Reversing embusen for kata bunkai

Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 08:43 AM

There are only one or 2 moves in goju kata that I "reverse" in bunkai and I'm not sure what to make of these. I wonder whether -

(a) the kata were deliberately designed that way "as a code" (something I think is a bit overstated nowadays); or
(b) the kata were deliberately designed that way for an application I haven't seen; or
(c) the kata were deliberately designed that way for training or symbolic purposes (eg. stepping forward on the last move in gekisai dai ichi), not for any particular bunkai; or
(d) the kata have been wrongly passed down in respect of a particular move.

Consider the following move from sanseru kata at about 7:38 in the following video of Higaonna Morio sensei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBdkOYQGoE.

In most kaiha it is performed as a leg catch with a step back - see the following video at about 0:48: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoXQbRCZNmQ.

The problem is that the kata is performed with a step forward. I think it is practically impossible to catch a kick as it moves out - you stand a much better chance of letting the kick pass its maximum velocity and then catch it just before/just as he is about to retract it. To my mind this requires a step back, not forward.

Tou'on ryu (and some goju schools) make sense of the leg catch by going right down to the ground and scooping at the ankle. I think this has "hairs" on it, but it does make some sense of the move.

My best guess is however that the move was probably meant to involve a step back. What say you? Similar moves in CMA have a step back in the form. Consider this move at 0:26 which is a block but can be converted into a leg catch:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDaHVXzmccE.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 09:14 AM

Question: if you work the kata backwards do you hear lyrics about the devil? j/k

My newbie 2 cents: I don't think working a kata backwards has any positive benefits. I think it's better to work off of 'keys' and see how they can be plugged into the kata. For example, one key idea could be to look for tai sabaki/off line movements and interpret as a throw. Going through the kata, looking for throws, and what came immediately before and after to find discreet sections. What comes out of that? Nothing? Move on.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 10:11 AM

Thanks harlan

You might be right. But how would you explain the example above?
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 10:46 AM

Dan,

Depends on where you want to catch the leg. Moving backwards is easier to time,but you would catch the end of the leg. Stepping forward gets you 'in' ,as is the nature of goju, for grappling techniques.

The bunaki shown in the clip is incorrect to me. Notice how he steps back to catch the leg, then steps forward. Too much wasted movement there. What keeps the attacker at bay while you go back and forth?

Another thing to consider is this. I see people's bunkai as someone always attacking from directly infront of you and from a distance. It changes the dynamics a bit if you think of your attacker located somewhere people might actually attack from,lol.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 11:45 AM

Hello Dan:

Using link #2 any chance that "catch" is on the wrong side (ie should be done to the outside rather than the inside)??? That would make the forward movement very beneficial...

What about the forward motion itself (ie changing the angle)? Such that not straight but angled is how you end up, as the clip showed. The leg lock shown obviously works but could have range issues on the inside depending on the reach and how the opponents ankle is cradled/locked.

Lots of us have struggled with assorted kata and the same correct direction issue.

Keep exploring... never hurts.

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 11:56 AM

Hello Brian:

Re: too much wasted movement (eg step back THEN forward) could be a guaranteed safety factor there? Some movements I do not want to do even slowly in order to avoid damaging my partner guarantee their safety. Such that I would hold the weight, make SURE I've got it then go forward with that leg... prevent doing the forward shift/drop and smashing someone to the ground too quickly...

Possible?

Jeff
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 12:03 PM

Heck...you step back to off-balance someone or drag them back/down with you...and step in to close distance/knee/strike.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 12:04 PM

Hello:
<< if you work the kata backwards do you hear lyrics about the devil? j/k


<<find discreet sections.

Subtilities, nuances... yup!

<<What comes out of that? Nothing? Move on.

No, no, no... keep exploring, keep working on that, make CERTAIN there is "nothing" there for months. Abandon it prematurely, instantly and I miss valuable pieces, parts. Unpopular but true... that "mold" stuff took a while to grow, the lighbulb more than one attempt to figure out the right way. Maybe the box IS empty, but I'll keep watching/playing with it and who knows what I'll find...

Jeff
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 12:07 PM

I didn't give a time frame.

I know for a fact some Goju teachers will work on something for years, move on, and then go back to it with some added insights.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 02:11 PM

Quote:

Heck...you step back to off-balance someone or drag them back/down with you...and step in to close distance/knee/strike.



Yes. I was commenting specifically on the bunkai shown in the video in relation to sanseru.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 03:29 PM

Well, most of my opinion on this stuff comes from the "rules of kasai" as explained by my teacher and in his book here:

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/the_way_of_kata

One of the rules is "do not be deceived by the embusen rule"...meaning basically in the way I was trained the embusen doesn't neccessarily carry with it a whole lot significance outside of solo peformance.

It can, but the applications i've learned don't rely on or require the embusen to "tell" you anything about the technique other than perhaps showing general angles etc.

As an example a technique performed to one side does not neccessarily mean that you should use that side when drilling it.

As far as stepping back vs. forward again I think the rule here is probably quite malleable, but I will state for the record almost no application i've learned taught us to step back, and in fact stepping back as a principle is something that was always discouraged by both my teachers, that said I suppose it can have it's place.

Also the version of that sanseiryu technique I like the best not only involves moving forward, but is quite aggressive and almost a "crashing" kind of motion to my mind. the only thing I have seen to physically compare it to is some of the Chen Taiji takedowns i've seen. Hopefully you get the general gist.

I am probably not explaining it adequately, but that's the short version.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 03:51 PM

I read that 'do not be fooled by embusan rule' in Toguchi's book...and would be gratefule if some could clarify what that means. I had a problem agreeing with it...but attributed that to my lack of understanding.

thanks in advance
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 03:58 PM

Quote:

I read that 'do not be fooled by embusan rule' in Toguchi's book...and would be gratefule if some could clarify what that means. I had a problem agreeing with it...but attributed that to my lack of understanding.


thanks in advance





It means that the embusen is an artificial construction, and shouldn't be used as any kind of hard and fast rule in analyzing kata applications.

I realize plenty of people witll probably disagree with that concept, it's just the way I was trained, and my own opinion. That is not to say that there aren't places where turns matter etc., they definitely do, just that on the whole embusen is an artificial construction and doesn't need to be rigidly adhered to in drills and application.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 04:17 PM

I read it to mean 'ignore the concept of offline'. Was that incorrect?
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 04:35 PM

Quote:

I read it to mean 'ignore the concept of offline'. Was that incorrect?



No, I don't think that's what it means at all....again in this way of seeing things, embusen isn't what tells you to get offline, the technique itself does,and you don't need a cue from the embusen pattern to know how to use the Jodan uke at the beginning of Gekisai.

If you can use Chudan uke to break an attack you know how to do it, you don't need the Kata to be so detailed as to to tell you "here" because the technique itself does this.

Angles etc. are implicit in the techniques themselves, and don't require an artificial floor pattern to operate.

That is my personal understanding of what the rule means.

Here's an excercise in less=more:

Take your favorite kata, get rid of the repititions, and do it all in a straight line, see what you come up with.
Does it still make sense functionally? I've found in general it does. There are exceptions where a kata shows turns and such for a specific purpose but in my understanding of things not much changes, in fact some of them make more sense to me in this form.

Again it's one way of seeing kata, and it may not be yours, I fully accept some people's interpretation uses the embusen, it's just not the way I see things.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 07:36 PM

Hi Dan,

I think it is safe to say kata's originators were 100% successful in not documenting their kata, leaving a student to fully accept what they are shown by their instructor is the correct answer.

Of ocurse when you can compare different instructors answers the questions begin, which was the first.

Obviously the Okinawan seniors didn't want to give than answer.

All kata seem to undergo continual tidal flow in their development/passge. Thereby learning how to use what you are given to drop someone up to the rules impresed upon you.

All of the versions have application answers, and most obviously they are different.

I've just watched a few different Sanseiryu answers. An'Ichi Miyagi, Hiagonna Morio, a South American old style answer, the Meibukan version and a few others including a Shito-ryu version according to my records. Mario McKenna had posted that portion of the Tou'on Ryu Sanseiryu a few weeks ago (it is now taken down) and yes his scooped very low quite similar to the Meibukan version.

I can understand if you're trying to use that movement to scoop up a kick you might once to step back instead of forward.

What I think keeps things interesting is the question to 1) find out the most natural application based on what is given in the kata and 2) look for variations of the movement, 3) variations of angle of entry, 4) fractals of the movement's potential, etc.

Outside of restrictions you adopt, there are no rules to bind one in application.

Isshinryu basics are techniques moving forwards as well as backwards. Even those motions don't mean the attack is from the front, for you can shift step to change the angle against the attack.

One particularily interesting form of stepping is replacement stepping, begin a crescent step but when the one foot moves in alongside the other, the weight transfers and the initially fixed foot then steps back in a reverse 1/2 crescent step, ending up in the same location, but not moving in space (theoretically making it possible to do the kata in one location and really not sacrifice any movement.

To give you one idea, the forward step might be a palm strike into the chest and the following palm might be a stroke into the throat.

Kata's main purpose, IMVHO, is to learn how to develop some of karate's energy release potential. The applications learn how to tap that potential into the attacker.

But nothing says kata limits movement potential.

Just a few quick thoughts.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/28/08 10:09 PM

Wow - some great responses. Thanks for the input. It will take me some time to digest and I hope to address some of the comments more specifically. In the meantime, here are some general thoughts for your further comment:

Quote:

Using link #2 any chance that "catch" is on the wrong side (ie should be done to the outside rather than the inside)??? That would make the forward movement very beneficial...



Ta Jeff - I actually do the application on the other side as you suggest. However I don't know if I agree that the forward movement is beneficial. Here is my reasoning:

I've found over the years that in free-sparring it is very common to catch your opponent's leg - particularly if your opponent is inexperienced (some would say this matches the theory that karate wasn't designed solely for use against trained opponents).

Importantly, when I do catch the leg I've always done so after the full extension of the kick, when the outward speed has been exhausted. Beginners in particular don't snap back hard (or at all), and as a result the leg is moving slower and can be caught more easily.

By way of contrast, catching a leg in the outward phase is problematic because you are trying to catch it when it is accelerating. In my experience you are more likely to jam your fingers and break or dislocate them if you try - God knows I've seen enough of those over the years.

Now Brian and others might be right that the technique isn't a leg catch but is some other "jamming" move/takedown. I don't agree, but I certainly respect this view and I am open to persuasion. If there is an application other than a leg catch, I think it is secondary. In my experience the leg catch is a useful and frequently applied technique - but usually with a step back on the side opposite to that shown in the video.

Now Brian raised the problem of having to move forward again. With a leg catch on the other side from the video I've found your opponent starts to panic and pulls back. In so doing you get pulled forward. The kata then makes you kick as you are stepping forward - my favourite kick being a big toe directly upward into the groin/perineum (note your other hand has by this stage grabbed his knee and pushed his leg slightly sideways to allow you room to move and counter with the forward step/kick, or alternatively you can take your opponent down by twisting it sideways or (as in tou'on ryu) you can use your knee with a suri ashi.

Nonetheless I am open to further argument on this issue. I find both of Jeff's and Brian's responses very thought-provoking.

Thanks Victor, Zach, Neko and others for your considered comments. They will take me a while to digest, but they are also very thought-provoking.

In relation to the observation that embusen should not be adhered to strictly, I agree absolutely. On the other hand, I don't think it should, for example, permit kata analysis to completely disregard the embusen.

In my experience embusen is a compromise to move the solo performer around and have him/her end up in more or less the starting spot, facing the same direction.

But having said that, the embusen also trains tenshin/taisabaki IMHO (otherwise it would be superfluous or irrelevant movement). Embusen should not be applied too literally, however I think this is because:

(a) some moves are either capable of being done forward or back, the principal or more advanced move being in accordance with the kata embusen (but not necessarily, if you adhere to a hidden technique philosophy); or

(b) in other cases the move is "larger" than that needed for the application (eg. a 90 degree turn where a 15 degree turn would have sufficed to "slip" an attack), permitting training a move by enlarging it (much like basic blocks are larger movements than the abbreviated applications).

The reason I raised the sanseru technique is because it seems to me that the step forward as you catch the leg is not realistic or practicable (this is assuming the technique is a leg catch, which is what I think - I might be wrong).

It might be realistic as an ankle and knee grab off the floor if you adopt the tou'on/meibukan approach of scooping it at ground level with a diving takedown - but I don't see this as a primary application simply based on my own experience. I've rarely been game to try this kind of thing in sparring, yet the leg catch is, I have found, common.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/29/08 11:04 AM

That replacing step (a kind of "tsugi ashi") is a very good point Victor.

It allows for either a forward or backward movement to be applied in a "neutral" way. I've adopted this in some bunkai.

I also liked your reference to directions of attack relative to your kata movement. I think this is very relevant.

Thanks for your input and I also want to say that I enjoyed your "chambering" article enormously. I have some ancillary ideas that I would like to put together into an article sometime about chambering (based partly on my observations of people actually using chambering in survelliance footage I used to see as evidence in assault cases as a prosecutor), but I doubt I'll get around to it any time soon:

I'm too busy posting things to you fellows on this site (my wife is starting to think I'm having an online affair and my kids have forgotten who I am).
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 09:21 AM

bump...sorry to go back to an older part of the thread...but could someone please explicitly state what 'the embusan rule' IS?

thank you
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 10:22 AM

In broad terms the embusen rule in this case would state:

Because the kata moves forward with the leg catch, the technique must be effected by moving forward when you catch the leg.

This is followed by Zach's quoted injunction: "Don't be fooled by the embusen rule".

I believe what was meant by this injunction is as follows:

If the kata steps directly forwards it doesn't mean it has to be directly forwards. It could be at an angle forwards.

I also think that it means that if the kata steps forwards, a forwards move of some kind must, at the very least, be an option, even if a step back is possible as well. I am at odds here with some of the others who believe that although a forward move might well be impossible in practice, it was deliberately put in to disguise a hidden technique (eg. a backward step).

In my view this is an odd proposition: what if the designer of the kata dies and this "code" is not passed on? Couldn't it lead to misinterpretation and, ultimately, unnecessary (or even inappropriate change)? Doesn't it necessarily lead to some level of knowledge attrition?

I suppose my view draws on CMA, where "hidden techniques" don't appear to feature (at least strongly). In my experience the CMA (especially the internal arts) are very straightforward - the applications are usually in synch with the embusen. It's hard enough to learn the applications, never mind if they are "hidden". On the other hand, I accept that in the Chinese internal arts the manner of stepping and moving is quite different from karate, so a direct comparison is hard to make.

In my experience the rule in karate and generally in Okinawan/Japanese arts is that the embusen is either -

(a) an exaggeration (ie. a larger version) of the actual taisabaki employed in the technique; or
(b) an approximation of the actual taisabaki employed in the technique.

For example, in shisochin the final move is to step forward and pivot 180 degrees to fact the front in a neko ashi dachi (cat stance). In fact the application is, in my view, a step at an angle towards your opponent, with a pivot to face your opponent - an angle that is necessarily less than 180 degrees (the embusen). I've illustrated this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae4Jk321LH4.

This appeals to me because the above application is totally consistent with the most likely origins of shisochin, namely a crane/southern mantis hybrid (according to researchers like Kinjo Akio). Accordingly the resemblance of the above application to something like Wing Chun shouldn't come as a surprise, given the common roots of that art and Yong Chun white crane or, for that matter, the Hakka systems in general, including southern mantis and bak mei (white eyebrow).

In the sanseru case I'm left in a quandry: the move as I have been shown it only really corresponds with a leg catch. If another application is appropriate, the IOGKF/Jundokan approach (which is essentially mine) must be wrong!

On the other hand if the technique is an IOGKF/Jundokan leg catch, then the step forward must be wrong, because it is, in my view, fundamentally impractical to step forward during the leg catch. Why? You don't want to try to catch a kick when it is accelerating - as a big limb a leg carries a lot of momentum. If you try to catch a leg at the start of a kick you're very likely to jam and break/dislocate your fingers.

However if you step back and let the kick reach its full extension, the outward speed will be exhausted. Since snap-backs are often neglected (especially by beginners), the kick's backward velocity is often slow enough to permit a catch. The logical point of a leg catch therefore seems to me to be at or near the conclusion of the outward part of the kick. To do this you need to evade the kick, meaning a backwards step of some kind - not a forwards interception.

Hence my quandry and my invitation for all of your input...
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 11:01 AM

Thank you. So, the 'embusan rule' is 'kata movement in a particular direction means attack from that direction.'

Got it. I take it that the same warning, to not be fooled by that, also applies to the stricture of eyes ('look first').
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 11:10 AM

Quote:

Thank you. So, the 'embusan rule' is 'kata movement in a particular direction means attack from that direction.'

Got it. I take it that the same warning, to not be fooled by that, also applies to the stricture of eyes ('look first').



I know you are adressing Dan but....

Well you should probably always look where you are moving...again it's implied by what you are doing, you don't need an embusen to tell you that, that's something that should be covered in anyone's fundamentals don't you think?

This isn't a controversial idea by the way, certainly not everyone will agree with it, but it's not new by any stretch. Much like repetitions in Kata, I personally don't see alot of meaning in the embusen, if you do that's great.

If you take the embusen totally literally it ends up in all kinds of silly scenarios that don't match reality, thus I personally don't believe it is intended as anything but a device to formalize the kata and hold it together.

Dan, having multiple interpretations for a technique in the way I was taught isn't wrong, in fact it's expected. I think the leg catch version is pretty standard, I was taught it by my first teacher.

I think it's a pretty good application, i've learned that as well as the alternative I vaguely mentioned. However because we don't really seem to use the embusen as a marker for anything we never discussed whether it should be back or forward etc.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 01:15 PM

I didn't say I disagreed with multiple applications Zach - in fact, I wholeheartedly support multiple application theory. It is central to my philosophy of kata deconstruction/analysis.

It's just that I disagree with some applications that are essentially "impossible" if done with the kata footwork.

Now I must make it clear that "embusen" is used by many to refer just to the "ground pattern" made by the kata - eg. Heian/Pinan shodan is an "I" shape. Some kata follow an "X" shape - etc. This is not what I mean. For want of a better word (and because "embusen" is used by many for this purpose) I'm talking about specific techniques - eg. performing a kick while stepping backward. Now sometimes these sorts of moves are understandable in terms of body conditioning if nothing else. Shaolin gong-fu does this a lot, and this is okay. But I disagree that it is appropriate to pay scant attention to the footwork of individual kata techniques because they aren't "a marker for anything". Having tried my hand at kata design I have found they are central. I can illustrate this with a few simple techniques, however it would require video to explain. Essentially the footwork of a technique such as kote gaeshi is fundamentally tied to the hand movement. Without the hands and feet moving in a specific order and (general) direction, the technique simply won't work.

Accordingly my view is that footwork in kata techniques is central. I think the fact that most/many karateka don't consider embusen (within the meaning of my narrow use) closely or at all results in some level of knowledge attrition. In summary, experience has taught me that the "it isn't really important" approach means you're missing out on something very important...
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 03:54 PM

Well, by embusen i'm meaning the overall floor pattern, and honestly no offense but my training is fine, i'm not missing out on anything, we just don't view things the same. I appreciate the alternate view, but i've had enough exposure to a variety of methods in Karate to say I am very comfortable with the way I do things now.

To me embusen does not = footwork, this is part of the technique(s) even when taken in isolation. There are places where it is artificial and places where it has meaning IMO, such as the very last technique in Sanseiryu.

I also don't think it's accurate to say most Karateka don't consider it important...during the 80's I remember a ton of ridiculous multiple attacker self defense scenarios derived from kata attributed to the directions used in the form

I think we agree more than we think, the alternate application i've mentioned for that technique works going forward.

As i've never seen it commonly in Goju i'll poke around and see if I can find someone doing it in Taiji and post the video, it's a crashing motion where you toss them over you leg, in this case augmented by a punch, as in the next technique of the kata, not the most common interpretation but it's effective and works quite well going forward, in fact only really works going forward. You could say it's similar to ura-nage (think that's right) without any grabbing, just body motion. Do you know what i'm talking about?

Hint: If your butt sticks out in when you're shiko dachi it won't work at all!

Here: I found these clips, nothing identical that I saw to what I was talking about, but a few similar things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwxgvhbSVM

There are applications in both of these similar (though different in some ways) to what I have seen, and they move forward. The applications are at the end in the second video.
Posted by: MikoReklaw

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 05:41 PM

Quote:

In broad terms the embusen rule in this case would state:

Because the kata moves forward with the leg catch, the technique must be effected by moving forward when you catch the leg.

This is followed by Zach's quoted injunction: "Don't be fooled by the embusen rule".



I agree with Zach. The movement is there to show a movement... not nessecarily the correct angle or direction.

Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 08:38 PM

I think we were talking at cross purposes in our use of the term "embusen". I agree absolutely that floor pattern is irrelevant other than for moving the solo performer around. I've never sought to derive meaning from floor patterns! However I am firm in my view that understanding footwork in kata is essential - but it seems you agree with this. (I surmised this in my last post - so I wasn't implying that you specifically were missing out on something. As a rule I avoid attacking people on forums - directly or impliedly )

I also agree that the kata never give you exact angles - as I've said they are usually larger for training purposes or some other approximation.

But direction in a technique - especially general direction (advancing or retreating) is in my opinion a deliberate and highly thought through part of kata design.

I'm still not clear on your application Zach (what is the scooping hand's function in this application?) - I'd love to see it. It might make sense of the footwork. That is why I started this thread - to get ideas. Some kata footwork is a compromise to allow multiple applications.

But if the scoop is the primary one, I still wonder how it can be reconciled with a forward step...
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 08:52 PM

Quote:


I'm still not clear on your application Zach - I'd love to see it. It might makw sense of the footwork. That is what I started this thread for. Some kata footwork is a compromise to allow multiple applications. But if the scoop is the primary one, I still wonder how it can be reconciled...



I don't consider it the primary one, but I know for some it may be. I don't know how to describe the application other than that unfortunately, you just toss the guy over your leg using your structure and punch him, i've also seen some Koryu jujutsu techniques that amount to essentially the same thing.

To my mind there is nothing to be reconciled here, both applications (i'm sure there's others too) work just fine.

I wish I had a visual but I don't. If you watch the Taiji videos and look for things that look like that sanseiryu technique you will get the general idea, there are many similar techniques there that all move forward and have no leg catch. One is near the very beginning of the first video.

I'll keep looking for a better video. Obviously the application was taught to me by someone who gets it alot better than I do, so i'm at fault for the poor explanation.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 09:09 PM

Gosh, you're too quick Zach. Please note the subtle but important edits to my previous post!
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 09:14 PM

Hi Dan, sorry it's taken so long to get a response out on this thread.

Quote:

In my view this is an odd proposition: what if the designer of the kata dies and this "code" is not passed on? Couldn't it lead to misinterpretation and, ultimately, unnecessary (or even inappropriate change)?



Is this not precisely what has happened? Perhaps not in Goju but certainly in the Shorin derived arts where every kata has at least 3 or 4 official major variations (and thats being conservative).

I actually think that adherence to the embussen (floor pattern/direction) in kata interpretation is one of the big dividing factors between naha-te and shuri-te. When I look at Goju I see little or no adjustment needed to the footwork, however the Shorin sub-styles (kata systems) are often completely different.

The crane kung fu I've studied kept the foot work literal. Hidden movements were things implied by the internal mechanics of a movement which sometimes was only evident when applying the movement on a partner. Never the less, they still had secrets to unlock which outsiders were not privy to. As I understood it the higher one progressed the more there was hidden. To join my school I actually had to sign a contract stating that I would not teach any of the kung fu I was taught to anyone else, nor could I change any of it, and this was in 21st century Britain, not 19th century China.
Teaching outsiders was never something that came easily, although I think the okinawans were much more easy going in this regard than say the chinese. I have a theory though that Matsumura was the source of much of the secrecy that surounded Shuri-te practice in the early days which might be why there is more obscuring of techniques in Shorin styles.

Harlan made an interesting point about the eyes. The direction one looks in during each kata movement is a big deal in Shotokan and as I understand it in many other styles. However I seem to remember Kenwa Mabuni being quoted as saying that the first movements in the Pinan Kata are against opponents in front of you, despite the kata movements being taught as facing (looking) to the side.

Movements like the 4-directional shuto uke's in Heian sho + ni are almost exclusively expressed as evasive movements where the pivoting foot is different in application to performance.

However I am not one who discounts the embussen when discussing application, quite the contrary. I believe that if a kata movement is performed at an angle (relative to the line one faces when at attention) then the technique is meant to be performed at an angle against an opponent.

Unlike Dan I'm happy to subscribe to the major angles of 45 and 90 degrees in application because I think that signals such as these (though not limited to these) tell us the kind of attack the technique is intended for application against: after all there is a big difference between a boxers hook and a wild drunken haymaker. I think some of the difficulties karateka have had over the years in applying the art to things like cage fighting or even self defense situations is due to a lack of understanding in matching technique (or part of technique) to attack.
More in between angles such as 15 or 30 degrees I see as subtleties of combat as opposed to distinct applications layered into the form.
Long 180 and 270 turns sometimes have throw applications, but usually work fine as a simple direction change.

The key is in feeling the internal flow of the techniques as they fall one into the next. Some will break off and some will continue. If it continues then follow the embusen to the letter, if it breaks you may have to alter it.
Most important with finding the application is does it play a part of this kata's overall lesson. If it doesn't that's cool, it is another layer to the technique, but if it does then you have found something that needs to be remembered IMO.

Interestingly stepping back is rarely found in Shotokan Kata but it's always been a major part in how techniques have been explained. I actually find very little need for it in terms of application, but it is a natural permutation of the kata, just an over emphasised one.

As I've said I beleive in kata as systems. I see learning and understanding that system in terms of a complete knowledge of the systematic applications is only the first step of the kata's potential. Next is broadening that knowledge by expanding on the traditional angles and directions, and lastly understanding the wider expression of energy as Victor mentioned, i.e. making each movement do whatever you need it to do when you need it regardless of perceived application.

Dan, an off the cuff idea I've not tested: might that kick scoop you showed not work by slipping under/past a lead punch, scooping up the lead leg under the knee to upset his blanace and pressing into his leading hip joint to destroy his structure and further upset his balance. I often make use of the width of the feet when applying the zenkutsudachi. Stepping out into the stance, particularly if you step into it shomen, (square forward facing) takes you slightly offline, leaning forward to get the knee should also drive the shoulder into the opponent and the fact that you step past the opponents lead leg with your own gives position for your reverse hand to press his hip not only back but to the side (towards your lead knee).

Just a thought...

What other movements do you reverse?
Posted by: brocksampson

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 09:20 PM

Interesting thread so far! I just wanted to share a few ideas. I'm not entirely familiar with this form but I can see some principals at work.

#1 The catching a kick application may not be the one originally intended for this movement. If this is the case, the footwork might not immediately support the rest of the movement. Not to say it is an invalid application at all.

#2 It is possible that this movement is performed at a 45 or even 90 degree angle from the attacker. We often assume that they are lined up square with us. You're allowed to move around in a fight (see enbusen rule?). I find many leg applications much more workable from slightly off-line of a kick.

#3 Sometimes to catch a kick, you have to eat some of it. Moving in to jam a kick is a useful way to decrease it's impact. Interestingly, it's also a good time to latch on. Maybe the backwards movement is where you go immediately after jamming into a kick. It gets you out of range for other attacks and it's the last place an attacker wants you to go with their foot/leg usually.

My personal opinion is that I would not rely on this as a defense against a kick. But, that's the cool thing about kata application. What works great for one person may not be so useful for someone else. The techniques recorded are principals that can usually be applied in many ways, against a variety of situations as long as they are applied correctly. My suggestion is to work it until you can do it with some competency and then work it to see if your ideas hold up under pressure (an aggressive, resisting attacker). Just be careful with your partner.
I apologize if what I'm saying is off base. I just don't really see the same application at all so it's difficult to point out any specifics from my POV.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/30/08 09:35 PM

Quote:


I'm still not clear on your application Zach (what is the scooping hand's function in this application?) - I'd love to see it. It might make sense of the footwork. That is why I started this thread - to get ideas. Some kata footwork is a compromise to allow multiple applications.




There is no scooping hand in the way I learned it, in fact even in the solo Kata as I learned it there is no emphasized scooping. Crazy I know but i'm not the only one around who does it that way, you don't scoop leg in the application i'm talking about, but you could. If you did it would look similar to the leg scoop/elbow thing in sepai...does it make any more sense?

God this is frustrating lol! I'm off to scour youtube until I find something suitable.

Ok here....this is not the same technique, but the escape he does at 13 seconds here is about what your body does in the application. In fact if you have ever learned the standard japanese ju jutsu type escape for full-nelson, bear hug, what have you, the body motion is similar, there is simply no leg grabbing like in ura nage or some such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9pu5uv1Z6o
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/31/08 05:29 AM

Zach, can you send me a video link to a version of sanseiryu that corresponds to yours?

As I said to harlan, sanseru/sanseiru/sanseiryu is the goju kata that has the greatest variation. I chose the scoop move because it is common to IOGKF, Jundokan, JKF, Meibukan and goju's sister art of tou'on ryu. As far as I can recall, I think it also occurs in ryuei ryu. So the scoop is common, but does not occur in many other schools - eg. I don't think shito ryu has it.

As to the final move in sanseiru, my view is that you're turning to face your attacker. As you turn you must also move away - not into a "king hit". Once you've turned or as you're turning you apply a deflection with the hands. So I don't find the "embusen" of this particular move at odds with the application at all.

The turn is also a 270 degree turn, which is a common conditioning tool for Chinese arts (ie. if nothing else it serves to condition you to spin around).
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/31/08 06:55 AM

Quote:

Is this [loss of knowledge through passage of masters] not precisely what has happened? Perhaps not in Goju but certainly in the Shorin derived arts where every kata has at least 3 or 4 official major variations (and thats being conservative).



An astute observation Shonuff. I think you might be right. But might it be that Shorin forms have been in Okinawa longer and suffer more from the "Chinese whisper" effect, rather than "hidden technique" syndrome?

Quote:

I actually think that adherence to the embussen (floor pattern/direction) in kata interpretation is one of the big dividing factors between naha-te and shuri-te. When I look at Goju I see little or no adjustment needed to the footwork, however the Shorin sub-styles (kata systems) are often completely different.

The crane kung fu I've studied kept the foot work literal. Hidden movements were things implied by the internal mechanics of a movement which sometimes was only evident when applying the movement on a partner. Never the less, they still had secrets to unlock which outsiders were not privy to. As I understood it the higher one progressed the more there was hidden. To join my school I actually had to sign a contract stating that I would not teach any of the kung fu I was taught to anyone else, nor could I change any of it, and this was in 21st century Britain, not 19th century China.



I agree.

Quote:

Teaching outsiders was never something that came easily, although I think the okinawans were much more easy going in this regard than say the chinese. I have a theory though that Matsumura was the source of much of the secrecy that surounded Shuri-te practice in the early days which might be why there is more obscuring of techniques in Shorin styles.



Yet we know that Azato, Itosu, Chibana, Chokki Motobu etc. all made changes, some of them radical. Could the obscurity have been caused here in these later "innovations"?

Quote:

Unlike Dan I'm happy to subscribe to the major angles of 45 and 90 degrees in application because I think that signals such as these (though not limited to these) tell us the kind of attack the technique is intended for application against: after all there is a big difference between a boxers hook and a wild drunken haymaker. I think some of the difficulties karateka have had over the years in applying the art to things like cage fighting or even self defense situations is due to a lack of understanding in matching technique (or part of technique) to attack.
More in between angles such as 15 or 30 degrees I see as subtleties of combat as opposed to distinct applications layered into the form.



I actually agree with this Shonuff. My point is just that "exact" degrees are always variable. Naha te has some larger movements (eg. 180 degree turns) that can be anything from 10 to 180 degrees in application.

Quote:

Long 180 and 270 turns sometimes have throw applications, but usually work fine as a simple direction change.



Sometimes, but sometimes they are larger as a direction change in the full knowledge that the application is a smaller angle.

Quote:

Interestingly stepping back is rarely found in Shotokan Kata but it's always been a major part in how techniques have been explained. I actually find very little need for it in terms of application, but it is a natural permutation of the kata, just an over emphasised one.



You might be right that in Shorin forms "forward" could generally translate to "back". But I note the same tendency in many arts. Ultimately I believe it is more "advanced" to move into your opponent because it requires more subtle deflection and greater precision.

Quote:

Dan, an off the cuff idea I've not tested: might that kick scoop you showed not work by slipping under/past a lead punch, scooping up the lead leg under the knee to upset his blanace and pressing into his leading hip joint to destroy his structure and further upset his balance. I often make use of the width of the feet when applying the zenkutsudachi. Stepping out into the stance, particularly if you step into it shomen, (square forward facing) takes you slightly offline, leaning forward to get the knee should also drive the shoulder into the opponent and the fact that you step past the opponents lead leg with your own gives position for your reverse hand to press his hip not only back but to the side (towards your lead knee).

Just a thought...



And an interesting one, but it is at odds with the kata movement too much (at least as I've been taught it).

Certainly your suggestion has been adopted by some kaiha with minor variations.

Quote:

What other movements do you reverse?



Heian shodan (our version with some sanchins and cat stances added)! Lol! We've even created a reverse version for practice which we do after the "forward one"! Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOksN57DkLY. The reverse moves then pave the way for our first embu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1GZ5hE64Is Note that our embu can easily be adapted to the shotokan/shorin version by omitting the sanchins and putting in kokutsu dachi rather than neko ashi dachi etc.

Also in kata like seiyunchin I usually perform the opening move back rather than forward, but I do apply it forward as well (it requires more daring and precision, but works better)!
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 05/31/08 04:01 PM

Quote:

Yet we know that Azato, Itosu, Chibana, Chokki Motobu etc. all made changes, some of them radical. Could the obscurity have been caused here in these later "innovations"?



So the Matsumura Seito Karateka would have us believe.

I have come to the conclusion that the application knowledge gap is down to a culture of "work it out yourself".

Funakoshi talks in the Kyohan about intellectual study of karate, and though he warns against studying more than you train, the point is well made that one must study the kata to discover the true meaning of karate, not wait for Sensei to tell you. I think that idea came from the Japanese.

I don't think any of the old Okinawan Shorin teachers ever passed on complete application knowledge to any of their students.
This allowed the art to grow with the imagination of individual masters, but when performance of kata took emphasis over deep study and application, suddenly knowledge was being lost by each successive generation of teachers.

In Itosu and Azato's generation I imagine that there was still a strong base of technical knowledge, so to with Funakoshi's generation and one or two after. However I think those who learned during/after after Karate's expansion had to contend with the cultural changes that came about after the removal of the samurai class and then again with the end of WW2. At both times there was a drive towards more peaceful ways of interpreting martial arts. Great for the social development of a nation, not so wonderful for us descendants-in-budo who want deeper understanding of the arts we love.


Quote:


I actually agree with this Shonuff. My point is just that "exact" degrees are always variable. Naha te has some larger movements (eg. 180 degree turns) that can be anything from 10 to 180 degrees in application.



I see your point. I simply don't interpret every turn as an aspect of the application of the turning technique. I see the turns as the vehicle by which a techniques angle of application is revealed, also as a break between sequences.

Quote:


You might be right that in Shorin forms "forward" could generally translate to "back".



Though I feel a technique may have a particular application which utilizes a certain direction, one can't be limited to that direction, making all other directions acceptable permutations. I think this is true of every technique in every form from every style.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/17/08 01:45 AM

For those who are interested, I have written an article detailing my (tentative) conclusions on the particular sanseru application I put in issue at the start of this thread. You can read the article here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/reversing-kata-movements-in-application.html.

If you want to skip the article and just see the video embedded in it, go to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvi98iClCNA.
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/17/08 06:39 AM

It makes sense, I also use layered application in my interpretation of kata.

The only point you and I slightly disagree on is that I feel part of the reason for this kind of layering was for the sake of hiding application. After all there was nothing to stop the kata designer from seperating the applications and putting in directly related movements for both, once stepping back with a mid level cross motion for the leg catch and at another point stepping forward with a low ankle scoop.

On a slightly different matter, when you perform the scoop in your video what is your other hand doing? It looks like you just grab his calf?
As I know that application the crossing hand grabs and twists the foot to unbalance the opponent and stop him trying to close or strike. This means he's pretty much floored and vulnerable to the following kicks.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/17/08 07:50 AM

The other hand attacks/controls the knee - it moves into place as you step up.

I have found that your opponent pulls back - and pulls you forward. By the time your other hand comes into play in a dynamic, rather than static context you're able to get to the knee better than the ankle. The panic makes him pull back so his ankle sometimes under his knee. His knee is also moving slower than the ankle and is easier to control. Lastly, you want to be as close to him as possible - not at his fast and powerful periphery. That's my experience in sparring - and it coincides with what I was first taught.

The ankle is still a (lesser) option (if he happens to leave his leg extended or you can't get to his knee!). You can also do a mid shin strike with the heel of your palm.

Bear in mind, I slowed this right down and dissected it into parts just for video analysis...
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/17/08 09:41 AM

Dan,

I see what you mean, the knee makes sense if they are pulling (or closing), but do you not find the leg pull is accompanied by high striking while both your hands are down, or by controlling the knee are you affecting the same kind of twist in the leg that I was describing with the ankle twist?

Do you have any thoughts on why kata application may have been layered in kata movements instead of simply adding more sequences to the form?
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/17/08 11:37 AM

Quote:

but do you not find the leg pull is accompanied by high striking while both your hands are down



If my leg is grabbed I push into the opponent and do a double palm strike to the ears. It is instinctive and seems to work. But if you pull away you're starting to fall off balance, so no - I've not found the high strikes a problem. If he does push forward, you let go and abandon that attack.

If you're fast enough, you're kicking him before he can hit anyway - takes the wind out of any hit he might be going to deliver...

Quote:

or by controlling the knee are you affecting the same kind of twist in the leg that I was describing with the ankle twist?



Yes, a similar twist - same direction (to the outside). Just a bit easier to control at the knee.

Quote:

Do you have any thoughts on why kata application may have been layered in kata movements instead of simply adding more sequences to the form?



I respect your view and think there is possibly some truth to it - but I guess I've found the "secret technique" thing a little overstated at times, so I have found myself becoming averse to it. It's just a personal thing. We'll never know the extent, but I'm sure some techniques were "secret" - the Okinawans were a bit like that, it seems (even though there doesn't seem to have been any real reason for it, given their largely peaceful society, according to real historical accounts).

As a matter of interest, I heard from my London instructor recently - he's let the website lapse because he's too busy at work and his wife is going to have a baby, but he's still teaching. His email changed so I had to wait until he contacted me! Give me a PM if you still want to get in touch with him.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/17/08 11:44 PM

Interesting ideas Dan. However, the way I see it is if someone attacks it is important to close distance rather than back up. Especially when catching kicks. However, for me that is why each bunkai has multiple options during their use which all stems from an initial attempt to close distance and attack. The goal being deflection and attack so if I don't catch the kick its of no consequence because that wasn't my primary goal but rather icing on the cake. In fact, the technique you use for kick catching is perfect for attacking and deflection of low attacks from kicks to takedown attempts. However, I personally prefer to "stuff" low attacks rather than give them time to gain speed and power by giving them length. The reason for this is if I guess right I can make it work, but if I guess wrong I may get punished for it. Just a thought.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 12:51 AM

why does it have to be scooping a kick? because of the hand-form and motion that is generally taught?

one thing you could do is forget about the astetics and look at the gross motion - you step back a bit followed by a rush and finish. kicks don't have to be kicks, they can be knees. 'scoops' don't have to scoop, they can parry and/or grab. stepping back doesn't have to be straight back...etc.

You may be trying to be too literal in interpretation...and thats what is holding your application analysis back. you are first assuming above all else that the exact movement you were taught is infalible. I think you have to be willing to loosen that up.

just one more opinion from the peanut gallery.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 02:08 AM

You're correct, of course.

This was a specific analysis of an application that I regard as the primary application. I might be wrong, but we all get a feeling based on our experience.

I was more interested in the whole concept of "reversing" kata moves and whether this was an acceptable methodology, rather than finding the "definitive" application for this particular move.

I have my own views as to whether the step can be angled backwards and whether the hand formation in the sukui uke is suitable for a parry etc. - but this is influenced by how I do the kata. Others apply quite different kata moves, so my analysis might seem just that - a bit to "anal".
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 07:29 AM

Hello Ed:

Wish I had said it first... well said!

Jeff
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 07:32 AM

Ed, do you have a specific non-scoop application in mind?
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 10:50 AM

Quote:

Hello Ed:

Wish I had said it first... well said!

Jeff



My response stands. I told Ed he was right - one should not assume that there is just one application, nor should one limit one's thinking about bunkai to one perspective.

But to assume that I have approached my own analysis this way is incorrect, nor do I believe it is borne out in anything I've posted - here or elsewhere on the net.

On the contrary, I have been studying sanseiru since 1984 and considered all manner of explanations and bunkai. The fact that I have skipped discussion of other applications for the sukui is indicative of the fact that, having considered the options, I am satisfied on balance (rightly or wrongly) that the primary application is a leg catch - not that I have failed to consider other applications. Were I to detail all my thinking leading to this point, I would have to write a book. (In any event, this is pretty much what my blog is starting to resemble - consider my latest sanseiru article at http://www.dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com which should offer some evidence of my propensity for thoroughness.)

You are free to disagree with my conclusions and if you have a specific application you feel derails my analysis, I'd be happy to hear it.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 02:35 PM

Dan, I think the problem comes when you say it is ineffective to scoop a kick by stepping into the attack. Let me know if I am off base, but this was what I got from your post.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 07:53 PM

You're not off base Marcel - this is my experience. I like stifling kicks, but not with that hand technique. Of course, if you view just the gross movements as Ed suggests, the step forward can be utilised with similar parrys, etc. (or other attacks, eg. diving) - just not a leg catch, imho.

Having said that, you might step forward to grab as your opponent starts to snap back, but you have to be very quick.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 08:52 PM

Dan, I just checked the video on your blog about the technique. It seems you are saying there is a low block stepping back before the "scoop" stepping forward in the kata. And you believe it is better to step back on the scoop. However, wouldn't it be better to use the low block to deflect/parry the kick and step forward on the leg catch/scoop just like it is depicted in the kata? Why omit the low block in your application. This seems key to effective application of these techniques.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 09:48 PM

The low block occurs before the scoop. In the kata the low block functions as both a release from a grab and a block/deflection. In the kata this occurs as you step back. By the time you've block the kick, it's too late to catch it in my experience (I have yet to effect a block, then a scoop). I suppose it is possible, but I think it very unlikely. Moreover the block is preferable in this case on the inside (in my experience), meaning the scoop would have to be done on the "less preferable leg" as you step forward. So I have considered this as an option (in some detail over the years). I keep coming back to the same problem.

There would be nothing to stop you from mixing the moves up - using the block as you step forward etc.

But for the purposes of this thread I have been a bit more literal. Why? I am personally a little weary of obtuse applications. In the internal arts I realised that the applications, once pointed out, are very obvious and, indeed, "literal". It is a refreshing change from "this kick could be a wristlock" type analysis which is often the reductio ad absurdum of a lot of karate bunkai analysis nowadays (not that I'm suggesting that you, Ed or Jeff engage in such analysis).

Karate kata moves tend to be a bit more intractable and mysterious (I have to say, a little more so in the case of shorin-type kata as opposed to, say, goju-ryu), so I do understand why karate bunkai and oyo analysis is more 'flexible' to some extent.

But I am not a great fan of this methodology, even though I agree with Ed that the gross or macro movement is often useful in itself in teaching fundamental concepts of movement. This is different to "seeing" bunkai that are at odds with fundamental concepts being taught...

To my mind the footwork in relation to the sukui uke seemed at odds with the fundamental concept of a scooping leg catch - a move I see as a principal application. I start with the principal application, and then look at others. But when the principal application doesn't marry with the literal elements in the kata (and in goju there aren't many, IMHO) then I start to analyse the issue in my own inimitable way (which, as I said to Ed, might seem a bit "anal", but there you have it...)!

Posted by: medulanet

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/18/08 10:40 PM

Interesting Dan, as I have only had real success catching kicks after first deflecting them. Any kick I have caught without some sort of deflection/block I was also struck with the kick. As for the block being too slow I disagree. However, this is because it is not the second hand which acutally catches the kick, but the blocking hand. That is what the chamber is for be it to the rib or back in a fighting hands up kamae. It hooks the leg. The blocking arm never looses contact with the leg. Then, the "scoop" you illustrate can either be used to reinforce the grip on the leg, grab testicles, or grab the other leg to finish the takedown. I don't think one way is right over the other. But I just don't think that always stepping back away from kicks is always a good strategy.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 01:06 AM

Hi Marcel

Quote:

I have only had real success catching kicks after first deflecting them.



The "sukui uke" is a block - (hence "uke") - it is a simultaneous deflection and catch, not just a catch.

I would find it surprising if you have deflected with one hand and caught with the other... That doesn't seem to be what you're suggesting. You're suggesting, it seems, what the kata already does.

In terms of the blocking arm never losing contact with the leg, this is already true of the sukui uke. Then the other hand (which in the kata moves over the top almost immediately after the sukui uke) does what you suggest - it reinforces the grip. As I said, this is a quick 1-2 movement with the hands in the kata. By contrast, the preceding downward block is clearly unrelated (or related to the same application only in a very loose sense).

That "block" preceding the sukui uke (which many would argue is just a release from a catch - we do it as a block as well) isn't slow - I was saying that it would be slow to block with that hand, yet catch with the other (ie. the sukui uke): but again, this doesn't appear to be what you meant.

I personally don't believe the "j-curve" scoop was ever intended as a grab to the testicles etc. That would be, to me, an "obtuse" application of the kind I referred to above - but that's my opinion only.

Quote:

I just don't think that always stepping back away from kicks is always a good strategy.



I agree. But in this instance as step back seems necessary (and it is how I've managed to apply it in free sparring).

Sometimes, when I've already stifled a kick, I have grabbed the leg, but this is because of a fundamental error on the part of my opponent, not because of an effective technique applied by me.

If you can effect the sukui uke moving into an accelerating kick, I salute you. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 01:40 AM

your 'reductio ad absurdum' point is well-taken, I wasn't suggesting such.

I think more absurd is believing you can catch a mid/low non-prearrainged, full-speed, close-enough-to-hit-you kick with a scoop-formed hand. If you've done full-contact sparring, you'll know that kick-grabs can be pulled off when the kick is fairly high, and the kick is actually hooked within the 'V' of the forearm and bicep while stepping in to offbalance as med pointed out. almost never would you rely on scooping with a hand....muchless moving back first.

so if the technique isn't sound, why keep doing it just because the kata looks like thats whats going on? If application is more important than astetics, then wouldn't that mean your kata should be the one conforming to your application and not the other way around?


btw, I was/am referring to your video as well.


not trying to tell anyone what to do of course, just thoughts for discussion.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 02:14 AM

The scooping hand can be used to transfer the technique to the bicep if you need to - but I haven't found that this is a necessity as you suggest.

The deflection part of the sukui uke occurs with the backwards evasion while the actual grab part occurs as your momentum shifts forward. Your supporting hand follows almost immediately, giving you a stronger grip - I agree that the "J" curve wouldn't be enough on its own to hold a leg - I've had my fair share of legs being "pulled away" to know this..

I demonstrated the move statically/formally in the video (I wasn't going for realism).

I've applied the kata move in fairly heavy sparring - not consciously, but when I've deflected, yet found he/she isn't snapping back and I can latch on. The J curve is just the start of a sequence.

So I don't agree that the technique isn't sound.
Posted by: medulanet

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 02:58 AM

I guess its that its just an odd way to catch a kick. Now, its one thing to scoop a kick with the and formation to the inside or outside to use the kick's momentum to throw the it by you in order to strike your opponent. But to hold onto the leg to attack the leg or use it for a takedown in this manner is just not something I personally would feel comfortable with. Maybe if you have any video of using such a technique in sparring or with someone attacking hard using combinations we may better see how effective it can be.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 03:11 AM

We actually practise a particular drill to groove the deflection part of the sukui uke, so I use it a lot in sparring. Bearing in mind that full speed snaps are hard to catch, and that we specialise in snapping rather than pushing kicks - see the thread relating to "visible power" - I still manage to catch a leg here or there when my opponent has tired or is just sloppy in retraction. Not a major technique, but a useful one nonetheless. The deflection is however the main part, imho. Sometimes all you do is use it to help you deflect the kick further, as you have suggested Marcel. Sometimes however you maintain a hold...

I appreciate Ed that you're speaking from experience, but so am I. My experience has obviously been a little different from yours. For example, I haven't often caught a kick in the crook of my arm - but then again we seldom spar with high kicks. If my brother or some other student does one, the kick is usually retracted far too fast - even if I've stifled it (my big brother is a very good "snap" kicker, so I can't recall catching his kick ever - the best I've ever done is just bowl him over completely after stifling).

I don't know if I have full-contact video of a leg catch, although I probably do in fast, but lighter contact, sparring...
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 12:07 PM

I think one justification for the step back that has been overlooked is the simple fact that Goju was designed for close quarters.

A kick in close range is more commonly jammed or deflected with the feet/legs. If I am close to my opponent and he lifts a kick that I didn't manage to spot and jam then I need to move to evade.

By now I'm running on instinct and realisticly I'm likely only to move backwards. I regain control of the situation by grabbing the extended kick there-by controlling his balance and making him vulnerable to my own attack.
Posted by: harlan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 01:49 PM

If a noob may ask a question?

Is the predominant interpretation of this point of Sanseru (at 1.04 in Dan's video) a response to a kick?
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 04:03 PM

Quote:

If a noob may ask a question?

Is the predominant interpretation of this point of Sanseru (at 1.04 in Dan's video) a response to a kick?



I think it's one of the more common intpretations of the 'x block' or whatever type motion.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 06:58 PM

a long post and one im working through,

just an observation if one is kicked with gusto, from range the strategy of moving out of range and then back in is a good one.

of course so is moving in to jam, or moving off line to simply avoid with cover or deflection, or both

so there are different strategy's dependant on the situation.

If you do move out of the range and take a half kick, then I beleive the oppertunity does arrive for the leg to be trapped, I think that tactic has merit.

It simply isn't a focus for me as people tend not to attack in reality, in this manner outside of the good old swinging kick, which is usually performed at closer range, or indeed when someone is grounded. (along with the stomp)

Interesting technical chat.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 08:28 PM

here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTCXhanxzk

I think you'll see most catches similar to what I was describing.


so back to the kata, let's say you wanted to interpret that segment of sanseiru with the above in mind. If you are imagining that kind of catch, there is no real need for the scoop hand-form, is there. Does that mean your application must be wrong? not if you find that it works, but the real possibility exists that the kata is not exactly the same as the person who 'originally' composed it. and since application was not passed down along with the solo movement (otherwise there wouldn't be any discussion/disagreement or need for interpretation), then all bets are off and kata is maleable to your sensabilities and experience.


so which do you go with? is the kata infalible, or is the success of the application more important?
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 09:31 PM

Quote:

people tend not to attack in reality, in this manner outside of the good old swinging kick, which is usually performed at closer range, or indeed when someone is grounded. (along with the stomp)



I disagree - some sort of pushing or swinging front kick is a real possibility. The swinging Muay Thai "mawashi" kick kick is far more sports-oriented than most people imagine. Regardless, either of these kicks can be caught after the momentum is exhausted using a sukui movement.

The close distance is not an issue - you need to be close to grab. My example in the video was highly formal, following the literal full step of the kata. It is important to note that while the kata takes a full step back, I have always maintained that this probably indicates a smaller move back in reality. If you look around this forum or my blog, you will note my frequent reference to the kata making moves "larger" for practice. So when I have applied this in sparring, my right foot has generally already been back and has shuffled slightly further back - sometimes only by a foot or so more. I see this as entirely consistent with the formal kata move, in the same way as I see the formal hiki uke consistent with the abbreviation I apply here against a jab:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm2f66OkUOM.

I did a search on Youtube last night and found stacks of videos of people getting their leg caught with a sukui uke. Consider this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fj4Z_ITs8A at about 0:06 and 0:09.

Note both moved away from an attack before grabbing (they sure as heck didn't move into the kick as it was accelerating). The second instance involves pretty much the application as I would do it, while the first is on the opposite leg. The second doesn't just control the knee and push it sideways: the "leg catcher" goes further to do a more elaborate throw.

Suffice it to say, they all had evasion preceding the kick - even if it was just a slight move back.

Here's another Youtube example of "karate" sparring (more appropriately kickboxing, as the author will agree).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BMR5VoXU4w

Note at about 0:03 the backwards evasion. Again - it needn't be a full step - I take that as a given in any kata "step". In this case you will note the sukui is immediately transferred to the forearm (easily done with the sukui handshape and - as Ed suggested - more suitable when the kick is higher (if you lift the scooping hand you'll realise the kick must drop into the crook of your forearm). In fact, if you look at how I was taught to do sanseiru Ed , you'll note that immediately after the grab the hands are raised so that precisely this should happen: see this video at 0:24-25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we_XyFTunu8. I accept that this is contrary to my video of the catch and my earlier comments. We can all learn something here.

In relation to the above karate/kickboxing video, you'll notice another leg catch at about 0:10 without any movement, but this is a very weak mawashi geri that should never have been thrown and was not retracted.

However another evade with a sukui occurs at 0:39 - note the grip with the sukui uke is quite evident at 0:40-41. Had it been slightly higher he would have transferred it to the crook of his arm. Again, he sure as heck isn't trying to grab the kick as it is accelerating!

I believe that a large reason for the imprecise grabbing in this particular video is due to the fact that they are gloved. A reason why the evasion is less pronounced than, say, what I might use, is that the kicks aren't full power (with no disrespect to the participants, who I know had been sparring for 2 hours already).

And regarding your comment Zach, since I was taught the move in the kata as a 1-2 (not simultaneous) I have never applied it as an "x" block (although I do one later on in the shiko application). If your hands move simultaneously into an "x" position, then I think an "x" block is an appropriate bunkai.

In the end, the kata move does, on the face of it, seem inconsistent with the application insofar as the sukui uke occurs just as you're stepping into your opponent. This prompted my somewhat technical and literal analysis. At the end of it all, I'm satisfied that the kata move is a compromise (or "layer", as Shonuff would put it) and that the gross movement sufficiently encapsulates and grooves the sukui application (however you do it - ie. with hand or transferred to forearm). Furthermore it allows other applications as well.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/19/08 11:01 PM

Quote:



And regarding your comment Zach, since I was taught the move in the kata as a 1-2 (not simultaneous) I have never applied it as an "x" block (although I do one later on in the shiko application). If your hands move simultaneously into an "x" position, then I think an "x" block is an appropriate bunkai.




I was calling it that because I don't know the Japanese name lol, I perform it in solo kata about the way you do.

While I was confused about which application we were talking about initially, this particular one is about what I learned for that technique as well. I just think that it can work moving forward.

That said, minus the shiko-takedown type deal and the very ending technique sanseiryu is not a strong kata for me application wise.

I personally don't like leg catch stuff all that much period, it may be a symptom of the fact that no one I train, drill, or spar with kicks a whole lot or very high lol, I don't know.

I think it's a perfectly valid application but I have to side with Jim that it's something pretty low on the list of things i'd focus on.
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/20/08 04:23 AM

Im with you on this Dan,

my minor 'gripe' (and not specifically with you as I see your group streets ahead of most), is centered around the nature (set up and delivery) and range of attacks shown in Bunkai practice, to much form is often shown.

anyhow lets move on as your application is valid, and it contains good lessons.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/20/08 04:55 AM

Fair enough Jim.

I'm not troubled by formal presentation, since I'm aware that it is just a dissection for technical analysis. Most dynamic movements can't be converted into static ones without compromise, so I'm comfortable with formal moves being used for discussion purposes. I think my formal demonstration might have been misunderstood as my means of practising bunkai for this move (and others). I have never practised this application in an "ippon kumite" setting (I never even thought to in all these years). But to illustrate what otherwise only happens in a mad skirmish is bascially impossible, hence I fall back to the formal kata moves.

BTW - send me a PM when you've gone through my comments on those documents.
Posted by: dandjurdjevic

Re: Reversing embusen for kata bunkai - 06/20/08 06:51 AM

Hey Ed

In case I didn't make it clear, I think the video you posted shows a catch which I think is quite compatible with the kata application (ie. the scoop feeds into the "crook of elbow hold").

If you perform the technique slightly to one side it can be used to catch a swinging Muay Thai style kick. You will note that (as I mentioned) the kata raises the scooping hand and lifts it to one side (as if to place in the crook of the arm).

Your video has made me realise that the kick might be caught while you are completely stationary - having received a blow which has slipped off up from your thigh in the manner demonstrated. In other words, an evasion isn't always inherent in a catch.

Having said that, the tactic is very Muay Thai/MMA and is not my preferred way of dealing with those types of kicks, but it works so I won't knock it.

Thanks for posting that video - it was very informative.