Who works advanced kata applications

Just a brief question?

Who's working advanced kata applications. Kata such as Gojushiho, Kusanku, Chinto, Rohai, etc.

If so any trends in your application studies worth discussing?

The reason I ask is years ago on my web-site I put out some of the application material I teach, and after over 20,000 hits I've never had any discussion about it.

Which makes me wonder are only beginning kata beind studied for application, or is it people are too reserved to share what they work?

Food for thought!

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu www.funkydragon.com/bushi

I ahve been trying to get stuff for Kanku Dai, but it isn't very good or ripped from the Heians/Pinans.

I used to know Meikyo, which to me seems nothing like Rohai. I couldn't see any applications paticular to it, except for the weird postures and jumps. Rohai would be better to work on.

I tried once to get Gojushiho going, what wasn't obvious was alien.

Are there any sources for kata such as Gojushiho, like Moneymaker or Dillman? Perhaps I should learn Balck Tiger Boxing.

Hi Joe,

I'm not as much referring to works by authors. Some show a few applications, but rather what people are working on.

One of my seniors died last year, the 8 years previous I studied over 800 individual applications and principles from the Isshinryu kata (Isshinryu's Seisan, Seiunchin, Nihanchi, Wansu, Chinto, Kusanku, SunNuSu, Sanchin) which I documented and pulled together in my notes (about 200 pages).

And I have my own studies.

I've worked on Bassai Dai (Shotokan) , Gojushiho (Matsubahsyi Ryu version) and Sanchin (Isshinryu), Seisan (Ueichi), as well as run cross group analysis of Passai version and Seisan versions among others.

And I'm still learning.

The issue of course is very rarely does anybody take the time to disscuss them.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Nah, what I meant was when I try to analyse the moves of the kata, my applications for those kata, are to my mind, inefective. On the other hand I have some good stuff I worked out myslef for Bassai Dai and Sho, Enpi but these katas that you mention seems to be very, very difficualt to get anything workable out of. But is there any authored work on such kata?

I have seen little discussion between people trying to break them down OR authored work on the katas you mention.

Perhaps your frustration in being able to communicate with other who have similar knowledge should be taken as a compliment.

Are you thinking of publishing your work at any time?

I have posted before on this forum on Bassai kata, (How Many Passais? http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000024.html , tell me what you think, I have three taught to me by McCarthy, and five I found myself.

I will add the application I put down that was taught to me (2nd McCarthy) there that ends up with the opponent huddled over begins with a tackle being redirected.

Victor, I don't know how good this is, but I just found this;
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shawnjefferson/index.htm

I'll have a look around myself.

Hi Joe,

Interesting material, I'm reviewing it and hope to have an answer to respond tonight.

As Basai isn't primarily one of the Isshinryu kata, I haven't worried about the application of the opening (but focused mostly on those sections which are similar to Isshinryu's SunNuSu kata.

Studying under Tris Sutrisno off hand I recall his using the opening movements of Bassai Sho for an arm break but I have to review my notes on this.

Thanks for giving me a challenge.

As for my own studies, I have no plans to publish them. Much of application study really requires you being there, nuances are hard to understand without the demo as small angles and movement are often included.

My notes on what I've done are for my advanced students.

But it is an intersting topic to me.

Thanks,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Hi Victor. I am working on Chinto right now, and the bunkai is voluminous! Sometimes called the first of the "Crane" katas (gotta watch that term), it has lots of throws/grappling, groundfighting and combo strikes. For example, after the initial shuto to "X-block", a follow up knee check to uppercut is seen. This a lot like Muay Thai's "climbing the vine", but with more control. A throw follows that, etc..

Is there any specific sequence you want input on or to talk about? I do Matsumura Seito, so I don't think the kata are that different from Isshin. Later and good topic....
Bryan

Hi Joe,

I like your Bassai Opening applications. As I said it wasn't an aspect I've focused on lately.

One you might consider is how you could use it against a multiple striking attack from the inside.

If the opponent was moving into you with a right and left punch combination. Your left hand touching your right fist keeps your body alighment such that you can readily parry each strike to the outside as you finish by striking into their solar plexus.

This is very similar to a similar way I use Seiunchin's (Isshinryu version) augmented punch.

When one hand touches the other arm, your body automatically aligns making such interior parry blocks very difficult to breach, and having parried the arms out, the re-inforced and aligned strike to the solar plexus is extremely powerful, the knee strike can readily be a skip forward to slam it home.

And for Multiverse,

Chinto one of my favorite kata. Have you noticed the entire range of Aikido technique it contains.

One extremely powerful suggestion is to take the stepping forward hammerfist into the other hand, and use it applied as Aikido's heaven and earth throw.

The opponent strikes or grabs with their right as their right steps foward.

Step around their right leg with your right, your left open hand parries outside, moving their arm away, and your right forearm strikes down into their neck (as your hand tries to hit your left).

The opponent literally slam dunks themself to the ground to get away from thet hammerfist. You really don't need much force to have the 'threat' of pain make them throw themselves across your left calf.

How do those suggestions work for you?

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Yes Sensei Smith, I like it, I supopose it is a variation of "My Bassai Sho II". I think I will rework these and try to incorporate kyusho, such as making the bump to take balance an attack to the peronial nerve and so on.

As for Kanku Dai, the only piece of useful bunkai I have is ripped from Vince Morris. The opening sequence is from a double wrist grab and the motion is made to smash the inside bones of the hands against each other.

What say you (and anyone else) of the final manouveres of Kusanku/Kanku?

Hi Joe,

Which version of Kusanku, and which movements?

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

I have good bunkai for a couple of Shuri te kata Bassai Dai (Itosu's version) Kusanku Dai and several Naha te kata (Kururunpha, Seipei and Seinchin).

Does anyone have a question for any movements in those kata? I might be able to give an interpretation.

Victor and Kakushiite, Kanku Dai, from the crescent kick, "cheating fighting posture", high and low X-blocks, spin, choke, jumping front kick, hammerfist, scoop and spin and then the salutation.

I think there may be 3-4 sequences or aseries of applications there.

For the end of Kusanku Dai, I can use the movements that begin with the double x-blocks in several ways.

There are a variety of empty handed interpretations. The ones I like most are bo-disarming techniques. I have also found bo-disarming techniques is Pinan Godan. (There is a double downward, double upward block in Pinan Godan as well.)

Some help....given the obvious "grappling/tuitee" applications that could be interpreted in numerous bunkai of the many kata themselves, was or would be it possible that the masters of old, the true creators and inventors of these kata meant their karate to be studied along with a grapping art-aikido, jujitsu, aikijitsu to complete the system and make it somewhat whole ? Ancient cross-training ? Many masters were highly ranked in more than one style. The practical applications (finally someone explained what the techniques really is and how and why it is applied) is what drew me away from many years of sport karate and got me on track with Shorin Ryu. My Sensei has high rank in both jujitsu and aikido and when he teaches bunkai, the sequence seems to end most naturally or should I say seems to finish with a controlling/compliance technique, some sort of lock or pin, possibly working a pressure point or two. Just wondering.

In regards to Kanku Dai, let me take the high 'X' block followed by a clockwise spin.

The most favorable application I would use would begin with the high 'X' strike into an attacker's throat, as a stop hit. Then I'd let the crossed hands slide down a bit and have each hand grab the inside of their collar (right hand on top). Next I'd roll the right hand which is holding their collar to the right, so the knuckles roll into the side of their neck as I drop both my elbows and pull them in.

By working the right hand, they will shift to the right. The following turn is a takedown moving 180 degerees clockwise, and ending with my following them down to maintain that locking takedown.

Just a thought.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Victor Smith:
Hi Joe,


And for Multiverse,

Chinto one of my favorite kata. Have you noticed the entire range of Aikido technique it contains.

One extremely powerful suggestion is to take the stepping forward hammerfist into the other hand, and use it applied as Aikido's heaven and earth throw.

The opponent strikes or grabs with their right as their right steps foward.

Step around their right leg with your right, your left open hand parries outside, moving their arm away, and your right forearm strikes down into their neck (as your hand tries to hit your left).

The opponent literally slam dunks themself to the ground to get away from thet hammerfist. You really don't need much force to have the 'threat' of pain make them throw themselves across your left calf.

How do those suggestions work for you?

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu[/QUOTE]

Sounds feasible. As for the Aikido techs, I can see how tuite and Aikijutsu would come to similar conclusions in certain scenarios.

Instead of a hammerfist in the opening sequence we use a 2 shuto combo, which ends in an x-block or reinforced strike, however you want to see it. This block can also be interpreted as a wrist grab escape to a wrist lock/control, an overhead back knuckle strike to the nose, with a simultaneous knee to the midsection or face. Controlling the arm you pivot 180o on your left landing with your right leg forward, which can be interpreted as a throw over the right hip.

This is just one interpretation. I can see many options from this type of kata training. The most interesting part of Chinto is the sequence after the last renoji dachi, where the lead arm tears down (and to a low block/strike) as the rear arm "tears" up and to the rear, the wrist level with your shoulder. This can be a very nasty throw that utilizes grabbing the oppponents hair with the rear arm, and an arm with the other.

The next few moves vary amongst styles, but after taking a small step back with your right leg ours goes to the knees, in a knee mount ground position (one interpretation) and what seems to be a simultaneous strike or blood/air choke ("eagle claw"). It could also be seen as an x-choke, or an armbar. Bunkai can get even "rawer" and more destructive. I won't detail anymore for now. I'll leave it at that. Anyway, the next section of the kata deals with bear hug escapes, and other close-in grappling counters and reversals. Give me more of your bunkai, please! This is a good discussion.

Very good kata Victor. Thanks for your bunkai. Hope mine made sense.



[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 04-01-2003).]

Multiverse,

Your application work for me.

One of Chinto's most interesting aspects is how many different applications can be found with the same section. But so much also depends on which version you're working, too.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

[This message has been edited by fullcircle (edited 10-20-2003).]

[This message has been edited by fullcircle (edited 10-20-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Yes Sensei Smith, I like it, I supopose it is a variation of "My Bassai Sho II". I think I will rework these and try to incorporate kyusho, such as making the bump to take balance an attack to the peronial nerve and so on.

As for Kanku Dai, the only piece of useful bunkai I have is ripped from Vince Morris. The opening sequence is from a double wrist grab and the motion is made to smash the inside bones of the hands against each other.

What say you (and anyone else) of the final manouveres of Kusanku/Kanku?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Yes Sensei Smith, I like it, I supopose it is a variation of "My Bassai Sho II". I think I will rework these and try to incorporate kyusho, such as making the bump to take balance an attack to the peronial nerve and so on.

As for Kanku Dai, the only piece of useful bunkai I have is ripped from Vince Morris. The opening sequence is from a double wrist grab and the motion is made to smash the inside bones of the hands against each other.

What say you (and anyone else) of the final manouveres of Kusanku/Kanku?[/QUOTE]

try this re.the last few moves of kanku dai,...turn and scoop catch his kick,palm heel strike his knee cap(closed fist)with the other hand,...x block and catch his face punch attack,turn under his arm(bar)as in the kata and bring it down over your shoulder(elbow down),...this breaks the arm,...or if you like lean forward and throw him over your shoulder(ippon seoi nage),...if you dont throw him,..after you broke his arm,step away turn around and scoop catch his kick as he steps forward,..lift your hands high ,..the final salutation of the kata,...and dump him backwards onto his butt.the end!Hope this helps,..try it I am sure you will like it.
Oost!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Yes Sensei Smith, I like it, I supopose it is a variation of "My Bassai Sho II". I think I will rework these and try to incorporate kyusho, such as making the bump to take balance an attack to the peronial nerve and so on.

As for Kanku Dai, the only piece of useful bunkai I have is ripped from Vince Morris. The opening sequence is from a double wrist grab and the motion is made to smash the inside bones of the hands against each other.

What say you (and anyone else) of the final manouveres of Kusanku/Kanku?[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I'll give it a try. I will post alterations and observations.

Any help is appreciated. That means YOU, PETER and Krunkenstein! (and omegapoint?)

Joesixpack,

I have some complete bunkai for the 5 Pinans, 3 nai., Seisan, Seiunchin, Wansu, Chinto, and some others. Seeing
how you live in Australia it may be best to try some kind of video exchange. If you have specific questions on specific parts I would be more than happy to try and write them. I think it would be difficult to do a verbal exchange for entire katas. Drop me an email.

Thanks,
Peter

I do the Wado version of Chinto and we split the body in half to make it a "snake and crane" style boxing form. The first 4 moves then have a multitude of striking and grappling applications as you then "work the line" later on, the way you're looking is the defensive side and the other the attacking, the angles, leg traps, throws, strikes and dislocations etc. utilise all the Wado principles.

I can explain further if you want.

Steve

Steve

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fullcircle:
[/QUOTE]

Steve, Peter, thank you, very much.

Expect a visitor in your inbox. Check my profile to see my email.

What was fullciricle going to say?

ttt