Interesting kata agument

First off I have been doing a lot of kata research for the past 5 years.
I have been finding all kinds of applications and theories. I have also been studying a lot of Okinawn history and culture.

I have been hearing this statement a lot. “The kata only contain moves that are design to deal with untrained attacks, or Violent untrained attacks.” Meaning if you are fighting someone who is trained, your Dead. Ok lets say we accept this. Heres the problem. In 18 century Okinawn, Everybody was trained. Believe it or not even some women. Te or Tode or what ever you want to call it was a past time. The Okinawns were holding tegumi matches that were a touch similar to a modern day grappling compitions. Pre 1900 Tegumi was in reality a very hard freestyle wrestling match were only the best trained would win, and a lot of times people walked away with broken lims or were in choked out. Keeping in mind this was not the objective of these competions, from what I understand from research the object was to either throw them out of the ring or pin them on their back. In the begin of the 1900 the rules of tegumi were changed. The only objective of the game was to throw the opponent out of the ring. Now the tegumi methods are supposed to be hidden within the katas, along with a lot of other stuff. I know Te was always thought to be taught in secret, but Te was only kept a secret when Japan took over the country. So if the art was only for an untrained violent attack and everybody was trained then it was useless. Now It seems to me that there is a whole in this argument. Just a thought.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, I just thought this would make an interesting conversation.

I don't think this is true, although an untrained person is more likely to set themselves up for counterattacks.

The te gumi drills, specific drills for groundwork, open fist and weapons techniques means that they are used for people who are trained.

An armbar still works against me.

You can still get into a fight (mutual combat) with both trained and untrained opponents which should be a mix of sparring and the most effective techniques from kata.

Look at Unsu, the ground kicks are used in grappling or as a defence from a kick. The upper block strikes of Pinan Ni work against anyone in stand up grappling.

The actual beginning of a kata is the most devistating. The combat should be over after the first few moves. The reason the Kata continues is the fact that your opponent may be very skilled.

Thanks,
Peter

The actual beginning of a kata is the most devistating. The combat should be over after the first few moves. The reason the Kata continues is the fact that your opponent may be very skilled.

many see the kata as one into the next into the next, into the next etc...
others also see them a seperate movements often showing concept rather than required flow. I have spent whole classes doing bunkai for a single major movememnt. I find following the kata in a very rigid manner does not take into account there is no way to tell how the person will react to the given techniques. they may block it and counter with any number of things, be injured and fall left, right, backwards too may unknowns.

AS ALWAYS IMHO

Ahhh Kempocos.. you beat me to the punch... I'll just add then...

Every SINGLE movement in kata is Lethal and Efficient.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PETER:
The actual beginning of a kata is the most devistating. The combat should be over after the first few moves. The reason the Kata continues is the fact that your opponent may be very skilled.

Thanks,
Peter[/QUOTE]


Any part of the kata can be (and should be) treated as the begining. As such one part of a kata is no more effective than another.

JohnL

I think it is best to learn Kata in stages. First you learn at the earth level ( a block is a block and a strike a strike). You then move to the water level (flowing and evading). Then the air level which consist of much evasion and simultanious striking. at this level blocks are no longer blocks, they are strikes, parries and body manipulations. Eventually you progress to the fire level. At this level everything you do causes pain and damage to your opponent. Kata is the true template to combat. The katas that you named are my favorites and I do believe I have reached the fire level with each ( 30 years). But amazingly enough my instructor still keeps me coming back for increased interpritation. If you are ever in the Pittsburg, PA area email me and Maybe I can enlighten you on some amazing combat bunkia.

This comes from a reply I made in response to another question. The point I bring up is that the kata is a template of many waza combined in a template to make it easier to pass on. I agree each part of a kata can be used as a single offense or defense, but remember the combat must end as soon as possible. The more turns your opponent gets the better the chance of you getting injured. As far as your opponents reactions being unpredictable that is true and again why the kata continues. The katas are based on the 36 habitual acts of violence from Shalin. Although predicting your opponents response is difficult the next move in the Kata places you in the best possible situation to deal with the response. In most situations your opponents response will be to cover, retreat, or continue to engage. The proper Bunkai done the same way (with only a slight variation in timing) will deal with all 3 responses. The developer of the Kata knew through experience that your opponent does not always act the way you want. Again if attacked the first 4 moves of the correctly chosen kata should end it. If it does not you are facing someone with some skill. if you continue through much of the Kata then you need to befriend your opponent and share strategies (Chinto vs Matsumura). Try practicing your Bunkai as if fighting only one opponent, this is a very advanced practice. I call my opponent the "grey man" and consider him equally skilled. Also practice Bunkai with you being the "grey man."
I take the Bunkai very seriously, I can tell you what the "grey man" is bwearing , what he smells like and even if he is cleanly shaved. Sorry to go on and on.
Hope I clearified my previos reply.

Thank You,
Peter
Thanks,

Peter

Hi Peter

Earth, water etc levels of kata. Garbage.

"The katas that you named are my favorites and I do believe I have reached the fire level with each ( 30 years). But amazingly enough my instructor still keeps me coming back for increased interpritation."

Sounds like your instructors onto a good thing.

"The point I bring up is that the kata is a template of many waza combined in a template to make it easier to pass on."

This I agree with.

"As far as your opponents reactions being unpredictable that is true and again why the kata continues."

You are suggesting that you perform your kata because the fight continues. Sorry, this I have trouble with.

"The katas are based on the 36 habitual acts of violence from Shalin. Although predicting your opponents response is difficult the next move in the Kata places you in the best possible situation to deal with the response."

You are suggesting that a set sequence of moves in response to a series of random moves. This simply doesn't work.

"In most situations your opponents response will be to cover, retreat, or continue to engage."

That's about all anyone could do in a given situation.

"The proper Bunkai done the same way (with only a slight variation in timing) will deal with all 3 responses. The developer of the Kata knew through experience that your opponent does not always act the way you want."

There is no such thing as a proper bunkai.

"Again if attacked the first 4 moves of the correctly chosen kata should end it."

Sorry Peter but this is impossible. You cannot simply go through 4 moves without knowing or paying regard to how the opponent is going to react.

"If it does not you are facing someone with some skill. if you continue through much of the Kata then you need to befriend your opponent and share strategies (Chinto vs Matsumura)."

Best of luck with this one. You are suggesting that you can progress through more of your kata, and then make freinds with the guy. Sorry, no.

"Try practicing your Bunkai as if fighting only one opponent, this is a very advanced practice. I call my opponent the "grey man" and consider him equally skilled. Also practice Bunkai with you being the "grey man."

There is nothing advanced about fighting one opponent. That's all you can fight at any one time anyway.

"I take the Bunkai very seriously, I can tell you what the "grey man" is bwearing , what he smells like and even if he is cleanly shaved. Sorry to go on and on."

Your over analyzing for the effect you're going to get. I believe you need to simplyfy your thinking. You've gone into meltdown.

JohnL

JOHN-L You hae saved me much typing well said.
To look at KATA with such a narrow view is missing the point of doing KATA. To learn the movements required for techniques. How the technique must be applied I believe is not the reason. I use a saying " a block is a strike is a lock is a throw " to help students see how to approach bunkai. It is hard to make the art work for you if you only see it through the eyes of another.

The point of my commnet is " I Believe "

Hi John L

Earth, water etc levels of kata. Garbage.

Garbage?????? Please expand, also can you tell me wether you train in an Amaricanized Do system or a Ko Ryu Okinawan Jutsu system


"As far as your opponents reactions being unpredictable that is true and again why the kata continues."

You are suggesting that you perform your kata because the fight continues. Sorry, this I have trouble with.

Why?????

"The katas are based on the 36 habitual acts of violence from Shalin. Although predicting your opponents response is difficult the next move in the Kata places you in the best possible situation to deal with the response."

You are suggesting that a set sequence of moves in response to a series of random moves. This simply doesn't work.

The Kata is aset sequence of moves, the bunkai allows for variation in timing, posture, and the ability to leave the pattern.

"In most situations your opponents response will be to cover, retreat, or continue to engage."

That's about all anyone could do in a given situation.

That is what I ment.

"The proper Bunkai done the same way (with only a slight variation in timing) will deal with all 3 responses. The developer of the Kata knew through experience that your opponent does not always act the way you want."

There is no such thing as a proper bunkai.

I disagree keep your opponent outside of 11/2 moves and you do have the ability to
choose the "most appropriate Bunkai.

Also there are Bunkai against for example , a frontal attack that should not only end the confrontation but end your opponent.

"Again if attacked the first 4 moves of the correctly chosen kata should end it."

Sorry Peter but this is impossible. You cannot simply go through 4 moves without knowing or paying regard to how the opponent is going to react.

SEE ABOVE!!!
"If it does not you are facing someone with some skill. if you continue through much of the Kata then you need to befriend your opponent and share strategies (Chinto vs Matsumura)."

Best of luck with this one. You are suggesting that you can progress through more of your kata, and then make freinds with the guy. Sorry, no.

I did not mean this literaly, I ment that you are dealing with a person of such skill that the confrontation probably would not have taken place.

"Try practicing your Bunkai as if fighting only one opponent, this is a very advanced practice. I call my opponent the "grey man" and consider him equally skilled. Also practice Bunkai with you being the "grey man."

There is nothing advanced about fighting one opponent. That's all you can fight at any one time anyway.

I ment going through the entire kata as if it is the same opponent that initiated the combat. Not breaking it into waza and going from one opponent to another.

"I take the Bunkai very seriously, I can tell you what the "grey man" is wearing , what he smells like and even if he is cleanly shaved. Sorry to go on and on."

Your over analyzing for the effect you're going to get. I believe you need to simplyfy your thinking. You've gone into meltdown.

John, If you believe this than I already know that you practice Americanized
, Sport Karate. Kata is the key to life presevation Karate. All combat strategies, both offensive and defensive (actually one and the same) are in the Kata. I mean know disrespect but the Bunkai I practice comes from a very pure linage from Okanawa.

Sincerly,
Peter
JohnL


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kempocos

Please take some time and type, because I'm not quite sure what you mean. Please don't take this as sarcasm.
I enjoy and consider what you and John say. It's only through sharing ideas that make the light go on.

Thanks,
Peter

As this has progressed my opinion on your statements has changed. At first it appeared that you saw that movement 1 must be followed by movement 2 and then must be followed by movement 3 as the bunkai takes place. My point was to see each movement rather than the sequence in the bunkai. I have always been taught to not only see the KATA as a whole but as a collection that can be rearranged so the bunkai can have movement 1 followed by movement 3 and then with movement 2 if the attack requires it. I have studied under traditional and non-traditional OKINAWAN instructors. In the early stages of training the bunkai was shown, in the later it was stressed to develop my own.

Peter

Am I missing something.

You appear to be suggesting that a kata can be undertaken in a standard sequence and that this is then some continual form of self defence.

Is this in fact what you are suggesting?

The karate I practice is neither Americanized, nor sport oriented.

What is Ko Ryu Okinawan Jutsu by the way. I tried a search on the net and couldn't find anything.

JohnL

It seems that everyone has a lot to add to the subject. I will therefore say a few words. In karate things are not what they seem to be, they are what the are, nothing more, nothing less. No bunkai is wrong, some are simply more effective, and as humans we should strive to be effective in everything that we do. In kata there are beginning, intermediate, and advanced application. We study kata and its bunkai to more effectively deal with these violent situations. Theoretically a karateka using karate techniques can defeat any opponent using beginning application of techniques, if a karateka can reach this level, then why continue strive for mastery of technique? Because no matter how many people I can defeat or how fast I can do it my goal is not to defeat those people or do it quickly, but make my technique as effective as possible. Please learn all you can and never stop striving for mastery of karate, although none of us will ever attain it. The goal of kata is to teach a person to fight freely without breaking its principles. To find freedom within the confinement of kata is the ultimate goal of karate. The sequence you use does not matter because the same effect can be found through many different sequences. It is all about what works for an individual. When a person fights they should free their mind and only focus on attack. If an individual is properly trained through kata he/she will be able to completely focus on attack and all of the "blocks and body shifting" will take care of itself.

Finally I will refer to the comment about karate used to deal with the unskilled. Unfortunately there are not written records of much of the "old style" karate techniques and philosophy. There is also a langauge barrier between Americans and Okinawans both phonetically and conceputally. It is my understanding that unskilled does not mean unskilled in fighting, but unskilled in social graces and the "technique" of being a true "man." A true man is not a person who goes around committing habitual acts of physcial violence(HAPV). It is the person who is unskilled in being a good upstanding member of society that karate is meant to be used upon. In the proper hands extreme violence can be a very good way to achieve peace and enlighten both parties in a fight. Believe me when I say karate in its true form is very frightening and not to be trifled with, and depending on the skill and level of knowledge of the user has few equals in the world of men and HAPV.

Several kata have similar parts to them. If you've ever had a break from training or not been focused (and have these similar kata), you may find yourself starting one kata but end up in another. Reading the other posts to this topic got me thinking how that is a good example of how kata moves can be varied in a fight.

It also occurred to me that it usually happens in the higher kata by reverting back to the more basic kata that is similar. To me, this could be why certain kata are learned in certain orders so that you can still fight even though your body cannot remember what technique to use from the higher kata. On the other hand, it may be just a matter of remembering the one you do most. However, maybe that is why they are taught in that order-so that we can always have something basic to fight with.

One of my instructors told me that after years of practice, the very first kata we learn should evolve into something totally different yet with the same exact moves. It's not just the ability to apply different bunkai to each move but also in how each move is performed even though it is the same move. It is a subtle difference that is felt more than observed.

In regards to similar kata, when you mindlessly transition from one to another, you almost immediately recognize something as wrong but it feels natural. This tells me that kata is not limited to only the possibilities of that particular kata and so you have at your command a wider range of moves your body can choose from.

I would also like to add that your body will automatically react to whatever threat it perceives and will react according to its positioning at the time of the threat. Of course, this happens after lots and lots of practice.

Comments?

Hachiman

John L,

I study Shorin Ko Ryu Karate Jutsu.
Meaning "Shaolin Old Style China Hand Combat."

Although I do practice/follow the "Do" and many believe you cannot seperate the Jutsu from the Do. I have tried to keep my lineage as pure as possible. I could easily call my style Shorin Rye. I train under total okinawan influence and have disregarded the Japaneses influences on Karate. I personaly believe that the Japanese had a negative affect on true life preservation karate Jutsu. I believe Karate Jutsu was used for combat. Because of the Japanese culture, the militarly teaching style, compitition, deep stances, etc. became priority. I personaly see a big difference between Ko (old) Okinawan Karate Jutsu and Japanese Karate Do. Unfortunatly the change can be seen in Okinawan also. Quoting Master Kise "in the near future Okinawans will have to seek out true Karate Jutsu in America.

One last thing, I apologize to anyone I offend, but the greatest downfall of Karate is the Americanized,comercial, Sport Version.


Thanks,
Peter

Medulanet,

That was excellent!!!!!!

Thank You,
Peter

Hi Peter
A couple of notes on your post, even though they're slightly off the original topic;

Your post in guotes.

"I personaly see a big difference between Ko (old) Okinawan Karate Jutsu and Japanese Karate Do. Unfortunatly the change can be seen in Okinawan also. Quoting Master Kise "in the near future Okinawans will have to seek out true Karate Jutsu in America."

I'm slightly torn on this statement as I have an interest in MA history.
However, who said that old is good or better than new. If you are shot, I'm sure you would like more than a bottle of whisky and a stick to bite down on while they remove the bullet.
I don't have a problem with you looking for a historical MA, it's just that when it's put forward as something that it is not that I have a problem.

You referenced Master Kise as a source. I note from his web site that he quotes extensively about the linage of the style. It is of interest that he obtained his Shodan in 1958 and his 7th Dan in 1965. As he was born in 1947 that makes him a 7th dan at 29. Going through this rate of grade promotion is similar to the TKD practitioners I have argued with on their section of the forum and hardly shows an earned level of grade.

JohnL

John L,

I'm sorry if I said that old is good and new is bad. I ment that changes were made by the japanese in kata to tone down the intensity of the bunkai, and also that the american sevice men returned with what they thought was the real deal and it was not.As far as Master Kise is concerned I agree with you, although I do believe he has a very good foundation in the white crane style as passed down by Hohen Soken. I have had the opportunity to meet many martial artist throughout the years, many claiming to be something they are not. Robert Trias "father of american karate" "bologna". He knows about as much about Bunkai as the rest of his international organization, which is not much. I consider Hohen Soken Great, and if you ever get a chance to meet Bill Hayes, Glen Premu, Ronald Lindsey, John Hamilton, or Micheal Farrell, DO IT!!!
These are some impressive martial artists. John I know I sound errogant, but I'm not. At this point in my life with 30 years of training and all the karate political BS I have been through I just speak my mind. Anyone who doesn't like it can ignore it.
I do hope you decide to continue to read my messages and reply. Although you and I may see things from a different point of view, I also think we agree on many things, and also your replies get my full attention and consideration. I have made some replies in different sections, if you get a chance take a look and give me your thoughts.

Bussiness contracts
Wanshu meaning
myth of the street fighter
prearranged fighting

Thanks,
Peter

I have to agree with Pete to a certain extent. Kise Fusei was and is an awesome karate-ka AND street fighter. He was a 7th Dan when he was promoted by Hohan Soken to that rank. Anyone who knows anything about Okinawan karate knows of Kise and his martial knowledge and prowess.

All that aside, I feel that bunkai is 'plastic'. I mean it's endowed with adaptability or 'plasticity'. You will see these types of responses from folks who trained in Okinawan Kobujutsu (not just meaning weapons but "old fighting art"). I can tell Pete is a true karate-ka or at least a Matsumura Seito influenced one [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

My only teacher is Ronald Lindsey. All those folks Pete mentioned are the real deal (except for Premru), contrary to what some might "think" (I use that term loosely mind you).

As for Tegumi. It is a fact that this form of "Okinawan Jujutsu" was a brutal game. Up until the early 20th century it was something that alot of the boys did for fun. Broken bones from armbars and the such were common. This stuff is in most of the ShuriTe derived katas for sure.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Krunkenstein (edited 10-07-2003).]