Perhaps this says it best....

Posted by: Victor Smith

Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/06/08 06:05 AM

Goshi Yamaguchi Saiko Shihan, Shigeki Yamada Shihan and Horst Baumgurtel Yokyo are demonstration kata and bunkai at a Budo festival in Germany
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yiYYudWVRM&feature=related
Posted by: nahate

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/06/08 10:15 AM

The production values are excellent and the demonstration of bunkai so closely related to the kata performance is something I've advocated for a long time.

I'm not sure what the "best" Victor thinks it says is. The florid, overreaching, too large techniques and the longer distance, Japanized bunkai they inspire define the adulteration of Goju Ryu by Yamaguchi. To me what this video shows best is why I prefer Okinawan Goju Ryu's close and brutal kata and bunkai to its Japanese sibling.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/06/08 10:43 AM

Not my style, but I'll give credit where it is due. These are very skilled and knowledgeable karateka.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/06/08 12:14 PM

as a demo/entertainment I think it was really good,

not my type of karate by a long way however. far to neat and formal!
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/06/08 01:58 PM

I'm not looking at the demonstration application of kata technique, though they are very good.

I see the skill of the individual, and frankly they're far better than most I've seen.

Application wise no system is better than any other.
There is just technique and skill using it, which entails tactics, and strategy as well as technique execution.
Posted by: CVV

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/06/08 02:28 PM

Quote:

The production values are excellent and the demonstration of bunkai so closely related to the kata performance is something I've advocated for a long time.

I'm not sure what the "best" Victor thinks it says is. The florid, overreaching, too large techniques and the longer distance, Japanized bunkai they inspire define the adulteration of Goju Ryu by Yamaguchi. To me what this video shows best is why I prefer Okinawan Goju Ryu's close and brutal kata and bunkai to its Japanese sibling.



Goshi Yamaguchi was born in 1942. If this is shot in recent years, he still in pretty good shape. A friend of mine trained with him at seminars in Holland in the 80ies and was very impressed by his kumite skills.

Today many kata are performed 'oversized' due to competition. Cfr an earlier post from Vikor Smith on Goju-Kai kata. You see the older footage being performed less 'oversized'. But thinking that the Goju-kai does not know the 'close' and 'brutal' way, you are far off. Most of these karateka have trained in Okinawa or by Okinawan teachers.
Posted by: nahate

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/07/08 02:19 PM

I was referring to Gogen Yamaguchi as the one whose Goju was a pale imitation of the Okinawan art. His innovations added nothing and took a lot away. Witness some of the video shown on this site earlier that had people jumping around in cat stance in a laughable parody of kumite. Gogen only had at best a few years training under Miyagi. Okinawan and mainland karate practitioners had very little direct communication for a considerable time following the War. I had many opportunities to train with some long-time Goju Kai practitioners in the early seventies who were interested in the Okinawan roots. Their techniques were very large, to the extent of leaving the original intent of kata movement entirely.

There has been a decided improvement in kata since then. The emphasis on jiu kumite introduced by the Cat still, in my opinion, misleads the practitioner. The cat stance ready positions and the arms length bunkai reflect that provenance. Still, it is far better than it was decades ago, and the video does show real skill. I've seen and trained with far better, though.

Quote:


Application wise no system is better than any other.
There is just technique and skill using it, which entails tactics, and strategy as well as technique execution.



I'm not sure how you separate out your second sentence from the first as if to oppose them. In fact the latter simply defines the former. And I think the assertion that all systems are equal with respect to application is patent nonsense. I'm not arguing specifics here, but surely, Victor, you can't truly believe that every "system", no matter where it comes from or who advances it, provides equally effective methodology to train genuine fighting skill? What's his name with his devastating comet punch, or Count Dante, for example?
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/07/08 04:09 PM

nahate,

Frankly I don't find systems exist only individuals who train.

30 years ago I tried to make the point to a Shotokan stylist you made how Okinawan inside fighting techinque was superior. As I spoke he exloded back into a deep zenkatsu dachi and then put his front kick in my mouth with control.

Perhaps his explosive technique wasn't Shotokan standard, but I learned a lesson, it is the person not a style that faces you.

I've never found systems exist, rather instructors who dojo by dojo do their best, which is very uneven at best, they're not all equal, be they Japanese styles, Okinawan styles, Korean, American, etc.

Generalizations might hold some merit, but in the end you never face a generalization but an individual and your knowledge of a generalization doesn't give you a clue what one can do.

As you stated Goju-kai did change over time, so does everyone.

There are those who have spent 40 or so years directly under a senior (and few of them) who have a legitimate claim of direct succession, and then there is everything else.

pleasantly,
Posted by: CVV

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/07/08 05:08 PM

Quote:

I was referring to Gogen Yamaguchi as the one whose Goju was a pale imitation of the Okinawan art. His innovations added nothing and took a lot away. Witness some of the video shown on this site earlier that had people jumping around in cat stance in a laughable parody of kumite. Gogen only had at best a few years training under Miyagi. Okinawan and mainland karate practitioners had very little direct communication for a considerable time following the War. I had many opportunities to train with some long-time Goju Kai practitioners in the early seventies who were interested in the Okinawan roots. Their techniques were very large, to the extent of leaving the original intent of kata movement entirely.

There has been a decided improvement in kata since then. The emphasis on jiu kumite introduced by the Cat still, in my opinion, misleads the practitioner. The cat stance ready positions and the arms length bunkai reflect that provenance. Still, it is far better than it was decades ago, and the video does show real skill. I've seen and trained with far better, though.




Gogen Yamaguchi's main teacher was Jitsuei Yogi, an Okinawan student of Miyagi who helped setup the Ristumeikan university karate club with Yamaguchi and brought Miyagi to demonstrate at the universities of Ritsumeikan, Osaka and Kyoto. He later was in the board of directors of JKF Goju-kai. As to his technical expertise, he was the demonstration partner with Miyagi in front of the crown prince in 1935. Jitsuei Yogi stayed within Yamaguchi's Goju-kai till 1973 when this organization splitted into Yamaguchi's Goju-kai and JKF Goju-kai. Yogi was vice president and special advisor to JKF Goju-Kai. As was Miyazato and Koshin Iha. Meitoku Yagi was a personal friend to Yamaguchi and Yamaguchi's sons received training from Yagi.
It is true that JKF Goju-Kai as well as Yamaguchi's organization have put much focus on sport karate especially in the universities. But I have trained with teachers from JKF Goju-kai on other things than sport karate, including brutal and close fighting techniques.
I would love to know who possesses this knowledge of original intent of kata movement.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/07/08 05:26 PM

Quote:


I would love to know who possesses this knowledge of original intent of kata movement.



Without a doubt, it is someone that argues alot on forums, as we all seem to think we do lol!

Seriously though, there's good Karate and bad Karate.

Particularly in today's world I would hope that one understands that you don't need direct connection or lineage to an Okinawan master to neccessarily have good Karate, certainly it might help but princples exist regardless of someone's lineage and that is the important thing...right?
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Perhaps this says it best.... - 09/08/08 05:01 PM

Thats easy, it's Unyu/debushi. duh!