What is Kata/Karate Missing?

Posted by: Victor Smith

What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 08:25 PM

Go back 100 years and what do you think is the best guess of the number of Okinawan adults training in karate? 100, 200? Hardly more than that.

Now jump 100 years and there are what 30,000,000 people practicing karate (loosely defined or perhaps more accurately asian martial arts)?

What do you think, unless you’re practicing a style directly linked to Okinawa, the chances are your practice has to do with what they were doing 100 years ago?

But as the world turns we’re constantly challenged what karate is missing, what it’s weaknesses are, what it need to add to work.

From my studies the potential of an Okinawan system of karate is almost limitless, and a lot of a definition Patrick McCarthy once translated for Kara, not empty but infinite as the infinity of space, and in turn not Chinese Hand, or Empty Hand but Infinite Hand resonates with what I continue to see.

Now how much of a systems potential is addressed by instructor/student depends on their focus. Many systems potentials are likely severely constrained, as opposed to their potential. But infinte is a very slippery concept. No matter how much you do, no matter how hard you try, there will always be an infinite number of things you’re not doing.

So take a generic Okinawan karate system of study. Old style, largely kata interspaced with kata applications. Developed on Okinawa, a mostly quiet place, not really one where hand to hand combat was needed, and in turn only a handful of people before 100 years ago even had the chance to learn at that time.

In fact Okinawa’s Sumo tradition, sport standing grappling, was part of the lay of the land. There was no reason to see that going to the ground as a focus of combat was interwoven into their arts. Of course this is just a high level abstraction, there are techniques for example in Kusanku Kata or Seipai Kata where grounding the opponent to finish them are clearly the focus.

Time passes, and today’s competitive drive for BJJ, or MMA seem to show holes in karate’s potential. Of course there have been karate-ka who have beaten BJJ for example, the rule that it is the person not the art is always true and too often forgotten.

Looking at the Okinawan karate, with kata’s core existence, it is often overlooked that there were always additional training drills and practices not found in kata but still a strong part of the Okinawan tradition. How they were explored varies from instructor to instructor.

How much an instructor can do with the art is not just their wish, but is really controlled by the student and how much effort and ability they evidence.

In those long gone year, the focus was the instructor, not style or group. When a student was sufficiently advanced they often shared students with each other, to develop the student and likely to gain new knowledge through their efforts. Their arts weren’t fixed as much as they were variable to the needs of their times.

If any system is missing a variety of training to the outside observer it may well look like a weakness. Follow that to today, the idea karate training cannot cope with the experienced grappler, hence grappling must be added to the karate mix.

I have no brook with anyone’s choices in their arts development, that is individual choice, but let’s consider is that really necessary?

Very rarely do many really consider what a system of training means. I’d suggest it is first a basic way of training to build simple skills, a more advanced way of training (IMO Kata) and then other layers of training to develop special skills, application potential study (not limited to the current idea of what bunkai is, a answer or two for a movement).

A balance of hand and foot techniques, methods of moving, methods of imparting impact and leverage into an opponent. And a means to move those skills into layers of advanced usage.

But does that system of study handle advanced BJJ grapplers? On the surface no, it was not a grappling art on the surface. All claims withstanding, if kata for example have ground fighting applications if you can’t produce Okinawan instructors showing it in their training, it doesn’t exist that it can be acknowledged (either historic or current).

Of course that does not preclude individual effort to make that so, and if it works, fine, but to suggest historical relevance, show me an Okinwan or make a different agument.

Is the missing key, grappling?

Look in the past 100 year there have been huge numbers who’ve trained in grappling before the current trends. There are likely huge numbers who’ve also played footlball. All of which touch those grappling and takedown skills.

Where are the statistics, not homilies like ‘all fights end on the ground’, to prove that is truly relevant for defense? I haven’t seen anything that makes a case from what actually occurs.

But is an art lacking if it doesn’t address that style of attack?

Even more, is that the right type of attack, or should we find something more relevant than what is showing up on TV? Perhaps knife attacks where I find little reason that I want to grapple with someone holding a knife? Perhaps gun attacks, ditto. Perhaps Mike Tyson is the attack to fear, or current news article of the day, not wishing to pick on Mike (I’m too smart for that).

The missing key for karate, in all its varieties, isn’t add grappling, but tactical thinking.

I’m walking down the street, someone rushes out of the bar and begins attacking towards my legs to cut me down. Tactics simple, “Turn to the Rear and Run Like Hell”. Worked for the American Army in the battle of Cowpens in SC in the Revolutionary War, it decimated the British and tactically, with variation for empty hand defense, it can work against many attacks, even ground fighters.

For example why do you want to fight them. First level of analysis, evasion is more sensible than fighting. Fighting only has 3 basic outcomes:
1. You Win beating them up
2. You Lose them beating you up
3. Both of you beat up each other – regardless of whether you call it a win or lose

Life is not a game. If you win and break them, their family can sue your butt and you can end up in jail for a long time.

So evasion has it’s uses.

Likewise if they start one type of attack, but then choose to pursue you they’re no longer practicing their art, but they’re running in pursuit. That leaves other options, such as a snap turn and their throat tries to run through your spear hand. You’ve broken their advantage.

Just a few examples.

All training is about force multiplication. You train in an art to develop skill to more effectively use techniques. Striking, kicking or whatever. In that context grappling is certainly a major force multiplier, your taking the opponent to the ground can limit their movements and increase the force you impart into them.

Still for realistic defense is grappling wise? I train my advancing students in advanced force multiplication, placing something in their hand and then moving it through an opponents face, as one example as well as locks, throws, takedowns all assisted in such manner.

So again is ground technique what is really needed, or is it other options that ground technique does not address.

Depending on how you frame your answer you will make choices.

I am firm in my understanding that stronger tactical use of karate is all that is needed and perhaps a small force multiplier, a sock with a roll of nickels in it, or a key chain, or a can.

In fact one of the Okinawan masters gave an extremely sound answer how to handle a group of ‘toughs’ moving in your direction after dark falls. 1. Hide so they don’t see you. 2. after they pass follow them discretely 3. if they try to threaten anyone 4. blast into them from behind when they’re not looking.

Why does anyone really believe karate was really designed to face attackers before them? IMO it’s a nice story for beginners. Tactically karate is great when striking someone who’s not looking.

Tactics how to use what you have is IMO the most important study.

Seek out what you feel you have to, that is the oldest tradition. But if you don’t follow that path your art is in no way lesser.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 09:18 PM

Very interesting post, Victor. Many parallels to our recent conversation in PA!

Quote:

Now how much of a systems potential is addressed by instructor/student depends on their focus. Many systems potentials are likely severely constrained, as opposed to their potential. But infinte is a very slippery concept. No matter how much you do, no matter how hard you try, there will always be an infinite number of things you’re not doing.




IMHO, this very complexity makes a reasonable case for cross-training. Picking away at one art for non-focus attributes can gain you similar technical considerations, but if the concept you are searching for is a focus of another art, it would be expedient to simply study the other art, right?

Quote:

But does that system of study handle advanced BJJ grapplers? On the surface no, it was not a grappling art on the surface. All claims withstanding, if kata for example have ground fighting applications if you can’t produce Okinawan instructors showing it in their training, it doesn’t exist that it can be acknowledged (either historic or current).

Of course that does not preclude individual effort to make that so, and if it works, fine, but to suggest historical relevance, show me an Okinwan or make a different agument.




My admittedly limited research has come to the same conclusion.

Quote:

Where are the statistics, not homilies like ‘all fights end on the ground’, to prove that is truly relevant for defense? I haven’t seen anything that makes a case from what actually occurs.




http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=6#Post15970676

Quote:

Why does anyone really believe karate was really designed to face attackers before them? IMO it’s a nice story for beginners. Tactically karate is great when striking someone who’s not looking.




I agree with that 100%. And not just for karate, either. BJJ/MMA has a strong focus to "take the back" if possible, as well. Much of my stand-up sparring is predicated on getting behind, or to the "blind-side" of the opponent.
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 10:03 PM

Thanks Matt,

I had you in mind while I was writing this.

It's never a simple answer. We all will follow whatever path we feel is right, but the larger study of tactics becomes impossible to address. It truly is one of the vast internet conversation stopers.

Tactically any art, any technique should be able to defeat any other technqiue. I'm reading 'Turn Around and Runn Like Hell' by Joseph Cummings, now brilliant commanders throughout history used inspired unconvenetial military strategies that worked.

Sure if you're going into the ground against a grappler, you might well be handiapped if you play by his rules.

Fortunately the big rule book of karate I received when I got my black belt is nothing but blank pages. I have no rules, recognize none buy my personal choice what I will do.

I have a solid ground tradition in my own studies, but not the manner which the current discussions follow. Sounder to keep it private, a surprise perhaps.
Posted by: harlan

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 10:22 PM

You know, Victor. I'm a beginner, but when I look at examples of 'sparring' that I see...what comes to mind to me...is that I don't 'see karate' in sparring. It's hard to explain, but from my admittedly limited understanding, to me there is a 'disconnect' between this type of exercise, and what we practice. From what people point to as a fundamental way to 'test' their karate, and my understanding of 'fighting'...which has a totally different sense of time and strategy.

If it isn't breaking any rules (??), I'd like to post some outtakes of a very good article from this month's Classical Fighting Arts.

****************************************

A Karate Odyssey: An Interview with Sensei Pat Nakata (Classical Fighting Arts, Vol 2, No. 13)

By Graham Noble and Charles C. Goodin

GN: Returning to your first visit, you had already trained in Wado-Ryu in Japan. What differences did you find in Okinawan Shorin-Ryu, for example in technique?

PN: Chibana Chosin’s Shorin-Ryu karate was a totally different mind set than that of Ohtsuka Sensei’s Wado-Ryu karate. Wado-Ryu karate was sports karate. Chibana Sensei’s karate was based upon ippon kowashi no waza (One technique to destroy the opponent).

Chibana Sensei’s kata were power based with kime on practically all the techniques, thus Chibana Sensei’s kata were more staccato. Chibana Sensei’s kata had a count for each movement, whereas Ohtsuka Sensei’s kata were combinations for most counts.

Ohtsuka Sensei’s blocks were deflections. So in most of Ohtsuka Sensei’s kata where there were blocks, they were part of a block/punch combination. On the other hand, Chibana Sensei emphasized ippon kowashi (to destroy with one blow) even on the blocks.

GN: So Chibana Sensei did not teach the kihon practice as we know it from Japanese karate – i.e. the going up and down the dojo doing many repetitions of oi-zuki, gyaku-zuki, and the different kicks and blocks?

PN: Chibana Sensei’s kata training was kihon training. Each technique in the kata is a kihon technique. The kata is a combination of kihon techniques. The kata allow one to flow from one technique to another. If we were to do each basic ten times, Chibana Sensei would rather have us do the kata ten times.

GN: Was there much prearranged (“one step” etc.) kumite in the training sessions?

PN: Chibana Sensei noted that from his observations, prearranged kumite (ippon kumite, yakusoku kumite, kihon kumite, etc.) developed an unrealistic cooperation between the attacker and defender. The attacker developed an attack so the opponent could see the attack. The defender developed a sit and wait strategy. To Chibana Sensei, kata were more realistic combat training.

GN: In Japan you did a lot jiyu kumite training. What was the Shorin-Ryu take on jiyu kumite? Was it practiced much, or was practice more on prearranged kumite?

PN: Chibana Sensei never used the term ‘kumite”. In Shorin-Ryu there was no sparring. We fought and had shobu (matches).

GN: Did you miss the intense jiyu kumite practice of Japan?

PN: Yes and no. Yes, I missed the jiyu kumite practice of Japan, but we used to spar at the dojo with a match lasting about three to ten seconds. On off nights, I would visit other dojo to have matches. Okinawan karate-ka had no rules of engagement and everything was full contact.

GN: What form would those 3 to 10 second matches take?

PN: As soon as we started a match, I would walk straight into the opponent to force the opponent to do something. If I had no response from the opponent, I would deliver an attack.

I could use my Japanese karate techniques only after I modified them to match the Okinawan mentality. The Okinawans did not spar – they fought. For instance, in Japan you would deflect a punch or kick to counter. In Okinawa, they would block your punch or kick and try to destroy your arm or leg.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 11:15 PM

This statement strikes me as odd:

Quote:


I could use my Japanese karate techniques only after I modified them to match the Okinawan mentality. The Okinawans did not spar – they fought. For instance, in Japan you would deflect a punch or kick to counter. In Okinawa, they would block your punch or kick and try to destroy your arm or leg.




You think they were really trying to destroy eachother's limbs in the dojo?

Personally it sounds to me like they were, in fact sparring on some level, no matter how different from Japanese Jiyu-kumite it may have been.

I don't think sparring is a way to test your karate, it's just a tool for training certain things, depending on the type of engagement being done.

My opinion is that Karate is not "missing" anything, the value of training is largely subject to the person training in it, what they want out of it, and the quality of their teacher.

Everyone seems to think there is some unwritten rule that we are in a constant battle for which art is the "completest"...to me this line of thought is pointless.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 11:26 PM

Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 11:44 PM

Quote:

Sure if you're going into the ground against a grappler, you might well be handiapped if you play by his rules.




It all started when they turned martial arts into a politically correct sport. So when you meet or spar with a grappler, it is not polite to do a hammer fist onto the back of his neck when he shoots for your legs. And so you try to resist by grabbing for his shoulders or arms and all the while jamming your legs down and maintaining balance and not falling backwards. How long can you last? Sooner than later you will "go to the ground" and all your stand-up skills goes out the window.

If this is what we are talking about, then there is really no end to the kind of skills needed or needed to equip oneself with given the sheer multiplicity of martial skills martial artists can come up with and train for. If we are talking about in the days when martial art was to equip oneself with combat skills for mortal combat, then being very very very good in one set of skills would have sufficed or indeed had sufficient time to master. A good katana user or empty hand striker/kicker would not have needed or indeed saw the need to learn anything else, because regardless of who he met or fought, he would have just did what he was very good at and win the fight. There was no, yea, learn stand-up to meet other stand-ups and grappling to handle the odd grappler one might encounter while going to the market.

Therefore the emphasis then was weapons training and empty-handed fighting was a last resort. Now that the carrying of live weapons is under general restriction, empty-hand combat training is the norm or emphasized and so the arguments about "inadeguacy" or "short-comings" enter the discussion.

Certainly given the time and opportunity and masters willing to share a life-time of study, it can only be a plus to cross-train in as many ranges/systems of combat as one can, if not for personal development, then perhaps for bragging rights, because the chances these days of actually using those skills for survival are very low. I carried my "diary" and sometimes the 'kerambit' for well over 25/30 years and not once did I need to call on their services. Perhaps I was just born lucky. If I had met a grappler then out to do me harm, I wouldn't have acted in a politically correct manner. But then if you thought about it, why would the grappler wanted to grapple if he was out to do me serious harm, just so he could see me tap out in order to humiliate me and my stand-up skills infront of by-standing strangers?
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/29/08 11:53 PM

victor, with your use of the english langage im convinced that you could light me on fire and then go on to explain why it's ok and i would be convinced it was the right thing to do.

as always, very well put.
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 12:01 AM

Quote:

So if 'karaoke' means "songs without voice"




I thought 'karaoke' meant 'kara' = without/empty-of, and 'oke' = short for orchestra, and so karaoke means "singing without an orchestra"?
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 12:36 AM

you have the correct translation of the parts, but the wrong interpretation. karaoke refers to a music track absent of the voice track.

when someone sings TO karaoke, they are using their own voice and dubbing on top of the instrumental-only version (a song without the artists voice=karaoke).

a song with the artists voice removed is intended so anyone can replace it with their own voice.


see the potential double-meaning with making it 'Kara-te'? eg. Substituting the 'China' influence, with a Japanese one.



we all want a more profound meaning to the word 'kara', but before 1935...'kara' in this case was just the kanji for 'China'.

"Chinese influenced Okinawan hand" is 'Karate'.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 01:08 AM

Quote:


It all started when they turned martial arts into a politically correct sport. So when you meet or spar with a grappler, it is not polite to do a hammer fist onto the back of his neck when he shoots for your legs





This is complete horse$hit. It’s only unfair if the rules are unequal. What’s fair for you is fair for me. If you are allowed to hammerfist the back of a grapplers neck, he should be allowed to drop you on your head on the takedown and leave you paralyzed. Sound fair to you? Does to me!


Quote:


If I had met a grappler then out to do me harm, I wouldn't have acted in a politically correct manner. But then if you thought about it, why would the grappler wanted to grapple if he was out to do me serious harm, just so he could see me tap out in order to humiliate me and my stand-up skills infront of by-standing strangers?





Even MORE horse$hit! With all due respect, you are so far from having a clue, that light leaving from it would not reach you for several years.

Most “grapplers” that I know would be more interested in hearing your neck snap than your hands tap. I seriously thought that people didn’t live underneath rocks anymore. You have proven otherwise.


-John
Posted by: ButterflyPalm

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 04:28 AM

We are actually in agreement, NOT about the horse$hit.

My point (perhaps in a round-about way) was that in a real all out fight, it really doesn't matter whether one was a pure stand-up or pure grappler; one just do what one does very very very well and win the fight. The example of a katana user; he was not going to drop his weapon and grapple if he happens to fight a grappler and a grappler would not be stupid enough to "grapple" a swordsman. Therefore a grappler wouldn't just grapple (in the sporting sense) and go for a tap out only. That was my point. Perhaps you thought I was saying that a grappler was somehow inferior because he was limited to getting a tap out and left it at that. That was not what I was saying, quote, "...why would the grappler wanted to grapple if he was out to do me serious harm..." By "grapple" here I meant in the sporting sense.

So on the topic, whether anything was missing in karate kata or not was no longer at issue in those situations. It comes down to who was better in their chosen art as in a no rules situation everyone is equal. But when rules are introduced then it depends on who sets those rules. Take the example of the hammer fist to the back of the head. If a grappler (in a real fight) knows that there was a real danger of his neck being broken by a hammer fist, he would be very very careful (or perhaps even avoid) in shooting for the legs as an opening gambit. A stand-up fighter would do all he can to not "be taken to the ground"
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 06:08 AM

John,

With all due respect I would assume anyone attacking me would be trying to destroy me. So sure the attacking grappler might be trying to snap my neck, unfortunately we find the same 'art' within my Isshinryu, paralleling the same technique from my siliat studies.

Thus I may well be trying to 'break' their neck too. Leaving the question who is more efficient in the tacitical circumstances of the attack situation.

The larger thought is why let things get to that point. We don't live in a James Bond movie. Are there other choices to diffuse things do the situation doesn't get to that point were we can see who's the most efficient into slipping into an opening and then doing their thing.

Tactially the issue often isn't 'karate' doesn't have the tools to cope with the grappler, rather the focus of the 'karate' training program doesn't develop them appropriately.

I personally feel the use of a force multiplier is the tactical answer, just a qustion of which one and whose.

So tactically I will never fight you, but I might become your 'friend' and when you're not looking....... <GRIN>
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 06:11 AM

Mark,

I would never light you on fire, I'm not into barbque.

On the other hand I come from a family tradition of Pennsylvania Dutch butchers.......

ponder that one
Posted by: jude33

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 08:19 AM

Quote:

We are actually in agreement, NOT about the horse$hit.

My point (perhaps in a round-about way) was that in a real all out fight, it really doesn't matter whether one was a pure stand-up or pure grappler; one just do what one does very very very well and win the fight. The example of a katana user; he was not going to drop his weapon and grapple if he happens to fight a grappler and a grappler would not be stupid enough to "grapple" a swordsman. Therefore a grappler wouldn't just grapple (in the sporting sense) and go for a tap out only. That was my point. Perhaps you thought I was saying that a grappler was somehow inferior because he was limited to getting a tap out and left it at that. That was not what I was saying, quote, "...why would the grappler wanted to grapple if he was out to do me serious harm..." By "grapple" here I meant in the sporting sense.

So on the topic, whether anything was missing in karate kata or not was no longer at issue in those situations. It comes down to who was better in their chosen art as in a no rules situation everyone is equal. But when rules are introduced then it depends on who sets those rules. Take the example of the hammer fist to the back of the head. If a grappler (in a real fight) knows that there was a real danger of his neck being broken by a hammer fist, he would be very very careful (or perhaps even avoid) in shooting for the legs as an opening gambit. A stand-up fighter would do all he can to not "be taken to the ground"




From my studies

That to my mind is near on impossable to guarentee and should be catered for in training.



Put one on one fighting in to an arena of a slightly safer sport than complete no holds barred.
Observe these fights where they can do everything other than gouge or bite and a person might see that fighters adapt their learned techniques to cater for all the what if's or they lose in a painfull way.

Does early Ti go back to pankration? Seems that way.
I think early ti was more in line with early pankration, plus more than likely weapons of some description. Then later all the additions of other arts.
Evidence on this( not all taken from kata) I have some, but it isnt enough to prove beyond doubt, yet.
I think there is no longer strikers or grapplers there are fighters.
Just because striking and grappling parted company for sport or education or none use doesnt mean to say it is correct. It isnt, there are just fighters.

Karate void of wrestling. From what I can see at some point in the history of Okinawa there was poverty.There is also the facts of guns and the different life styles. This might reflect on adjusting karate to education. I think there was a difference to what the well heeled practiced and the common workers/ farmers/ peasents practiced.

Just quoting here from,
Hiroshi Kinjo.
I have no style, The karate do I practice is for Physical Education. This is from some one who trained with the and was around when the certain masters were still around.

I have reached the conclusion ti had its beggings in techniques created by humans to counter what could / would happen in a fight. With or with out weapons.
The most successfull techniques should have been kept. Although with mans history of making mistakes and then re making them I am not to sure.

As regards to an attacker striking when the opponents isnt looking or taking them from behind. I have read quite a few statements on this. I suppose that is fine , but what happens if for some reason it isnt succssfull?

If the Samurai at a certain time in their history had any influence on karate then I hope it still isnt there.
They would fight the oppostion one on one after ranting about their ancestors and lineage.
Lucky for them in one part of their history the weather was in their favour.

The swords man grappling part. There is any amount of study in to armed grappling.

Jude
Posted by: jude33

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 09:17 AM

Quote:

Tactially the issue often isn't 'karate' doesn't have the tools to cope with the grappler, rather the focus of the 'karate' training program doesn't develop them appropriately.





Hi Victor.

So in the main the people the 30,000,000 who practice karate will do it for education and more than likely a hobby.
Fine so certain karate training programmes cater for this.
But there are also people who believe the history of karate was the opposite and I suppose if people wish to explore the use of karate for this purpose then it might lead to conflict with people who see it as an education and more than likely a hobby.

Neither way of doing it is right or wrong, and I suppose debate leads to fact finding. It certainly has for me on this forum.

Just my thoughts.

Jude
Posted by: student_of_life

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 09:32 AM

"Put one on one fighting in to an arena of a slightly safer sport than complete no holds barred.
Observe these fights where they can do everything other than gouge or bite and a person might see that fighters adapt their learned techniques to cater for all the what if's or they lose in a painfull way."

early UFC did this, the guys with the most alive training did the best.

"Does early Ti go back to pankration? Seems that way."




"If the Samurai at a certain time in their history had any influence on karate then I hope it still isnt there.
They would fight the oppostion one on one after ranting about their ancestors and lineage.
Lucky for them in one part of their history the weather was in their favour. "

its written down somewhere (i don't have a clue where) that one of the tactics the samurai sed to kill a rival was to invite him over to dinner, and serve him food and drink. while they made there trips back and forth getting different courses you came in from behind and stabed him to death. this is considered fine by samurai standards because the victim was "stupid" enough to let his guard down.

generalizations become you jude.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 09:56 AM

ButterflyPalm wrote

Quote:

We are actually in agreement, NOT about the horse$hit.

My point (perhaps in a round-about way) was that in a real all out fight, it really doesn't matter whether one was a pure stand-up or pure grappler; one just do what one does very very very well and win the fight. The example of a katana user; he was not going to drop his weapon and grapple if he happens to fight a grappler and a grappler would not be stupid enough to "grapple" a swordsman. Therefore a grappler wouldn't just grapple (in the sporting sense) and go for a tap out only. That was my point. Perhaps you thought I was saying that a grappler was somehow inferior because he was limited to getting a tap out and left it at that. That was not what I was saying, quote, "...why would the grappler wanted to grapple if he was out to do me serious harm..." By "grapple" here I meant in the sporting sense.





Understood. I can only respond to the syntax used, which in that instance can be interpreted in different ways. In my opinion, the use of the term "politically correct sport" is not a good choice of words, if you understand where I'm coming from.


Quote:


Take the example of the hammer fist to the back of the head. If a grappler (in a real fight) knows that there was a real danger of his neck being broken by a hammer fist, he would be very very careful (or perhaps even avoid) in shooting for the legs as an opening gambit. A stand-up fighter would do all he can to not "be taken to the ground"





I do not disagree with this sentiment at all. I just wanted to be clear about where we stand on the rules issue, considering that so many, for so long and placed all "grapplers" in a box where they were thought of as inferior because of some imagined rules structure. This is definitely not the case.


Victor Smith wrote
Quote:

John,

With all due respect I would assume anyone attacking me would be trying to destroy me. So sure the attacking grappler might be trying to snap my neck, unfortunately we find the same 'art' within my Isshinryu, paralleling the same technique from my siliat studies. Thus I may well be trying to 'break' their neck too. Leaving the question who is more efficient in the tacitical circumstances of the attack situation





Yes Victor, I understand your point. I agree with the "end" though I may have differing opinions here with people on the "means" to that end.
.

Quote:


The larger thought is why let things get to that point. We don't live in a James Bond movie. Are there other choices to diffuse things do the situation doesn't get to that point were we can see who's the most efficient into slipping into an opening and then doing their thing.





Of course.


Quote:


So tactically I will never fight you, but I might become your 'friend' and when you're not looking....... <GRIN>





Keep your friends close and your enemies closer
Posted by: jude33

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 10:24 AM

Quote:

"Put one on one fighting in to an arena of a slightly safer sport than complete no holds barred.
Observe these fights where they can do everything other than gouge or bite and a person might see that fighters adapt their learned techniques to cater for all the what if's or they lose in a painfull way."

early UFC did this, the guys with the most alive training did the best.



Early UFC ? It s still done in 2008, rules anything other than no biting or gouging and no gloves. And a lot of progress and reality.

Quote:




"Does early Ti go back to pankration? Seems that way."







I take it you agree? ah I know it has been said before?
And I am generel-ising? And you want to make that clear!!
The difference is there was little/ no proof as I recall?
So if you agree and it was then why isnt ground fighting practiced in shotokan? Pankretion included ground fighting?
Or you disagree ?
Quote:


"If the Samurai at a certain time in their history had any influence on karate then I hope it still isnt there.
They would fight the oppostion one on one after ranting about their ancestors and lineage.
Lucky for them in one part of their history the weather was in their favour. "

its written down somewhere (i don't have a clue where) that one of the tactics the samurai sed to kill a rival was to invite him over to dinner, and serve him food and drink. while they made there trips back and forth getting different courses you came in from behind and stabed him to death. this is considered fine by samurai standards because the victim was "stupid" enough to let his guard down.

generalizations become you jude.




Speaking of letting guards down.

There would be easier methods than the one you stated if they were serve-ing food and drink. Not to clever your samuria? Why does the mentality of the people in your story have a ring of recent world history?
I wouldnt call that fine, I would in no way wish to achieve such a way of thinking.

One of the very few clever things samuria might have done and actualy got right was to train ground fighting. So why dont certain arts who base their way of thinking on budo train it?

Charging guns on horse back wouldnt be considered clever?

Might be worth your while to read the history (and the post I made) of the samuria a bit deeper.
One time in their history? If you google sunken boats, and samuria there might be the answer.
To be honest I think the only samuria influence on Okinawan karate was from the peichen. Which is another story of how the way certain strains of shotokan were trained might have come about.

Also keeping on topic,instead of kata, dance might have held certain techniques missing in modern karate

Jude
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 02:43 PM

Quote:


I take it you agree? ah I know it has been said before?
And I am generel-ising? And you want to make that clear!!
The difference is there was little/ no proof as I recall?
So if you agree and it was then why isnt ground fighting practiced in shotokan? Pankretion included ground fighting?
Or you disagree ?







Huh?

What does Pankration have to do with this? How on earth would Ti and Pankration be historically connected?

Posted by: jude33

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 02:53 PM







Huh?

What does Pankration have to do with this? How on earth would Ti and Pankration be historically connected?


Huh?



As usual an excellent piece of thought out analytical work on your behalf. How to use an icon.

Which part dont you agree with? Ah I see, you might know nothing of the history of Okinawa yet you say I am nuts?
By the way if you look on the karate thread there is some
sepai kata techniques you might want to attempt to pull to pieces.

Might keep you busy while I am working on a a historical connection between a certain Okinawan karate sensie , dog kung fu and the use of a kata that he is demonstrating while partly rolling about on the ground.
The katas by the way have been posted by Victor if you care to look.


Suppose you will doubt that as well!!


Jude


Jude
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 04:26 PM

Once again, I just asked you how Ti and Pankration are connected, how are they connected?

Why is it any time someone asks you to qualify something you insult them?

I didn't even say anything remotely nasty to you this time, yet you took the first opportunity to jump on my case.

I'm trying to be reasonable here and not get in a flame war like last time, but if you're going to post things like this I highly suggest you have an explanation beyond the constant snotty remarks.

So once again....in concise langauge, how are Ti and Pankration connected?

Here's a challenge for you, next time you post something like this, how about you post an actual link to a source, instead of just throwing wild stuff out there with no backing.

I don't understand why you expect anyone to take the stuff you post seriously when you're never willing to divulge any sources for your supposed "studies".

P.S.

this sounds interesting:
Quote:


Might keep you busy while I am working on a a historical connection between a certain Okinawan karate sensie , dog kung fu and the use of a kata that he is demonstrating while partly rolling about on the ground.
The katas by the way have been posted by Victor if you care to look.




Let us know when you actually have something beyond idle talk to back this stuff up.


Posted by: jude33

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 04:58 PM

Quote:



supposed "studies".
beyond idle talk to back this stuff up .






Adding the paragraph to the nuts icons after I had responded??

What ever Zach.


Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 05:10 PM

Most of my posts get edited multiple times genius, and I certainly don't play silly forums games like that.

Also bright boy, if you look at the time stamp you'll see that what you're describing wouldn't work, my sentence was quoted by you in your post!

I also still haven't heard anything about Pankration and Ti, so i'm gonna guess that like so many times before you're just gonna drop it and resort to attacking me instead.

Nice attempt at dodging the question though, why don't you just answer it?
Posted by: shoshinkan

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 05:15 PM

Zach, Jude stop digging at each other and chill out please,
Posted by: Victor Smith

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/30/08 07:02 PM

Jude,

If we can't really pin down what the 200 or so were doing as karate in 1900 or so, how do we have any idea what the 30,000,000 world wide practicing today are using (I'm just quoting a number I've seen, but it makes the point.)

Most of the discussions are based on hastly generalization that the only proof is what those writing may have experienced.

Some examples to ponder.

Shotokan is only for sport. Sounds good and a solid case can be made in many cases that may be true, but I've trained with a Shotokan instructor whose technique is truly to destroy any attack, whose bunkai is totally unknowable, and who's morality decries what he is doing is to destroy anyone. All of the "Shotokan is this..." 1000% incorrect.

That is always the rule, whatver you think something is, the reality is always larger.

Likewise all statements in general about karate are as equally true and false. They may match your experience and be true to you, but they hardly match reality. If one wnats to believe karate does not have techniques to fracture the the atlas and the axis vertebrae fine, but when sufficiently advanced in my students training I show just that with a 100% use of kata technique with no changes, but the eye sees a simpler answer until you experience it.

Or the generalization that Kata can or can't do this. When it is obvious kata, a central tool, is just one tool of study. A more complete study of a system includes effecting the application potential of kata technique, effecting one's movement dynamics to work within an attack to fit the application potential when you've set the attacker up for it, that there are layers of other knowlege and techniques that are not in kata but just a vital to the art, that tacitical study is even more important than technique ability, and I can go on.

Karate was not developed with lets develop ability xyz in a short period of time. It was just a study, a lifetime never ending study that moved with times eddies and flows.

BTW no art is really different they all breath in their practitioners.

Those on the path, while observant, if they are true practioniers have no energy to deride anyone. It's tactically dumb to say negative things about anyone. Instead train, study and work so if you need to your technique, strategy and tactics are superior.

As the arts expand into new spaces, they may take paths we are not in agreement with. But that's fine for we don't do that.

The real skill is to trust and work your art so nobody can get into your head and play mind games with your training.

If you choose to explore grappling, great. If you're exploring grappling because others say your art is weak, they've won getting control of your thinking.

This is why I prefer the potential definination of karate as infinite hand.

No matter what choices you make, you can't grasp infinity. In the end you have to work what you do grasp.

Your own set of rules in the reality that there are no rules and never have been.

In that the older Okinawan's won, they kept what they were doing so close today we have no true idea, just vibrations of their passing.

BTW, while I only acknowledge an aspect of what Okinwan's did if there are still Okinawan's who do it, I don't care what they did or do.

I only care about where I go.

May everone find their own strength, revel in it and stop spending time on circles.
Posted by: jude33

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/31/08 08:13 AM

Hi Victor.

If we can't really pin down what the 200 or so were doing as karate in 1900 or so, how do we have any idea what the 30,000,000 world wide practicing today are using (I'm just quoting a number I've seen, but it makes the point.)

That period of karate practice 1900 to 1904 I have some written history. But I take your point.

I have always taken your comments on board.
I have found evidence to back up what I guessed was the begginings of ti on okinawa. It is scant but it is there.
I see your points about training.


The Okinanwans might keep things to themselves. But their history in what ever form can be revealing.

Jude
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: What is Kata/Karate Missing? - 03/31/08 12:19 PM

Jude,

What did you guess about the beginnings of Ti on Okinawa?
What evidence have you found that supports your ideas?
Where did you find this evidence?