Wankan

I have just learned the Shotokan version of this form. Does anyone know the old version (Wankuan), and any knowledge of bunkai?

The only Wankan I've seen was of Kanazawa Sensei performing it in a French Karate Magazine.

The article says "In Exclusiveness for official karate Kanazawa Sensei executes Wankan.

Also known under the names of SHIOFU and HITO, it is a very representative of Tomari-Te kata. The speed of projection after having dodged an attack without giving time has the adversary to react by giving to him the impression of a secret technique in Karate-Do, is one of the very important points has to observe.

Wankan belongs to the group of MATSUMURA. It has been adopted by the styles SHOTOKAN and SHITO-RYU, but the two are very different versions.

In the style SHOTOKAN, it is characterized by many attacks to the joints, HASAMI-UKE with the two hands while raising simultaneously the knee, JODAN SOTO-UKE, TETTSUIUCHI and KOKO-UKE with the knee blocking KERI, etc.

It is the shortest KATA of the SHOTOKAN. Of a very difficult execution, it finishes with YAMA-ZUKI in FUDODACHI, the very low hips."

I just did a very quick translation for you, and didn't round off the rough edges, but I think this is what you're looking for.

Except for this article I've not seen it anyplace else, thought I'd have to watch through my Shito-ryu tapes for their version.

I haven't seen Shotokan or Shito-ryu on the East Coast of the USA using this form.

Hope you find this helpful, and I appologzie for the roughness of the translation. When I do them for myself I don't try and change the 'french' nature of the language as long as I grasp the meaning.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Victor, you are very right about it being a Tomari kata, however, the Matsubayashi Ryu version is the oldest version that exists today. Wankan is known for its striking combinations which are difficult to discribe on the net, but involve a lot of body shifting, in-fighting, vital point striking, immobilization techniques, generating power in small areas, etc. This was a favorite kata of Nagamine, and is very representative of the tomari style of karate. It shares similar elements with the Passai, Rohai, and Wanshu of Tomari all of which are in the Matsubayashi Ryu style. In my opinion the Matsubayashi Ryu Wankan represents it the best, it is a free flowing kata using relaxed power, something I have seen Japanese kata lacking.

The article seems a little flawed - e.g, Matsumura was not a Tomari Te man. Perhaps they mean Matsumora.

"In my opinion the Matsubayashi Ryu Wankan represents it the best, it is a free flowing kata using relaxed power, something I have seen Japanese kata lacking."

This is why I would like to learn an older version. After the low spearhand in cat stance, it seems like it has no flow.

The shotokan kata is as follows:

Yoi.
(1) Cross right foot over left, then step out at a 45 degree angle to the left into left back stance with wedge block. (NW)
(2) Cross left foot over right, then step out 90 degrees to the right (45 degrees compared to opening stance) into right back stance with wedge block. (NE)
(3) Bring right foot back to left (hook right foot behind left knee) and perform slow double outside forearm blocks until arms are touching in front of your body. (N)
(4) Take three steps forward, right foot, then left, followed by right again into right forward stance with slow left sweep block. (N)
(5) Right mid-level punch. (N)
(6) Left mid-level punch. (N)
(7) Draw left foot up towards right and then pivoting on right foot turn 90 degrees to the left into left cat stance with low left palm pressing block and a low right palm heel strike across left arm. (W)
(8) Step forward into right forward stance with slow left sweep block. (W)
(9) Right mid-level punch. (W)
(10) Left mid-level punch. (W)
(11) Draw left foot up towards right and then pivoting on right foot turn 180 degrees behind into left cat stance with low left palm pressing block and a low right palm heel strike across left arm. (E)
(12) Step forward into right forward stance with slow left sweep block. (E)
(13) Right mid-level punch. (E)
(14) Left mid-level punch. (E)
(15) Look over right shoulder. Pivoting on left foot, move right foot into right horse stance 90 degrees to the right with right front punch. (S)
(16) Left front kick. (S)
(17) Land in left forward stance (after kick) with left mid-level punch. (S)
(18) Right front kick. (S)
(19) Land in right forward stance (after kick) with right mid-level punch. (S)
(20) Left front kick. (S)
(21) Land in left forward stance (after kick) with left mid-level punch. (S)
(22) Load up fists on left hip. Pivoting on left foot, turn 180 degrees behind into right forward stance with U-punch. Kiai!!! (N)
Yame.

How do/es the older version/s vary? 15-21 look and feel very awkward. 1- 20, 22 feel very relaxed and flowing (IMO).

Allright, time to spoonfeed me some applications......

Hi Mark,

I didn't vet the article for historical accuracy <GRIN>, just translated it, and it does read Matsumura. At least we know what they're saying about it in France. The magazine had been picked up by a friend about 17 years ago during his business travels.

I had forgotten about the Nagamine version, but I don't do the form, just remembered I had that article (and had never translated it before).

Just comparing the Kanazawa version to the Nagamine version, they're somewhat similar, the first differences the deeper Shotokan style stances, but seem to follow similar embusen.

Mark as for application potential of the technique, not running the form.

But I can offer a 'quickie' starting at no. 8.

(8) Step forward into right forward stance with slow left sweep block. (W)
(9) Right mid-level punch. (W)
(10) Left mid-level punch. (W)

This type of sweep block can be a pressing check into the shoulder. If somebody is trying to roundhouse punch you, a strike or press to the shoulder effectively stops their attack from reaching you, then the doubls strike to complete the counter makes sense.

Working the shoulder is often sound strategy, if you hit it you damage their striking ability, you press it back destroying the alignment behind their strike, greatly weakening it.

So that's a starter.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

I am not a fan of describing kata in text. Short of me actually showing you I would say go by "The Essense of Okinawan Karate-do" by Shoshin Nagamine. It has pictoral depictions of all Matsubayashi Ryu kata. It is not as much the sequence(however, sequence is important, and the one you described has the basic outline of our kata although there is A LOT missing and changed) but the flavor. The way okinawan karate such as Matsubayashi and japanese kata such as Shotokan generate power is very different. The reason you feel a lack of flow is because from a perspective of Okinawan karate the Shotokan Wankan is all wrong. However, I will attempt to give you an idea of our Wankan. I will refer to direction in times on a clock with 12 o'clock directly in front from yoi.

Yoi
1. Shuto uke nekoashi dachi to 3:00 and here you must attack stepping with the right foot!
2. Shuto uke nekoashi dachi to 9:00 and again you must attack stepping with the left foot.
3. Step with right foot to 3:00 into naname zenkutsu dachi with hands chambered and double punch to 12:00 as you shift into jigotai dachi.
4. Step to 12:00 into zenkutsu dachi with a double head block. Then extend both arms parallel to the ground striking with "horizontal hammer fists".
5. Three consecutive shuto ukes in nekoashi dachi to 9:00.
Although it is all important the next part is indicative of the kata, is the most advanced techniques in the kata, and is the key sequence.
6. Step at a 45 degrees with the left foot and perform a chudan soto uke with your right arm, but the hand is in a shuto. Extend your right knee up as you perform the "block" and straighten(not completely) the leg you are standing on. You left hand is not chambered but your hand is lightly grasping your right forearm.
7. As you lower your right leg into a jigotai dachi the hand that is blocking turns over so the palm is facing out and "picks up" the attack coming in and draws it into the chamber. As this happens your left hand punches without chambering. It is a very short punch used in in-fighting, but very powerful and effective. As soon as this punch lands pull the hand under the armpit of your right arm and punch with the right hand. This is a locking/trapping technique that is very useful and very "Tomari".
8. Shift into nanami zenkutsu dachi and perform a chudan soto uke with the left arm, again with a shuto. As soon as the "block" lands shift back into jigotai dachi and bring the shuto to your right arm and place it where the deltoid and bicep meet. As you do this punch with the right hand. Again another very "Tomari" lock/trap.

This is only a portion of the kata. This sequence is repeated, there are a few zenkutsu dachi gedan ukes which follow immediately with a punch as you slide up to a shizentai dachi. There is also a sequence of punches followed by mae geris. In okinawan karate the kicks are whipped and the target is struck before extension. This series can be interpretted as stepping on an opponent's foot(possibly digging a toe into the instep) punching with gyaku zuki and then whipping a kick into the knee/ inner thigh/groin/lower abdomen. I have already written too much and I fear that what I wrote does not give the kata justice. But this is a small taste of Wankan.

Actually, you nearly have convinced me to by the book. It's on the list of fifty or so "must have" MA books I desperately want. It's been bumped up to the top now.....

All advice is appreciated.

Is it normal for self defense from kata to involve wrapping the opponent up until they can't fight back, then throwing finishing strikes?

i know/practise wankan, train shotokan and am on the east coast. in my current club nobody knows or trains it, altho some have heard of it. i learned it from my previous instructor (shotokan as well), who liked to learn/train the more esoteric kata.

wankan is interesting. its probably the shortest kata, and in the shotokan version only has one kiai. is this just an anomoly? is the second half of the kata missing?

its also missing from nakayama's best karate series, which is where many shotokan stylists turn for their kata instruction.

i like it b/c it has some interesting body movement/techniques that remind me of other kata, but with a different flavor.

examples:

the opening wedge blocks are like gojushiho. the knee up arms together posture is unique to this kata, as is advancing three steps forward without any other technique issued. strange. the next steps reminisce of sochin. turns into cat stance with scooping grab and strike similiar to nijushiho. the return down the embusen is simple, yet a practical technique. variations found in many shotokan kata; jion, jiin, gojushiho, heain yondan. the end movement harkens back to bassai dai, but you turn behind, low and almost ducking. strike high + low. very self defence minded.

mark, i think it is normal for good kata application to progress to a point where an oppenent is "finished." kick/punch evolves into a strike, into grab, break, throw, sumbmit/finish so they are no longer a threat. it certainly enrichens the kata experience.

The whole point of me learening Wankan is that it is rarely practiced, and is looked down on.

I want to do a couple of things: I know a very short sequence of kata can come up with a muiltitude of applications. Being a short kata i.e, a small series of short sequences, it should have tons.

It has some unique movements - so in theory anyway, some unique SD techs.

I want small kata to have a bit mroe prestiege - Tekki/Naihanchin, Wnasu/Enpi, Hangetsu/Seisan, (and Passai, but it verges on being long) have had some of the best SD I have seen.

Hey, I'm a big fan of Tomari Te. Some people think Shorin Ryu is entriely Shuri Te!

And I want to do all these for my 3rd Dan Grading which comes up, at earliest in March 2007. I'll go for that when I feel comfortable having the title of "Sensei", rather than Senpai.

I think that the reason you are seeing such good applications from these kata is that in Matsubayashi Wankan, Rohai, Wanshu, and Passai are the oldest kata we have and what one would call "ancient stream" kata. When okinawan kata was for "killing" these were the kata that were trained(along with a few others such as Seisan I am sure). It seems as if you are following the right path, don't be afraid of where it takes you. Unfortunately, as you have eluded to, the path you are taking will most likely be frowned upon by most Shotokan circles. Also, although I have never seen "your" karate if you do shotokan your technique execution my present some difficulties in actually properly utilizing these "ancient stream" kata. The power generation, timing, and distancing is different in your karate's kata than in okinawan karate. However, I like where you are going with your studies.

Fortunately, though we do Nakayama, there is a lot of leeway. For example, I have shorter stances. My hangestu stance is like the old one. We are encouraged to find the older versions if we can, and practice them as well.

"The power generation, timing, and distancing is different in your karate's kata than in okinawan karate. However, I like where you are going with your studies."

I am playing around with hip movement at the moment. I try to be able to throw a technique and my hips either way, sometimes relaoding twice, and sometimes because of the previous technique. I even do it now when executing a kake uke.

What do you see the difference is, apticulalry with Wankan?

In Matsubayashi our power can be related to a coil. First you compress the coil and then release it. By assuming a certain structure you create a natural tension in the body, it is not forced and not a conscious muscular tightening. Then by executing the technique you release that tension which gives you power. The hip movement is used during this release of tension to augment your power, but is not the sole driving force. Breathing, foot movement, twisting of the hand and arm, keeping the elbow down, moving with your center is also involved. There is also a lot more, I myself am still learning and improving.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by medulanet:
In Matsubayashi our power can be related to a coil. First you compress the coil and then release it. By assuming a certain structure you create a natural tension in the body, it is not forced and not a conscious muscular tightening. Then by executing the technique you release that tension which gives you power. The hip movement is used during this release of tension to augment your power, but is not the sole driving force. Breathing, foot movement, twisting of the hand and arm, keeping the elbow down, moving with your center is also involved. There is also a lot more, I myself am still learning and improving. [/QUOTE]

Sounds exactly the same as Shotokan to me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
Sounds exactly the same as Shotokan to me.

[/QUOTE]

That is very good, because all Shotokan I have seen is very rigid and stiff in performance and uses a lot of muscular tension. In the Shotokan I have seen the karateka usually have their elbows out and do not use them to drive their techniques. I am pleased your Shotokan is different, please spread the word.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by medulanet:
That is very good, because all Shotokan I have seen is very rigid and stiff in performance and uses a lot of muscular tension. In the Shotokan I have seen the karateka usually have their elbows out and do not use them to drive their techniques. I am pleased your Shotokan is different, please spread the word. [/QUOTE]

No Shotokan student should ever have their elbows out. On the other hand I saw several schools at a seminar who punched by unrolling their fists letting their arms whip out. They'd realised the key to speed is relaxation and their technique and failed from being too relaxed too early. For a good look at Traditional Shotokan technique I'd recomend leafing through a copy of Dynamic Karate by Nakayama the next time you pass through a Barne n Noble. Also take a look in the General Martial arts section of the forum there are a couple of posts made over the last week abuot Shotokan.

If one knows about proper bunkai, Goshin Jutsu and real kumite, shotokan and it's basics, stances are kata are fine if you modify them so they are effective and suit you.

One thing I notice is Shotokan schools exaggerate all manner of things - i.e a good foward stance often looks like an advert for Thomas Kurz.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
No Shotokan student should ever have their elbows out. On the other hand I saw several schools at a seminar who punched by unrolling their fists letting their arms whip out. They'd realised the key to speed is relaxation and their technique and failed from being too relaxed too early. For a good look at Traditional Shotokan technique I'd recomend leafing through a copy of Dynamic Karate by Nakayama the next time you pass through a Barne n Noble. Also take a look in the General Martial arts section of the forum there are a couple of posts made over the last week abuot Shotokan.

[/QUOTE]

I own the book, and I see a lot of punches with the elbows out. I can tell by the fists that are parallel to the floor. Again, I see a lot of things that are just not sound in okinawan karate. Hips not rotated fully, elbows out, elbow not driving blocking techniques. Its very difficult to explain in writing, you have to really see what I am trying to explain. It seems as if Japanese karate uses a more mechanical model to generate power rather than naturally like in okinawan karate. That is why the differences in katas such as Wankan are hard to describe like this, I would have to show you.

Unless your in Denver or can upload Mpegs onto a website, describing is the only way Im going to understand, because otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about.

I have seen modern Okinawan Karate, the only differences I've seen are in kata movements not in technique. I have a video of funakoshi demonstrating Karate before it was known as Japanese. The main difference with his technique was single handed blocking actions as opposed to modern 2-handed movements. As I understand it the two handed movements came in with Nakayama's work which was a scientific revision of karate technique. A couple of his ideas have been debunked, but for the most part they have been shown to be effective.

The things I'm unsure of are:

[QUOTE] I see a lot of punches with the elbows out. I can tell by the fists that are parallel to the floor. Again, I see a lot of things that are just not sound in okinawan karate. Hips not rotated fully, elbows out, elbow not driving blocking techniques.
[/QUOTE]

Also could you explain what is wrong with this guys technique?
http://www.dentokanhombu.com/kata.htm

To me it is no different to Shotokan so evidently it must be flawed.

If any shotokan practitioners performed their kata the way that guy did, I may have more respect for them for the simple fact that he moved much more fluidly than any Shotokan karate I have ever seen perform kata. However, his karate is different from mine. You think I say that other karate that is different from mine is flawed, and it may be, but I am only comparing Matsubayashi with Shotokan, so what is flawed in mine may not be in yours. Anyway, his kata was ok, but again although there is something to be said for "clean" kata I witnessed many times where his hips were "frozen." I don't feel he was utilizing them properly to generate power. The idea of "koshi" is very important in karate. It is important to not over utilize it or under utilize it. This was very aparent on his Naihanchi kata. He was just using his arms many times and not developing his power generation properly and this can be seen in his more advanced kata also. The legs must be "solid", yet the upper body must be "soft." His blocks are very different from ours, you must drive the elbow when blocking. It feels as if he is making large arm motions and not attacking with his blocking techniques, driving his elbow, and letting the block happen by itself. A chudan soto uke is in many ways like throwing a frisbee. To throw it really far you do not make a large motion, you drive your elbow and flick your wrist. The flick of the wrist is like the "snap" of karate techniques. I didn't see a whole lot of snap. Some power you see, and some you feel. I also thought his stances were too low. Again, video is a tricky thing and I would truly have to be there to "test" his karate. Having said that there is a lot I do not know and am still working on. There are probably a lot of things that any number of people may find wrong with my technqiue. My only goal is to improve and constantly gain more knowledge.

I understand what you mean about elbows driving blocking motoins now. You find both people who do it and people who dont within the Shotokan style, Just a you find those who work on more fluid kata and kihon (Shotokai is a whole style within the Umbrella of Shotokan who work to make their karate more like Aikido), and those who practice hard stacato movements (Both to increase the exercise potential and to work on building power for the One hit-one kill concept).
The "elbow driven" blocking is great if you are striking with the block but carries less power for sweeping something out of the way. I personally practice both methods. Utilising the hips does bring great power to a technique but it breaks the form of your posture, weakening you in close quarters. Fujian kung fu, supposedly the main source point of Okinawan karate, utilises the waist for power generation and keeps the hips locked square, Naihanchi actually works better as an exercise if done this way and its applications all fit this method as well.

My point is simply dont be so quick to judge something wrong, especially when you can only have experienced a small sample of the style. All things have their place. That guy in the videos is ranked 8th dan and his linneage has som of the biggest names in Okinawan Karate including the Shoshin Nagamine.

Medula':
Great replies and I express the same concerns for most of the Japanese karate I've witnessed, be it Shotokan or most other Japanese ryuha.

I don't think that these guys even know what you're saying. They've never trained with the proper structural ki or techniques so they can't understand your words completely. The difference in techs may seem small to the unknowing, but like an armbar in GJJ if the thumb is not up then you might not sink the technique. Something as small as that can effect the efficacy of fighting maneuvers.

I hear nothing about rising and falling power. Koshi is very standard in Japanese MAs. That's one component of power. Gravity and its utilization is the other. Ever hear boxing coaches tell their fighters to "sit down" on their punches? The reverse can be true too.

Also, "whipping" is not keage or "snapping". Whipping is like a good muay thai kick without the overextension. You just extend beyond the target, and whip it back as fast or faster. Takes years to unlearn all that gendai junk and do this. Unless you are a good "popper" who can wave, tick, animate, baby-rock, strobe-light, hit and 3-D. I doubt anyone on here is that though, hahaha!

Seriously though, even the horizontal fist is sign of non-self preservation technique. It's about the amount of antagonistic vs. protagonistic muscle action and how far your elbow goes from your center. Medulanet is right. Elbow brushes the side for a reason when doing kata.

The Naihanchi kata are NEVER done with perfectly square immovable hips. That's kid technique. You should rotate your hips and they should spring back when executing a strike, and YOUR BODY should pull back your punches to the side as you walk across. I might explain later if you guys want to know what that movement means. Medulanet was 100% right about Naihanchi's purpose. Strong root, supple branches. Just like Shorin!

One typical example I like to use when comparing Shotokan and good Shorin is the fact that they are reverse tech happy: reverse punches, rear leg kicks, reverse ridgehands and fighting from an orthodox stance. They like robotic, uniform embusen choppy stuff and one strike poop. They like forward and back, even if they claim otherwise. That shows their affinity for kumite tricks, not real fighting techs. It's a tell-tale sign. A good karate-ka will almost always have his strong side forward, but he should be ambidextrous. He should always think combos even overkill!

He also knows that unpadded strikes act differently than padded ones. He/she knows that a broken nose or orbit is more likely to give him an advantage in a street scenario than the hope that your reverse punch to the solar plexus will strike perfectly and knock and adrenalized person down. KOs in the street are very rare unless it's a surprise thing, or unless you submit the fool with a choke or dislocate/break a limb severely (which is when tuite is used in real karate- to finish him off). All this bare-knuckle punching, pushing strength, ikken hisatsu crap is beyond laughable. Quit with the constipation already!!!

This Shonuff cat must be a Brit. Those cats are like 20 years behind the good American karate-ka. No xenophobia or nationalism is meant by this. It's just the truth.

Go find a good Okinawan karate sensei and compare and contrast. From what I've read there ain't a one in all England, but Spain use to have at least one good Seito guy. When you say it all looks the same it makes me wonder if you're using your eyes to see with or what the hell you've been seeing! There is no way that Matsubayashi or any other good Shorin Ryuha looks like Shotokan or even acts like Shotokan. This I can say fo' sheez'. Peace.



[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 12-10-2004).]

Multiversed!

I'm impressed you managed to express an opinion and provide some supporting knowledge, well done!

I have to say I agree with much of what you posted. Believe it or not I'm not convinced Shotokan is the ultimate or even that it is without flaws. My objection is to people off-handedly dismissing the entire art or it's methods as different people practice differently, also much of what people post about arts they dont study in depth is incorrect. The elbow brushes the side in Shotokan as well. When Ive detected the changes and differences between Shotokan kata I've usually been able to work out good reasons for them. I am genuinely interested in knowledge and comparing notes.

Do you have anything to back up that Funakoshi was a mediocre Karateka? Is there any information that states that any kata beyond the Pinans were intended for school kids? Most Kata changes were made by Gigo Funakoshi who was interested in modernising Karate and emphasising its combative aspects.

Have you ever really studied shotokan Kata and tried to work out why things are as they are? I have and I've found answers that work very well. All your arguments for why Okinawan styles are superior are based on the fact that its older, and that Shotokan is "schoolboy" karate. I've researched this, beyond the Pinans there is no "schoolboy" karate, and just because it's older it doesnt mean it's better. If I'm wrong I'd love to hear evidence of it, not mindless baseless rants.

When Ive directed posts at you before Multi, I have always been trying to get you to cut the superiority complex crap and point out the differences and the reasons for them, i.e. promote discussion and exchange.

If you are finally willing to do that I'd be very interested in hearing more about the fabled okinawan styles, applications of Naihanchi and anything else you might wish to share. If your going to degenerate into another stylist rant then I think I'm safe in saying that no one wants to know. It doesnt help anyone or anything except maybe your own ego.

Why dont you go into some more detail about the points you brought up, maybe make some reference to your understanding of Wankan?

Also I'm curious if it is just Japanese Karate or all Itosu/Azato linneage arts?

I believe those two were students of Matsumura so where do you think it all went wrong?

[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 12-10-2004).]

Multi: as V Smith knows, I always have more questions, and you have opened another can of worms!

Shotokan must have a bad rep, I think it does, the way they exaggerate stuff borders on bizzare.

Although I do Nakayama kata, the way that I MYSELF do kata is closer to Wado Ryu. And yes, I do rise and fall in punches, I leanred that from sparring exp. and Yamashita told my Sensei that way before I started. My hip movement is very free flowing and it does not score well in Shotokan/FMK tournaments. Most people, even in my Hapkido classes don't move their hips when they do Kake Uke. I do.

As for kicks: I only strighten my leg in mawashi geri if it is the Kyokushin type with the feet pulled back to take their head off. I do two different types of thigh kicks: snapping and a "cut" kick which I skip the front foot out, bend the knee and it does extend, but it doesn't strighten.

Mate, I do think overkill, we spar full contact and when it is permitted, I go for the takedown, finishing strike/hold, and overwhleming combo.

Naihanchi: my hips move ALL of the time, I learned this from a Kofukan (Shito Ryu sect) practitioner when I was a 2nd Kyu! It's got a flow man, Naihanchi Sandan is alll about linking wrsitlocks into takedowns, and successive PP tech! I do whip my kicks, use all striking surfaces and it was you who convnced me to stop chambering! (Except as a balance drill, my balance is terrible, even for someone who ahs been doing MA's for 11 years).

I don't know multi, either I am stupid and unteachable, or maybe it was my Sensei etc, that steered my away from the JKA and it's ways.

You have commented on how you like my bunkai interpretation, I can handle myself, and I know you are a skilled Seito dude. No need o prove myself. I am just so surprised in how rigid and Butokukai-esque most Shotokan really is.

Multi - Wankan isn't Shorin, but I think you were Shorinkan no? What is your opinion on Wankan, how does it vary from the Shotokan version and what do you know of applications?

"Seriously though, even the horizontal fist is sign of non-self preservation technique. It's about the amount of antagonistic vs. protagonistic muscle action and how far your elbow goes from your center. Medulanet is right. Elbow brushes the side for a reason when doing kata."

Eh? punching from a guard still has the same motion of rotation, even if it does not go as far. In kata, there is good reason, in torite to do so, and in fighting, I want to protect my flanks. I am starting to leanr about anatomy, what you say about agonist and antagonist muscles is intriuging. Your a med. resident are you not? Please go on.....

Multi: I ask just one thing, please elaborate [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Mark, regardless of what styles you've done your knowledge of karate seems beyond that of the typical practitioner. Even your interpretation of Naihanchi was refreshing, but I do think that those wristlocks can be neck wrenches/throws, and the fumikomi geri is a patent trip or sweep in one of the applications, among other things. regardless of what you hear there are numerous interpratations for each movement in kata, but there are approaches and techs that make more sense than others, and there are tandard applications for each movement. It just depends on how your sensei learned them. Good kata is also a type of chigung/kigong and any sustained full-bodymovement for minutes is good for the health, too.

Did you learn from Tadashi Yamashita? He is a good Okinawan shinshii and his style of Kobayashi is very good. His brand of Shorinkan strays very little from Nakazato's teachings. Swallowing and spitting are very important White Crane principles often overlooked by gendai karate-ka. It's not a secret, just a forgotten or never learned principle in karate that many syles fail to teach.

There are subsets of Shotokan that teach very good old style karate, but most of it is just for prestige and tournaments and for money-making, like most MAs. Nothing wrong with that if you are doing legit karate, but if what you do is pesudo-kickboxing with some dance skills thrown in then you're doing what Sokon Matsumura warned against in the 18800's: Budo of the Nominals. If all that you do is based on theory with no real practice of the essence of tode, then you're practicing Bujutsu of Intelligence- it lacks a concrete feel.

I just don't like folks like Shonuff getting on here and making like they know what it's all about, when they don't even know what it is they're defining. I am a fair person. If he were to enter my dojo with the attitude that "I know what you do because I did an art that went through similar motions", I would have to ask him to leave. Conversely I would never walk into a JKA dojo and claim I know their MA better than they do. I would never walk into a JKA dojo to learn anything, because from what I've seen it is Hope Ryu. I'm pretty sure that it is nothing like Gichin intended.

So what proof do I have that Funakoshi was respected more for his status as a grade school teacher than that of a sensei? Well for one Motobu stated it several times throughout his life. I know they were commercial rivals to a degree, at least in Motobu's eyes, but Choki didn't act like that towards Mabuni Kenwa or any of the other more respected Okinawan Shinshii. To this day on Okinawa this sentiment is the same. They tend to think that Funakoshi just finished what Itosu had started. Itosu, Matsumura and Miyagi are thought of as Okinawa's greatest karate pioneers.

I like what you write Mark, and the fact that you want to know more. As for more detail, c'mon now! You gotta pay (sweat, time and a small amount of $$$) to know the secrets in full detail, hahahaha! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I think I've given you guys enough to know I'm not faking it.

Good looking out, as the cool kids say.

Pax...

Oh yeah. Wankan. It's not in Shorinkan or Orthodox Shorin. I did do Matsubayashi for a year too and I learned it then. I think it's a good form. I wonder if Nagamine picked it up while he was stationed in Taiwan, because it looks like a rigid Shouting Crane form I've seen before.

Anyway it is a decent form, equal to Ananku or Wansu in importance. I think that Seisan as Seito does it covers all those bases in just one form. Nonetheless all of the Tomari-based forms are cool to look at, and their influence in most Kyan-influenced Shorin is apparent. Most styles of MOSR do them too (as additional forms), but the stances and techs are changed to reflect Soken's karate.

They are good supplemental forms, like the Hakutsuru, but the core Shuri Te and Naha Te forms are all you really need, IMHO. To know the movements of kata is not enough. Knowing how to apply them to your reality is.

Sorry I don't give more details. My time is very limited. Again don't take my confidence as conceit. I have sooooooooooooo much more to learn. I am only a nidan after all!

Multiverse,

You mention Yamashita, Tashadi He sure could move.

Do you have any idea why he did a Self Defense tape for Panther that showed nothing but Ed Parker self defense technique?

I never understood that, or why he'd share it as his art, which wasn't American Kempo.

Victor Smith

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:

There are subsets of Shotokan that teach very good old style karate, but most of it is just for prestige and tournaments and for money-making, like most MAs. Nothing wrong with that if you are doing legit karate, but if what you do is pesudo-kickboxing with some dance skills thrown in then you're doing what Sokon Matsumura warned against in the 18800's: Budo of the Nominals. If all that you do is based on theory with no real practice of the essence of tode, then you're practicing Bujutsu of Intelligence- it lacks a concrete feel.[/QUOTE]

I recently read the article by matsumura you are talking about:

[QUOTE]
The first method, or division, is more like a game of psychology and tactics. It actually has no practical application in fighting, but it is more like pretty dancing. It is quite superficial.

The second method is nothing more than physical exercises. Its only goal is to win. In this there is no virtue. The practitioners of this method are contentious. Many times they bring injury to others and to themselves. Very often they cause dishonor to come upon members of their family.

The third method, in contrast, is always performed with conviction. The practitioners of this third method gain a solemn enlightenment, free of strife and depravity. It promotes loyalty among family, friends and country. It also promotes a natural demeanor, which develops a gallant character.

If you have an unconquerable calmness, you can overcome the enemy without force, with the ferocity of a tiger and the swiftness of a bird.

Some traits of this third method:

(1) It prohibits intentional violence
(2) It rules the actions of the warrior
(3) It edifies
(4) It promotes virtue
(5) It promotes peace among the people
(6) It produces harmony in society
(7) It brings about prosperity

[/QUOTE]

Upon reading this I was struck by the impression that knowledge of an arts fighting methods and combative essence is the first level, Hard training towards those combative methods were the second, and the practice of an Art for the betterment of Character, building discipline determination and inner calm is the only true path.

This sounds to me remarkably like what Funakoshi was trying to achieve with his Karate.

[QUOTE]
So what proof do I have that Funakoshi was respected more for his status as a grade school teacher than that of a sensei? Well for one Motobu stated it several times throughout his life. I know they were commercial rivals to a degree, at least in Motobu's eyes, but Choki didn't act like that towards Mabuni Kenwa or any of the other more respected Okinawan Shinshii. To this day on Okinawa this sentiment is the same. They tend to think that Funakoshi just finished what Itosu had started. Itosu, Matsumura and Miyagi are thought of as Okinawa's greatest karate pioneers.

[/QUOTE]

I remember you before stating that Motobu was an "insolent cuss", whatever he was it is well documented that his main and only real concern with karate was for fighting. I Don't doubt that funakoshi altered the way he taught karate to minimise any martial aspect, especially after the war, so if his goal was a higher purpose, that stated by Matsumura above, then it is understandable that Motobu would not think much of him, and vice versa.

I agree Funakoshi was only expanding on Itosu's work, but It was he who Itosu chose to do this. That must say something about him, especially as (at least I've not heard this disputed anywhere) Itosu co-taught Funakoshi since he was a boy, and Azato had trained along side Itosu so even if their ability differed their knowledge must ahve been the same.

I remember reading one account by Funakoshi of the two maters being accosted by some 30 people. Itosu left most of his assailants unharmed, but Azato, Funakoshi's main teacher left most of his opponents with broken bones and serious injury. Itosu's technique may have required more skill (MAY!?!) but that leaves no doubt abut the effectivensee of Azato's art and consequently Funakoshi's. Assuming it's true!


[QUOTE]
I just don't like folks like Shonuff getting on here and making like they know what it's all about, when they don't even know what it is they're defining. I am a fair person. If he were to enter my dojo with the attitude that "I know what you do because I did an art that went through similar motions", I would have to ask him to leave. Conversely I would never walk into a JKA dojo and claim I know their MA better than they do. I would never walk into a JKA dojo to learn anything, because from what I've seen it is Hope Ryu. I'm pretty sure that it is nothing like Gichin intended.
[/QUOTE]

I've never stated I know what it's all about. I've never said I know anyones art better than they do or implied anything of the sort. All I've said is I'm tired of looking at paragraphs and paragraphs of "my style is better than your style" without a single word as to what it is about your style thats so different and so great. The whole reason I'm on this site is to learn about what others do, you dont say what you do, you say what others do and that its rubbish. fine its an opinon, but support it with something, dont expect me to take your word for it.

[QUOTE]
"I don't think that these guys even know what you're saying. They've never trained with the proper structural ki or techniques"

"One typical example I like to use when comparing Shotokan and good Shorin is the fact that they are reverse tech happy:"

"They like forward and back, even if they claim otherwise. That shows their affinity for kumite tricks, not real fighting techs."
[/QUOTE]

In the above three quotes you've done exactly what you accused me of. You've looked at a style you dont train and claimed you know what its all about, that you know it better than those who practice it.

Incidentally I'm not a fan of JKA Shotokan, Its not how I was trained. I take notes on how and why they do things, but I look at all sources and make my own decisions. It sounds like your beef is with JKA, but you lump us all together and say what we do is useless. I agree that it almost certainly isn't what Funakoshi intended, but he happily stated that arts change, that his karate then was not as he did it in Okinawa and that he did not expect it to stay the same in the future. You are probably right and the purest original form of Karate is probably Matsumura Seito, but do we really need to hear that again and again? Its like you post that expecting the rest of us to run and sit at your feet and beg for more pearls of wisdom. From me at least that wont happen, share freely or not at all. If I've mis-interpreted your actions I'm sorry, but if a message is not clear change the method of delivery not the ear that hears it.

[QUOTE]
I like what you write Mark, and the fact that you want to know more. As for more detail, c'mon now! You gotta pay (sweat, time and a small amount of $$$) to know the secrets in full detail, hahahaha! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] I think I've given you guys enough to know I'm not faking it. [/QUOTE]

Again is that the only reason to post? To show of your knowledge? Becuase if I was guessing at it before that last line I'd hold up in court as evidence. Please correct me if I'm wrong, like I said I'm here to learn.

Peace.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Naihanchi: my hips move ALL of the time, I learned this from a Kofukan (Shito Ryu sect) practitioner when I was a 2nd Kyu! It's got a flow man, Naihanchi Sandan is alll about linking wrsitlocks into takedowns, and successive PP tech! I do whip my kicks, use all striking surfaces and it was you who convnced me to stop chambering! (Except as a balance drill, my balance is terrible, even for someone who ahs been doing MA's for 11 years).
[/QUOTE]

When I learned Naihanchi/tekki it was done with hip action, but I'm swaying back and forth between this method and the White Crane method of locking the hips and generating power with the waist. I notice some Karate styles use the chinese horse stance, i.e. the feet are shoulder width apart and the toes are pointed inwards. I know Choki Motobu thought this was impractical, and evidently azato did to as it is attributed to Itosu and someone else, but funakoshi never taught it this way. In White Crane this stance serves to lock the hips in place to better apply the waist to techniques, I was wondering what you guys feel about this?

The whipping kick thing is another White crane method, the more I learn about Okinawan Karate the more I see White cranes influence.

The joint locking etc you see in Naihanchi Sandan, is it similar to Elmar Schmiessers interpretation? I wasn't too impressed with his methods as I found that much of it was overcomplicated and impracticle (just my opinion), in my own analysis most of thelocking methods are aplied to elbow and shoulder joints for greater control, though I would be interested in comparring notes on this form.

My dojo's bunkai for Nahanchi/Tekki (what the BB's have contributed over the years) is very good for 1 and 3, but only ordinary for most of II.

Do you know what an "S-lock" is? "V-lock"?

If you want to, I will go into detail in another post. Yes, there are neck throws as MV mentions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:
My dojo's bunkai for Nahanchi/Tekki (what the BB's have contributed over the years) is very good for 1 and 3, but only ordinary for most of II.

Do you know what an "S-lock" is? "V-lock"?

If you want to, I will go into detail in another post. Yes, there are neck throws as MV mentions.[/QUOTE]

If I do I dont know them by those names, I would like to hear more if your willing to type it.

From my side I'v worked out a complete fighting system based on the Tekk series, the first form imparts the key strategies and concepts for self defence and fighting using the system, while II and III expand on I with techniques and strategies implied but not explicit in the form.

The second form teaches counter techniques to the first form and some emergency techniques. The third form is based more in duelling, dealing with controlled techniques and combination attacks and how to force openings against a skilled fighter.

Very interesting.

I will open up a thread in a couple of days, and I invite you to showcase your ideas after I do....I think some of the others will get bitten by the bug and have something to say, despite how uninteresting it may look now....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
Oh yeah. Wankan. It's not in Shorinkan or Orthodox Shorin. I did do Matsubayashi for a year too and I learned it then. I think it's a good form. I wonder if Nagamine picked it up while he was stationed in Taiwan, because it looks like a rigid Shouting Crane form I've seen before.[/QUOTE]

Nagamine learned Wankan from Iha Kodatsu, a top student of Kosaku Matsumora, from whom he also learned Rohai, Wanshu, Passai, and Chinto. Just thought you guys might want to know. These kata are core to Tomari "style" karate. They all contain unique striking/grappling aspects which from what I have seen are unique to Tomari "style" karate.