Seisan
Posted by: Anonymous
Seisan - 08/13/04 04:11 AM
Seisan = 13.
It's a bit odd that it's this number.
All other kata with 'number' names are all multiples of three :
seipai = 18
niseishi = 24
sanseiru = 36
useishi = 54
suparinpei (pechurin) = 108
Does anybody know why Seisan does not fit in ?
Posted by: Wado-AJ
Re: Seisan - 08/13/04 01:56 PM
13 is about 13 ronin. (samurai without master) they all had special powers. everyone had there speciality. All these are combined in seishan. (speed, rythem, power etc etc..) thats why, according to history i learned from: H. Fukazawa of Wado ryu fame.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Seisan - 08/13/04 02:13 PM
AJ
But Seisan as a kata name is both much older than Wado ryu
And not of Japanese origin, its Okinawan.
The Okinawans got it from China.
Neither the Okinawans or the Chinese had a "samurai" class.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/13/04 05:15 PM
[The oklinawans called their Seisan Katas SanChin, Seisan is definitely a Japanese word.
I'm sorry that's the wrong answer.
Actually Seisan is one of the oldest Okinawan Kata (Bushi Matsumura had a version and there is record of it being demonstrated in the mid 1800's).
Seisan being the number 13 is one of the many questions about its origin. That there may be Chinese origins because Chinese systems often used numbers for their form names is a possibility, but not proof, for there had long been a Chinese community on Okinawa.
Origin questions aside Seisan is one of the true universal Okinawan forms, variations of it found in many Okinawan instrutors systems.
From Bushi Matsumura:
In Matsumura lineage his student Itosu had Seisan
Itosu's student Mabuni had Seisan (Shito Ryu)
Itosu's student Funakoshi had Sesan and changed it to Hangetsu in his Shotokan system.
In Matsumura lineage his student Kiyan had Seisan, and derivative systems like Isshinryu also kept Seisan. [Side note, Nagamine with previous trianing did not study Seisan with Kiyan and his Matsubayshi Ryu doesn't have Seisan either.]
There is a Tomari version of Seisan.
Gojuryu has their own version of Seisan.
Ueichiryu has thier own version of Seisan.
The Goju and Ueichi systems cite their Chinese origins for their Seisan.
But if you really look at all the Seisan variations side by side, there is a certain universality, a true underlying Seisan-ness that seems to indicate a more common predecessor (regardless of source of Origin).
Depending on where you train Seisan is a beginning form (Isshinryu) or a very advanced form (Goju-ryu). On the whole I think most groups treat it as a senior form, where in the Kiyan lineage it is often more a beginning effort.
BTW, in my opinion, form differences aside, all of the versions take real work to do correctly.
Pleasantly,
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
Posted by: Wado-AJ
Re: Seisan - 08/14/04 11:39 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
AJ
But Seisan as a kata name is both much older than Wado ryu
And not of Japanese origin, its Okinawan.
The Okinawans got it from China.
Neither the Okinawans or the Chinese had a "samurai" class.[/QUOTE]
hmmm, I never said that its from japanese origin..? I speak about samurai and all of the sudden you refer to other situations. Probably a misunderstanding. 13 in japanese is jyu-san. so off course not a japanese word. the history i wrote down is just what i know via Fukazawa, like I said in my first reply! not my idea. maybe in china or okinawa they referred to soldiers.. we will probably never know..
[This message has been edited by Wado-AJ (edited 08-14-2004).]
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: Seisan - 08/14/04 01:39 PM
I've been told the "sei" part of seisan is Chinese. Also that you fight 13 opponents, although doing so in all directions is not recommended!
Sensei Smith, you mentioned the amount of work needed to perform this kata correctly, and personally I feel I learned most about this kata after nidan, but could you expound on your reasons for this opinion?
The reason for my opinion, simply experience.
As I've experienced it takes about 10 years of work to begin to sufficently relax in technique performance. When the body has truly learnt the lessons involved, the parts work together more efficiently, the center of gravity drops and power potential increases.
Accompany that with experience fitting a technique into ranges of attacks and tapping the energy of the kata in the application.
There is not short cut for ability, and each will rise to their pesonal levels after all.
You can take a beginner and put them between two good more experienced students and the beginner will demonstrate immediate improvement. They're borrowing energy from the others, and have less pressure because they don't feel people are looking at them. But when you then put them out in front alone they revert to beginner ability. That which can be borrowed leaves.
Likewise without true skill and knowledge, much of a kata's technique cannot be used. You can show it but if the person can't truly live it, it won't work.
I personally believe this is why much of karate's potential wasn't taught. Not that it doesn't exist, but the answers were too complex for the levels of the student to actually do. So rather than give them what they can't do, they focused on what they could to instead.
Karate can be effective at many levels, and not being ready for much of its application potential doesn't mean the student is being short changed.
Actually karate isn't needed in today's world for self defense, very often. It wasn't needed on Okinawa any more frequently. And those instances where it is needed frequently , well they describe a far different instruction set than the original training, IMVHO.
But the highly skilled application potential requires advanced skill development even to perform the most simple techniques.
Hope this helps a little,
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
BTW I don't use handles, I'm a real person, proud to exist and share the little I know.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Seisan - 08/15/04 01:47 PM
Wado AJ
No, no misunderstanding.
You recounted a story of where the name for Seisan kata comes from.
I gave you a thumbnail verson as to why your explanation was very likly bogus and you don't get it?
Sorry.
In reading back thu your first post, couple of things stand out.
1st Its highly unlikly that ANY Wado-ryu teacher (esp a Japanese whom presumably would know better) would tell you a story about Seisan coming from
"13 ronin....they all had special powers, everyone had a speciality, all these are combined in seishan"
See, thats a real reach, given that it simply does not jive with the known and documented history of the kata.
Possibly someone was pulling your leg?
2nd, I assume that you mean Seisan not, as you put it "Seishan" because that would be a kata I have never heard of--perhaps this is where we got off on the wrong track?
Presume you speak French Wado AJ as Fukazawa sensei has little or no English (he used French or Japanese through an interpreter when I've trained with him at any rate).
He is a demon with applicaations for kata...does some really amazing things but he's never been given to stories of that type then again I've only trained with him and Suzuki sensei a few times so I may be the wrong person to ask.
As for Seishan, I always believed it to be Okinawan in orgin and not linked to stories or ronin samurai. As said in other post , variants of it appear in many styles.
Ken
Posted by: Wado-AJ
Re: Seisan - 08/17/04 11:47 AM
ok, before this reply i checked all my sources. I have a dvd of fukazawa, is points to: 13 RONAINS, (horseman from china) so i've got to do better homework [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] but anyway. still the same story that i mentioned above. i read also that 13 represents the natures force: wind, earth etc etc.. let me clear up, that it is not what I think, it is what is presented on the DVD of Fukazawa.
All other sources of great masters that i have don't contain any information on the history of the kata what so ever. They only speak of the kata, fast slow etc..
Like I said, this is not my knowlegde, i just write down what i read.
Posted by: Wado-AJ
Re: Seisan - 08/17/04 11:53 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ken harding:
Presume you speak French Wado AJ as Fukazawa sensei has little or no English.
..
Ken[/QUOTE]
Ken, i never said I spoke to him. Has seen him on seminars (i'm dutch) with ishikawa and suzuki sensei, but never spoke to him, as my french sucks.. Anyway, i never said i spoke with him only: learned from. I meant a DVD, it is his knowlegde on the DVD afterall. Perhaps i should have used other words to explain [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
sorry for the misunderstanding.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/18/04 05:20 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ironfoot:
I've been told the "sei" part of seisan is Chinese. Also that you fight 13 opponents, although doing so in all directions is not recommended!
Is it the same sei as kata seipai? My other question is why do okinawan styles call seishan dachi sanchindachi?
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/18/04 05:37 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Victor Smith:
I'm sorry that's the wrong answer.
Actually Seisan is one of the oldest Okinawan Kata (Bushi Matsumura had a version and there is record of it being demonstrated in the mid 1800's).
I may be wrong about sanchin being the same kata but the chinese characters for seishan which I don't know how to make with muy computer are divided into a kanji pronounced sei in japanese and a kanji pronounced san in Japanese, according to my Kanji to Japanese dictionary that means three fronts or three movements. Seisan is divided into sets of 3 movements think about it three blocks and punches, start it then look at how the entire kata is a 3 times repetition of the same technique. So it may be an okinawan kata but Japan was under the lord of Satsuma in the 1800s and it is definitely a japanese pronounciation of the chinese characters used to write it. It is hard to mistake the kanji for 3 and the kanji pronounciation for front or movement, it is definitely a Japanese word.
The numbers seen in Okinawan kata, which is what Seisan is- not JAPANESE, usually represent some significant Buddhist principle or value. They can also refer to the number of techs inherent to the kata, which is what "13" probaly means in this case: the # of techs or SD answers.
The Seisan of Orthodox Shorin Ryu, where Ohtsuka got his Seishan kata, is a Shodan level kata that is more advanced than the Isshin Ryu version which is a beginner form. I has nothing to do with any Ronin or Satsuma Clan cats. That's Japanese elitist BS---- AGAIN!!!
Posted by: Wado-AJ
Re: Seisan - 08/19/04 01:30 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WADO:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ironfoot:
My other question is why do okinawan styles call seishan dachi sanchindachi?[/QUOTE]
Sanchindachi is different from seishan dachi. Sanchin is very small and seishan is wider. in essence, i think (never practised sachindachi) they are the same. feet pointed to the inside, knee pushed to the outside. the heel of the front foot against the same line as the toes of the back foot. sanchindachi is small. seishan dachi is wide.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/19/04 10:20 AM
I'm not saying the katas aren't Chinese seisan and sanchin both have definite southern not northern Chinese influence, I'm just arguing that the pronounciation for seisan is Japanese. If the same chinese characters are pronounced using a common southern Chinese dialect, which happens to be the only one in my dictionary the Chinese characters for seisan would be pronounced something like xanshi. The kata is obdviously Chinese and Okinawan but the word is obdviously Japanese.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/19/04 10:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:
The numbers seen in Okinawan kata, which is what Seisan is- not JAPANESE, usually represent some significant Buddhist principle or value. They can also refer to the number of techs inherent to the kata, which is what "13" probaly means in this case: the # of techs or SD answers.
The Seisan of Orthodox Shorin Ryu, where Ohtsuka got his Seishan kata, is a Shodan level kata that is more advanced than the Isshin Ryu version which is a beginner form. I has nothing to do with any Ronin or Satsuma Clan cats. That's Japanese elitist BS---- AGAIN!!![/QUOTE]
Don't become an Okinawan elitist, the katas are obdviously Chinese look up the characters for the kata and see for yourself the CHINESE CHARACTERS where do you get seisan to mean 13. The Chinese characters I see still can only translete to 3 fronts or 3 movements, think about it it is a kata where various techniques are performed 3 times.
Hi,
I’ve been following this thread with curiosity and I thought I throw in my 2 cents’ worth:-
13 is:-
• Jyu San in Japanese
• Shr San in Mandarin
• Chaap Sar in Fukien
• Sup San in Cantonese
• Saik San in Fuzhou
Chinese forms with the #13:-
• Shr San Tai Bao or 13 defenders/lords found in Fukien White Crane.
• Saik San Chew or 13 breaking hands. A Fuzhou White Crane forms teaching 13 “breaking bridge” methods.
• Saik San SanJin or 13 Sanchin. This is Sanchin (3 battles) form done with Chinese character “10” stepping footwork. This name has since been shortened to just Saik San.
However, all the above forms bear little semblance to the Karate kata SeiSan.
Like I said in some other forum, the number “13” is lucky to the Chinese. Particularly to the Cantonese.
“Sup San” also sounds like “certain to survive or flourish” in Cantonese.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/19/04 11:43 AM
That was really my point sanchin and seisan, are southern Chinese forms, but the pronounciation seisan is a Japanese pronounciation for a Chinese word. It is not Okinawan for number 13.
Oops!
[This message has been edited by Isshinryukid4life (edited 08-19-2004).]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:
Multiversed said
The Seisan of Orthodox Shorin Ryu, where Ohtsuka got his Seishan kata, is a Shodan level kata that is more advanced than the Isshin Ryu version which is a beginner form. I has nothing to do with any Ronin or Satsuma Clan cats. That's Japanese elitist BS---- AGAIN!!![/QUOTE]
Multiversed/Dr. K I respectfully disagree, The Isshinryu Seisan is a BB kata.& although it's a BB kata,To the new student its used as a begining kata. Also the new student/w blt will have to learn some of the basic stances, Such as Seisan,Seiuchin,& T stance As well as the Isshinryu fist. So,As it might be a BB kata, All of the basics are there,even for the beginner.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/19/04 05:07 PM
Do we all agree that they were originally Southern Chinese forms or derived from Southern Chinese forms or is that question still up for debate? I think in Wado Seisan and Naihanchi are the only two Katas aside from Pinan that we train in from white belt foreward, as those katas are supposed to contain most of the stances and body movements of our style.
[This message has been edited by WADO (edited 08-19-2004).]
One of the older approaches to Okinawan training was to begin students in Seisan Kata.
That tradition began long before the Pinan kata were created. Other tradition was to begin students in the Nihanchi kata.
Isshinryu's founder began training when he was very young in the early 1900's. I have always felt his use of Seisan probably related to the way he was originally trained.
That does not make Seisan (or Nihanchi for that matter) a beginning kata. It's just a different traditional method to begin training.
In my experience it takes maybe 10 years of hard work before you begin to get it and relax, allow your center to drop and your power to increase. At that stage you can begin to sell your technique more crisply.
Remember karate didn't develop to train people quickly. Each system and system follower believes in the truth of their own way as the best. Each system doing Seisan is sure their path is the only true way.
Well there are many true ways and with work all of them can work.
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
Hi Wado,
You sound pretty certain that Seisan is a Southern King Fu derivation. I am just wondering which style Kung Fu you are alluding to or which Kung Fu form?
I am researching Southern Kung Fu especially Fukien streams and this includes spin offs outside China.
For example, I am currently working with some Indonesian Bangau Putih teachers who believe that this is a combo of Fukien White Crane and indigenous Silat.
Bangau Putih is Bahasa (Malay/Indonesian) for White Crane.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/20/04 10:19 AM
Sociologially it was definitely developed in a marshland area, ther3e really aren't any marshes in Okinawa the closest marshes to Okinawa are in southern China. I didn't say Kung fu necessarily but it would follow also the ancient chinese saying Northern foot southern fist.
I must have misinterpreted your post.
You are right – in Kung Fu there is this popular “Northern Leg Southern Fist” saying. And it is true to a large degree. Most Northern style Kung Fu place heavier emphasis on kicking and big movements’ footwork. Southern styles tend to develop close quarters hand techniques more.
Another familiar saying testifying to this is “Northern Kung Fu – one stance one technique and Southern Kung Fu – one stance many techniques”.
I am not too sure about marshland though. However, many Southern stylists historically were folks involved in traveling Chinese operas. And their mode of traveling is by boats. To practice Kung Fu under this condition, you have to keep your movements smaller.
I would love to hear from anyone with info on Seisan Chinese origin – if this is the case.
I’ve seen many versions of Seisan and there is one (with SanChin stance) that reminds me of Fukien White Crane.
Posted by: WADO
Re: Seisan - 08/20/04 12:42 PM
Well northern China is cold with hard ground, making kicking styles work better, hard ground+bulky coat encourages kicking, southern China is largely wet rice fields, marshland, encouraging less foot movement and more hand techniques, also in Okinawa where there is little marshland Sanchin and Seisan are commonly practiced knee deep in water, that would also indicate that they came from a wetland area.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Seisan - 08/21/04 03:49 PM
Most of the controversy over kata names comes from the fact that their names were not recorded using Chinese characters (or the Japanese kanji, same thing). They were merely written out in script. Therefore, it is almost impossible to know exactly what the names mean, as seisan could mean celbrant (as in minister), calculation, gruesomeness, confidence, liquidation, banquet,production, ghostliness or hydrocyanic acid...
I'm not saying these are alternate meanings, but that it just goes to show you how many words can sound the same but since they were never recorded with the characters, you don't actually know. The assignment of names is often figurative and even back in the older times, they relationships between the names and the movements were sometimes fuzzy.
Some name assignations are more obvious like Rohai (white heron), but you always hear a million stories about why a kata is named after a number (Gojuushiho is the 54 steps of the black tiger for example)...
This wasn't so much directed at seisan specifically as just kata names in general...Bottom line: I tend to take the names with a grain of salt.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Seisan - 08/30/04 09:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WADO:
[The oklinawans called their Seisan Katas SanChin, Seisan is definitely a Japanese word.[/QUOTE]
i think that i read in one of funakoshi sensei's books he talks about how when he took karate from okinawa to japan he changed the kata names to sound more japanese, but anyway, we are taught that seisan means 13 hands
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Seisan - 09/01/04 04:56 PM
The best explanation I heard up till now is 13 being a lucky number for the chinese. Maybe somebody considered this form as his best or most favourable form and called it 13 indicating it was his 'lucky' form.
I think it is imported to track the history.
Because the kata is found back in all 3 major okinawan systems it is considered to be a very old kata.
I only know a bit about the naha-te line.
4 ryu-ha : goju-ryu
toon-ryu
uechi-ryu
ruei-ryu
goju and toon have the same 'root', Higashionna.
Higashionna and Norisato (ruei-ryu) have the same root, Ru Ru Ko and also Aragaki who is known for a demonstration of seisan around 1870.
Uechi got his seisan from Shushabu and Shushiwa (Shaolin monks) 1897 - 1907.
All of these masters are related to Hakutsuru (White Crane).
Maybe the kata originated from before the 'white crane' evolution in karate. Many 'white crane' related issues evolve around numbers that are multiples of 3 (at least when considering the Bubishi as most imported source of filosofy).
This means that seisan has nothing to do with the number 3 because it originated from before this filosofy.
Could seisan be traced back to five ancestor style or Fukien monk fist boxing ?
Foochow crane, do you have any traces of a quan called seisan and his history ?
CVV said
Maybe the kata originated from before the 'white crane' evolution in karate. Many 'white crane' related issues evolve around numbers that are multiples of 3 (at least when considering the Bubishi as most imported source of filosofy).
This means that seisan has nothing to do with the number 3 because it originated from before this filosofy.
Could seisan be traced back to five ancestor style or Fukien monk fist boxing ?
Foochow crane, do you have any traces of a quan called seisan and his history ? [/QUOTE]
CVV, Don't take this the wrong way,But you're adding theory upon theory,& All that'll do is make it all the more confusing.I'm sorry to say, that know one really knows where the Seisan kata originated, & As far as i'm concerned it does'nt really matter.
On the other hand,Although i don't believe the seisan kata originated from china, I do believe seisan had more of taoist influence which is evident in from the fluidity in the secod part of seisan.
However, The answers of seisans origin is'nt important, as much as the applications from the kata itself.
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]
[This message has been edited by Isshinryukid4life (edited 09-04-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Seisan - 09/16/04 11:05 PM
Funny thing is that Sanchin and seisan kata are completely different. Haven't practiced Goju for many years but, Sanchin kata was I believe a green belt kata for focus and breathing techniques, Seisan was a black belt kata for fighting multiple opponents.
When I was 14 or so I studied White Crane, forgive me but I see no resemblance to the Japapese kata to the White Crane forms. As I remember Sanchin translated was the "three opponents". Or something like that.
Posted by: Akiba
Re: Seisan - 09/18/04 11:57 AM
Cvv I've waiting for you to mail me regarding kata and numbers. I've even been working on this seisan.
Akiba108@yahoo.co.uk
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: Seisan - 09/20/04 03:16 PM
Wado-AJ, you are correct that sanchin is "smaller", but along with the width of the stance, there's the fact that the back foot is only a half-foot behind the front one, not an entire foot.
And kas888, sanchin means "three conflicts". These are the battle to overcome physical, mental and spiritual (or breathing) limitations.
Posted by: cxt
Re: Seisan - 09/20/04 04:31 PM
IronFoot
One of the things I find so cool about kata and the various incarnations of the same kata in different "styles" and different dojo of the same style is things like you mentioned.
The "exact" foot placement on a "proper" sanchin stance. Seems to vary.
At least it did in the "old days."
When the foot placement seems to have less structured.
Up to and including what I seem to recall as being different lengths for folks of different heights.
I was taught the same as you--"the foot should be a half a foot behind the front"
(foot being a a real "foot" not a unit of measure equal to 12 inches)
Posted by: nenipp
Re: Seisan - 09/26/04 03:29 PM
Speaking of Seisan and the number thirteen; how many techniques/movements do you count in the kata?
I only count ten or eleven..
Posted by: Ironfoot
Re: Seisan - 09/30/04 12:39 PM
Well, I see 9 of Isshinryu's 15 upper-body basic exercises and 2 of the 8 or 9 basic kicks. However, the term "techniques" is hard to define. If we're talking about just blocks that aren't basic, I can immediately count 8 more. Then there are grappling techniques...