Posted by: Shonuff
Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 08:33 AM
Quick question, does anyone know where Kanku Sho came from?
And Bassai sho for that matter?
And Bassai sho for that matter?
Kanku Sho
Posted by: shoshinkan
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 08:43 AM
I haven't confirmed entirley but a voice tells me that Itosu Sensei created the sho versions of these kata, as opposed to the older dai versions.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 08:46 AM
Kanku Sho and Bassai Sho were both created by Itosu I had read.
But far more interesting, what do they mean!
Say the opening movements of Kanku Sho, 3 moroto uke positions and the high crossed fingers opening movement and turn/twisting hands behind of Bassai Sho?
Ben
But far more interesting, what do they mean!
Say the opening movements of Kanku Sho, 3 moroto uke positions and the high crossed fingers opening movement and turn/twisting hands behind of Bassai Sho? Ben
Posted by: medulanet
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 12:17 PM
Post a link to the version you are refering to please so we can discuss. Not every knows the Sho and Dai versions of classical kata.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 12:53 PM
Sho versus Dai is always an interesting discussion. There is no clear cut answers, you will find many variations.
Here are two sites that you might want to consider.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanku_dai
http://www.shoryukan.com/Topics/Extra/Articles/development.html
Kusanku (on the second site)
There is much debate on the actual creators of the shuri kata that is practiced today, although we do know that some of the forms actually existed in China and were brought to Okinawa. One of the most common kata in Shorin-Ryu is Kusanku, said to have been created by Sakugawa Satunushi based on the teachings of the Chinese military envoy who lived in Okinawa around 1715. There exists many versions of the form although they resemble the same pattern in performance. Kusanku Dai/Kushanku Dai is most associated most with the lineage of Sakugawa and Matsumura and is called Kanku Dai in Shotokan. In the Kyan-ha shorin styles, the kata Chatan Yara Kusanku is practiced which utilize the influences or techniques of that teacher. Kusanku Sho is very similar in pattern to Kusanku Dai and is believed to be created by Itosu Ankoh. A great educator, it possible that Itosu chose to modify Kusanku Dai and adding the Sho version for people with different learning styles. There exists another version, Shiho Kusanku, which Itosu is also credited in developing that is practiced by some Shito-Ryu groups.
Here are two sites that you might want to consider.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanku_dai
http://www.shoryukan.com/Topics/Extra/Articles/development.html
Kusanku (on the second site)
There is much debate on the actual creators of the shuri kata that is practiced today, although we do know that some of the forms actually existed in China and were brought to Okinawa. One of the most common kata in Shorin-Ryu is Kusanku, said to have been created by Sakugawa Satunushi based on the teachings of the Chinese military envoy who lived in Okinawa around 1715. There exists many versions of the form although they resemble the same pattern in performance. Kusanku Dai/Kushanku Dai is most associated most with the lineage of Sakugawa and Matsumura and is called Kanku Dai in Shotokan. In the Kyan-ha shorin styles, the kata Chatan Yara Kusanku is practiced which utilize the influences or techniques of that teacher. Kusanku Sho is very similar in pattern to Kusanku Dai and is believed to be created by Itosu Ankoh. A great educator, it possible that Itosu chose to modify Kusanku Dai and adding the Sho version for people with different learning styles. There exists another version, Shiho Kusanku, which Itosu is also credited in developing that is practiced by some Shito-Ryu groups.
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 02:33 PM
so, if this kata comes from china, do any chniease styles still pratice this form? or is it lost in in chinease time?
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 04:48 PM
Mark,
After following discussion and writing about Kusanku for years I have never seen one piece of evidence that Kusanku remaind a form in a Chinese system.
Now it may have been a private family art that was not preserved in public study. There have been many family arts in China, for one thing.
When confronted with Classical Okinawan Oral History of Karate, all you can do is accept it or not. personal choice.
On the whole I tend to accept all oral history as correct until there is contradictory evidence otherwise. But that doens't mean my acceptance means it's true, just that there are often more important matters to consider.
The varitions on Kusanku from Itosu versus Kyan/Tomari lineages are interesting. The Sho version in Itosu lineage also presents new possibilities.
After following discussion and writing about Kusanku for years I have never seen one piece of evidence that Kusanku remaind a form in a Chinese system.
Now it may have been a private family art that was not preserved in public study. There have been many family arts in China, for one thing.
When confronted with Classical Okinawan Oral History of Karate, all you can do is accept it or not. personal choice.
On the whole I tend to accept all oral history as correct until there is contradictory evidence otherwise. But that doens't mean my acceptance means it's true, just that there are often more important matters to consider.
The varitions on Kusanku from Itosu versus Kyan/Tomari lineages are interesting. The Sho version in Itosu lineage also presents new possibilities.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/29/08 07:36 PM
Kanku Sho - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHqjTmPGdNU
Bassai Sho - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=750_5WKCMKM&feature=related
I think Barad and Victor cottoned on to where my thoughts were running.
I've never had a mind to study these forms as they feel much less well put together than their Dai versions.
They give me the impression of tacking on a single forgotten/undeveloped idea to the system of the Dai kata and I wondered where they came from, why they were created and what they were for??
Looking at the opening of Kanku sho, I see it as an effective defense to a chain punch/blitz attack. step back and kick below while performing a simultaneous trap/strike over the top, practiced in all the necessary directions.
For Bassai Sho the only thing that springs to mind is some kind of wrist hold reversal into a lock that should continue on beyond the hands high position, possibly entered after an initial shoulder barge. After that I'm really not sure.
Part of me wants to work it out, part of me thinks it can't possibly be worth the effort. Barad, what do the Kissaki Kai say about these kata and their opening movements?
Bassai Sho - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=750_5WKCMKM&feature=related
I think Barad and Victor cottoned on to where my thoughts were running.
I've never had a mind to study these forms as they feel much less well put together than their Dai versions.
They give me the impression of tacking on a single forgotten/undeveloped idea to the system of the Dai kata and I wondered where they came from, why they were created and what they were for??
Looking at the opening of Kanku sho, I see it as an effective defense to a chain punch/blitz attack. step back and kick below while performing a simultaneous trap/strike over the top, practiced in all the necessary directions.
For Bassai Sho the only thing that springs to mind is some kind of wrist hold reversal into a lock that should continue on beyond the hands high position, possibly entered after an initial shoulder barge. After that I'm really not sure.
Part of me wants to work it out, part of me thinks it can't possibly be worth the effort. Barad, what do the Kissaki Kai say about these kata and their opening movements?
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/30/08 08:32 AM
Shonuff,
I have to say that although I practice both these kata and look for applications, I have never seen any specific Kanku Sho and Bassai Sho techniques shown by Vince Morris. That said they contain a lot of techniques common to or similar to other katas.
The three sliding/withdrawing morote uke positions at the start of Kanku Sho: I have seen two main applications for moroto uke in general. One is against a grab, locking the grabbing hand and striking to the neck with the forearm. Iain Abernethy shows something similar at Photo 6 here: http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart6.asp
The other application for moroto uke is against a same-side grab to wrist or forearm (expected to be followed by a punch). The response, that might perhaps be enhanced by sliding back although I usually slide forward, is to perform a kind of nikkyo movement as here: http://cs.stmarys.ca/~s_bramania/Nikkyo.php but using the forearm bone on the little finger side to cut into the grabbing wrist/arm.
I do not really buy the idea of blocking stomach punches using moroto uke whilst sliding backwards out of the way.
Bassai Sho: Enoeda in his kata book used to show the opening movement as sliding into cross legged stance blocking a face punch with crossed open hands that would not have hit him if he had not moved forward in the first place!
I tend to agree with you that it looks as if it is a wrist reversal against a two handed grab of the stacked hands in front in the yoi position of the kata. The hands are brought to the left side to weaken and extend the grabbing arm or make the grabber pull the other way against you. You then slide forward and reverse the grip the way he is pulling and make the crossed hands position. If they are still holding on, then this should have unbalanced them and twisted their arms. You then project them behind (the first turn in the kata) and apply the upwards arm lock shown in the kata, where you push up on their elbow joint with your left hand and secure their wrist palm up with your right hand causing enough pain to take their toes off the ground (this is the first slow bit in the kata). That's the theory anyway. Can I do it for real? I tend to think a good strike is best before trying any fancy locking!
As it happens, I saw virtually the same movement as the start of Bassai Sho in an aikido class years ago and it opened my eyes. It relies on people holding on to your hand as if to stop you drawing a bladed weapon worn on the left but nowadays people would probably let go after the unbalancing so the value of this application is moot.
Just my thoughts anyway...
Ben
I have to say that although I practice both these kata and look for applications, I have never seen any specific Kanku Sho and Bassai Sho techniques shown by Vince Morris. That said they contain a lot of techniques common to or similar to other katas.
The three sliding/withdrawing morote uke positions at the start of Kanku Sho: I have seen two main applications for moroto uke in general. One is against a grab, locking the grabbing hand and striking to the neck with the forearm. Iain Abernethy shows something similar at Photo 6 here: http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart6.asp
The other application for moroto uke is against a same-side grab to wrist or forearm (expected to be followed by a punch). The response, that might perhaps be enhanced by sliding back although I usually slide forward, is to perform a kind of nikkyo movement as here: http://cs.stmarys.ca/~s_bramania/Nikkyo.php but using the forearm bone on the little finger side to cut into the grabbing wrist/arm.
I do not really buy the idea of blocking stomach punches using moroto uke whilst sliding backwards out of the way.
Bassai Sho: Enoeda in his kata book used to show the opening movement as sliding into cross legged stance blocking a face punch with crossed open hands that would not have hit him if he had not moved forward in the first place!
I tend to agree with you that it looks as if it is a wrist reversal against a two handed grab of the stacked hands in front in the yoi position of the kata. The hands are brought to the left side to weaken and extend the grabbing arm or make the grabber pull the other way against you. You then slide forward and reverse the grip the way he is pulling and make the crossed hands position. If they are still holding on, then this should have unbalanced them and twisted their arms. You then project them behind (the first turn in the kata) and apply the upwards arm lock shown in the kata, where you push up on their elbow joint with your left hand and secure their wrist palm up with your right hand causing enough pain to take their toes off the ground (this is the first slow bit in the kata). That's the theory anyway. Can I do it for real? I tend to think a good strike is best before trying any fancy locking!
As it happens, I saw virtually the same movement as the start of Bassai Sho in an aikido class years ago and it opened my eyes. It relies on people holding on to your hand as if to stop you drawing a bladed weapon worn on the left but nowadays people would probably let go after the unbalancing so the value of this application is moot.
Just my thoughts anyway...
Ben
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/30/08 08:48 AM
Joe swift wrote this:
Hello all,
Great stuff, this Passai. Here's what I have been able to dig up in the past few years.
1. Concerning the Name/Origins of Passai
First of all, it is necessary to clear some things up about the meaning of Passai. Many state that the kata name means something along the lines of ?gto penetrate a fortress?h or some other such definition. It is important to realize, however, that such definitions come from so-called ateji, which is the use of Sino-Japanese ideograms (kanji) to preserve the pronunciation of a foreign word and to give it some semblance of meaning. In 1935, Funakoshi Gichin wrote in his Karatedo Kyohan that he had changed the old Sino-Okinawan kata names to nomenclature that would be more palatable to the Japanese, and it is here that we see the first written record of Passai (Bassai in Japanese) defined as "penetrating a fortress." Three years later, Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa, in Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon, blatantly state their use of ateji for kata names. Mabuni, although using different kanji than Funakoshi, expressed basically the same meaning.
Okinawan karate researcher Kinjo Akio, feels that the Passai kata is related to Leopard and Lion boxing forms. He feels that the first step in the kata, where one steps in, twists the body sideways and performs a strong strike/block with the closed fist is representative of Leopard boxing, whereas the use of the open hand and the stomping actions are more representative of Lion boxing. The name itself, Kinjo holds, actually means ?gLeopard-Lion,?h which would be pronounced Baoshi in Mandarin, Baassai in Fuzhou dialect and Pausai in Quanzhou dialect.
Other theories as to the meaning of the name Passai include "eight fortresses." Noted Okinawan karate historian Hokama Tetsuhiro has even hypothesized that it might represent a personal name. Murakami Katsumi, a direct student of such luminaries as Chibana Choshin (Shorinryu), Inoue Motokatsu (Ryukyu Kobujutsu), Kyoda Juhatsu (To'onryu) and many others, calls upon his knowledge of Chinese martial arts when searching for the possible roots of Passai. He says that some parts remind him of the Wuxing Quan (Five Elements Fist) form of Xingyi Quan.
2. Versions/Evolution
Of the Okinawan versions of Passai, a clear evolutionary link can be seen from the Matsumura no Passai to the Oyadomari no Passai and then onto the Passai Dai of Itosu. Out of these, the Matsumura version seems to have retained an essentially Chinese flavour, whereas the Oyadomari version is a more "Okinawanized" form, which was further modified by Itosu into the uniquely Okinawan modern version seen today.
Of the two Passai in Itosu's toudi, the Passai Dai is very similar to the Ishimine no Passai, believed to be passed down by Bushi Ishimine. The Sho version of Itosu's Passai is often described as being utilized against a staff wielding opponent, but Murakami believes that the principles found in this kata were utilized quite a bit in actual (unarmed) confrontations.
3. On Passai in Chibana Lineage Shorinryu
Itosu Anko taught 2 versions of Passai in his physical education version of "toudi" and these were designated as Dai and Sho.
Chibana Choshin was a direct student of Itosu, and also taught a Passai Dai and Sho.
However, these are different. What seems to have happened, is that Chibana had learned a third version of Passai from his relative Bushi Tawada, who was a direct student of Matsumura Sokon. According to direct Chibana student Murakami Katsumi, when Chibana showed this version (sometimes called the Tawada-ha Matsumura no Passai) to Itosu. Itosu had told him that he had never seen anyone perform that particular kata as well as Chibana, and that he should preserve it.
So what had happened, is that Chibana kept this Passai and called it Passai Dai, and relagated Itosu's Passai Dai to the position of Passai Sho. This left the "other" Passai Sho in limbo...
The "other Passai Sho" is none other than the so-called "Koryu Passai" or "Passai Gwa" that is practiced in some Chibana lineage sects of Shorin. I think that Miyahira had learned this particular version from Gusukuma Shinpan (another direct Itosu student) and this is where the Gusukuma lineage came into being in that tradition.
This is probably as clear as MUD, but I hope you can wade through it! Maybe the following will help:
Hello all,
Great stuff, this Passai. Here's what I have been able to dig up in the past few years.
1. Concerning the Name/Origins of Passai
First of all, it is necessary to clear some things up about the meaning of Passai. Many state that the kata name means something along the lines of ?gto penetrate a fortress?h or some other such definition. It is important to realize, however, that such definitions come from so-called ateji, which is the use of Sino-Japanese ideograms (kanji) to preserve the pronunciation of a foreign word and to give it some semblance of meaning. In 1935, Funakoshi Gichin wrote in his Karatedo Kyohan that he had changed the old Sino-Okinawan kata names to nomenclature that would be more palatable to the Japanese, and it is here that we see the first written record of Passai (Bassai in Japanese) defined as "penetrating a fortress." Three years later, Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa, in Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon, blatantly state their use of ateji for kata names. Mabuni, although using different kanji than Funakoshi, expressed basically the same meaning.
Okinawan karate researcher Kinjo Akio, feels that the Passai kata is related to Leopard and Lion boxing forms. He feels that the first step in the kata, where one steps in, twists the body sideways and performs a strong strike/block with the closed fist is representative of Leopard boxing, whereas the use of the open hand and the stomping actions are more representative of Lion boxing. The name itself, Kinjo holds, actually means ?gLeopard-Lion,?h which would be pronounced Baoshi in Mandarin, Baassai in Fuzhou dialect and Pausai in Quanzhou dialect.
Other theories as to the meaning of the name Passai include "eight fortresses." Noted Okinawan karate historian Hokama Tetsuhiro has even hypothesized that it might represent a personal name. Murakami Katsumi, a direct student of such luminaries as Chibana Choshin (Shorinryu), Inoue Motokatsu (Ryukyu Kobujutsu), Kyoda Juhatsu (To'onryu) and many others, calls upon his knowledge of Chinese martial arts when searching for the possible roots of Passai. He says that some parts remind him of the Wuxing Quan (Five Elements Fist) form of Xingyi Quan.
2. Versions/Evolution
Of the Okinawan versions of Passai, a clear evolutionary link can be seen from the Matsumura no Passai to the Oyadomari no Passai and then onto the Passai Dai of Itosu. Out of these, the Matsumura version seems to have retained an essentially Chinese flavour, whereas the Oyadomari version is a more "Okinawanized" form, which was further modified by Itosu into the uniquely Okinawan modern version seen today.
Of the two Passai in Itosu's toudi, the Passai Dai is very similar to the Ishimine no Passai, believed to be passed down by Bushi Ishimine. The Sho version of Itosu's Passai is often described as being utilized against a staff wielding opponent, but Murakami believes that the principles found in this kata were utilized quite a bit in actual (unarmed) confrontations.
3. On Passai in Chibana Lineage Shorinryu
Itosu Anko taught 2 versions of Passai in his physical education version of "toudi" and these were designated as Dai and Sho.
Chibana Choshin was a direct student of Itosu, and also taught a Passai Dai and Sho.
However, these are different. What seems to have happened, is that Chibana had learned a third version of Passai from his relative Bushi Tawada, who was a direct student of Matsumura Sokon. According to direct Chibana student Murakami Katsumi, when Chibana showed this version (sometimes called the Tawada-ha Matsumura no Passai) to Itosu. Itosu had told him that he had never seen anyone perform that particular kata as well as Chibana, and that he should preserve it.
So what had happened, is that Chibana kept this Passai and called it Passai Dai, and relagated Itosu's Passai Dai to the position of Passai Sho. This left the "other" Passai Sho in limbo...
The "other Passai Sho" is none other than the so-called "Koryu Passai" or "Passai Gwa" that is practiced in some Chibana lineage sects of Shorin. I think that Miyahira had learned this particular version from Gusukuma Shinpan (another direct Itosu student) and this is where the Gusukuma lineage came into being in that tradition.
This is probably as clear as MUD, but I hope you can wade through it! Maybe the following will help:
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/30/08 10:42 AM
thanks victor 
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/30/08 02:30 PM
Great work Barad, thanks for the info.
Is that the JKA standard app?
Quote:
I do not really buy the idea of blocking stomach punches using moroto uke whilst sliding backwards out of the way.
Is that the JKA standard app?
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/30/08 04:55 PM
one of the standard JKA apps, im ashamed to say is to use morote uke to block such a strong middle level punch that you use the "stacking" arm to re-enforce the blocking arm. bull shido bunkai central.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/31/08 06:51 AM
Student,
Have you ever tried asking the JKA instructor or senior students if they would ever use this application?
B.
Have you ever tried asking the JKA instructor or senior students if they would ever use this application?
B.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 01/31/08 06:55 AM
Shonuff,
You are welcome-it is all supposition and reverse engineering anyway until we find the magic bunkai book transported in time from from Ancient Okinawa...that said I have reasonable confidence in the stuff I have been shown in recent years because it often seems to work well.
Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on other techniques in those kata?
Vince Morris should be teaching seminars in Ilford in march or April (open to anyone, not just Kissaki members) if you are interested.
B.
You are welcome-it is all supposition and reverse engineering anyway until we find the magic bunkai book transported in time from from Ancient Okinawa...that said I have reasonable confidence in the stuff I have been shown in recent years because it often seems to work well.
Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on other techniques in those kata?
Vince Morris should be teaching seminars in Ilford in march or April (open to anyone, not just Kissaki members) if you are interested.
B.
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/01/08 05:39 PM
i don't train with the JKA people who told me bout this application anymore. but they did say that this was the purpose of this technique.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/02/08 05:43 AM
I would be very very interested! Please let me know how I can book tickets!
I will get back to you soon with my thoughts on the rest of the kata.
I will get back to you soon with my thoughts on the rest of the kata.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/04/08 08:34 AM
I will post something here as soon as I know (if it does not break forum rules.) He is usually in the Uk in March/April and definitely worth seeing IMO, very nice bloke as well.
ben
ben
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/06/08 07:25 PM
Sorry for the slow reply
I've had a look at the kata and here's what I think.
Kanku dai to me teaches a very evasive method of fighting, one which if done right has your opponent seeing air where you should be before veiwing the sky from their back.
The first half of Kanku dai uses lots of large motions suggesting that it deals with bigger heavier attacks, the second half the movements become smaller and tighter as though the fight has become more close quarter.
Kanku Sho seems to offer the reverse, starting small and tight and defending against shorter more balanced techniques and getting bigger and more expansive. I think this mirroring pattern might be in place to illustrate how and when to adjust between larger movements when both dai and sho are taken together. However there is a clear distinction between sections of the form so taken individually there seems to be no such lesson, but both long and short applications do seem to require an advancement in skill to apply, so perhaps the segments are mearly add-ons.
I tend to look at repeated sequences as having at least as many applications which fit the form's core principle as repetitions. Yet I'm somewhat stumped by possible apps for the twin handed circular movement that precedes the front kick (my brain is very tired). The wrist lock reversal (Nikkyo) is the obvious one, the simplest would be as a lead parry reverse hand grab to pull an attacker onto the kick but I'm stumped for a third.
Also the small manjin movements where the reverse hand comes off to the side in an ude uke position leave me with vague notions of application but nothing concrete, mostly due to the vulnerability of the head with the hands constantly passing so low.
I can certainly see how this form advances kanku dai by giving more techniques with which to fight against skilled opponents and sustain the combat in close quarters, but I don't feel it is a well constructed form as I see many applications that seem to be plonked down in the form completely out of context.
Either this kata was not well constructed or I'm missing something. I certainly don't feel this form is of any value taken out of context from kanku dai.
I've had a look at the kata and here's what I think.
Kanku dai to me teaches a very evasive method of fighting, one which if done right has your opponent seeing air where you should be before veiwing the sky from their back.
The first half of Kanku dai uses lots of large motions suggesting that it deals with bigger heavier attacks, the second half the movements become smaller and tighter as though the fight has become more close quarter.
Kanku Sho seems to offer the reverse, starting small and tight and defending against shorter more balanced techniques and getting bigger and more expansive. I think this mirroring pattern might be in place to illustrate how and when to adjust between larger movements when both dai and sho are taken together. However there is a clear distinction between sections of the form so taken individually there seems to be no such lesson, but both long and short applications do seem to require an advancement in skill to apply, so perhaps the segments are mearly add-ons.
I tend to look at repeated sequences as having at least as many applications which fit the form's core principle as repetitions. Yet I'm somewhat stumped by possible apps for the twin handed circular movement that precedes the front kick (my brain is very tired). The wrist lock reversal (Nikkyo) is the obvious one, the simplest would be as a lead parry reverse hand grab to pull an attacker onto the kick but I'm stumped for a third.
Also the small manjin movements where the reverse hand comes off to the side in an ude uke position leave me with vague notions of application but nothing concrete, mostly due to the vulnerability of the head with the hands constantly passing so low.
I can certainly see how this form advances kanku dai by giving more techniques with which to fight against skilled opponents and sustain the combat in close quarters, but I don't feel it is a well constructed form as I see many applications that seem to be plonked down in the form completely out of context.
Either this kata was not well constructed or I'm missing something. I certainly don't feel this form is of any value taken out of context from kanku dai.
Posted by: Victor Smith
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/06/08 10:12 PM
Sho,
You write "m somewhat stumped by possible apps for the twin handed circular movement that precedes the front kick (my brain is very tired). The wrist lock reversal (Nikkyo) is the obvious one, the simplest would be as a lead parry reverse hand grab to pull an attacker onto the kick but I'm stumped for a third."
In my Chinese studies with Ernest Rothrock I studied a Northern Shaolin form (my spelling, alas, Peng tzu Dune De Kuen) that incorporated that movement with a larger flow.
If your arm was grabbed it could be a counter, but it can also be used on an incoming limb (whether punch or grab) to lock the arm up the same way. Hard to describe in words.
Let's try though. The limb comes in, the right arm circles under that arm clockwise and at that same instant your left hand presses that arm down onto the top of your circling right arm, and then continue into the lock/control.
In fact it is found in the 2nd row of the Isshinryu Seisan Kata, but only to the extent that the hands cross for a split second.
Reviewing both forms side by side I also agree they're somewhat mirror images of each other as you describe.
IMO either one of them is enough for a lifetime of technique. Together they are exploring mirroring of execution, more for small benefits than technique range.
Of course I'm just an Isshinryu Kusanku practitioner, a slightly different dimension of time and space.
You write "m somewhat stumped by possible apps for the twin handed circular movement that precedes the front kick (my brain is very tired). The wrist lock reversal (Nikkyo) is the obvious one, the simplest would be as a lead parry reverse hand grab to pull an attacker onto the kick but I'm stumped for a third."
In my Chinese studies with Ernest Rothrock I studied a Northern Shaolin form (my spelling, alas, Peng tzu Dune De Kuen) that incorporated that movement with a larger flow.
If your arm was grabbed it could be a counter, but it can also be used on an incoming limb (whether punch or grab) to lock the arm up the same way. Hard to describe in words.
Let's try though. The limb comes in, the right arm circles under that arm clockwise and at that same instant your left hand presses that arm down onto the top of your circling right arm, and then continue into the lock/control.
In fact it is found in the 2nd row of the Isshinryu Seisan Kata, but only to the extent that the hands cross for a split second.
Reviewing both forms side by side I also agree they're somewhat mirror images of each other as you describe.
IMO either one of them is enough for a lifetime of technique. Together they are exploring mirroring of execution, more for small benefits than technique range.
Of course I'm just an Isshinryu Kusanku practitioner, a slightly different dimension of time and space.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/11/08 08:32 AM
Shonuff,
I agree the manji uke position with the hand in uchi uke at the side is a tough one to figure out. I have never seen a satisfactory explanation, assuming you discount the "gedan barai block against a front kick whilst blocking a punch with inside block/uchi uke."
The closest technique I can think of in other Shotokan kata is the open hand but otherwise identical position in Gojushiho Sho preceding the three open hand thrusts.
The equivalent position in Kanku Dai is the manji uke posture preceded by a front kick/knife hand strike other hand covering and followed by a deep and low open hand thrust behind (similar to same in Heian Godan and Bassai Dai) followed by a slow gedan barai type movement in "t-stance", heel slightly off the floor.
I always saw the manji uke at that point in Kanku Dai as an entering and throwing technique as you turn behind, to follow up the kick and strike, then an arm bar after the throw or if the throw partially fails.
It may be something similar in Kanku Sho. The preceding techniques are a front kick whilst locking a grabbing hand on your hip/uchi uke/double middle level punch. This could be a kick to unbalance then strikes and punches to the head (uchi uke as hair grab to position for the punches?), the head now being at middle level due to the lock and kick. the follow up throw begins as you cross your arms, as if you grabbed someone with left hand by the hair say and under the armpit with the right, using the hip and legs. The throw is performed as you turn.
The right hand then extends closed and not leaning forward (unlike Kanku Dai) and withdraws as you perform gedan barai in "t-stance". This could still represent the same thing, perhaps grabbing an arm and striking down with the hammer fist (gedan barai) on the back of the tricep (TW12 point) to effect an arm bar control.
Just my thoughts though and very hard to put into words...
B.
I agree the manji uke position with the hand in uchi uke at the side is a tough one to figure out. I have never seen a satisfactory explanation, assuming you discount the "gedan barai block against a front kick whilst blocking a punch with inside block/uchi uke."
The closest technique I can think of in other Shotokan kata is the open hand but otherwise identical position in Gojushiho Sho preceding the three open hand thrusts.
The equivalent position in Kanku Dai is the manji uke posture preceded by a front kick/knife hand strike other hand covering and followed by a deep and low open hand thrust behind (similar to same in Heian Godan and Bassai Dai) followed by a slow gedan barai type movement in "t-stance", heel slightly off the floor.
I always saw the manji uke at that point in Kanku Dai as an entering and throwing technique as you turn behind, to follow up the kick and strike, then an arm bar after the throw or if the throw partially fails.
It may be something similar in Kanku Sho. The preceding techniques are a front kick whilst locking a grabbing hand on your hip/uchi uke/double middle level punch. This could be a kick to unbalance then strikes and punches to the head (uchi uke as hair grab to position for the punches?), the head now being at middle level due to the lock and kick. the follow up throw begins as you cross your arms, as if you grabbed someone with left hand by the hair say and under the armpit with the right, using the hip and legs. The throw is performed as you turn.
The right hand then extends closed and not leaning forward (unlike Kanku Dai) and withdraws as you perform gedan barai in "t-stance". This could still represent the same thing, perhaps grabbing an arm and striking down with the hammer fist (gedan barai) on the back of the tricep (TW12 point) to effect an arm bar control.
Just my thoughts though and very hard to put into words...
B.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/11/08 08:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTdMFotGziY&feature=related
IMO poor Kanku Sho bunkai here!
...and Bassai Sho: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KkqZUss0fY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_nwHagWq4M&feature=related
The latter is by Kenneth Funakoshi, who performs the kata well IMO (except for thumbs sticking out in knifehand) but his applications are ludicrous-he seems to step in long and deep to block virtually every attack, none of which would have touched him if he had stayed where he was. His manji uke with downward block against a kick with other hand uselessly up in the air behind his head is a classic.
B.
IMO poor Kanku Sho bunkai here!
...and Bassai Sho: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KkqZUss0fY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_nwHagWq4M&feature=related
The latter is by Kenneth Funakoshi, who performs the kata well IMO (except for thumbs sticking out in knifehand) but his applications are ludicrous-he seems to step in long and deep to block virtually every attack, none of which would have touched him if he had stayed where he was. His manji uke with downward block against a kick with other hand uselessly up in the air behind his head is a classic.
B.
Posted by: bo-ken
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/11/08 10:27 AM
I have a few Kenneth Funakoshi dvd's and his performances are nice but his bunkai is lacking. I am not a fan of repeating blocks as an application.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/12/08 08:15 PM
Barad,
The throw application is a good one, I think it is the most convincing answer.
I think m biggest issue with this form is finding a core underlying guiding principle. I don't think every kata has one, but I'm more interested in those that do and Kanku dai definitely does so it would make sense for kankusho to follow suit, but I'm having trouble seeing it, which to me signals a mish mash of supplementary techniques rather than a kata that has anything serious to teach about fighting strategy or application of movement types.
Anymore thoughts on this form or it's apps.
P.S.
Ken Funakoshi does take application deeper in seminars but sadly he makes his students go through years of BS first
The throw application is a good one, I think it is the most convincing answer.
I think m biggest issue with this form is finding a core underlying guiding principle. I don't think every kata has one, but I'm more interested in those that do and Kanku dai definitely does so it would make sense for kankusho to follow suit, but I'm having trouble seeing it, which to me signals a mish mash of supplementary techniques rather than a kata that has anything serious to teach about fighting strategy or application of movement types.
Anymore thoughts on this form or it's apps.
P.S.
Ken Funakoshi does take application deeper in seminars but sadly he makes his students go through years of BS first
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/14/08 10:09 AM
Shonuff,
Actually I would be interested in other people's thoughts on Kanku or Bassai Sho techniques but it seems to have gone all quiet!
How about the double forearm wedge block behind after the side thrust kick in Bassai Sho? Old Shotokan has this as forcing a two handed grab apart followed by the double punches palm up. But I reckon it is pretty hard to force a two handed grab apart once it is firmly on (unless there is a large disparity in strength) and why bother anyway if you can hit when the grabber's hands are busy!
I tend to see the point where the forearms cross as being more important than the opening, as if attacking a single grabbing wrist/forearm with the inside of your own forearms to unbalance and distract, then the double punch.
There is also the feeling of mawashi uke in the technique, as you receive with the arm crossing and deflect as the arms come apart.
The same or similar techniques to the double forearm block at middle level (or whatever you call it) appear in Jion (middle after slow yoi position), Jiin (slow movement almost at the end in kiba dachi), Meikyo/Rohai (identical including double punch), Heian Nidan as the arms cross in the first position (also a possible uppercut and other things), Nijushiho (similar hand movements a few moves in just before age uke & age enpi)...
There are probably better applications if anyone has any views?
There are also the upper level crossed then slowly opened arms in Heian Yondan and Jion and Wankan (perhaps also in Goju kata?) if anyone has any thoughts...
B.
Actually I would be interested in other people's thoughts on Kanku or Bassai Sho techniques but it seems to have gone all quiet!
How about the double forearm wedge block behind after the side thrust kick in Bassai Sho? Old Shotokan has this as forcing a two handed grab apart followed by the double punches palm up. But I reckon it is pretty hard to force a two handed grab apart once it is firmly on (unless there is a large disparity in strength) and why bother anyway if you can hit when the grabber's hands are busy!
I tend to see the point where the forearms cross as being more important than the opening, as if attacking a single grabbing wrist/forearm with the inside of your own forearms to unbalance and distract, then the double punch.
There is also the feeling of mawashi uke in the technique, as you receive with the arm crossing and deflect as the arms come apart.
The same or similar techniques to the double forearm block at middle level (or whatever you call it) appear in Jion (middle after slow yoi position), Jiin (slow movement almost at the end in kiba dachi), Meikyo/Rohai (identical including double punch), Heian Nidan as the arms cross in the first position (also a possible uppercut and other things), Nijushiho (similar hand movements a few moves in just before age uke & age enpi)...
There are probably better applications if anyone has any views?
There are also the upper level crossed then slowly opened arms in Heian Yondan and Jion and Wankan (perhaps also in Goju kata?) if anyone has any thoughts...
B.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/18/08 09:43 AM
Barad,
I'm actually ok with this particular JKA application although with a slight variation.
The wedge block (as I call the twin middle block movement) is a pretty natural resonse to a double lapel grab and if you make it in time to stop them getting a grip on you (as opposed to just disrupting their balance by bending both arms outwards after they have hold of you) you still have to turn the block into something that takes advantage of their forward momentum, hence the double punch.
Other wedge blocks in back stance (such as Jion or H4) are performed at 45d off centre. I think this is significant in showing that they are dealing with someone who has hold of you by pulling your weight to your back corner to swing the attacker round throwing out their balance and opening them to the counter attack.
The thing to remember with double grabs is that they are not static. No one just holds you with both hands. Rather they push you or pull you or throw you etc, all of which disrupt your ability to strike them so the grab its self must be dealt with first and foremost (unless the attacker is stupid).
The Bassai Sho wedge block occurs as a shift back (i.e. kick, chamber and turn, shift back into stance while executing the block) which I think is trying to tell us to move and block so as not to be caught. Moving gets my chest out of reach, the block clears his arms and opens him up and the double strike shocks him and kills his momentum leaving me to finish with the sweep/strike combination that follows.
Bill Burgar gives a useful application of the wedge block from Gojushiho as a front stance movement, where he steps forward at 45d (maybe less) into a swing punch, where the lead arm wedge blocks inside the forearm of the punch and the reverse side jams the shoulder/upper arm. Its a general smothering of the punch, the idea being that depending on what happens next you move into one of the various mnemonic solutions from the same kata.
Here's an interesting flight of fancy against a single incoming limb:
perform the chamber (crossed wrists) as a sharp movement and open sharply. Application: parry from the outside at the incoming wrist, at the same time with the other hand strike into the inside of the elbow, causing the arm to collapse and pulling the attacker forward. This is the crossed wrist chamber. Complete the movement by opening slamming the hand at the elbow joint into the side of the head while pulling on the upper arm with the other hand.
Another thought on Bassai Sho:
The rising/lowering hands in back stance could be applied as scooping a kick from inside and stepping in at the same time. The reverse hand grabs any upper limb it can get to and then pulls down while the lead hand lifts the leg.
I think Bassai Sho is guided by the principle of slipping. Passing the opponents attack on the outside and taking control of him.
I'm a bit lost regarding the final sequence (cat stance moves).
Any thoughts?
I'm actually ok with this particular JKA application although with a slight variation.
The wedge block (as I call the twin middle block movement) is a pretty natural resonse to a double lapel grab and if you make it in time to stop them getting a grip on you (as opposed to just disrupting their balance by bending both arms outwards after they have hold of you) you still have to turn the block into something that takes advantage of their forward momentum, hence the double punch.
Other wedge blocks in back stance (such as Jion or H4) are performed at 45d off centre. I think this is significant in showing that they are dealing with someone who has hold of you by pulling your weight to your back corner to swing the attacker round throwing out their balance and opening them to the counter attack.
The thing to remember with double grabs is that they are not static. No one just holds you with both hands. Rather they push you or pull you or throw you etc, all of which disrupt your ability to strike them so the grab its self must be dealt with first and foremost (unless the attacker is stupid).
The Bassai Sho wedge block occurs as a shift back (i.e. kick, chamber and turn, shift back into stance while executing the block) which I think is trying to tell us to move and block so as not to be caught. Moving gets my chest out of reach, the block clears his arms and opens him up and the double strike shocks him and kills his momentum leaving me to finish with the sweep/strike combination that follows.
Bill Burgar gives a useful application of the wedge block from Gojushiho as a front stance movement, where he steps forward at 45d (maybe less) into a swing punch, where the lead arm wedge blocks inside the forearm of the punch and the reverse side jams the shoulder/upper arm. Its a general smothering of the punch, the idea being that depending on what happens next you move into one of the various mnemonic solutions from the same kata.
Here's an interesting flight of fancy against a single incoming limb:
perform the chamber (crossed wrists) as a sharp movement and open sharply. Application: parry from the outside at the incoming wrist, at the same time with the other hand strike into the inside of the elbow, causing the arm to collapse and pulling the attacker forward. This is the crossed wrist chamber. Complete the movement by opening slamming the hand at the elbow joint into the side of the head while pulling on the upper arm with the other hand.
Another thought on Bassai Sho:
The rising/lowering hands in back stance could be applied as scooping a kick from inside and stepping in at the same time. The reverse hand grabs any upper limb it can get to and then pulls down while the lead hand lifts the leg.
I think Bassai Sho is guided by the principle of slipping. Passing the opponents attack on the outside and taking control of him.
I'm a bit lost regarding the final sequence (cat stance moves).
Any thoughts?
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/19/08 08:21 AM
I think for the JKA app to work, you need to be near psychic to know it is coming. Since the follow up is likely a headbutt, I am not sure separating the grabbing arms is useful. We generally train on the basis that if someone grabs with both hands, then their primary weapons are out of the fight and they can be hit quite easily.
I think the upper level wedge block (or whatever) is different in application and I like the Burgar interpretation. We do something similar but with one arm jamming a punch and one arm striking the neck, not the shoulder or upper arm. The fast crossed hands high might also work as a flinch reaction against a headbutt.
Other options might be a strangle using jacket lapels or equivalent, as the hands come apart.
B.
I think the upper level wedge block (or whatever) is different in application and I like the Burgar interpretation. We do something similar but with one arm jamming a punch and one arm striking the neck, not the shoulder or upper arm. The fast crossed hands high might also work as a flinch reaction against a headbutt.
Other options might be a strangle using jacket lapels or equivalent, as the hands come apart.
B.
Posted by: Shonuff
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/23/08 05:13 PM
Quote:
I think for the JKA app to work, you need to be near psychic to know it is coming. Since the follow up is likely a headbutt, I am not sure separating the grabbing arms is useful. We generally train on the basis that if someone grabs with both hands, then their primary weapons are out of the fight and they can be hit quite easily.
How do you train to deal with a grab if it is being used as a shove or a throw?
I think the JKA app might be easier to apply from contact, where both parties are close and trying to gain control. Also starting from a raised passive gaurd position makes it a bit easier.
Quote:
Other options might be a strangle using jacket lapels or equivalent, as the hands come apart.
I can't remember Burgars rationale for appliying the wedge block in front stance instead of back stance.
I feel applications like this last choke are something beyond what I consider bunkai. I think part of the purpose of regularly training the forms for years on end is to allow the movements to sink inside us and appear when needed. Obviously this doesn't happen without a degree of serious application training and partner work, but the holistic effect of all that effort is that your basic ude uke does whatever the heck it needs to when the situation fits.
Posted by: Barad
Re: Kanku Sho - 02/25/08 12:39 PM
I think this is an interesting movement-and not one I am overly dogmatic about or sure of-so I will repost in the karate section to see what happens.
b.
b.