Wanduan/Wando

Does anybody know these? I have seen applications, they were beatuiful, and devestating.

The Chinese name is Huang Kuang Tsou I think.

Mark,

Patrick McCarthy published a version of Wandan in his book on Okinawan Karate long ago. I believe his version may have come from his friend Richard Kim, in those days.

The only other version I'm aware of is that by John Sells (Wando) on the video tape he made of it.

I and my senior students play with the McCarthy version, it is an interesting mixture of techniques from many styles, You can find Shorin (several styles), Goju, Tomari and Ueichi technique in the form, depending on how you classify technique.

I like it for group drilling because it's short, and it utilizes a wide range of technique making it great for technique skill development.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Yes, I can source the Mc Carthy book, a lapsed Shodan of ours has it.

It's not an Isshinryu kata is it? where did you learn it from? Do you know any applications to start me off?

Although not a Shotokan kata, I have seen it referred to on some Shotokan sites. Which is weird considering how Jiin and Wankan are out of flavour....

As for those who are long time forum dwellers, you may want to know why I am so gung ho about Tomari Te - simple; when I do a Tomari te form, it is easier for me to find applications, and I can see a hard/soft balance within it.

Mark,

I worked up the version we drill with from McCarthy's text. I make no claim I'm correct in execution, and comparing it to Sells video, for one turn I step in and Sells steps away.

But our only use of it is for execution technique study, which is why I like it. I've been using it for about 12 years now.

Mark, the manner I work technique application is rarely looking at kata sections, but rather most often fractals of the movement.

The late Sherman Harrill, at a series of clinics in my school, shared 800 application potential studies from Isshinryu's 8 kata. He'd open a clinic doing 3 or so hours on any kata's first movement. I try in my own way to continue the studies he shared, but believe me we have more than enough technique to work on, so I frequently don't pursue kata for applications.

Instead you need an attacker (very slowly in the first stages) using varieties of attacks, and you need to try and make the same defense work against any of the attacks, at many different angles of insertion.

That will show you what works, and what is less apt, and help begin to develop skill to learn how to 'sell' movement.

Victor

re: Fractals of movement

I have come up with 9 applications of the salutation to passai and first movement alone.

Since I do shotokan kata, do you suggest I change the kata for application or not? I suspect you will say no, and so far, we have found or linked together many applications and principles, simply by rejecting the JKA applications and looking for more. I also think there is value finding the original stuff practised in China, for Shaolina nd Shorei kata, even though I have been told and beleive there is no set applications.

That said, I do think it is easier, but you have more experience.

Does anyone else have information to share about this form?

Mark,

You're sure asking the age old question, should I change the kata. It's likely the original source of kata change was somebody using a different attack and fitting the 'new' kata to that attack.

First to address application potential, there are no rules, if you want to modify potential you can do so freely. That doesn't you have to change the kata, just you're using the kata technique as a springboard for application potential. In fact its likely best not to change the kata, and use it for energy flow development as it stands.

On the whole the Northern Chinese arts taught only one application per form technique, but they had forms with hundreds and hundreds of techniques and in turn had hundreds of forms, so working technique fractals or variations made no sense for those arts.

Other Chinese arts likely had different solutions.

A point, if the Chinese arts are what you feel the source is, should't you leave karate behind and pursue those arts?

In my experience the system means little, its what YOU do with it, Okinawan, Japanese or Chinese.

Victor

mark, i've felt the same way about the shotokan kata and the lame applications generally taught. remember that many shotokan katas have been modified & standardized for tournaments. but it doesn't mean the value is lost. the applications are there and are as limitless as your imagination. they just may not be obvious. i've been told that if you do a kata correct, an observer can see and feel (ok, maybe an educated observer) what your intention is. however, this approach may not win tournaments! anyway, a good instructor to get you in the door is great, but hard to find since alot of clubs gear for tournaments. crosstraining in a grappling/throwing style (judo, jiujitsu) will do wonders for your discovery of bunkai. there are a some rare good books on this.

i thoroughly believe that an advanced practitioner should study the forms of other styles to broaden his understanding (chinese > okinawan > japanese). but in the beginning there is more than enough there to keep you busy.

I do Hapkido now, have experience in analysing kata, can get my hands on Mc Carthy's book, sometimes train with him at semianrs and have had State kata champions train with us.

All's that's left is to learn the damned kata!

Mark,

I don't believe that's all there is.

The best I've trained with in kata applications also had cleaner and better kata and form technique than most around. It's much more than just learning the moves, I wish it was that simple.

Tris Sutrisno's family's approach to Shotokan was the student didn't begin the study of formal 'bunaki' or as I would call it 'kakushite' until after Sho-dan, and then there would be a methodical instruction of one application for each 'movement' point in the form. At Ni Dan an entirely different application would be studied. And so forth at each of their five dan levels.

At no time did the student try to work up applications for movement. That paradigm was based on basic kata practice for timing release, clean technique, and the gradual study of thousands of techniques.

The larger study was beyond the basic one, how to set up the opponent to sell the application, how to minimize movements for faster response, getting more and more for less and less.

While that is just one answer, where my studies look at the fractal potential of kate movement (from entire sections to sections of sections) students still don't begin that study till well into their sho-dan studies.

It's more than just the movement, you have to trust it under stress, trust it not to turn it into something else. That's logical in real self defense when only survival is the answer, but if you're trying to develop advanced skills, if you change the technique, you're just cheating yourself.

The problem is some 'stuff' takes a long time, and if you don't work it completely you can't get it.

The issue isn't short term defense, we use other methods than basic kata application for that, its long term skill development.

Obviously the best answer is to not think, but have an instructor that is really training and developing your skills long term, not just having your run forms.

Just some experience on my side,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Well, I was being a little glib eh?

The Sustrinos - is there a webpage about them? Very interesting, sounds like the old chinese way to me.

Can you explain what happened at each Dan?

Mark,

Tris is Indonesian. His father, a Doctor, was drafted into the Japanese navy and attended military college in Japan in the 30's (when they controlled Indonesia). That's where he trained with Funakoshi, and one of Usheiba's students in Aikido.

He only teaches privately today, Shotokan and Indonesian arts, in separte classes in NE Penna. He is doing clinics on the Indonesian systems.

If you do a Google for Tristan Sutrisno I know you'll find his site on his Indonesian arts. There are several clips there and I can only say he's far faster in person than they show.

Victor