Bo Kata from the Heian's???

Posted by: Tsuruken

Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/03/02 10:34 PM

What are your thoughts on those who make up a Bo kata using the Heian forms and then call it Kobudo???

Would it not be better to attempt to study a traditional and established form or Bo kata instead of being too lazy, making one up in a hodge podge fashion and then adding it to th myriad of made-up forms already out there?

Is not the traditional bo Kata good enough?

What are your thoughts?
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/04/02 08:19 AM

A while ago I learnt the Yammani Ryu (or is it Yamaneru?) version of Shushi no Kon (or is it Soyeshi no Kon) and after learning the kobujutsu version the kobudo one I learnt seemed empty, meaningless, ineffective.

The real katas are excellent.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/04/02 11:52 AM

Real kobudo kata are excellent, but of course it depends on what you mean as real kata.

Many of the kata practiced in various kobudo systems aren't 100 years old.

Taria Shinken, for example, was well know to encourage various Okinawan Karate Sensei to take exsiting karate kata and change them to weapons kata, and he was also well known for creating additional kobudo kata himself.

If any kobudo exercise, helps you develop skill handling the weapon, its not a wasted effort.

Then, logically as the kobudo weapons are anchronistic today, the study of more traditional kata, would help your personal development. The current political scene will likely drive metal detectors in many public facitlites, eliminating the potential to carry metal weapons. Other body scanners are making carrying even non-metal weaopons likely obselete, too.

So the long range effort behind kobudo, will likely be for personal development.

Just some kobudo thoughts,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Posted by: Seishan

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/04/02 04:43 PM

Hi Ron,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tsuruken:
What are your thoughts on those who make up a Bo kata using the Heian forms and then call it Kobudo???

# In Shotokan, there has long been ongoing debates about Kata such as Jitte (Jutte), Bassai Sho and Kanku Sho as either being Bo Kata previously or create as defense against a Bo.

# In an effort to put an end to this dilemma I have traced back as best as I could and found an older-shoto style version plus a Itosu Jutte version.

# From my research it appears that Itosu introduced the 'strip-the-stick' into the Jitte form. There has been no mention of the kata previously being a Bo/Spear form.

# Most definitely, the Heian/Pinan Kata were created by Itosu for introduction into the PE Program of the Okinawan Schools. They were intended as introductory kata only. They can be performed with a weapon, as can hopscotch but I agree that it should not be confused with a Kobudo kata created with the attributes of the particular weapon in mind.

Would it not be better to attempt to study a traditional and established form or Bo kata instead of being too lazy, making one up in a hodge podge fashion and then adding it to th myriad of made-up forms already out there?

# I concur. Victor made a good point about some kobudo kata coming rom the empty hand kata but it was the principles that were transposed as to be expected. It is not as simple a matter as to simply do a empty hand kata with any sort of weapon IMO.

Is not the traditional bo Kata good enough?

I think they (kobudo) are neglected to the detriment of the art.

What are your thoughts?
[/QUOTE]


# You have them [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regards,
Bob McMahon
Posted by: Tsuruken

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/04/02 08:59 PM

Hi all,

I agree and you have made some excellent points. I know of a Karateka of a Shotokan-Based school in melbourne who has taken the Bo and simply made a "Kata" from the Heian Sandan form. My advice to him was that he should learn the exisiting Bo Kata rather then a hodge-podge form of no real depth or application.
Posted by: Ronin

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/12/02 02:55 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tsuruken:
Hi all,

I agree and you have made some excellent points. I know of a Karateka of a Shotokan-Based school in melbourne who has taken the Bo and simply made a "Kata" from the Heian Sandan form. My advice to him was that he should learn the exisiting Bo Kata rather then a hodge-podge form of no real depth or application.
[/QUOTE]

Dear Ron or should I say Cho Cho San.

What people do in their dojos it is up to them and it is not your business. If you wish to knock people use their names and have it out in the open.

My students enjoy training with the Bo using the Heian katas as a base. It expands their level of skill and shows them another aspect of the martial arts.

Bob makes a few good points however who truely knows what a kata truly teaches as the master who created them are long dead.

At the end of the day. Bo training in Karate is only for ones personal development and enjoyment. It is a pity that so called traditonal martial art instructors such as Ron spend all day knocking people on the NET rather than doing something more practical.
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Tsuruken

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/12/02 07:13 PM

Frank Palmieri,

I do not intend to get involved in a "Flame War' with you so please refrain from the attempts at trying to lump me in with all the other "stirrers" on the internet, To do so is childish, petulant and extremely petty. It only serves to lower yourself so please display some decorum and maturity and lets not see such displays within the future.

The discussion raised is a valid one. My point was sureley one would attempt to find exisiting forms before going on to make up their own.

Perhaps you did not have access to such forms? I don't know???
Posted by: Tsuruken

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/12/02 07:27 PM

Frank,

It seems I have once again managed to somehow offend you. I publically apologise as this was not my intention.

My intention was to start discussion about the pro's and con's of Kobudo kata and the validity of new forms over already existing forms. The discussion thus far has been interesting and who knows, perhaps we can learn something of value from it all as this is the true purposes behind the discussion taking place. If I have offended you I am sorry and have stated so publically which I hope you will be big enough to accept. Lets not start a silly internet war. Instead, put forwrad your reasons for your Bo form, how you developed it, what served as your inspiration, how you devised it etc


[This message has been edited by Tsuruken (edited 06-12-2002).]
Posted by: Ronin

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/12/02 10:53 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tsuruken:
Frank,

It seems I have once again managed to somehow offend you. I publically apologise as this was not my intention.

My intention was to start discussion about the pro's and con's of Kobudo kata and the validity of new forms over already existing forms. The discussion thus far has been interesting and who knows, perhaps we can learn something of value from it all as this is the true purposes behind the discussion taking place. If I have offended you I am sorry and have stated so publically which I hope you will be big enough to accept. Lets not start a silly internet war. Instead, put forwrad your reasons for your Bo form, how you developed it, what served as your inspiration, how you devised it etc


[This message has been edited by Tsuruken (edited 06-12-2002).]
[/QUOTE]

Your apology is accepted. If you would like to know about what I do please Email me and I would be more than happy to explain it to you.

Were does it say in the Martial Arts that instructors cannot change katas and improve on them. The Japanese have been doing it for years. Even Funakoshi changed and developed kata to suit his own needs. Too many karateka believe in secret techniques and magical powers that are contained in certain momements that we all call kata. Give me a break. Katas and waza only work when you apply them correctly.

Frank
Posted by: Tsuruken

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/12/02 11:09 PM

Agreed frank,

Far too many in martial arts put too much value in the importance of so-called "secrets" to the point of missing the true message of the arts.

I glean from your post that your still a little miffed. Time will change all that. You raise some good points so what do others think?

(Tidying up spelling errors)

[This message has been edited by Tsuruken (edited 06-12-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Tsuruken (edited 06-12-2002).]
Posted by: Seishan

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/13/02 06:58 AM

Hello Frank,

Originally posted by Ronin:
"Dear Ron or should I say Cho Cho San."

Just why did you address Ron as Cho Cho San?

Regards,
Bob McMahon
Posted by: Tsuruken

Re: Bo Kata from the Heian's??? - 06/13/02 06:41 PM

Hi Bob,

My guess is because he was upset and thought I was some sort of "stirrer" or "troublemaker" of the likes of "Cho Cho San"???

That's the problem that exists on baords such as this, anyone can post and say anything about anybody. Sadly its the darker side of human nature.

Moving on, I hope Frank will reply and put forwrad his inspiration for his Bo forms as we may all learn something from this. All great martial arts have an element of creativity within otherwise they die out.