Why no Kata?????

OK I have said that Kata has no real use in a fight, and I got a lot of static for it. And thats OK, thats why the forums are here right???

With that said, This question goes to all you Kata "fans" out there.

If Kata is soooo important, why is'nt Kata in all forms of martial arts???

for example, Jujitsu has no katas, atleast the ones I know. Hapkido is another form that has no Katas. These are awsome Arts in thier own right, and the put out great "fighters". Are these Martial Artist less of fighter cause thier chossen style does not incoperate Katas???

Just a Question, Hopefully I don't make anyone upset

Brian

Firstly jujitsu does have kata, and so does judo and Aikido. So do kung fu, taekwondo and tang soo do(they call them forms).I don't know about hapkido.

Secondly whether a style has kata or not does not make it better/worse for fighting. Kata is one way of training, not the only way. Us that are "fans" advocate it for many reasons, those that aren't don't have to do it.

Thirdly, those arts that have kata/forms don't do these alone. They are combined with other training methods.

Fourthly and finally, yes the arts you mentioned do produce good fighter....and bad...and indifferent, just like the arts that DO use kata.

You certainly haven't upset me, as you say these forums are for discussing different veiwpoints. I would be intereste, though, to know why you are so anti-kata.
Sharon

Hi Sharon,

Its not that I am "anti" kata, I guess I just don't understand why some forms do and some forms don't have kata's or forms.

I study Okinawan Kenpo and Jujitsu, The style of JuJitsu that I study I Taki Aki Ryu.
And we do not have kata.

A friend of mine takes Hapkido, and They do not have forms either. Boxing is another form of Martial Art and again no forms. I get what you all are saying about how you feel they help you as a fighter, but I guess waht I am getting at, Are the katas or forms the decideing factor on how to be the best fighter???

Brian

Brian, if I may ask.. what MA do you practise?

Practise without kata is not possible. kata means a sort of form that must be practiced thousands of times to get it wright. Boxing also has kata. a sequence of punches that a boxer trains all the time is also kata. performing a gyakuzuki (reverse punch) 3 times is kata. but when a master gives it a name, all kinds of magic feelings and thaughts need to be produced. This is a misunderstanding, I think. It is about the control over youre body.

It is all about creating a good basis. You must work with principles and not with tricks. there are over millions of tricks to learn, but not as many principles. If you have a good basis and understand the principles, you will have to remember less forms and youre body is capable of adjusting to every situation. This is what kata is all about. Like I said before, 3 times gyakuzuki is a kata. add 3 maegeri's and a few blocks and here you have a kata. So this doesn't matter how many movements a kata haves. It is about a basis and understanding the principles what makes you a good fighter in every situation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wado-AJ:
Practise without kata is not possible. kata means a sort of form that must be practiced thousands of times to get it wright. Boxing also has kata. a sequence of punches that a boxer trains all the time is also kata. performing a gyakuzuki (reverse punch) 3 times is kata. but when a master gives it a name, all kinds of magic feelings and thaughts need to be produced. This is a misunderstanding, I think. It is about the control over youre body.

It is all about creating a good basis. You must work with principles and not with tricks. there are over millions of tricks to learn, but not as many principles. If you have a good basis and understand the principles, you will have to remember less forms and youre body is capable of adjusting to every situation. This is what kata is all about. Like I said before, 3 times gyakuzuki is a kata. add 3 maegeri's and a few blocks and here you have a kata. So this doesn't matter how many movements a kata haves. It is about a basis and understanding the principles what makes you a good fighter in every situation.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be talking in circles, and I mean no disrespect. But Boxers do not have kata, Yes the have drills and shadowboxing etc....But so does Kenpo, and Taekwondo. The difference is they call them Drills. I understand what you are saying,but to me it sounds like you are just talking in circles!!

Brian

Brian my first question to you is how long have you been in the arts? I ask this only because believe it or not when I first started my journey I like most had the same outlook as you do towards katas. Over thte years however and with the proper guidance of my Sensei and with some research on my own I have discovered several insteresting things in kata. Kata is not meant to be the ultimate guide to self defence but it gives us the basics to work with. They are simple and to the point. Katas were also a way for the old masters to pass down the techniques that they thought were important. I know when I teach self defence I try and take from kata what I can and modify it. To your point about some of the other styles and not having kata. One style is no better than the other. It is the student that makes it effective. Also I believe it is not about which style produces the better fighters either .Is not the point of Karate Do to avoid fighting?
Do not give up on kata. It is not about being a fan of it. It is about tradition and making sure the teachings of the founding fathers is passed on.

Chinto

[QUOTE]Are the katas or forms the decideing factor on how to be the best fighter???[/QUOTE]

No. They're another training tool/embodiment of style.

Brian I have to agree with Wado, in terms of "what is kata". If you are talking about a set of movements in Jujutsu that has a name, and is done solo, and simulates a fight,you are right, there are no kata in Jujutsu(however there is a kata in Judo). But if you view ANY series of movements as kata, then indeed Aikido, Jujutsu and Judo have kata. They may however be 2-person kata. If you look at a given technique when someone grabs and punches, and you do a specific movement of parying/blocking the strike-striking the attackers face-going down his arm and wrist lock,pull him with the wrist lock into a kick and take him down. That series of movements CAN be kata, especially if its repeated over and over, its just a 2 person form. So kata in the form of say Okinawan kata is not the same in Jujutsu or Aikido it does exist depending on how you view. A sensei told me that when you get dressed in the morning, its kata, and when you eat breakfast its kata. think about all the people who have a set regiment in their morning activities. underwear, socks, shirt,pants, shoes. Not that this IS the way to dress but look at how you dress, its probably the same way all the time, routine right, routine is kata, no matter what you do.So in this regard all styles have some form, whether its practiced the same or not. I too am a Jujutsu practioner, am more Jujutsu than Karate, but I have studied Okinawan Te(Shito Ryu)for almost 15 years, and take what I have learned in my kata's and apply them to my Jujutsu. Try applying a wrist lock and stepping into a horse or cat stance and watch how the attackers body changes with how you apply it. to me they are not separate functions, kata can be applied to anything.

Brian Mullen said:

"Boxers do not have kata, they have drills"

The issue is not drills, but combinations. How many combinations can a boxer have?

For example,
Left jab, right cross, left hook
Cover, jab, hook
Parry, cross
Duck, uppercut
Feint, draw, sidestep

You are right to say that these combinations are not kata. They are individual combinations, whereas kata are series of combinations.

So if boxing, a very effective fighting system, doesn't have kata, why do other systems?

It comes down to the both the complexity and the resulting variety of the combinations. In boxing, there are dozens, if not hundreds of individual combinations boxers use, but they are based on a limited set of techniques. These combinations do not use kicks, sweeps, locks, throws, knees, elbows, headbutts, eyestabs, chokes and all sorts of attacking grabs such as fishhooks, hairpulls, and throat grabs.

Take boxing techniques, multiply them by 20 or 30, and you are starting to come into the range of potential techniques used in fighting. With so many different kinds of techniques, the combinations become geometrically more varied and complex.

It's almost like the difference between chess and checkers, or say between chess, and a game similar but with only 4 pawns, a rook, knight, bishop and king. With so many pieces moving in so many different ways, the 64 square board with 32 pieces allows for endless variety.

It's not just that there are more specific techniques in the martial arts. Perhaps as important is that the combinations of all these varied techniques have been evolving and maturing for over 1000 years, the result being thousands upon thousands of combinations.

Now imagine for a moment that you are a master living perhaps 300-500 years ago, one that has devoted his entire life to the art. You have learned and developed hundreds and hundreds of combinations, some good, some not so good, but some really special.

Now you have a set of students that you want to pass your ideas onto, but the problem is that you have too much to pass on. So the first step is to separate the wheat from the chaff and concentrate on a core set of useful combinations that will best help your students become good fighters.

You also probably want to ensure that this essence of your lifelong study doesn't die when you pass on, but makes its way into future generations of students, those that you yourself will never personally teach, those that will hopefully come to learn your great ideas long after all your students have passed on.

Finally, remember, that you are living in a time with no pictures or videos, no boxing gyms and Tae Kwon Do clubs in every city and town, and quite possibly a time when the arts were practiced in relative secrecy.

How are you going to make your "art", that core set of great combinations, survive?

One option is to string your combinations together and pass them on as a single set. Voila, you create a kata.

The fighting combinations of the old masters exploited the full range of hand, leg and body movements, to build combinations that put the attacker on the ground and out of commission. Evasions and blocks, followed by kicks and strikes to set up locks, sweeps, stomps, chokes and throws. These masters understood that you can't drop a big attacker with a single strike, rather you execute an entire combination, a whirlwind of technique using good body mechanics (turns and forward movements) to develop the speed and power needed to make all the individual techniques really effective.

And when the masters crafted their sequences they did so in a way that preserved the underlying body mechanics of turns and steps, and at the same time added general purpose hand motions that could be used in various ways against different attacks.

Many systems today have roots in arts that passed on these forms, and in many situations the kata have been retained.

But many systems today have no forms. They just have combinations. So what's the difference. Here's one. Over the next few generations, many of these systems will evolve so they bear little resemblance to what is practiced today.

That is because there is incredible cross fertilization across all the arts. Many serious students study a variety of systems. They mix striking, grappling and weapons arts. And they in turn learn too much to pass on. Therefore they need to cull what they believe are the best ideas, or ones that work for them to pass on. This will go on for a few generations at which point, little will survive from what is taught today. There is no way to lock in a core set of techniques to be practiced by future generations of students.

This way works fine for many. You can learn to be a great fighter without ever doing a traditional kata. There are lots great combinations and training methods, and kata is just one of many tools. As all these non-kata systems evolve, they still often pass on good techniques and combinations that teach people how to defend themselves.

Traditional systems, however, choose to keep the kata, and with that, they keep a tie to the past, and potentially a set of useful combinations shared over many generations. They retain a common sequence of body movements that can be used to program proper body mechanics into effective techniques and combinations.

But kata provides other real benefits. First, kata is a means to practice fighting combinations well into old age in a way that maintains speed and power, while minimizing injuries. I am closing in on 50 and I am amazed at how long minor injuries take to heal. Shoulder, ankles, elbows, knees, you just don't want to injure them because it sets back your training for many months.

For those that think fighting begins and ends in the ring or on the mat, they should ask themselves, "For how long?". How many Muay Thai fighters do you see older than 30. Many can still fight, but most are riddled with injuries that will hamper them for a lifetime. Longterm judoka (those that began in their teens and trained into their 50s) are well known for having serious lower back problems.

Look at the big picture. Self defense can be practiced from youth through old age, a time when you are not as strong or fast, a time when you may really need some good fighting ability. Self defense can pe practiced in a way that minimizes injuries, instead of encouraging them. And critical, for practical fighting skills, the practice of the same "package" of combinations repetitively over many decades keeps them automatic and effective.

But the key is, you keep training with minimal risk of getting hit in your teeth, kicked in your groin, stomped on your knee or thrown on your head, risks all too common in the competitive grappling and stiking systems so widely practiced today.

There are other key benefits. First, the extensive repetition of movements has a meditative quality. One book written in the mid-60s was aptly named "Moving Zen, Karate as a Way to Gentleness".

Finally, there are many, like me, who really like the idea that the practice of kata ties them back to some group of long dead masters. You are connected to these great martial artists who devoted their lives to the arts, who culled their vast knowledge into these small sets of great combinations that have withstood the long test of time. Of the many thousands of combinations that have been dreamt up and practiced over countless generations, these great combinations have survived, precisely because the kata survive.

Practicing and teaching the kata and their underlying applications makes us a part of a great historical process, an art form that has survived hundreds and hundreds of years.

This is the art in Martial art. It's about more than just fighting, more than punching harder and faster, more than dominating someone in the ring. It's about a lifelong pursuit, a quest for perfection of something that can never be realized, and a way to grow old gracefully.

And all the while, you get good and stay good at being able to defend yourself.

[This message has been edited by kakushiite (edited 07-08-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Mullen:

I study Okinawan Kenpo and Jujitsu, The style of JuJitsu that I study I Taki Aki Ryu.
And we do not have kata.

[/QUOTE]

Brian,

You say you study Okinawan Kenpo. Kata is the heart and soul of Okinawan Kara-te. I find it very hard to believe that you do not learn kata in Okinawan Kenpo. It is either your instructor's preference to not teach kata or you have been mislead and you do not truely study Okinawan Kenpo.

Regards,

Raul

How I love these endless discussions.

Frankly it's very simple. For Karate, assuming we're talking about the original, Okinawan variants, there is no answer but kata is the soul of those studies. And if you're not doing kata then you're not doing karate.

Then the world changed and everybody thought they were all doing the same thing and they had the right to do whatver they did and call it whatever they wanted.

Other arts choose other methods, some using forms some not.

Of course I find it interesting that nobody seems to accuse the hundreds of Chinese systems as being 'weak' because they study forms, of magintude and complexity, often, than anybody in karate ever dreamed.

And I'm not referring to BL.... for he studied forms too and then created something else.

Well there's always something else. Okinawa had a long and strong sumo (local catch as catch can wrestling) tradition. Many who enterd karate experienced sumo too.

Funny thing is if one looks hard, or is trained correctly, there are tons of wrestling counters in those worthless forms.

And as for martial, well David Lowry said it best... it ain't martial..... the chinese invented gunpowder and since roughly 1850 the world martial artists, the military, been using guns and stronger alternatives. hand to hand and non projectile weapons do exist, but only in small specialist terms.

And for karate, it never was martial (though some in the military did chose to study it). Okinawa wasn't a violent place. Karate as it grew served some other purpose in the practitioners lives than wasting people.

Just a long confusion of terminiolgy.

pleasantly,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

It's so great to know there are some true martial artists left in this superficial, ADHD world.

Kakushite said he likes doing kata because of the ties it has to the old masters. That is so profound and the way that I've always felt. If you understand and respect the spirit of a thing it will respect you and reveal its truths to you. If you question yourself and what you decide to do continuously, you will never master yourself. It will be an endless search.

I can almost guarantee you that most so-called ex-karateka who now train MMAs style, were McDojoists, or kids who were forced to do it by their parents. I have NEVER met a true Okinawan karate stylist (this doesn't include cats like Fred Ettish) who dismissed the Okinawan fighting systems and converted totally to MMAs. There is no need, 'cause good karate IS a MMA.

Great posts guys! Most practitioners are not as adept and knowledgeable as Raul, Kakushite and Victor. Kindred spirits are hard to find. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:
Brian,

You say you study Okinawan Kenpo. Kata is the heart and soul of Okinawan Kara-te. I find it very hard to believe that you do not learn kata in Okinawan Kenpo. It is either your instructor's preference to not teach kata or you have been mislead and you do not truely study Okinawan Kenpo.

Regards,

Raul[/QUOTE]

My post was not clear enough and I am sorry, I meant that in the JuJitsu there is no Kata.
And yes I do study "real" Okinawan Kenpo and yes it has a fair share of kata!!!

To senseilou and Kakshiite:

Thank you for your posts, both were very knowledgeable, and I appreciate you kindness, most people automatically assume that my views don't matter. And I kinda understand were you are comming from when you say kata unites you with the masters of old. And how kata basically is a bunch of different teqniques such a ( shadow boxing ) etc.....
I am officially going to "empty my cup" and embrace all that kata can give me.

my instructor says all the time that "kata gives you all the answers, It's up to you to find the questions" and it really did'nt make sense to me untill I read your post. and again I thank you

Brian

Brian... I am not expert on the subject of kata like others here, but having trained in Jujutsu alot of years and karate so I get to see both sides of the coin. I think your Sensei though is a 100% correct and that was the way my Sensei approached me. When I would ask for a certain Bunkai or explaination, he would tell me I had to give him one first, then he would share one with me. If I didn't like it or it wasn't enough, I would have to give him another before he would share more. On and on like this for over 10 years. My Questions were answered first with my answers, then his. I really learned alot. And if I may offer some other advise. Sometimes, Okinawan kata is vague and hard to see the Bunkai. I have struggled for years over certain movements. to see how kata works on a more technique basis, look at some Kempo kata's, the older Kempo styles the Bunkai is just right there and not so hard to translate. It helps seeing what they did, and then the Okinawan katas are a bit easier to see. Kempo kata deal in self-defense techniques, and there is not much variation to them(a little but not like Okinawan)Okinawan kata, you can study movement and see much. But if you want to see kata with a different flavor look at some of the Hawaiian Kempo katas, Shaolin Kempo(Grandmaster Castro)Ed Parker Kempo etc.

Brian,

You wrote that your teacher tells you:

"Kata gives you all the answers, It's up to you to find the questions"

This is a profound thought. Here is Patrick McCarthy’s translation of one of Itosu’s 10 precepts. (In Nagamine’s Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters)

“Handed down by word of mouth, Karate is a myriad of techniques and corresponding meanings. Resolve to independently explore the context of the movements, using the principles of torite (theory of usage), and the applications will be more easily understood.”

Here Itosu tells us to that it is up to teachers to give us the basics (torite) and up to us to map those ideas onto the kata. You are fortunate to study two systems that give you key principles. Your system of Okinawa Kenpo probably comes from Oyata. He has certainly been the most prolific master in passing on the tuite and kyusho jitsu hidden in the art.

But you also study JuJutsu, and here you learn a whose other set of grappling skills not commonly taught in karate systems.

With these two systems, you have the tools, the torite, to help unlock the secrets of the kata. So many karateka think that all combinations must end with strikes or stomps.

As my art has evolved, I grow more towards the principles of JuJutsu and Aikido. Locks and chokes are often better finishing alternatives (at least against single attackers). I really like the Aikido principle of subduing an opponent without hurting him. Although I have an important modification. Add the word "seriously" to the end of that statement. I firmly believe you have to hit/kick someone good and hard to disorient/unbalance them long enough to set up the locks, throws and chokes found in the grappling arts. And if your lock just happens to dislocate a joint in the process, well it's not a perfect world.

To me, one of the great aspects of karate is the combination of incredibly powerful strikes/kicks, packaged right along with movements that seemlessly add locks, chokes and throws.

I find the key to good bunkai is to never be satisfied. If something works well against a grab, how can you make it work against a strike. If it works well against a left jab, how can you make it work against a left jab/right strike combination. If the attacker strikes with his right, and your counter is designed to go to his neck, how do you modify against someone whose left hand naturally covers the area. How do you penetrate that defense?

All I teach is applications from kata. But my students don’t think that my ideas are the only ones. They know how important it is for them to help with the discovery process, to help explore new possibilities, and then work out the kinks until something is really effective.

Some of my best combinations have key components that come from my students. It's been a great collaboration.

[This message has been edited by kakushiite (edited 07-09-2004).]

Have you ever experienced the layers of training around the subject of kata? This might be worth exploring.

One tradition is that it's up to you to find the answers. There's a long line of traditional arts that pass that along. The list of schools that follow that approach is too long to list.

Yet a different tradition is the 'kakushite' hidden hand tradition. As a student (Dan level) you don't find anything. It's all taught to you in such depth you'll spend the rest of your life working hard. Instad of seeking you spend your time training and learning when and where to pick and choose from your answers. A solid example is the Shotokan instructor, Tris Sutrisno, I trained with for 10 years. I don't know how many thousand techniques he knows, but as a student with him (he's from an Indonesian Shotokan/Aikido/Tjimande tradition, not straight line Shotokan), instead of thinking you sweat, and his job is to teach skill.

Yet another is the instructor looking at the infinite potential of every move of every technique in their system. There the student is in the middle of the mix of the instructor studies, growing and learning to execute and to understand a techniques potential. The late Sherman Harrill is a great example of that style of teaching.

With both Sutrisno Sensei and Harrill Sensei, you were totally caught up in the joy of learning new.

Yet another answer (of many) is those Chinese systems that only teach one application per movement. But they teach thousands of movements in their incredible long forms.

But for all those answers the teaching is just one step of many to come for advanced skill.

Thought some of the many layers of possiblity might be interesting.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kakushiite:
Here Itosu tells us to that it is up to teachers to give us the basics (torite) and up to us to map those ideas onto the kata. You are fortunate to study two systems that give you key principles. Your system of Okinawa Kenpo probably comes from Oyata. He has certainly been the most prolific master in passing on the tuite and kyusho jitsu hidden in the art.[/QUOTE]

Kakushiite,

Just because he says Okinawan Kenpo does not necessarily mean his system is from Oyata's. Remember Shigeru Nakamura first coined the name Okinawa Kenpo and Oyata was his student. His system could be part of Nakamura's tradition or students from Nakamura (not necessarily Oyata).

If he studies Oyata's system he would probably use the name Ryu-Te, Ryukyu Kempo or Oyata Shin Shu Ho.

Also give a considerable amount of credit to Hohan Soken for Tuite too. Lets not be biased here [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Kind regards,

Raul

Raul,

I asked my instructor were "my" Kenpo stemmed from and he said Sekichi Odo which falls in line wth Nakemura if I am not mistaken.

Again I am thankful for your insight and being so open minded to my naive questions

Brian