Naihanchin/Tekki Bunkai - Salutation

Do you know that from real experience frank? I've blocked knees like that, and despite orthodox advice, and have had no problems. Maybe I have strong bones. Either way, my arms are well conditioned.

The only knee I wouldn't block like that is the circular one to the ribs, where the body is flung out first. It's simply too difficult and too powerful.

X block to a punch? Yeah, I don't think so. It ain't gonna happen. Never.

I'd rather shift irimi and scoop up a front kick, but jamming them works. You are not blocking a knee, but stopping the kick before it accelerates.

So once you've jammed it (either way), why can't you lock it out?

What do you think it is?

Out of interest, there are some clips of White Crane applications you can download from John Sells, samples from his tapes on Hakatsuru and Wanduan
http://www.martialsource.com/wms/wc1-1.asf
http://www.martialsource.com/wms/wc2-2.asf

Interestingly, Sho, there is a quite a bit of striking.

Sadly Mark I can't view these right now, the computer I'm on is an old and busted apple mac that only lets me view mpegs, and despite having nothing on the machine it keeps saying it's short of memory sp I cany download media player for the mac!

I hate macs!

But anyway... I've been training in Fujian white crane for the past three years, and the core style is mainly striking. There is grappling but it is based around the application of chi-sau practice its main purpose is to open for strikes. It is very damn handy in clinch range. I remember practicing with a friend, BJJ/wrestler with some karte on the side, in over an hour of sparring he got me down only 3 times, and two of those were because I let him (wasn't trying so hard) in order to learn some floor work from him.
The core tiger/crane system (White crane is actualy crane with elements of tiger kungfu) also includes ground fighting, and the head of the style has mixed in some shoalin dog kungfu to improve this side of things, but even the ground work is based on the principles of stand up fighting.

Interestingly there was a guy on these forums not so long ago who said he was a teacher from some Australian White crane group who said that Hakutsuru has nothing to do with Fujian White crane. I think he said it was a purely okinawn kata or that it was a crane form that originated in another style of kungfu. I couldnt say myself as I've never seen the form, and I've never seen half the white crane forms either as we learn a form and study it for quite a while before learning the next.

[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 12-14-2004).]

Mark ,
I have something else you might like to try.
Imagine you are face to face with an opponant. As you face each other he reaches out with his left hand grabbing your left bicep to measure you for a punch with his right hand. From there your hands move up to the higher position of the X block, in doing so your wrists are now crossed on top of his left elbow. It is essential that you dont just use your arms but you must drop your body weight into the X block as you drop into the front stance. When done in that manner you see the value of training low stances.
In doing this it drops your opponant downward unbalancing him. Next you wrap up for the augmented block using it as a strike. Then open the your fisted right hand grabbing your opponants hair. His head should now be at the approximate level of your hip directly in front of your left knee. Use what appears to be the set position for the side kick as a knee to the head.

oldman

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 12-14-2004).]

I see. You can use the inner/back stance to unbalance the opponent, the uchi uke is a strike which moves into a cross body trip, then you bring the hand over the top of their head and manipulate them down, and knee them, kick them if they stay up.

Yeah?

[QUOTE]
X block to a punch? Yeah, I don't think so. It ain't gonna happen. Never.
[/QUOTE]

I'd disagree with you there Mark. One of the biggest reasons people view Karate basics as slow or impractice is that folks dont stop and consider what type of attack you are meant to be blocking. Everybody assumes they are being attaked with the same control and composure with which they train or that all out aggression from the attacker will take the form of continuous combo's a la boxing!

In Karate, esp Shotokan, all basics are practiced against the Oizuki lunge punch. Now alot of realists say that no one will ever punch you like that so its impracticle training. The point of the oizuki from the defenders perspective is to simulate a heavy "lunging" attack. That drunk who throws all his strength and weight into a wild haymaker. In these instances a big two hands crossing rising block is the only thing thats going to absorb the full force of the attack, and if done correctly interrupt his movement sufficiently that he wont know whats happened until after he's been hit. The high x-block is the same, use it against a power strike where the opponent is unbalanced because of over comitment and cant follow up with a lightening cross while your hands are busy. Go straight to Heian Godan: X-Block, Pull n' lock, counter strike with a chop, then smash through him with an oi/gyaku zuki!

Also of note is the fact that the high x-block is never peformed (that I can think of ) without some kind of clearing technique to pull the opponent off-balance the instant contact is made. Always consider what you are defending as wll as surrounding techniques. Practical thinking is only practicle if it includes the opponent.

I've always considered the use of the lunging strike to work techniques a valuable tool. Many times (when beset by larger opponents or depending on the area of the world) attacks don't begin with slugging, instead they begin with a grab.

On the whole I see working a lunge punch as a faster target for practice of techniques that are really greared for real world grabs. As the punching hand is normally faster than the grab, you're working a technique at higher speed.

Then basic application study (a necessary training) is the prelude to larger issues. For example shifting and moving to create an oppening for the attacker to enter, setting up a more classic counterattack. In that sense blocks are just that deflection blocks, to move an attacker into counter-attack position.

The problem isn't studying basic applications, its more that most don't go beyond those levels.

Another aspect of the unrealisic bunkai, is they really may be skill building drills. The purpose not to use them as practiced, but to learn how to shift your body into a specific space to use an unrealistic counter. Those shifting skills to eventually be shaped to more effective answers. So such applications are building blocks, short change yourslelf and not use them because they're unpractical, and you may be shortchanging your training too.

There are no simple answers, just more and more study.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

It will not work versus a punch. The mchanics are all wrong.

However, in Hapkido, there are knife disarms where the one arms seizes the lower arm, the other the attackers shoulder. It isn't exactly the same, but more or less, it is an X block with the arms apart.

The next thing to do is the correct mechanics for stepping foward into a lower block.

"Another aspect of the unrealisic bunkai, is they really may be skill building drills."

I agree. Sometimes you have little option but to make a hasty or weak counter, and also some flow drills contrain escapes from properly and poorly applied locks or holds.

All bunkai should be trained with the view that the uke should try to counter or escape, depsite the intentions of the bunkai artist.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
It will not work versus a punch. The mchanics are all wrong.
[/QUOTE]

Why? I've managed to employ the combination from Heian Godan in sparring against a balanced opponent so what exactly is wrong with the technique?

[QUOTE]
The next thing to do is the correct mechanics for stepping foward into a lower block.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean?

[QUOTE]
I agree. Sometimes you have little option but to make a hasty or weak counter, and also some flow drills contrain escapes from properly and poorly applied locks or holds.
[/QUOTE]

Why would you practice defences specifically against poorly applied locks?

Shonuff; "quote:Originally posted by Mark Hill:
It will not work versus a punch. The mchanics are all wrong.

Why? I've managed to employ the combination from Heian Godan in sparring against a balanced opponent so what exactly is wrong with the technique?"

You leave yourslef open for more punches. A punch is much quicker. How often have you done this? What type of strike did they use? This is one technique which isn't for me.

"Shonuff; quote:
The next thing to do is the correct mechanics for stepping foward into a lower block.

What do you mean?

Try the weapon disarm. (Seize the shoulder and just above the elbow) Move as you were moving into a lower block. They get taken down.

"Shonuff; quote:
I agree. Sometimes you have little option but to make a hasty or weak counter, and also some flow drills contrain escapes from properly and poorly applied locks or holds.

Why would you practice defences specifically against poorly applied locks? "

Because a properly applied lock without an escape or left too late to escape from is near impossible to get out of. Whereas, from what you know from grappling, locks are sloppily applied, paticularly if an escape is tried. The salutation in Passai can be an escape from such a lock.

I CAN see this working. (Heian Godan). Move in further and jam a little (so block further up the arm - after all, you move foward for this). The torite (reverseing hands) is an armbar, the tension block is a PP strike along the arm, a wrist/elbow lock or heart one PP strike, or grabbing their head, dependent on how they were locked out. The punch can be to the concavity of the skull, armbar etc....

[QUOTE]
You leave yourself open for more punches. A punch is much quicker. How often have you done this? What type of strike did they use? This is one technique which isn't for me.
[/QUOTE]

I've usually used this in sparring against straight punches or some type of swing. If there is not enough weight in the attack then I adjust by stepping slightly to the opponents blind side as I pull. When we practice using it in 1-step, the attacker throws the pre-set attack and then continues as though he were free fighting to make sure the defence works against a resisting opponent.

This is not a technique you would use against a jab or any low-comitment technique that may be part of a combination. As I stated above the point of a technique like this (at the basic level) is to defend against an attack that has alot of momentum and weight. A heavily commited strike is more difficult to recover from (for the one making the strike) because the bodies weight has to be recovered. Even if the attacker is sufficiently balanced to throw a second strike (as was the case when sparring) grabbing the forearm/wrist then twisting and pulling the arm to the hip will break the opponents equilibrium. When I've applied it in sparring there has on occasion been a second punch on the way, but once they have been yanked off-balance that punch is no longer a threat. From there, depending on how effective the pull was you can do pretty much what they want. Give it a try, get your partner to lunge or swing at you as hard as he can and apply the upper x-block and then hip-side trap as fluidly as u can.

Your application seems sound though I don't study pressure points, another application is as an attack. Following the jamming of a kick with the low x-block, if the opponent fails to throw an attack raised the crossed hands into the collar of the opponents gi and twist into a choke.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
I've usually used this in sparring against straight punches or some type of swing. If there is not enough weight in the attack then I adjust by stepping slightly to the opponents blind side as I pull. When we practice using it in 1-step, the attacker throws the pre-set attack and then continues as though he were free fighting to make sure the defence works against a resisting opponent.

This is not a technique you would use against a jab or any low-comitment technique that may be part of a combination. As I stated above the point of a technique like this (at the basic level) is to defend against an attack that has alot of momentum and weight. A heavily commited strike is more difficult to recover from (for the one making the strike) because the bodies weight has to be recovered. Even if the attacker is sufficiently balanced to throw a second strike (as was the case when sparring) grabbing the forearm/wrist then twisting and pulling the arm to the hip will break the opponents equilibrium. When I've applied it in sparring there has on occasion been a second punch on the way, but once they have been yanked off-balance that punch is no longer a threat. From there, depending on how effective the pull was you can do pretty much what they want. Give it a try, get your partner to lunge or swing at you as hard as he can and apply the upper x-block and then hip-side trap as fluidly as u can.

Your application seems sound though I don't study pressure points, another application is as an attack. Following the jamming of a kick with the low x-block, if the opponent fails to throw an attack raised the crossed hands into the collar of the opponents gi and twist into a choke.[/QUOTE]

This is dojo fighting.

People dont do these techniques in the street
and if you try to x block a kick you'll have broken ulner bones.

And if by some miracle you didnt you would never get your hands up in time to block his punch

Get real!!!

Dojo fighting is for children

MF

[QUOTE]Originally posted by madfrank:
This is dojo fighting.

People dont do these techniques in the street
and if you try to x block a kick you'll have broken ulner bones.

And if by some miracle you didnt you would never get your hands up in time to block his punch

Get real!!!

Dojo fighting is for children

MF

[/QUOTE]

Most people who fight in the streets arent trained martial artists and those who are often limit what they do because of a superficial understanding of technique and an unwillingness to expand that understanding by training.

The section you quoted was refering to use of an x-block against a face punch, evidence perhaps that you dont read before you comment??

Like I said go and practice it then tell me it doesnt work. And here's a hint if you get stuck, try using it aganst kicks begun out of punching range.

Dojo fighting is for children so I'm gonna be childish... street fighting is for testosterone heavy retards with inferiority complexes.

Good training [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Hi Guys,

Just saw this thread and figured I would input in. Good stuff so far.

Naihanchi Shodan

Opening move only:

Double lapel grab - Bring arms over the assailants arms and use your elbows on the radial nerve to make them bend and come to you. Then wrap your hands around the assailants neck with your thumbs underneath the jaw. Squeeze your thumbs in, up, and then force the head down. Variation could be putting the thumbs in the eyes.

While you are in the mount position - The hand position can be considered a cross collar choke seen in judo.

Pre-emptive strike - using the shape of your hands to strike the trachea and groin or inch below the navel. (followed up with the naihanchi slap of course).

Someone pushes - and they break through your guard and land on your chest... trap one hand and pivot away placing a torque on their wrist. Best case scenerio they buckle in pain. Worst case scenerio they are off balance and open for the naihanchi slap.

Haymaker or straight punch - the hands can guard the face and use a pivoting motion to redirect the attack which can allow you to trap the hand and get you into position to do a naihanchi slap. Either side works be it inside or outside of the attacking arm.

Arm grap - Trap his attacking hand with your free hand. Rotate your trapped hand around his arm thereby trapping his arm with both your hands. Then pivot towards his elbow. Nasty tuite.

You're in the guard - Trap his hand, throw your leg (one next to the trapped hand) and throw it over his head, Arm bar.

Single lapel grab - similar to the punch/haymaker tech just a little variation. One traps and the other secures. Pivot to 45 degrees to his outside and torque the wrist down and towards your opponent.


Just a few to get you started. Of course what I have described are the bunkai in their most basic form. Kyusho jutsu, Atemi Jutsu, and in some cases kia jutsu are needed to truely make these work in a realistic environment.

Shonuff-- from my school of thought kata is all about efficient practical combative movement. Everytime you do something in the kata is for a reason. Bowing and salutations especially.

My best,

Raul
Shodan
Zenkoku Ryukyu Kempo Karatedo Renmei
Association Founder - Kyoshi Albert Geraldi (Hachidan)

Thankyou Raul...

And soon the rest will come.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:

Shonuff-- from my school of thought kata is all about efficient practical combative movement. Everytime you do something in the kata is for a reason. Bowing and salutations especially.

[/QUOTE]

I agree that kata are about practicle fighting movement I just feel you have to draw the line somewhere, especially when most salutation bunkais ignore the fact that you have a whole kata following it. Just my personal view, I think I'm in the minoroty.

If I were to bunkai the opening of this particular kata I would use the shotokan intro where the hands ae moved in front of the groin from the yoi position.

1. standing in a neutral (ready) posture at a 45d angle relative to an opponent, right side forward. According to Choki Motobu the techniques of this kata are for interpretaton from this position.

2. the opponent a)reaches in to grab with his lead left hand, or b) steps in with a lead left punch to the body.

3. move the arms into the salutation position, using the movement to deflect the attack off the lead right arm across the body.

4. step forward as in the kata (crossing step) slipping past the opponent to his blind side. The knee raise strikes into the back/side of the opponents left thigh, and lands in horse-riding stance behind the opponent.

5. As you land sweep the oopening block under the opponents attacking arm and sweep him over your right leg to unbalance him.

6. finnish with an elbow to the ribs.

I've not tested this, its just off the top of my head, what do u guys think.. and does anyone have any bunkai beyond the salutation, not that you'd need anything more than the all-encompassing salutation of a kata [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

In Matsubayashi we do not have elaborate kata salutations. A bow is for respect nothing more. The hands are simply brought from the sides into position, not up and down or in and out or around and about. There is really one purpose for our salutations. In all of them (except for the Pinans) the left hand covers the right. This teaches the concept of sacrificing the weak side to attack with the strong. Most people are right handed and this is their strong hand where their strongest techniques will come from. By dealing with an attack with the left side you are acknowledging that the part of the body that receives and attack may be damaged and unable to deliver a viable attack. If you use your weakest side to receive an attack you can counter attack with your best attack. This is not to say that this is what should always be done, but only a concept to be considered.

Salutations: Sensei Pat Mc Carthy knows 16 for Passai alone.

My take: study them, don't forget the rest of the kata.

Also: many Goju/Shito kata final moves flow into the terminal salutation.

Sho: Tommorrow I will open up a thread on the kata itself, if someone else doesn't.

Mark,

Patsai having 16 saluations is because there are at least 16 different Patsai on Okinawa.

Personally with so much karate technique I've never paid much attention to the openings. They have uses, but rarely where I focus.

In fact the Chinese arts have made the opening a true quest. For example Northern Eagle Claw has a public opening (done with publid performance of their kata) that is so dynamic I shudder to see it performed. And they're not alone in that, many times an opening is as complex as a karate kata.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
Salutations: Sensei Pat Mc Carthy knows 16 for Passai alone.

My take: study them, don't forget the rest of the kata.

Also: many Goju/Shito kata final moves flow into the terminal salutation.

Sho: Tommorrow I will open up a thread on the kata itself, if someone else doesn't.[/QUOTE]

Its not that I feel applications can be invented for salutations, you can invent combat applications for any movement, martial or otherwise, and thats kinda my point. In any study limits must be set on the data gathered for examination otherwise it would go on forever. We could take apart any single kata and considering permutations, fractals of the movements and allowing for deviation in form, angle and situation we could study it forever. If that was ever what kata creators had in mind why would any of them have taught more than one form? As I stated I consider the study of a kata or group of kata, to be the study of a consistant method of fighting, and in doing this I've been able to learn new methods as opposed to overlaying techniques and principles that I already know onto movements. Salutations generally don't fit for me.

One of the other main reasons I ignore salutations is that most of the applications I see for them are attempts to fit the movement to a jujutsu technique, where both a striking option (that occurs somewhere else in the kata) or the actual jujutsu version of the "discovered" technique. Simply put I see too many flaws and too little necessity or connection with the rest of the form when looking at salutations.

Although like I said I believe i am in the minority.


[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 12-19-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
Most people who fight in the streets arent trained martial artists and those who are often limit what they do because of a superficial understanding of technique and an unwillingness to expand that understanding by training.

The section you quoted was refering to use of an x-block against a face punch, evidence perhaps that you dont read before you comment??

Like I said go and practice it then tell me it doesnt work. And here's a hint if you get stuck, try using it aganst kicks begun out of punching range.

Dojo fighting is for children so I'm gonna be childish... street fighting is for testosterone heavy retards with inferiority complexes.
#

Retards misunderstand posts.

I'm not advocating beeing a street fighter i teach people to defend against them.

Re read what i posted using a dictionary as an aid this time.

Then ask ask others who actually had to use MA's if im right or you are

MF

Good training [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

What is wrong with Tuite and grappling within kata? The Okinawans had Ti, and Kenpo is what Chin Gimpei taught to the Japanese upper classes who refashioned it as Jujutsu.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
What is wrong with Tuite and grappling within kata? The Okinawans had Ti, and Kenpo is what Chin Gimpei taught to the Japanese upper classes who refashioned it as Jujutsu.[/QUOTE]

There's nothing wrong with grappling in karate, but in my opinion it is not what Karate is all about, it is supplementary.

All evidence, from the way the kata are constructed, the writings and demonstartions of old masters, self defence theory, the chinese arts that are said to have influenced Karate, it all points to a striking based system. The grappling heavy interpretations of Karate ae a fad brought about by the Gracies whooping ass at the UFC. Everybody everywhere went grappling crazy.

Manipulation and control of an opponent is always important, and the more advanced one becomes the more control one will learn to exert, just as jujutsu incorporates striking Karate incorporates grappling, but Karate is not Jujutsu and Jujutsu is not karate, one emphasises striking one emphasises grappling.

When I see grappling apps that don't involve mutilating the kata movements and take into consideration previous and subsequent movements, or even better they fit into a pattern that occurs throughout the kata, then I am happy to include them into my understanding of the form. I also believe that basic grappling skills, as well as basic boxing skills, basic ground work and movement skills should be a prerequisite to training in order that the student learns to understand how his art progresses from these things. There are many stories of martial arts masters who would only teach someone once they had a base knowledge of fighting and fitness. Also Karate originated in a place where wrestling was a regular passtime of the youth, so Okinawans who took up karate likely already had a knowledge of how to act when someone tackled them.
With this kind of knowledge as a pre-existing base there would be no need to include it in the fighting art of the Okinawans.
Theres also a school of thought that says Shuri-te was developed by Matsumura specifically as a bodyguards art to destroy opponents in a couple of seconds (allowing for deaing with multiple assailants), so restriaints and ground work etc were removed. (Im sure MV will have something to say on that one).

I dont know about a Chen Gimpei, but I do remember reading that while previously thougt to have chinese origins, Jujutsu is actually indigenous to Japan, born out of centuries of almost non-stop warfare among the Samurai Lords of the feudal era. I could be mis-informed, but the japanese arts certainly have their own flavour, and when the knew alien system of Karate was introduced, the Jujutsuka and Judoka didnt shrug it off as just another style of their own arts, instead they were suitably impressed by it.

I've met very few Karateka, especially Shotokan Karateka who know how to use striking in close quarters, Ive not even met many who understand the strategies of employing basic techniques outside of tournament fighting. Instead they are very quick to dismiss striking Karate as a "childrens art" or some other nonsense and decide that true karate is all about chokes and breaks.

Ultimately I think so long as it works and is practiced regularly thats fine, Im no more likely to be right than anyone else, but for me if I want to learn to lock choke and break I will go to a Jujutsu school.. theyve been doing it much longer and are not restricted by what they feel they can and cant superimpose onto a kata.

As my old Karate teacher used to say "stop fiddling with his hands and hit him!"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by madfrank:

Retards misunderstand posts.
[/QUOTE]

Said the guy who quoted a discussion about a different block to the one he was talking about...

[QUOTE]
I'm not advocating beeing a street fighter i teach people to defend against them.

Re read what i posted using a dictionary as an aid this time.
[/QUOTE]

I was actually thiking of some of your other posts on this forum as well as the last one (like the challenge you posted in the Shotokan thread), but while were here.. You don't advocate street fighting, but dojo fighting is for children? So where do you practice, in a barn? Does the presence of farm animals make your technique more real?

[QUOTE]
Then ask ask others who actually had to use MA's if im right or you are
[/QUOTE]

And I thought I was being childish. Your street fighter buddies will back you up huh? Tell me, if non of them train to apply this technique and non of them have attempted to apply it what would asking them prove?

Here's a radical idea, instead of just waltzing in and expecting everybody to bow to your genius and superior knowledge, why not try discussing the issue. You pointed out (quite condescendingly) that the low x-block wouldnt work. Two people then explained to you why your complaint about it was mis-informed.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Shonuff
...it can be applied without sustaining injury to the self as one is supposed to jam the kick before any real power has been generated by the leg, i.e. at the chamber. This early interruption is key to disrupting the opponents rhythm to allow an easy entry/counter attack.
[/QUOTE]

Try answering the reply, or even asking questions, its a better way of getting people to listen to you, and u may even learn something new.

P.S.
If you perform the low x-block moving into the opponent you should unbalance him enough to delay his counter punch. Whether you do or not you can aid getting the hands up in time by moving the moment you stop the leg (the opponent has to radjust his weight to throw the punch) and by shifting backwards you create enough space to get your block up in time. You know the punch is likely coming so you adapt.

Further "discussion" of technique would be most welcome.

Good Training [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

One reason people may completely change the flow of the kata to get tuite out if is is because of the changes that many people made to the kata who did not understand it to begin with. Okinawans changed their art after fully understanding it, the Japanese, Americans, etc. changed it before even reaching a truly advanced level. The further your form diverges from the original "intent" of the kata through either obvious or minute changes the less you will be able to apply them for real. If you feel that you have to drastically change your art to suit your purposes you may be in the wrong art. Japanese and Okinawan karate are as different as night and day. I'm not saying one is better than the other, however, for my purposes I'll stick with okinawan karate. The tuite is not forced, it flows. It is not jujitsu, but a uniquely okinawan form of "grappling" that relies heavily on sweeps, unbalancing, borrowing balance, distracting, "quick throws", breaking an opponents structure, and trapping limbs using the whole body to pin the limb and break the structure where you are still in a position to strike and/or take your opponent down. It also contains a lot more, but I have to get back to work.

But this is why I like karate, when studied in depth, it becomes a multi functional art.

Example: when tying someone up with a wristlock, the motion of a punch creates an extension of the lock, and sets them up for a punch to the top vertabrae (devestating) and a joint dislocation at the shoulder. (From Tekki Sandan, and very esay to execute). There are more which are either more heavily strike or lock involved.

In other words, I think the idea is to flow locking and striking together. With good tai and ashi sabaki, it can become near impossible to counter or escape once the first lock or strike is effective.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
But this is why I like karate, when studied in depth, it becomes a multi functional art.
[/QUOTE]

I think one can focus on any aspect of a style.. concentrate on the kicks and your karate becomes Taekwondo, concentrate n the locks and you have a Jujutsu style, but any set of movements can be studied in depth to become something else.

[QUOTE]
Example: when tying someone up with a wristlock, the motion of a punch creates an extension of the lock, and sets them up for a punch to the top vertabrae (devestating) and a joint dislocation at the shoulder. (From Tekki Sandan, and very esay to execute). There are more which are either more heavily strike or lock involved.

In other words, I think the idea is to flow locking and striking together. With good tai and ashi sabaki, it can become near impossible to counter or escape once the first lock or strike is effective.
[/QUOTE]

I actually agree with your interpretation of the fighting style as a whole, but I feel when looking at a kata it shouldnt require too much twisting of movements to get an application, and then the kata for me must have a strategy. Your ankle lock in Hiean yondan sounded good, but I (not having had time to try it out) find it hard to see how you would apply it without being punched in the face. Assuming you can, then for me, the rest of the kata (and possibly the series) should then be following the principle of block and lock, which brings us back to Jujutsu. Also joint locking tends to follow the same principle, advanced techniques are just modifications of the basics. There is no need to incorporate 5 different locks holds and chokes in each movement of the form because once you have the basics you have everything you need. Thats why we are even able to find these techniques, we already know them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by medulanet:
The further your form diverges from the original "intent" of the kata through either obvious or minute changes the less you will be able to apply them for real. [/QUOTE]

Medula, I agree with your post but for this one statement. many people assume changes were made without regard to meaning, but I think that is a rare thing and more often than not intent is not obscured, or is decipherable with a little thought and more importantly practice. Most people cant see how techniques work because they do them in their head or they try them out without any variation.

Also I am still in doubt that there is any "original intent" in Karate kata. As Victor has pointed out a master would often teach different forms to different students, and I am in doubt as to whether the chinese originators were completely open when teaching. By all accounts Karate is the art of the individual, each changing it to suit his own needs. It's for this reason I ignore MV and though I Mark and Victor's approaches I feel they are as valid as my own or anyone's.

You can get upset at what I say if you like
I'm actually trying to help.


I spent years doing 'Traditional' karate with its traditional applications.

They dont work in my experience and no offence but i dont believe anyone who says they work for them in the street.

x block. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Why would you tie 2 hands up do you think he will wait to punch you with the other as in the dojo

do you even think punches come in a straight line like in the dojo in the street.

Try not to get wound up at what ive said this time.

I'm just guessing by how you all talk and interpret kata you've never had street fights or learned the deeper applications of kata.
that is not a dig.

I have.

but whilst you argue and denie what i say you are not learning.

Learn from the school of hard knocks there is no point drilling techniques that will never work.

It is a diservice to yourself.


Happy and safe christmas.

MF

[QUOTE]Originally posted by madfrank:
You can get upset at what I say if you like
I'm actually trying to help.


I spent years doing 'Traditional' karate with its traditional applications.

They dont work in my experience and no offence but i dont believe anyone who says they work for them in the street.

x block. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Why would you tie 2 hands up do you think he will wait to punch you with the other as in the dojo

do you even think punches come in a straight line like in the dojo in the street.

Try not to get wound up at what ive said this time.

I'm just guessing by how you all talk and interpret kata you've never had street fights or learned the deeper applications of kata.
that is not a dig.

I have.

but whilst you argue and denie what i say you are not learning.

Learn from the school of hard knocks there is no point drilling techniques that will never work.

It is a diservice to yourself.


Happy and safe christmas.

MF

[/QUOTE]

Are you Multiversed under another name or something???

Im a police officer in London Frank, I have been in plenty of fights. I dont usually bring this up because its not relevant when discussing technique.

There is no point trying to discuss this any further because you obviously are not here to discuss anything.

The only thing that annoys me about your posts is that there is no attempt to discuss whatever is on issue, you just shout "it won't work" "get real". It's evident you dont even properly read posts otherwise you would know i) I wouldnt employ this technique myself, ii) everything you've sighted as wrong with this technique have been addressed. Then all you can do is resort to the "well you obviously dont know what your talking about" defence.

If you know so much about the secrets of kata why don't you share them? If you know so much how come you dont know that you adjust a blocking action to deal with the type of attack comming. If you are so confident you are right why dont you re-read the posts about the block and go try it with some of your buddies? (And I dont mean just once as I doubt you'll get it first time).

This is the Kata applications forum, the discussion has expanded beyond the topic titles, I for one would be happy to hear and discuss the "secrets of kata" that you have aparently learned... although I'd be willing to bet all you can do is rehash Ian Abernathy's half assed applications (or something similar).

And by the way, the I'm-an-all-wise-karateka-beyond your-level-here-to-help-you bulls@#t already has a much more credible exponent on this site. As I told MV (and he failed to reply as I expect you might) no one gives a damn if all your going to do is say "it wont work" "get real" and not offer anything better or deal with the surrounding issues that have been put forward. No one will take your word for it otherwise.

As I stated before if you wish to DISCUSS the subject at hand I would love to hear your opinions and reasoning.

Frank,

What is your application/s of the x block (low, high) and the salutation in Passai?

Err, I mean Naihanchin, but you can talk about Passai if you want [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
Frank,

What is your application/s of the x block (low, high) and the salutation in Passai?[/QUOTE]

There are many possible applications.

For the upper x response(uke) With the hands in knife hand a double strike to the carotid arteries.

The lower x response.(uke) could have been a double strike to set this up by punching the stomache obliques to force his chin forward opening up the neck.

The upper x response could also be a grab release putting the non grabbed hand under the other and lifting whuilst twisting putting the grabber in a lot of pain.

There are many and far more advanced applications for the x response.

I could go through all the so called blocks and give many applications.

If you just realise uke as in age uke means in this context response and not block.

If it did what does berai mean in gedan berai they both mean block we a re told.

Berai means sweep, by the way.

Happy Xmas

Mad frank

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
Are you Multiversed under another name or something???

Im a police officer in London Frank, I have been in plenty of fights. I dont usually bring this up because its not relevant when discussing technique.

There is no point trying to discuss this any further because you obviously are not here to discuss anything.

The only thing that annoys me about your posts is that there is no attempt to discuss whatever is on issue, you just shout "it won't work" "get real". It's evident you dont even properly read posts otherwise you would know i) I wouldnt employ this technique myself, ii) everything you've sighted as wrong with this technique have been addressed. Then all you can do is resort to the "well you obviously dont know what your talking about" defence.

If you know so much about the secrets of kata why don't you share them? If you know so much how come you dont know that you adjust a blocking action to deal with the type of attack comming. If you are so confident you are right why dont you re-read the posts about the block and go try it with some of your buddies? (And I dont mean just once as I doubt you'll get it first time).

This is the Kata applications forum, the discussion has expanded beyond the topic titles, I for one would be happy to hear and discuss the "secrets of kata" that you have aparently learned... although I'd be willing to bet all you can do is rehash Ian Abernathy's half assed applications (or something similar).

And by the way, the I'm-an-all-wise-karateka-beyond your-level-here-to-help-you bulls@#t already has a much more credible exponent on this site. As I told MV (and he failed to reply as I expect you might) no one gives a damn if all your going to do is say "it wont work" "get real" and not offer anything better or deal with the surrounding issues that have been put forward. No one will take your word for it otherwise.

As I stated before if you wish to DISCUSS the subject at hand I would love to hear your opinions and reasoning.

[/QUOTE]

when the chela is ready the guru appears.

MF

I agree with MF. In Japanese karate a low block is gedan barai uke, in okinawan karate it is gedan uke. There are no big "sweeping" movements in okinawan karate like in japanese karate. This term which defines the way the technique is performed is not in line with the principles of okinawan karate which is to attack. In okinawan karate we attack with blocks. The result may be that the opponents' attack was blocked/deflected/trapped, but the intent is to attack. If your block is sweeping then it is hard to attack and really get into the body of your opponent to continue the attack. You also leave your centerline open with such sweeping attacks/blocks. Your power is going from side to side rather than straight which compromises not only your technique, but your fighting position also. Really if you think about karate it flows. My intent is to knock my opponent out with my initial attacks. If my opponent attacks hopefully my attack with have proper technique so that my attack will still connect and take my opponent out. Only if this fails does the technique flow into other things such as deflections, locks, throws, etc. But the key is always attack. Everything that you do is to attack. Even a step back. A step back should only be done to draw an opponent in so that you can immediately attack your opponent.

The 'low block' as I incorporate it is a counter for strikes, with several options.

One option uses the chamber alongside the head to actually strike into the striking arm from below. The sharper you chamber before the 'low block' the greater response you get from the attacker.

Then the 'low block' is actually a single knuckle strike into the opponents abdomen on the side.

Course it's not much of a block, but thats one of the options I teach in Isshinryu.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

In Matsubayashi the "chamber" that you describe is what we call the block before the block. Similar types of movements are performed before all blocking techniques. This is actually one of the main techniques used for parrying, deflecting, blocking, trapping, locking, etc. Then what can be considered the finish to the block is actually what strikes, whoever, it can block, deflect, etc. another strike and strike an opponent simultaneously, or lead into other techniques. Actually the low block is best used in conjuction with tai sabaki to shift out of the way of an attack and strike to the body to damage/distract to open up the head and/or set up a takedown to eventually finish off an opponent. A second application can be a way to sweep/throw/unbalance your opponent.

Yeah label disease is a b@#ch.. and then you get over it.

In defence of sweeping blocks I must say they are incredibly useful in emergencies and when dealing with heavy attacks.

The sweeping block is the most basic form of application they work on a very sound scientific principle. Forces at right angles do not affect one another. If I want to redirect a heavy powerful attack (and by redirect i mean turn aside and create an opening) there is nothing better. I'm safe the opponent is wide open I can now hit him as hard as I can and use that one opening to end the fight. It is a self defence technique not a dueling one. Its purpose is only to deal with powerful weighty attacks. The type where the attacker needs to readjust (even if only for a split second) to throw a second attack. The centre line is exposed because it doesnt need to be gaurded in this case.

Also the large sweeping action requires no fine motor skills so when adrenalin hits (as a surprise haymaker from the guy you thought was walking away will do) It will work for you. Its a very practice method, simple but effective.

Taking it up a level it is applied moving forward as a trap, after parrying softly with the preparation hand (reverse sude arm) on the outside you advance and trap/strike with the blocking hand then pumel with the reverse as your hard trap becomes the soft (but strong) hikite to disturb the opponents equilibrium... every technique has its uses.

For Gedan barai I like to use the chamber as a parry (often slipping to the outside of the attack) and the preparation hand as a low reverse punch. Depending on my relative position the actual blocking action will then facilitate a sweep/kick to the back of the lead leg, hammer fist anywhere from the groin up, or Ill pull their attacking arm down to either unbalance them or exposse their flank, or simply sweep whatever defence they have mustered out of the way while throwing a short simultaneous reverse attack...

The problem with a sweeping block is not if it works, but what if you miss the block, you are wide open, and your energy is traveling to the side and it is you who then has to stop the energy and reset for another attack. This type of technique also uses too much muscular strength and engrains bad habits in a karateka. You are not really improving your position. What if the opponent is punching with a relaxed arm and your block only moves the arm below the elbow and not his/her body. Your opponent is in perfect position to attack you and you are out of position to attack. Moving your own body into position to attack is always better than trying to move someone's arm. With proper technique that is direct, whips, and attacks the attack is automatically removed. With proper body movement even if it is not you are not in position to be attacked effectively. There is no need to "sweep" an attack out of the way. In fact in karate my goal is to draw my opponent in when I attack. The sweeping block actually puts my opponent where I do not want him to be. Actually the okinawan technqiues don't require that much fine motor skills. There are certain keys and one main one is to drive the elbow on blocking techniques. If this is done properly your blocks will always attack and never "sweep" outside of your body line. The hand and arm simply whip into place.

Where to begin...

Whoever taught you how to do a sweeping block taught you incorrectly. Also when considering this method remember the type of technique it is designed to be applied against.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by medulanet:
The problem with a sweeping block is not if it works, but what if you miss the block, you are wide open, [/QUOTE]

1) Train harder, don't miss. 1a) unless you are lucky enough (or train specifically for it) to have your non-blocking hand in gaurding position in the same path that the block was meant to defend then missing a block means getting hit regardless of style. If your other hand is in such a position then you will often be leaving other areas vulnerable.

Once you commit to a technique, be it an attack or a defence, you are vulnerable, holes open in your gaurd, does this mean one should not commit?

1b) how can the point not be if a technique works? If the only techniques we applied were ones with safety redundencies built in no one would ever attack.. Itd be utopia, what a horrible thought.

[QUOTE]
...and your energy is traveling to the side and it is you who then has to stop the energy and reset for another attack. This type of technique also uses too much muscular strength and engrains bad habits in a karateka.
[/QUOTE]

2) Sweeping blocks are not wild swings, they are controlled movements, the natural restrictions of the joints and muscles are what stop the movement, not applied force by the karateka, the energy only travels to the point where the block stops (useful for limb destruction). None of the sweeping blocks should travel beyond the line of th body. 2a) Due to the controlled nature of the technique it can be redirected if need be. 3) the body mechanics facilitate more advanced applications such as strikes.


[QUOTE]
You are not really improving your position. What if the opponent is punching with a relaxed arm and your block only moves the arm below the elbow and not his/her body. Your opponent is in perfect position to attack you and you are out of position to attack. Moving your own body into position to attack is always better than trying to move someone's arm.
[/QUOTE]

4) Your oversimplifying the technique. What I discussed before was just the method in its most basic form. There is not one thing stopping you from moving/pivoting with the block. 4a) There is nothing stopping you blocking above the elbow for greater control. These things are actively taught and encouraged in good shotokan schools, and even in the straightline happy JKA schools beyond a certain level. I can't comment on other styles of Karate as I don't train in them.

4b) once contact is made with the opponent he should be controlled, Hikite, trapping, whatever. A soft arm will still be stopped and the attack countered.

"The most important attacks are the short strikes thrown from a block" Gichin Funakoshi.

[QUOTE]
With proper technique that is direct, whips, and attacks the attack is automatically removed. With proper body movement even if it is not you are not in position to be attacked effectively. There is no need to "sweep" an attack out of the way.
[/QUOTE]

5) Whipping blocks are something usually develloped naturally once the idea of limb destruction is brought in, or if the student starts studying kata like Heian Nidan. They are good against lighter more linear attacks, but not as effective against weighty attacks.

[QUOTE]
In fact in karate my goal is to draw my opponent in when I attack. The sweeping block actually puts my opponent where I do not want him to be.
[/QUOTE]

6) Why would you need to draw in someone who's weight is flying towards you? If Its not then there is no need to apply a full sweeping block.

[QUOTE]
Actually the okinawan technqiues don't require that much fine motor skills. There are certain keys and one main one is to drive the elbow on blocking techniques. If this is done properly your blocks will always attack and never "sweep" outside of your body line. The hand and arm simply whip into place. [/QUOTE]

7) I believe you. I dont know anything about Okinawan technique, hence not commenting on it. 7a) as I noted above, sweeping blocks should not break the line of the body, thats over extending, and whipping techniques have their own place.

The sweeping block is like all so called blocks impractical if you wait for someone to hit you before you react you will get hit
It is a law action is faster then reaction
It takes 4/10ths of a second to reacr I can hit you at least twice in that time
and you think after someone starts to punch you can pull your arm back then go forward to block it a la gedan berai
It is physically impossible
the above stats are scientific.
No macho stuff you cant do it
Read a science text on reaction of the human body.
These moves were never intended to be blocks
Ask anyone in the protection industry I have
Pre emptive is the only way to survive
And any way why would you give him the first punch
Get in a ring with a boxer and try to gedan berai his punches
and dont tll me your fighting untrained people in the street your not your fighting proffesionals muggers etc

MF

4/10ths of a second to react?

This is way too slow. You could NEVER block thigh kicks in sparring this way, or trap and counterpunch in a boxing match.

All the people I know in security never hit first. They watch what the patrons are doing and how they are progressing or degressing as the night evolves.

Yes, action is faster than reaction. He starts moving I mut observe process, choose a course of action all before I actually act.

By the way this is the Ian Abernathy Bulls#@t I was talking about. He does some very good work, but he twists information to make his points and trails out little tid bits to make u buy his next book or videos while advertising that its actually all there in one work. I remember the first article he published with this little pearl of wisdom. He stated it is impossible to block a punch because of the above fact. Two photo examples later, technique 1: block punch.

So action is faster than reaction. Fine, however if this was all there is to it people would never be able to block anything and we all know thats not right.

1) through regular martial arts training we learn to react to earlier signals, e.g. instead of reacting to the punch traveling through the air, we react to the hip or shoulder turning etc. This gives us more time and is also the reason people can be made to jump by flinching at them.

2) The reason we hold our hands in gaurd positions, such as the Fence, is to minimise the distance they have to move to defend vital areas. This helps lower time to interception further.

3) A punch, though started before a defence, has a further distance to travel than the blocking technique, giving us more time.

4) Evasive movement is a means of augmenting blocking actions. i.e. if I shift backwards a couple of inches I have even more time before the attack reaches me.

As for Gedan Barrai... I know I'm starting to sound like a roken record, so I ask all of you to pay attention to this bit especially as it is the last time I will say it.

The FULL blocking action (Chamber + preparation, then block) is ONLY for use against, POWERFUL, weight intensive attacks, ideally those lunging attacks begun out of distance.

Think of it as winding up to slam your blocking hand into the attack with the same amount of force that the attack posseses.

Where there is less room/time etc, the preparation hand is used as an initial parry which is then reinforced by the blocking hand.

This method does not remove the need or ability to adjust the traditional path of the block to the attack type, or to move/pivot/reposition while blocking to gain greater advantage.

The full technique of a basic sweeping block contains a variety of movements. These movements may be used individually or in conjunction with the whole to deal with a wide variety of attack types. These movements may also be applied offensively as locks or strikes.

Yes, I have gedan barraied punches, and boxers punches at that, many times... from a fighting gaurd the lead hand drops in a clockwise arc deflecting the punch away. I explained in a previous post (or maybe it was in the Nijushiho thread) how Ive used the full technique.

As for pre-empting. It is certainly easier, however it can create legal issues. I have found verbal diffusion to be the best way personally and professionally. Many people allow themselves to get riled up when faced with an agressor and their verbal attempts at stopping the conflict are just token. Pre-emptive attacking I only recomend if you are outnumbered and you can not see negotiation working.
Actually most "professionals" avoid fighting. Drunks are more likely to kick off than your average mugger. They struggle once you've got them, but thats slightly different.

Offence is the best defence, but real life (for most of us) is not a war zone. Most human aggression signals are designed to avoid fighting and save face. Keeping that in mind, defusing situations works more often than not.

naihanshi shodan salutation: one hand push- bring your right hand to your left pectoral (where the push is) and place your hand on top of the assailants, insert your fingers between theirs and finish the movement the faster that you do the cover the easier it is to get the fingers in(stab through) (slowly the finger will break or at least hurt a lot if you do it too quickly).
Pinan yondan we don't do as an ex block it looks like a low block and then you follow with the right hand across. Bunkai for this can start with the preceeding movement, think overhand strike with a long weapon ( or an overhead stab, or a hammerfist, or a regular punch to the head if your cat stance is low enough) capture your opponents left wrist with your left hand, at the same time strike into the underarm(or armpit no difference) with the right hand. Turn over the arm as you step forward with your left leg and do the low block motion. Drive you right forarm through the opponents elbow, step out towards opponent (variation) and strike under the chin (throat) with the right hand, slide feet together, pull the opponents head down into a reverse choke. (bent over backwards)
Sound good, I hope so, it works for me.

The kata belong to Chin kata (Chinto, Chinte, Sochin, Shisochin, Sankin, Seienkin),these kata comes from south chinese system (Nampa), so it needs the Dianxue knowledge. M°Ason brought Naihanchi at Okinawa from china.It was the principal kata of the Naha line. The Ason line was the first dojo in Naha. It was influenced by the interior chinese styles.
M°Itosu split in three this kata, Naihanchi-shodan,Naihanchi-nidan,Naihanchi-sandan.
I'm studying this kata in shotokan version (tekki), i'd like to know something on the breathing and the energy flow of this kata...i'm intrested on the interior meanning of the kata,esoteric aspest.I think the bunkai is important, but it is secondary.
Than Auto-defense is a very small part of kata. Maybe you can learn auto-defence, without undertand anything about kata and karate.
I found the kata information on "werner lind".
t.u.
Excuse me for my bad english!

[This message has been edited by neleo (edited 01-08-2005).]

work on the stance first, and the body positioning, once you get these right the breathing will come to you. Start with the physical.