Neil’s British Karate magazine. He made the point, from his knowledge, nobody who shared with any Okinawans had any national importance in the Chinese arts. Then realizing what he said, hastened to add, that individual may have been ‘good’ but just was unknown as far as the national arts were known.

With thousands of martial traditions that is a reasonable statement, assuming they did exit.

Personally the only value to looking at the past is if it helps shape your current or future training. Okinawan arts do exist. That is enough.

I also don’t worry about White Crane. In fact with the vast number of Chinese Crane traditions, I would think they should be more concerned about how their traditions stacks up with the rest. From what I’ve seen I personally like the Northern Crane traditions, very different from the Southern ones.

But then I like anything done well.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/21/04 08:38 PM

Just ran across a post by Patrick McCarthy on another list today. He listed a friend's website from Spain. The friend studied Yongchun Crane in Fujian, and Mr. McCarthy suggests this are may be a progenitor for arts like Goju and Uechi.

The web site is http://www.fujianbaihe.com/fujianbaihe/index.html
and it has lots of video clips to look at and draw your own opinions.

I will say I see similarties to some Uechi and Goju technique, but that's all I would say at this time. Whether this would be the source for Okinawan Crane forms I can't say.

So check it out yourself.

Victor Smith
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/25/04 06:23 PM

I just discovered even more interesting discussion on the possible Crane origins of the Okinawan arts.

Check out the following site: http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi

I believe everyone will make up their own mind, unless direct evidence either way is found.

There are central questions to think about.

1. If the Okinawn Crane traditions are based on the Chinese ones, should one consider what the current crane stylists have to say about the art, or should the goal be to take the current Okinawan ones and work to decimate the Chinese ones? [of course the entire issue is more complex than this]

2. Reviewing the crane forms on the site listed before, I believe they are effective in their own light, but on the whole their method of energy generation is not what the Okinawan systems use (say Goju, Ueichi, Matsubayshi, Isshinryu and so on).

3. Did the Chinese systems remain unchanged and the Okinawan ones change?
Did the Okinawn systems remain unchanged and did the Chinese ones change?
Did both sets of systems change so reconcilation is no longer possible?
Or were the Okinawan system, inspired by the existence of the Chinese ones, but not from direct transmission?

My own believe is all arts more into the space of their times. If the times are more violent, the arts will reflect that. If the times are less violent the arts will reflect what the students needs are. Once change occurs the future is the only matter, not the past, except as a guide.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
Posted by: reaperblack

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 12/26/04 07:26 PM

Greetings all, and Merry Christmas.
As I have mentioned before I do Okinawan Shorinkan, I also practice Yang style tai chi, and the five animal form of shaolin gung fu. All my other styles I no longer practice, except for how they are incorporated into the kata and techniques of the three above. The point being I picked these three because they are so similar, there is a great deal to be learned about one through doing the other. Sure the feet may be different, or the hand may be a crane beak, instead of a hook hand, instead of what we call crane hand (shorin), but they look pretty similar. When I do a crane stance in gung fu, it looks a lot like my cat stance with a toe kick in karate.
Like Sensei Smith said most people really don't care these days about their lineage. Does it really make any difference whether or not the techniques came from white crane, a version of the bubishi, or someone made them up. No matter what someone made them up. It's just a matter of who and when. Too much talk, not enough train.
Bye for now,
and have a great new year.
Roger
Oh and I almost forgot here is a link to read on the topic... http://home.drenik.net/joemilos/Bubishi/a1.
html
It's actually a pretty good article, most of the stuff that pertains to this topic is on page 2 I believe.
You may need to manually add the html to the end of this link.


[This message has been edited by reaperblack (edited 12-26-2004).]

[This message has been edited by reaperblack (edited 12-27-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: White Crane Fraud. - 01/16/05 04:09 PM

Hi Sensei

I'd like to thank you for quoteing the fujianbaihe web site. This is a web site put together by my friend Martin Watts, who studies in China, and the fujianbaihe web site has been put in place to dicuss the origins of the crane. I am Graham Moughton, and have been studying Budo since 1972. I have slowly found my path leading me towards Okinawan White Crane. I agree with you regarding Okinawan White Crane, is proberly influenced from Southern China, and at present my jouney has led me to Uechi ryu, and Matayoshi Kobudo, and the kata's know as Hakutsuru. The Hakutsuru kata are as brought to Okinawa by Gokenke.

Martin Watts was invited to Sensei Pat Mcarthy's last seminar in Europe, and had a very interesting time.

I think that it's important from a historians point of view rather than from a practising point of view, and I am very pleased to see these discussion's.

Martin has linked to our site www.nikawakai.co.uk from fujianbaihe site, and has put up some videos of my performances of One Hakutsuru, Daiinisasan, and Gankaku, this was last year, since then I have had postings from around the world from other people who find the subject of White Crane of intrest, some are in countries where there is very little instruction available, and they have found both Martins video links and mine of help. Once again its about the training thats important. People who wish to learn are the important factor in martial arts.

I have recived other white crane videos from these people and found one of interest Its a version of Hakutsuru, it is performed by Kusano and I think it's called Paiho. It is very much a karate kata but has a visual asthetic of a the Gokenke Hakutsuru combinded with some movements from Unsu, and Gojushio.I love the varity within martial arts, as it offers us somthing new even though from the old.

Thanks again for discussing this subject I look forward to further postings and replies.

Regards


Graham Moughton