Posted by: kakushiite
Trying to understand Kata/Forms - 07/29/04 07:35 PM
Under this thread name, Matt Keller posted the following on the Martial Arts Talk Forum. I thought it best to post my reply here (see below):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hello,
my respects to all martial artists.
I have recently come to realize the potential of this website for my own training. Whilst I might not agree with everything that is said in this forum it inspires me to new heights. It seems that there is a very wide range of views here and
I find this simulating. Anyway I have a question for consideration.
My experience suggests that the techniques recorded in kata/forms are not particularly useful when it comes to “reality” training. Whilst it is possible for me (and many others) to envisage a vast number of applications for them, I usually find it impossible to put them into action against an unwilling opponent. The exceptions to this, I find, occur once the application has deviated sufficiently from the movement of the form/kata as to make it unbelievable that this was the originally intended application. Actually there are a few exceptions but they are few and far between considering the vast array of techniques that seem to be contained within kata/forms.
I have attempted to follow the latest popular theories concerning kata application but have always been disappointed by either their lack of effectiveness against an unwilling opponent or their lack of similarity to the original kata/forms movements which they are attempting to explain.
This leaves me with a number of possibilities.
1. Kata/form techniques were not created for the purpose of fighting.
2. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but were deliberately changed to hide their application.
3. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but by people inexperienced in fighting.
4. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but over time became corrupt due to a lack of understanding.
5. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but over time were deliberately watered down in order to teach to the next generation.
6. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting and have not been changed over time or their meaning hidden but I lack a good understanding.
Obviously I have been pursuing option 6 for a long time now, but so far I have failed to understand the majority of kata/form techniques. This has led me to consider options 1-5. Does this seem reasonable?
Perhaps there are other options? Which option would you take?
Your feed back ought to help me determine which direction to take my training in.
Many thanks
Matt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt,
Good post. Lot's of useful questions.
No surprises for those who have read my other posts. This one is another long one.
I can’t speak for all forms and kata, but I have studied a variety of Okinawan kata.
Anything we say about them is pure guesswork. They don’t come with a manual from the authors. It is likely that at least some movements/combinations go back hundreds of years and that the kata themselves are blends of ideas from many, many sources.
But we can analyze the movements to understand some basic principles. For example, many kata have a variety of turns and forward movements. Among other things, these train the student in good body mechanics. Fast, powerful blocks, strikes, locks, throws (and many, but not all kicks) are dependent upon good body mechanics to leverage body mass. Turns and forward movements teach those mechanics.
Some techniques were probably designed for a single use, but many are multipurpose. In general, the more uses you can get out of a series of movements, the less specific you should expect these to be, since the movements are blending together a variety of fighting techniques and concepts.
For example, I have a variety of applications for the shutos (side to side/corner) found in Kusanku/Pinan Shodan (Kanku Dai/Heian Nidan)
Against a left strike, the movements of my two shutos to the left so closely follow the kata, it would be difficult for a non-practicioner to see any difference. (My combination also uses a follow-up of the shutos to the right. Although the hand movements differ, the leg movements and body pivot is identical to the kata.)
Against a right strike, the similarity is less apparent. I blend the initial shutos to achieve a simultaneous block/counter-strike. The follow up (second two shutos to the right) also differs from the actual kata movements by blending in other ideas in the kata.
But what is most important is that throughout, I follow the body mechanics mapped out in the kata. In this case it is body rotations to the left then right, each including a step forward midway in the turn.
Some combinations make use of the next movement, a turn back to the left.
As I noted above, leveraging your mass comes from turns and forward movements, which here are combined.
You have a valid issue that many combinations don’t really work well against a non-compliant attacker, and this is especially true against bigger, stronger attackers, something quite likely in a real life encounter. In many cases, this is because so many combinations have locking and throwing techniques. We should expect non-compliant attackers generally don’t let you do these techniques. They prevent you from doing so in a variety of ways, such smashing you in the head as you attempt to grab, lock or throw them.
But this does not mean these techniques don’t work. It’s just that you have a prerequisite. You have to temporarily (say half a second to a little more than a second) get your aggressive attacker to be compliant, momentarily compliant. And that, to me, is how kata provides comprehensive combinations.
In order to set up many grappling techniques, you need to effectively disorient, weaken, or unbalance the attacker. You do that with kicks to the groin and knees, and fists/palmheels/elbows to the nose, eyes, neck, throat and chin. (One option for the chin strike is to from the side causing the head to spin.)
If these initial “set up” counter attacks are not successful, then you wont' get the opening you need to follow up with locks and throws. But if you do get momentary disorientation or unbalancing, you will have created the openings so you can continue with grappling techniques.
The question about compliant attackers seems to me like a question as to why you can’t checkmate a person in a move or two. Setting up checkmate against a non-compliant chess partner requires many, many moves. He doesn’t let you in. He is busy attacking, counterattacking and blocking. You have to break your way in by carefully and relentlessly smashing through his defenses to set up the final finishing technique.
You have correctly identified the problem regarding non-compliance in training. In the dojo, you really can’t utilize effective setup techniques. (At least not in any I have trained in.) I would be surprised if you could keep many students if you let them hit each other full power in the nose or throat, stab each other in the eyes, stomp on each other's knees or kick each other in the groin.
But it’s not just the setups you can’t do full power in the dojo. You really can’t do many of the follow-up grappling techniques all that aggressively either. If you use your full mass in a lock against someone who isn’t all that compliant, he just might wind up with a badly damaged joint. That is why in Aikido attackers typically jump into a roll when the lock is executed. The alternative is an elbow, wrist or shoulder injury that can take a long time to heal. (Months for younger students, and sometimes years for older ones.) It looks phony to those untrained in the grappling arts, but it is the only way to keep training.
You are also correct to note that kata, by itself, doesn't give you all the tools you need to build effective self defense skills. Kata practice, by itself, just doesn't cut it in my book.
I like to think that on the journey of good self-defense, kata serves mostly as the roadmap, but you need a vehicle and a driver.
For me, practicing in the air is just one leg of a multi-legged stool needed for developing good fighting skills. You also need lots of pad/bag work to get the counter kicks and strikes fast and powerful. You also need tons of repetitions with partners to hone the grappling components. And finally, you need strengthening exercises (weights, etc.) to make all your techniques stronger. But practicing in the air is a great complement to bag/partner/conditioning work.
I recommend an alternative to doing complete kata, which I do sparingly. Instead, I recommend that students focus more on repetitions of specific series of movements, those that make up complete applications. This breakout of patterns should be practiced both as the movements appear in kata, and equally important, as they appear in specific applications.
The reason for this breakout is to increase the repetitions of good fighting patterns. The various combinations I have that come from the four shuto movements described above can be done very quickly. Typically 3-4 seconds. In 15 minutes, that results in around 200 reps.
If a student were to do this five days a week for a year, he would complete over 50,000 reps. I think all would agreed that with that kind of repetition, the combinations from this pattern would be deeply imbedded in his psyche, ready to explode upon an attack.
And this is done in some arts. I would be surprised if a boxer training several hours per week didn't practice the left jab/right cross combination close to 50,000 times in a year. They do it on the heavy bag, the speed bag, shadow boxing, drilling, and in the ring. This basic unit of boxing becomes part of them, unconscious, completely reactionary. They don't have to think to execute, the movements are reactive.
This kind of concentration on specific combinations helps make the movements not just reactive, but precise, and very fast which is a key component of power. And the accurate targeting of power is what is needed to quickly gain compliance from large aggressive attackers. This opens up the rapid follow-up of effective grappling movements, just as the boxer may have trained to follow up the jab/cross with a left hook. The three strikes come together as a seamless whole.
This is not to criticize the practice of kata, just as it is presented to us, one combination after another. But to get really good at fighting combinations, it is my belief that it is best to break the movements/combinations out and practice them as though they were their own standalone mini-kata. Once you get really good at the combinations, then focusing on the practice of the whole kata makes more sense to me.
I do recognize that most students of the art are constrained to do what is done in the dojo they train in. And it is uncommon in many for significant repetition of specific kata movements. Many would argue that there are just too many other important things to be practicing during training.
This concept of massive repetition (air, bag, partners) is just one of many ideas on how to get good at fighting while maintaining some faithfulness to the traditions of the art (kata). But it works.
[This message has been edited by kakushiite (edited 07-29-2004).]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hello,
my respects to all martial artists.
I have recently come to realize the potential of this website for my own training. Whilst I might not agree with everything that is said in this forum it inspires me to new heights. It seems that there is a very wide range of views here and
I find this simulating. Anyway I have a question for consideration.
My experience suggests that the techniques recorded in kata/forms are not particularly useful when it comes to “reality” training. Whilst it is possible for me (and many others) to envisage a vast number of applications for them, I usually find it impossible to put them into action against an unwilling opponent. The exceptions to this, I find, occur once the application has deviated sufficiently from the movement of the form/kata as to make it unbelievable that this was the originally intended application. Actually there are a few exceptions but they are few and far between considering the vast array of techniques that seem to be contained within kata/forms.
I have attempted to follow the latest popular theories concerning kata application but have always been disappointed by either their lack of effectiveness against an unwilling opponent or their lack of similarity to the original kata/forms movements which they are attempting to explain.
This leaves me with a number of possibilities.
1. Kata/form techniques were not created for the purpose of fighting.
2. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but were deliberately changed to hide their application.
3. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but by people inexperienced in fighting.
4. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but over time became corrupt due to a lack of understanding.
5. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting but over time were deliberately watered down in order to teach to the next generation.
6. Kata/form techniques were created for the purpose of fighting and have not been changed over time or their meaning hidden but I lack a good understanding.
Obviously I have been pursuing option 6 for a long time now, but so far I have failed to understand the majority of kata/form techniques. This has led me to consider options 1-5. Does this seem reasonable?
Perhaps there are other options? Which option would you take?
Your feed back ought to help me determine which direction to take my training in.
Many thanks
Matt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt,
Good post. Lot's of useful questions.
No surprises for those who have read my other posts. This one is another long one.
I can’t speak for all forms and kata, but I have studied a variety of Okinawan kata.
Anything we say about them is pure guesswork. They don’t come with a manual from the authors. It is likely that at least some movements/combinations go back hundreds of years and that the kata themselves are blends of ideas from many, many sources.
But we can analyze the movements to understand some basic principles. For example, many kata have a variety of turns and forward movements. Among other things, these train the student in good body mechanics. Fast, powerful blocks, strikes, locks, throws (and many, but not all kicks) are dependent upon good body mechanics to leverage body mass. Turns and forward movements teach those mechanics.
Some techniques were probably designed for a single use, but many are multipurpose. In general, the more uses you can get out of a series of movements, the less specific you should expect these to be, since the movements are blending together a variety of fighting techniques and concepts.
For example, I have a variety of applications for the shutos (side to side/corner) found in Kusanku/Pinan Shodan (Kanku Dai/Heian Nidan)
Against a left strike, the movements of my two shutos to the left so closely follow the kata, it would be difficult for a non-practicioner to see any difference. (My combination also uses a follow-up of the shutos to the right. Although the hand movements differ, the leg movements and body pivot is identical to the kata.)
Against a right strike, the similarity is less apparent. I blend the initial shutos to achieve a simultaneous block/counter-strike. The follow up (second two shutos to the right) also differs from the actual kata movements by blending in other ideas in the kata.
But what is most important is that throughout, I follow the body mechanics mapped out in the kata. In this case it is body rotations to the left then right, each including a step forward midway in the turn.
Some combinations make use of the next movement, a turn back to the left.
As I noted above, leveraging your mass comes from turns and forward movements, which here are combined.
You have a valid issue that many combinations don’t really work well against a non-compliant attacker, and this is especially true against bigger, stronger attackers, something quite likely in a real life encounter. In many cases, this is because so many combinations have locking and throwing techniques. We should expect non-compliant attackers generally don’t let you do these techniques. They prevent you from doing so in a variety of ways, such smashing you in the head as you attempt to grab, lock or throw them.
But this does not mean these techniques don’t work. It’s just that you have a prerequisite. You have to temporarily (say half a second to a little more than a second) get your aggressive attacker to be compliant, momentarily compliant. And that, to me, is how kata provides comprehensive combinations.
In order to set up many grappling techniques, you need to effectively disorient, weaken, or unbalance the attacker. You do that with kicks to the groin and knees, and fists/palmheels/elbows to the nose, eyes, neck, throat and chin. (One option for the chin strike is to from the side causing the head to spin.)
If these initial “set up” counter attacks are not successful, then you wont' get the opening you need to follow up with locks and throws. But if you do get momentary disorientation or unbalancing, you will have created the openings so you can continue with grappling techniques.
The question about compliant attackers seems to me like a question as to why you can’t checkmate a person in a move or two. Setting up checkmate against a non-compliant chess partner requires many, many moves. He doesn’t let you in. He is busy attacking, counterattacking and blocking. You have to break your way in by carefully and relentlessly smashing through his defenses to set up the final finishing technique.
You have correctly identified the problem regarding non-compliance in training. In the dojo, you really can’t utilize effective setup techniques. (At least not in any I have trained in.) I would be surprised if you could keep many students if you let them hit each other full power in the nose or throat, stab each other in the eyes, stomp on each other's knees or kick each other in the groin.
But it’s not just the setups you can’t do full power in the dojo. You really can’t do many of the follow-up grappling techniques all that aggressively either. If you use your full mass in a lock against someone who isn’t all that compliant, he just might wind up with a badly damaged joint. That is why in Aikido attackers typically jump into a roll when the lock is executed. The alternative is an elbow, wrist or shoulder injury that can take a long time to heal. (Months for younger students, and sometimes years for older ones.) It looks phony to those untrained in the grappling arts, but it is the only way to keep training.
You are also correct to note that kata, by itself, doesn't give you all the tools you need to build effective self defense skills. Kata practice, by itself, just doesn't cut it in my book.
I like to think that on the journey of good self-defense, kata serves mostly as the roadmap, but you need a vehicle and a driver.
For me, practicing in the air is just one leg of a multi-legged stool needed for developing good fighting skills. You also need lots of pad/bag work to get the counter kicks and strikes fast and powerful. You also need tons of repetitions with partners to hone the grappling components. And finally, you need strengthening exercises (weights, etc.) to make all your techniques stronger. But practicing in the air is a great complement to bag/partner/conditioning work.
I recommend an alternative to doing complete kata, which I do sparingly. Instead, I recommend that students focus more on repetitions of specific series of movements, those that make up complete applications. This breakout of patterns should be practiced both as the movements appear in kata, and equally important, as they appear in specific applications.
The reason for this breakout is to increase the repetitions of good fighting patterns. The various combinations I have that come from the four shuto movements described above can be done very quickly. Typically 3-4 seconds. In 15 minutes, that results in around 200 reps.
If a student were to do this five days a week for a year, he would complete over 50,000 reps. I think all would agreed that with that kind of repetition, the combinations from this pattern would be deeply imbedded in his psyche, ready to explode upon an attack.
And this is done in some arts. I would be surprised if a boxer training several hours per week didn't practice the left jab/right cross combination close to 50,000 times in a year. They do it on the heavy bag, the speed bag, shadow boxing, drilling, and in the ring. This basic unit of boxing becomes part of them, unconscious, completely reactionary. They don't have to think to execute, the movements are reactive.
This kind of concentration on specific combinations helps make the movements not just reactive, but precise, and very fast which is a key component of power. And the accurate targeting of power is what is needed to quickly gain compliance from large aggressive attackers. This opens up the rapid follow-up of effective grappling movements, just as the boxer may have trained to follow up the jab/cross with a left hook. The three strikes come together as a seamless whole.
This is not to criticize the practice of kata, just as it is presented to us, one combination after another. But to get really good at fighting combinations, it is my belief that it is best to break the movements/combinations out and practice them as though they were their own standalone mini-kata. Once you get really good at the combinations, then focusing on the practice of the whole kata makes more sense to me.
I do recognize that most students of the art are constrained to do what is done in the dojo they train in. And it is uncommon in many for significant repetition of specific kata movements. Many would argue that there are just too many other important things to be practicing during training.
This concept of massive repetition (air, bag, partners) is just one of many ideas on how to get good at fighting while maintaining some faithfulness to the traditions of the art (kata). But it works.
[This message has been edited by kakushiite (edited 07-29-2004).]