Hangetsu Kata

Does anyone have any information on the Shotokan kata Hangetsu? How did it become a Shotokan Kata?

While I can't comment on accuracy (because I am not familiar with this kata), the following link might be useful.
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/kata/hangetsu.html

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ronin:
Does anyone have any information on the Shotokan kata Hangetsu? How did it become a Shotokan Kata?[/QUOTE]

It's my understanding that Hangetsu is the Japanese name for the Seisan kata, a very old kata numerous versions of which are practiced by a wide variety of Okinawan styles. I would think that Funakoshi learned the kata from one of his teachers and took it with him to Japan.

--JA

Indeed Hangetsu is the Shotokan version of Seisan. It was one of the original 15 (or 14 I can't quite remember), Kata taught by Funakoshi. You can tell this as Wado do Seisan and they only do the original 15 that Funikoshi first took with him from Okinawa. Ohtsuka left Funakoshi before the other Shotokan kata were introduced to the Japanese mainland by, I think, Yoshitaka Funakoshi. He was probably taught this kata by Itosu Ankoh who would have been taught it by Bushi Matsumura. Seisan, so Pat Mckarthy once told me, is a Lion Kung Fu form. (please excuse any spelling errors on names as it's not my strong point).

Hi Ronin,
You asked:
"Does anyone have any information on the Shotokan kata Hangetsu? How did it become a Shotokan Kata?"

I am reearching this very topic at the moment. So far it appears to be from the Tomari area passed down to Chojun Oshiro via Iha. Oshiro was Gigo Funakoshi's instructor on Okinawa and Funakoshi Gichin sent his son back to Okinawa a couple of times to learn more kata.

The stance used was the front stance as taught by Funakoshi Gichin. Gigo I believe taught the kata out of fudo-dachi as was his wont and the Motoburyu and another Okinawan Kempo style teach it using naihanchi/kiba dachi.

The latest stance is incomprehensible to me and many other as it appears that a marriage of convenience between the front stance and the sanchin-dachi has been created for reasons unknown. Truly a monstrosity that serves no useful purpose, despite the number of defensive evidence used by many to support its existence.

Currently, I practise it as it is described in Karate-Do kyohan out of front stance. I use Choji dachi, fudo dachi and neko ashi dachi as well as some ofd-fashioned stepping and sliding : ) I retain the use of the name Seishan to distinguish it from Hangetsu and Seisan.

Regards,
Bob McMahon

Hi Bob

You said (regarding Seishan):

>I use Choji dachi, fudo dachi and neko ashi >dachi as well as some ofd-fashioned stepping >and sliding : )

Where does the stepping and sliding come from in the version that you're doing? Could you describe them both?

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike,

In technique #'s, you step with the front foot and slide the back foot up.

7. Using the left leg as a pivot, step to the right with the right foot and perform a right hand inside block in front stance. Retract the right hand and at the same time punch with the left. Retract the left hand while simultaneously punching with the right.

8. Turn to the left (actually turning 180 degrees to face in the opposite direction) and with a slight feeling of yori-ashi perform a left hand inside block. Retract the left hand while punching with the right. Retract the right hand while punching with the left.

9. Transfer the right foot 90 degrees to the right and performing a slight yori-ashi, perform a right hand inside block. Retract the right hand while simultaneously punching with the left. Retract the left hand while
simultaneously punching with the right.

Regards,
Bob

Have you looked at the Sehshan by Funakoshi from his early book "Karate Jutsu" Translated by John Teramoto. This version goes back to the 1920's.

This kata Sehshan is what was transformed into Hangetsu in later years by Funakoshi and the JKA.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Sehshan Kata

There are 41 steps in all, Count out the steps in sets from one to ten, repeating as needed until completion of the kata. Required time about two minutes.

After bowing in heisoku-dachi stand in yoi posture with the hands in fists and the feet opened in hachiji-dachi.

1. With the left hand and foot moving together, step into Line 2 with a motion describing a semicircular path to the right, and block with the left hand (the back of the fist is up) while pulling the right fist to the hip.
2. Simultaneously retract the left fist and extend the right fist in a punch.
3. Moving the right hand and foot in a semi-circular path together, step forward along Line 2 (this is the exact oposite of 1).
4. Simultaneously retract the right fist and extend the left fist in a punch.
5. Repeat the exact same motion as 1 along the same line.
6. Simultaneously retract the left fist and extend the right fist in a punch.
7. Pull both fists in front of the chest and spread the elbows
(the fists are ippon-ken, and the backs of the fists face upwards: refer to Fig. 185).
8. Extend both fists straight ahead, shoulders width apart.
9. Spread both hands with the thumbs and fingers together by raising the elbows to shoulder level on either side of the head, with the elbows bent and the forearms parallel.
10. From that position, lower the arms and extend them while extending the upper body (the palms of the hands face the thighs).
11. Step forward with the right foot ad at the same time pivot on the left leg to turn and face in the opposite direction taking the posture shown in the figure.
12. Maintain the exact posture but turn the right hand over to the left and have a feeling of pulling down slightly in front of the body.
13. Take a step forward along the same line (Line 2) with the right foot and at the same time with the right hand in front of the left shoulder and the left hand just outside the right elbow, pull both hands apart (taking a posture that is the mirror image of Fig. 186).
14. Maintain the same posture and turn the hand over.
15. Step forward along the same line with the left foot and at the same time take the posture shown in Fig 186.
16. Turn the right hand over.
17. Using the left leg as a pivot, step to the right with the right foot and take a right hand blocking posture (refer to Koshokun Fig. 143). (Right Side Block – Victor)
18. Retract the right hand and at the same time punch with the left.
19. Retract the left hand while simultaneously punching with the right. (After the kata has been sufficiently memorized, these two movements should be made as one continuous movement.)
20. Turn to the left (actually turning 180 degrees to face in the opposite direction) and with a slight feeling of yoriashi take a left hand blocking posture (refer to Koshokun Fig. 141). (Left Side Block – Victor)
21. Retract the left hand while punching with the right.
22. Retract the right hand while punching with the left (here
again, these punches should later be done continuously).
23. Transfer the right foot onto Line 2 and performing slight yoriashi take a right hand blocking posture (refer to Pin'an
Shodan Fig. 50).
24. Retarct the right hand while simultaneously punching with the left.
25. Retract the left hand while simultaneously punching with the right (later to be performed continuously).
26. Along the same line pull both hands to the right hip before taking the left hand and swinging it high and to the rear, while at the same time turning and raising the left knee as high as possible, then bring the left fist down in urate (the eyes are fixed looking just beyond the fist).
27. Maintaining the posture of the upper body, unobtrusively slip the right foot over the left, placing it right beside the other.
28. Kick with the left foot toward the tip of the left hand.
29. Bend the left arm halfway, bringing the fist in front of the left shoulder before turning it so that the back of the fist faces upward and immediately thrusting it forward with yoriashi.
30. Immediately retract the left fist and attack with the right.
31. Pull the right fist back to the hip and at the same time make an upper level block with the left arm (this is the same posture that in Pin'an Shodan Fig. 54 except that here the leg is bent).
32. Turn to look to the rear while at the same time bringing the right leg and arm around as high as possible and then striking with urate (the fist should be at mid level; this is opposite of 26).
33. Slip the left foot over and place it down next to the right.
34. As soon as the foot is placed kick with the right foot towards the tip of the right hand.
35. Bending the right arm in half in front of the body immediately twist the fist so that the back is facing up and thrust
together with yoriashi.
36. Retract the right hand and punch simultaneously with the left.
37. Retract the left hand and simultaneously make an upper level
block with the right.
38. Look to the rear and move the left leg and arm together in a strike.
39. Kick the left hand with the right foot in a crescent kick (mikazuki-keri).
40. Retract the left hand and punch with the right.
41. Immediately pull the left foot back, bending both knees and supporting the body on the right leg, and place both hands above
theleft kneecap in a block against a kick. At yame, return to the original posture to conclude the kata.

Hi Bob

Thanks. It looks like you're doing the ashi- and tai-sabaki the same (or similar) as in PM's version. Which is what I thought, just wanted to be sure.

Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ShotoBo:
Hi Mike,

In technique #'s, you step with the front foot and slide the back foot up.

7. Using the left leg as a pivot, step to the right with the right foot and perform a right hand inside block in front stance. Retract the right hand and at the same time punch with the left. Retract the left hand while simultaneously punching with the right.

8. Turn to the left (actually turning 180 degrees to face in the opposite direction) and with a slight feeling of yori-ashi perform a left hand inside block. Retract the left hand while punching with the right. Retract the right hand while punching with the left.

9. Transfer the right foot 90 degrees to the right and performing a slight yori-ashi, perform a right hand inside block. Retract the right hand while simultaneously punching with the left. Retract the left hand while
simultaneously punching with the right.

Regards,
Bob[/QUOTE]

Hi Victor,

So there is no confusion or misunderstanding, instead of retyping all of the instructions for those moves I quoted in my post, I just overlaid the changes that I learned which happens to match the version in Oshima's translation of Karate-Do Kyohan.
The version I learned is the one Oshima refers to in foot notes when he notes the 'new' changes of stance.
Regards,
Bob

Hi Mike,

You said:
Hi Bob
Thanks. It looks like you're doing the ashi- and tai-sabaki the same (or similar) as in PM's version. Which is what I thought, just wanted to be sure.

# Let me make this perectly clear. The version I learned as a member of Seikukan is
as stated. There was a slight step and slide, not quite as full as PM's Aragaki Seisan.

It is not me influencing that kata from m own traing with PM in Aragaki Seisan. Victor backs this up with the description of Seishan that he posts from the 1922 version.
The one I learned was the Mach 2 or 3 : ) that evolved after 1922 and before the current Hangetsu Dachi reared its ugly head.

Regards,
bob

Hi Bob

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ShotoBo:

# Let me make this perectly clear. The version I learned as a member of Seikukan is
as stated. There was a slight step and slide, not quite as full as PM's Aragaki Seisan.

It is not me influencing that kata from m own traing with PM in Aragaki Seisan. Victor backs this up with the description of Seishan that he posts from the 1922 version.
The one I learned was the Mach 2 or 3 : ) that evolved after 1922 and before the current Hangetsu Dachi reared its ugly head.

Regards,
bob[/QUOTE]

I hope you didn't take offence at my comment - certainly none was intended. I'm not at all familiar with the 'Mach 2 or 3' versions. And I'm not personally worried whether or not you have mixed and matched from different versions. Its not an issue for me either way. I was simply interested in what you were doing with the footwork. Where you got it from is a different question and I'm certainly not qualified to question your answer to that.

Thanks once again,

Mike

Hi Mike,

You said:
I hope you didn't take offence at my comment - certainly none was intended.

# None taken, I just wanted to clarify my comments so there could be no confusion.

I'm not at all familiar with the 'Mach 2 or 3' versions. And I'm not personally worried whether or not you have mixed and matched from different versions. Its not an issue for me either way. I was simply interested in what you were doing with the footwork.

# I understand, it is important to me though [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Regards,
Bob

Victor Smith, what lineage was Shimbakuro's Seisan?

Joe,

Shimabuku Tatsuo's Isshinryu Seisan came from Kyan and in turn from Matsumura.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Here's Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu's version:
1) Salutations.
2) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi immediate L.outside block-R. reverse punch (Solar Plexus)-R. outside block (performed in combo, as 1 tech)
3) Crescent sweeping step forward (throughout entire kata) w/ the right foot into R. Pinan dachi into immediate L. reverse punch (S.P.)- L. outside block combo
4) Step forward into L. Pinan-Lead Hand punch
5) Slide back into L. Forward Stance (not too deep) and simultaneous Low Double Fist block-strike (hitting groin/low kick with first 2 knuckles), into R. (rear leg) low whip kick
6)Still in L. forward stance, drop weight while simultaneously performing double outside block (both arms). This tech may also be interpreted as a lapel or double arm grab. Sinking your weight upsets opponent's balance and locks in Ti technique.
7) Quickly step rear (right) foot in front and outside left foot (counter-clockwise spin), immed. Execute X-block at head level, and then low double knife hand block/strike/control to your sides (all done in pinan stance).
8) Step forward with your right into R. 45 degree stance and do right reverse ridge-hand to head/neck and L. hand pull/rear block ( thumb to the side of outer thigh w/ palm facing behind you), then straighten back foot (into Pinan dachi) as you perform snake fist strike to neck/eyes (slight twisting adds torque to tech.). Repeat this combo 2 more times ending with R. forward stance (Pinan Dachi)
9) Step 45 deg. out to L. Pinan stance-double punch-R. low whip kick, R. rev. punch
10) Step 45 deg out to R. Pinan-double punch-L. low whip kick, L. rev. punch
11) Step 45 deg. to the middle into L. Pinan-double punch- R. whip kick, right rev punch, then left outside block
12) Spin clockwise into R. foot forward "L" stance (taisabaki) while simultaneosly performing circular R. strike/block/grab, Right fist protecting Solar Plexus and L. chambered (ti tech not strike).
13) Step forward w/ R. into R. L-Stance and simult. R. overhand backfist.
14) Step back into R. Pinan execute R. outside block (L. chambered)
15) L. ft. steps forward into hidden leg, to R. rear low whip kick
16) Step into R. forward stance-R. down block
17) L. reverse punch (S.P.) into R. outside block-whip kick combo
18) Spin counter clockwise (change-body, again) facing opposite direction into L. outside circular block/strike/grab into L. L-stance
19) Step forward into L. L-stance, do L. overhead backhand, then step back into L. Pinan w/ L. outside block
20) R. foot forward Hidden foot (crooked) stance L. low whip kick
21) Step to R. Pinan stance w/ right low block then L. reverse punch
22) Execute R. outside block/strike-lead leg whip kick and step clockwise into spinning hidden R. outside backfist (L. on top almost straight protecting upper body, R. hidden under L. just outside centerline). You should be in R. forward stance, do left low-block then right rev. punch
23) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi and perform double low knife hand Seisan kicking (foot/leg) trap
24) Throw both hands into double outward half-moon leg "throw". Double knife hand Ti chamber (palms up). Execute Seisan "trap" again (double low shutos, palms down
25) Pull leg to R. knife hand grab/pull (chambering straight back)
26) With left in open hand position (shuto), strike/cross chambered R. hand over open left in closed fist position simult. closing left fist to form low x-block/strike/grab and simultaneously Kiai.
27 Step L. back to right, finishing kata with Matsumura salutation.

Is this rendering similar to Shotokan's Hangetsu kata?

[This message has been edited by omegapoint (edited 03-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by omegapoint (edited 03-09-2002).]

Does anyone have any Video of Hoen Soken doing kata?

Regarding Soken Hohan Footage, the answer is a resounding Yes! I have available high quality colour and black & white footage of Soken Sensei including footage of him performing a Bisento (Okinawan Bladed Pole) form and the kata Patsai. It also contains all of his original Matsumura Seito Kata and Kobudo along with his Hakutsuru and student Kise Fusei demonstrating the Kushanku form.In addition, the footage contains a montage of photo's of Soken, his students and his Dojo. Please go to the "Members Products" section of the KOBGK Paihequan International Web Site at:
http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken

[QUOTE]Originally posted by omegapoint:
Here's Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu's version:
1) Salutations.
2) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi immediate L.outside block-R. reverse punch (Solar Plexus)-R. outside block (performed in combo, as 1 tech)
3) Crescent sweeping step forward (throughout entire kata) w/ the right foot into R. Pinan dachi into immediate L. reverse punch (S.P.)- L. outside block combo
4) Step forward into L. Pinan-Lead Hand punch
5) Slide back into L. Forward Stance (not too deep) and simultaneous Low Double Fist block-strike (hitting groin/low kick with first 2 knuckles), into R. (rear leg) low whip kick
6)Still in L. forward stance, drop weight while simultaneously performing double outside block (both arms). This tech may also be interpreted as a lapel or double arm grab. Sinking your weight upsets opponent's balance and locks in Ti technique.
7) Quickly step rear (right) foot in front and outside left foot (counter-clockwise spin), immed. Execute X-block at head level, and then low double knife hand block/strike/control to your sides (all done in pinan stance).
8) Step forward with your right into R. 45 degree stance and do right reverse ridge-hand to head/neck and L. hand pull/rear block ( thumb to the side of outer thigh w/ palm facing behind you), then straighten back foot (into Pinan dachi) as you perform snake fist strike to neck/eyes (slight twisting adds torque to tech.). Repeat this combo 2 more times ending with R. forward stance (Pinan Dachi)
9) Step 45 deg. out to L. Pinan stance-double punch-R. low whip kick, R. rev. punch
10) Step 45 deg out to R. Pinan-double punch-L. low whip kick, L. rev. punch
11) Step 45 deg. to the middle into L. Pinan-double punch- R. whip kick, right rev punch, then left outside block
12) Spin clockwise into R. foot forward "L" stance (taisabaki) while simultaneosly performing circular R. strike/block/grab, Right fist protecting Solar Plexus and L. chambered (ti tech not strike).
13) Step forward w/ R. into R. L-Stance and simult. R. overhand backfist.
14) Step back into R. Pinan execute R. outside block (L. chambered)
15) L. ft. steps forward into hidden leg, to R. rear low whip kick
16) Step into R. forward stance-R. down block
17) L. reverse punch (S.P.) into R. outside block-whip kick combo
18) Spin counter clockwise (change-body, again) facing opposite direction into L. outside circular block/strike/grab into L. L-stance
19) Step forward into L. L-stance, do L. overhead backhand, then step back into L. Pinan w/ L. outside block
20) R. foot forward Hidden foot (crooked) stance L. low whip kick
21) Step to R. Pinan stance w/ right low block then L. reverse punch
22) Execute R. outside block/strike-lead leg whip kick and step clockwise into spinning hidden R. outside backfist (L. on top almost straight protecting upper body, R. hidden under L. just outside centerline). You should be in R. forward stance, do left low-block then right rev. punch
23) Step back into L. Pinan Dachi and perform double low knife hand Seisan kicking (foot/leg) trap
24) Throw both hands into double outward half-moon leg "throw". Double knife hand Ti chamber (palms up). Execute Seisan "trap" again (double low shutos, palms down
25) Pull leg to R. knife hand grab/pull (chambering straight back)
26) With left in open hand position (shuto), strike/cross chambered R. hand over open left in closed fist position simult. closing left fist to form low x-block/strike/grab and simultaneously Kiai.
27 Step L. back to right, finishing kata with Matsumura salutation.

Is this rendering similar to Shotokan's Hangetsu kata?

[This message has been edited by omegapoint (edited 03-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by omegapoint (edited 03-09-2002).][/QUOTE]

Hi, I was looking over this description of Siesan but I cant make head nor tail of it, Can anyone clear up a few bits and pieces or point me to a video/illustration of this version of the kata.

The things I'm unclear on are:

What is Pinan dachi? I got the impression it was a front stance, but front stance is explicitly stated.
What is meant by a low bouble fist block (are u punching downward/ doing a low x-block etc)?
What is meant by a 45degree stance? Are we stepping at a 45d angle and if so what stance are u in?
From step 12 onward Im confused
L-stance?
Hidden leg?
Then steps 23 - 26 just loose me completely.

Anyone who knows this form and can help it would be appreciated!

While not versed in Matsumura Orthodox, I did see Kise Sensei run Kusnaku several decades before and was struck how close it was to Isshinryu's in execution.

I suspect the questions about stance lie in the older Okinawan tradition where names weren't used. The Hogen karate tradition didn't even have a term for block or strike, instead using the term 'place the hand here'.

In Isshinryu transmission we similarily have Seisan dachi, Seiunchin Dachi and Nihanchi Dachi, as terms for stances from each of those kata.

It seems only when karate went public, as in the schools and especially in Japan, did a technical Japanese vocabluary begin to develop. Hohen Soken was not part of those times, sidstepping a number of decades in Okinawa to work in South America, and didn't return till after WWII. So its reasonable his terms were in the older vein.

Only a Matsumura Orthodox practitioner can fully explain these questions, and even then the best answer is direct experience, as it was originally taught.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Victor Smith:

It seems only when karate went public, as in the schools and especially in Japan, did a technical Japanese vocabluary begin to develop. [/QUOTE]

It sounds like something good did actually come out of japanifying karate practice. One must admit communication does become easier with standardised terms.

Unfortunately I don't think its that simple. That in turn gave rise to the one definition about what the purpose of karate was.

Words are tricky, when you define something you often are hiding other things at the same time.

Take 'uke' or block, defining 'place the arm here' such a way limits a very vast range of potential. Where the arm could be a strike, or the arm could be to move the opponent to a more strategic situation, or there are layers of execution for that 'uke' all of which are different.

If anything the rise of terms made teaching large groups simpler, and at the same time took the karate in directions far from the original intent, when it was taught non-verbaly through direct contact with the instructor.

Long ago when I began teaching I limited the size of my student population to not let the group get in the way of a personal relationship to their training.

Words then are both good and bad, and to explain what karate is, they hide far more than they reveal, IMVHO.

Which explains why I use so many words to try and say something simple. I don't know enough to give up I guess.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Victor,

I understand what you mean, but I feel it was the lack of explanation that was more to blame for karate's change in direction, and the lack of explanation was very deliberate.

Words are tools like any other, used correctly they are helpful. Had Funakoshi's students been told that a block is not just a block I doubt we would have had the same issues as we are having today.

I think it is quite clear Funakoshi used his developing Japanese karate program to become a physical training program, more consistent with modern physical education, than as martial training.

That does not imply they didn't drive students to the maximum, just that karate as martial training was extremely secondary. Read Nicole's Moving Zen to see how in the 60's anybody using karate on the streets would be suspended from their system for a long time.

A large part of karate came from the personal intersection between instructor and student, something that is left behind in large group setting, no matter how hard they drill.

And it is questionable that Funakoshi is complete the individual who did all of it. Actually he didn't do much of the instruction as he was aging. He was the prime mover in of the Shotokan, but others with less training really did most of it. If anything they instutationalized the development of instructors with less knowledge as the art.

I once met Shimabuku Zenpo, of the Seibukan, who explained on Okinawa nobody would train with a Ni Dan, everyone wanted somebody who had been in the arts for say 40 or 50 years. After all Okinawa has some idea what karate could be.

Within 10 years of Funakoshi's arival there were many, many groups teaching his art, and the instructors had less knowledge of what the art could be. So the developing vocabulary that was developed, became the totality of the training. At least it seems that way to me.

A very complex issue that can't be done justice without lots of study.

Victor Smith

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shonuff:
Hi, I was looking over this description of Siesan but I cant make head nor tail of it, Can anyone clear up a few bits and pieces or point me to a video/illustration of this version of the kata.

The things I'm unclear on are:

What is Pinan dachi? I got the impression it was a front stance, but front stance is explicitly stated.
What is meant by a low bouble fist block (are u punching downward/ doing a low x-block etc)?
What is meant by a 45degree stance? Are we stepping at a 45d angle and if so what stance are u in?
From step 12 onward Im confused
L-stance?
Hidden leg?
Then steps 23 - 26 just loose me completely.

Anyone who knows this form and can help it would be appreciated![/QUOTE]

Pinan dachi, is not the Japanese zenkutsu. It's a natural front/forward stance, meaning that the length is moderate as is the width. To test for the proper stance length do a basic small forward stance (natural walking stance), next bend your knees so that both legs are "springy". Always bend your knees. Your front foot faces forward, your rear foot is at 45 degrees (towards the corner of the room). Bend down to the floor with your rear leg so that your rear knee is now beside your front ankle. This is the accurate length for you. Next to test width make sure that your knee is 2 of your fist widths (side-by-side) from the other ankle. This will be about your shoulder width. That's a Pinan Dachi. Like Vic said the older styles used their own non-Japanized terms, because each shinshii had variations in their respective ryuha and even in dojos of the same ryu. Plus the Okinawan were not caught up in the formality of putting specific terms to things. "The hand-- like this. No, no! Too much hand!"- was a typical explanation.

The low double fist block is really a double fisted knuckle strike to a low rising front kick (on the instep) -or- a kick parry or even catch-kick. Or a throw or a myriad of applications. There was no specific term for it and it is done in a downward whipping fashion while changing-body.

Stepping out at 45 degrees means to step offline or laterally or diagonally, getting out of the way. It's called change-body. I already detailed the Pinan Stance which is the forward or front stance we use. A 45 degree stance is an elongated L-stance (where the heels are together), the rear foot at 45 degrees. This stance is done with the same length as a Pinan Dachi. It is one of our fighting stances and is almost exactly the same as the GJJ fighting stance, the old bare-knuckle boxing guard, or a shortened fencing stance.

Hidden foot stance= kakushi dachi. Does that make it clearer? If not, oh well, go learn from a good Seito sensei. You'll get it then. Also understand that you perform a kakaushi-geri or hidden (whip) kick after stepping on the opponents foot. I know, it's still foggy.

I tried to give you descriptions of an old version of Seisan before it was simplified for beginners. This a more Southern Chuan Fa looking form than a lot of other Shorin kata and is not even seen in Kobayashi and Matsubayashi. The Isshin version is much simpler, with many things omitted and the Shobayashi version is a much lower and wider stanced form, with certain elements missing.

Also you'll hear people say that Naihanchi is Shorin's Sanchin. That's half true, it is for lower body hardening and upper body "suppleness" training. Seisan is our breathing kata. It teaches one how to breathe correctly (controlled) while executing multiple block/strike/lock/throw/strike combos, along with the subtleties of tai sabaki and ashi sabaki. It is one of our Shodan kata.

Steps 23-26 should be confusing. You have never done Matsumura Shorin, why should you "get it" without ever even seeing it? Like I said this is a "BB" form, a kata that no BB in any style other than MOSR would even begin to master without a year or two of hard diligent repetition with good instruction. Your a sub-novice.

I'm sorry if my descriptions were weird. They should be. You shouldn't be able to learn or try and learn kata or real karate on the net or with private research. That's unsmart. It's like trying to learn Orthopedic surgery without going through the necessary and lengthy steps needed to get to that point. I wanted to detail how different even the same ryu's forms can be.

If you're trying to be nit-picky and just a contrarian you'll only make yourself look like a silly. I guarantee you that what I do is more real than you can imagine and more detailed in its simplicity than most karate styles you'll ever encounter. It takes most karate-ka, who switch from other styles, many years to get rid of bad habits and silly methodologies learned in P.E. karate. Sorry if that sounds mean or arrogant, but it is fact. Seen it dozens of times.

You will wear a white belt in the dojo if you're not a BB in Matsumura Seito (no matter your rank in another style). BTW we only have 2 belts; white and black. My sensei often has newbies learn to "walk" correctly before they ever do a thing. That usually takes even yudansha level karate-ka from other styles one entire class period (about 6-7 hours) to begin to accomplish correctly. That's also from old-style Okinawan karate training. Before you fight you have to know how to breathe and walk, and not in that order necessarily.

There may even be some errors in that original reply. I remember typing it and thinking "I hope I don't start wasting time giving out all my styles secrets on the friggin' net". You slick bastarrds! I'm none-too-swift. Guess that's what's happened since then! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Questions?





[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 12-01-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Multiversed:

Steps 23-26 should be confusing. You have never done Matsumura Shorin, why should you "get it" without ever even seeing it? Like I said this is a "BB" form, a kata that no BB in any style other than MOSR would even begin to master without a year or two of hard diligent repetition with good instruction. Your a sub-novice.

I'm sorry if my descriptions were weird. They should be. You shouldn't be able to learn or try and learn kata or real karate on the net or with private research. That's unsmart. It's like trying to learn Orthopedic surgery without going through the necessary and lengthy steps needed to get to that point. I wanted to detail how different even the same ryu's forms can be.

If you're trying to be nit-picky and just a contrarian you'll only make yourself look like a silly. I guarantee you that what I do is more real than you can imagine and more detailed in its simplicity than most karate styles you'll ever encounter. It takes most karate-ka, who switch from other styles, many years to get rid of bad habits and silly methodologies learned in P.E. karate. Sorry if that sounds mean or arrogant, but it is fact. Seen it dozens of times.

You will wear a white belt in the dojo if you're not a BB in Matsumura Seito (no matter your rank in another style). BTW we only have 2 belts; white and black. My sensei often has newbies learn to "walk" correctly before they ever do a thing. That usually takes even yudansha level karate-ka from other styles one entire class period (about 6-7 hours) to begin to accomplish correctly. That's also from old-style Okinawan karate training. Before you fight you have to know how to breathe and walk, and not in that order necessarily.

[This message has been edited by Multiversed (edited 12-01-2004).][/QUOTE]

Multiversed, You were doing so well! A straight-forward question and you were gving a straight-forward answer... and then you degenerated into another rant about the superiority of your style... sigh!

I'm sure I told you in the Karate or Jujutsu post, I dont care! I'm just curious to compare the differences between the various versions of Siesan. If you don't want to share thats fine [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

Thanks for the input anyway, and nice seeing you again.

By the way, is this the same form as is detailed above? http://www.dentokanhombu.com/video/shorin/seisan.mpg

Good training!

Multiverse made an interesting point, one that has been made by even some within Isshinryu.

“I tried to give you descriptions of an old version of Seisan before it was simplified for beginners. This a more Southern Chuan Fa looking form than a lot of other Shorin kata and is not even seen in Kobayashi and Matsubayashi. The Isshin version is much simpler, with many things omitted and the Shobayashi version is a much lower and wider stanced form, with certain elements missing.”

This goes back to very old discussions about the true source of kata.

From a visual comparison of technique there may be a point, but I don’t think this is an answer that explains the full issues.
One of Chinaba’s students published a large book on kata in the 70’s in Japan, in there they showed Matsumura No Seisan, which except for Isshinryu style technique execution, is almost identical to the current standard Isshinryu Seisan kata.
Which poses other questions. Isshinryu’s founder first began in Shorinryu around 1916 with his Uncle, and with Seisan kata. Was that similar to the Chinaba lineage Matsumura No Seisan? Was a version like that taught by Kyan (who taught differently at different times). Or did Isshinryu’s founder work the changes he used out himself?

In reality there is no proof what the source Seisan (or many other kata were) kata was, and thus are forms simplified, or were they jazzed up from the origins, cannot be proven. Each school likely has their own answer,

The suggestion that the kata should be linked to Southen Chaun Fa, is interesting, but to date I’ve not seen anything that approximates Okinawan forms in the Chinese systems I’ve seen. [I’m not referring to the training I’ve had in Northern systems that do not resemble the southern ones.] Of course this is just a personal opinion, for I would be delighted to see a credible source for Okinawn technique.

Isshinryu’s source was Kyan, and if you get a chance to see the different Seisan versions from Kyan’s students, you will be first struck they are all different from each other. Kyan has been reputed to teach his technique differently at different times to different people. So the source for Isshinryu Seisan, may truthfully be
Shimabuku Tatuso just simplified the form, or he may have discarded useless material, or something else.

I vote for something else, and an answer that is more consistent with Okinawan kata drift across the years and various instructors. [If you think Seisan’s interesting, check out the 16 or so versions of Patsai originating on Okinawa.]

I see the difference is that a different attack was being visualized and a more appropriate response to that attack was the reason for the change. Thus if the kata choice completed the defense without the presence of a kick, the kick was not in the resulting kata version. That doesn’t mean something was deleted, its that the kata answers a different paradigm.

Of course this understanding is based on an older premise that there was a single primary use for a technique. Today’s fractal studies of kata movement, offer such a vastly different paradigm, it would be likely less than useful to use it to try and understand the past.

It is also probable that the source use of kata was to train to the students needs. So if a student’s kicking ability was not going to be strong, upper body answers may have been taught and so forth. As Karate developed in a personal training environment, with no source documentation for what the past was, except what your instructor shared, the issue of what the ‘true’ original kata was moot. Totally a non-issue except for drinking discussion, IMVHO.

If I use Isshinryu as an example, it is far less one right way to do the system than many expect. In the late 50’s when my instructor(s) trained, Shimabuku Sensei taught different people the same kata different ways. It appears he continued to do so. For example in 1964 when he taught in Pittsburgh for 6 months he was using the twisting punch, but by 1966 he had returned to the vertical punch for the system. My instructor was taught to use both methods of striking, in different kata. Within an hour of my house I know two different Isshinryu karate-ka who were trained with the turning punch method years ago.

Likewise my instructors taught many variations on the kata. On the whole they are small, but each is a different kata version, and the source was Isshinryu’s founder, either directly or indirectly. I retain much of that tradition in my students studies today.

Multiverse may well be right, it’s just I don’t see evidence to accept those answers at this time. From a reality point of view, it makes no difference as my students work hard at making their current study work.

On a large picture view I doubt anyone trained in another version of Seisan would switch to mine, and in turn I have no interesting in switching to the others. I’ve trained in a few, and appreciate learning for its own sake, but you only need an art you believe in.

Seisan is of interest to me. If you look at the available record of Okinawan performance, the absolute best Seisan for power I’ve seen is the younger Hiagonna Morio, and the best group of Okinawan karate-ka performing Seisan are the Uechi ones. If reviewing a video tape was a requirement to pick an instructor, those would be my choices. But that wasn’t and isn’t my criteria. I’m only concerned about learning and making my students better.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Shonuff,

I just dug out my Soken Hohen videos, which have him doing maybe 20 kata, trying to see his Seisan, but unfortunately all that was there was him doing a piece of Seisan's opening. They were gifts from friends in Seito, long ago, compiled from several sources. It's always best to try and go back to source in research when possible.

I was hoping to try and answer some of your questions, but the sources who have shared with me, a bit, just didn't cover it.

The video clip of Seisan you showed is the Seisan out of Shimabuku Zenryu/Zempo, in Kyan lineage. It's very, very close to S. Zempo's Seisan and I suspect that school is related to the Seibukan.

How close it is to the Seito, remains a research project, but I'll see what I can work out.

The interesting thing about MA research, is if you put your heart in it, others do too.

Someday we may have an answer to the Seisan question after all. I think I have maybe 20 different Seisan's around here at this time, the clearly show a common root (including the Goju and Uechi versions, too), and divergence at the same time.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Thank you very much Victor, it is most appreciated!

I was wondering if in your research you might compare Hangetsu of the Shotokan system to what you find and let me know if you can detect possible reasons for the changes. I have some Ideas of my own, but not much in the way of research material!

Also I rememmber reading McCarthy's book classical Okinawan Kata, and noting that his Siesan began with a step backward? Am I remembering this correctly and if so is it unique to that version of the kata?

Once again your help is greatly appreciated Victor and I look forward to discussing your findings with you!!

Double posted!

[This message has been edited by Shonuff (edited 12-11-2004).]

I believe at the time McCarthy Sensei created his text on Okinawan kata, he was a student of Richard Kim. Okinawan karate has a larger 'truth' than any one system. For a group of systems all created on top of each other (Okinawa is a rather small island after all), the most common truth besids don't document anything, was change it as you need to.

Hence the long record of various instrutors changing their kata, kata execution, etc. often many times in their life time.

Soken was known to do that, so was Kyan, and many others. I'm also sure there were those who did not change, but with so many different variations springing up in all the kata, change likely was the real goal, using the karate they studied to make it more effective for themselves or their individual students.

So McCarthy Sensei's Seisan opening by stepping back, getting away from a fast opponent, creating a hole to draw them into his response, is as much a standard as moving in to jam the same opponent, the more standard version.

Does it make much difference? One of the variations of movement study actually does this with every movment of at kata, and it came from anther groups inspired Okinawan training.

For your question about why was Hangetsu changed? First it was originally called Sehshan (Seisan/Sesan) in his 'Karate Jutsu'.

The name was changed to conform to Japanese sensibilites, such as generally dropping Chinese references as the Japanese were making war on China in those days, and weren't interested in linking the art to China.

But as to why the kata changed, was it Funakoshi Sensei, his son, or was it others within the developing JKA who changed things is not clearly documented. Regardless of the source, Funakoshi Sensei appears to have given it his seal of approval. Why not he was Okinawan and knew that things kept changing anyway.

Of course he gave strict instructions that kata should not be changed by students, ever, especially ironic as he had participated in change first.. but the Sensei always knows best (being ironic).

Without some treasure trove of documentation, there is nothing else except for oral history. Fascinating thing oral history.

Victor Smith

Just found some old research you may find interesting on Matsumura Seito and Seisan.
Unfortunately I can't find which Matsumura Seito site it was from, and web sites are not necessarily good proof, but they are what they are.

Anyhow on Matsumura Seito Seisan.... ""The Shuri-te version (which was also taught by Fusei Kise) is quite different, and evolved differently, or so they say... As for the Shuri-te version, some say that Takahara Peichin passed it down. Some claim that Matsumura also practiced it, but that claim is questionable, or at least, it is believed by some that he did not include it in his personal system.

Fusei Kise probably got it from one of his teachers who studied under Kyan Chotoku. Some claim that Kyan got it from Bushi Matsumura, but that claim is also questionable.

Some claim that early on, Hohan Soken taught a version of this kata. We have not been able to substantiate it, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility. We just know that it was not taught by him later in life. Another kata we are sure about that he apparently had and decided not to teach is Sanchin. He said that Sanchin teaches the same principles as Naihanchi, so, he said, why be redundant? This may have been the same reason he did away with his verison of Seisan, if he had one, since Gojushiho teaches the same things as it does. "

As everything, including anything Post, believe it or not, but that was sitting in my Seisan research library.

Victor

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Victor Smith:

Of course he gave strict instructions that kata should not be changed by students, ever, especially ironic as he had participated in change first.. but the Sensei always knows best (being ironic).
[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about this. In Karatedo Kyohan, Funakoshi states simply that kata are changed to reflect different teachers interpretations and understandings of the kata and that it is a normal thing. He didnt say anything about not changing the kata. I always got theimpression that came purely out of the Japanese sense of tradition.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Victor Smith:

This may have been the same reason he did away with his verison of Seisan, if he had one, since Gojushiho teaches the same things as it does. "

[/QUOTE]

It does? I never learned Gojushiho, what is it supposed to teach... for that matter what is Siesan supposed to teach in the okinawan scheme of things??

Shonuff,

Now remember I didn't write the piece about Soken (just copied it) <GRIN>, I took it to mean, there are common elements in the kata such as the block, punch, punch, front kick then punch, and because of that he felt it redundant. In that sense the lessons are the actual techniques. The simplest answer is likely the best.

More telling I've just started to receive some 3rd hand information from South America about Soken's teaching there for decades before he returned to Okinawa in the 50's. He spent what 30 or so years there in Argentina, missing the war years. There was an Okinawan population in Brazil and Argentina and he mostly taught within that community, and only had one non-Okinawan student, alas the gentleman died about 20 years ago.

I think I got an answer to one of your original questions about the Seito Seisan, the whipping kick was a mawashi geri, according to my friend.

Believe me what I've gotten isn't proof and I'm not going to discuss it further, just trying to close those questions.

It is very difficult to accept any internet source, even from trusted friends. Things that can be shown in an instant on the floor, sometimes take books to describe and then are open to wrong interpretations.

But I find Seisan/Hangetsu talk interesting.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

Just in the interest of Seisan research I found an interview with Hohen Soken on his art. It's on e-budo.com at http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthre...Matsumura+Seito

You'll note when he lists his kata Seisan is not there.

"Sensei: I teach the Matsumura kata. The kata that I teach now are pinan shodan, pinan nidan, naihanchi shodan, naihanchi nidan, patsai-sho and dai, chinto, gojushiho, kusanku, rohai ichi-ni-san, and last, the hakutsuru."

Assuming he did not mispeak it would appear that Seisan was not in his Matsumura kata curricula. No doubt he knew the form but it appears he didn't claim it.

Victor

Thanks for the link Victor.

I saw this and had to post it in light of some of views expressed in this forum.

"I should also state that Matsumura Orthodox is not the only authentic shorin-ryu style. This style, my style, was passed on from Matsumura Sokon to my uncle, Nabe-tanmei but Nabe-tanmei was not Bushi Matsumura's only student. Matsumura had a good dozen or so dedicated students. Each one learned his methods and then expanded on them."

Am I correct in believing that Itosu and Azato were students of Bushi Matsumura.

I am in the Itosu lineage and we are supposed to be decended from bushi matsumora (sp). We do not do a seisan kata, and I was unaware that anyone in a shorin lineage did. I have only heard of it being used in naha and tomari styles. It is said that it was one of chojun myagis favourites and I know that it is used in some schools of uechi ryu, but that is as much as I have ever heard about it.

Reaperback,

Seisan is found within many Okinawn systems, being one of the more universal older kata. In fact some groups used it for the first kata one studied. Most of Kyan Chotoku's students used Seisan, the one exception being Nagamine (Matsubayshi) where it is speculated as he had prior training, either he or Kyan felt Seisan wasn't needed.

Each of the wide range of groups, Tomari, Uechi, Goju and the Shorin ones Seisan have a pattern link showing some underlying similiarity, as well as the stylistic difference one would expect.

Apparently there are a number claiming Seisan as a Matsumura kata but I've see at least 3 different versions with that name alone.

Among the more interesting is the piece of Seisan being shown as a cutaway group drill in Motobu's sons Japanese video tape, but I've not seen it documented anywhere else.

If there is a difference between the groups thinking, in Kyan lineage it was the beginning kata, in the Goju and Uechi lineage it is a very advanced kata.

Victor Smith

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Victor Smith:
Reaperback,

Seisan is found within many Okinawn systems, being one of the more universal older kata. In fact some groups used it for the first kata one studied. Most of Kyan Chotoku's students used Seisan, the one exception being Nagamine (Matsubayshi) where it is speculated as he had prior training, either he or Kyan felt Seisan wasn't needed.

Victor Smith[/QUOTE]

Yes, we do not do Seisan in Matsubayashi. Nagamine originally trained with Iha Kodatsu, a top student of Kosaku Matsumora from whom he learned Wankan, Rohai, Wanshu, Passai, and possibly Gojushiho. Nagamine then learned Chinto and Kusanku from Anichi Arakaki, a young talented student of Kyan who died in the 1920's at an early age. Nagamine then studied with Kyan as a police officer to further his understanding of Chinto and Kusanku. Nagamine's base in Kosaku's kata were enough so that Seisan was not needed and he felt his time with Kyan was better spent studying the more advanced kata of Kyan.